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#24042 - 05/02/09 09:19 PM does one deserve what one cannot protect?
rottingteeth Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 9
the masses exist for the individual's amusement. they are the individual's source of income and entertainment, there to be taken advantage of and toyed with.

if people are going to allow themselves to be stupid enough to fall for tricks and gimmicks, then they deserve it.

all preventable, if they only cared to prevent it...if they don't even try, then they obviously don't care whether or not they are metiphorically raped. to say they do is foolishness.



I ask you, does one deserve what one cannot protect?

(correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is a satanic point of view..)
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#24043 - 05/02/09 10:47 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: rottingteeth]
delusion Offline
pledge


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 77
Loc: hawaii
Well, it seems to me that whether you deserve it or not, if you can’t protect it then you will most likely lose it.

Deserve is one of those funny terms that is used all too often by theists when looking out into the world. “She was a whore and deserved It.”, “The guy was a creep anyway, he deserved it.” People condemning others like (instant) Karma cheerleaders and that’s pretty normal, unfortunately. People spend their days trying to absorb and make sense of all of the information that comes to them. It is more comforting to hold a firm belief if you justify it with some cosmic jury backing your damnations or praise.

As an exorcize I try to leave that term out of my thought processes. I don’t like to take part in blind judgments because I don’t agree with it philosophically. I recognize that things can have direct correlations to one another. For example, Heroin use and having a child taken by CPA; so as an observation I understand that one is likely to lead to the other. But to say something is deserved wreaks of Theistic judgment and I have no use for it.

I’d like to know what triggered this post more than anything. I noticed you used the term “they” several times was that rhetorical reasons or do you think that you are different somehow from the masses?

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#24046 - 05/02/09 11:28 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: rottingteeth]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
I'm not sure what point you are trying to convey here. You say that "if if people are going to allow themselves to be stupid enough to fall for tricks and gimmicks, then they deserve it." I would agree with that to a point. I am not sure if they would actually "deserve" it. That would ultimately depend upon the person you were asking. I would say that if people are going to be stupid enough to allow themselves to fall for tricks and gimmicks then that is all their fault. Furthermore, if I can somewhow benefit from their naivity, all the better.

What confuses me here is your question " does one deserve what one cannot protect?" That question is pretty vague. I have a girlfriend, I feel like I deserve her because I have worked to gain her love, affection and loyalty. Being that we are two seperate people and have two seperate lives I can't be around to protect her 24/7 (granted this girl is more than capable of taking care of herself). Assuming that one of these nights she were to be robbed, and me unable to stop it, or, protect her; would it logically follow that I don't deserve her?

Ultimately, my interpretation boils down to this: Many people deserve what they get, fewer get what they deserve.
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#24125 - 05/04/09 09:53 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: rottingteeth]
Saligia Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/03/09
Posts: 37
Loc: Manchester, England
I agree with delusion on this (hmm there's an odd line for you) in that the idea of deserving something or not deserving it seems somewhat moralistic.
If we take the notion that humanity is simply another animal then the concern with whether we deserve something or not should really be discarded. You take what you want from the world without being concerned about whether or not you deserve it and if somebody takes something from you (regardless of whether you were seeking to protect it or not) your natural inclination is to take it back from them and/or seek revenge.
To summarise, a lion doesn't question whether or not an antelope deserves to die so that the lion may eat, it simply seeks to satisfy it's own needs.

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#25869 - 06/20/09 11:52 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Saligia]
Ethophobia Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/18/09
Posts: 26
Loc: Texas
To do a bit of expanding, I would like to address the notion of "Us and Lions."

With humans, we seem to be constantly trying to grasp some kind of logic beyond that which we see. Obviously incapable of knowing what, if anything, lies beyond that great divide between our minds and the universe, we tend to think up stories to explain the things we cannot describe. Although we need food to eat, we generally have to do no killing in order to do so, hence cutting ourselves off from that very primal, and peaceful notion that "morals do not play in to survival."

How much does a person have that they really need? I could do without my cell, my TV, my bed, my dishes. Narrowing it down, the only thing I would really need is an able body and a weapon. The sad truth is that life is not like that for humans anymore. Not to sound like a sod, but we have become domesticated beasts. In order to see us at our prime, we would have to step outside of the confines of the masses. Realistically, hardly anyone does that anymore. When it comes to morals, I think humans tend to look more into "need vs. want." If you need something, like your life, and someone threatens to take it from you, a jury could say you were innocent for killing the other person. If you wanted the drugs in said person's pocket and killed them for it, how would a jury vote? How about if it were not drugs but a game boy, a pair of shoes, a gold necklace?

To tie this back to the OP, it seems a better path to direct the attention more to protection of something valuable, like a life, to something trivial, like a watch. Although it would seem stupid to an animal with a smaller brain, humans (unfortunately), can tell the difference. And unfortunately, once more, we have bigger brains. Even though philosophers have a hard time explaining how interrelated the mind and the brain actually are, none can refuse that there are times when they can act independent of each other, such as knee-jerk reactions processed by the brain, introspection and logic.

Even as a tribe, it has almost always been the rule that the family protects the individual. Even animals protect each other. The methods we use to protect what is ours may not seem obvious, but looking closer, it seems it all eventually boils down to what we can and cannot keep as ours. Watches, drugs, homes, lovers. Many animals protect others of their kind. Mutual protection. Is that any less than us employing police? I am not convinced..

//rambling

I will prepare for a social thrashing now. Incoming! \:\)
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#25871 - 06/21/09 02:32 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Ethophobia]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Quote:
How much does a person have that they really need? I could do without my cell, my TV, my bed, my dishes. Narrowing it down, the only thing I would really need is an able body and a weapon.

I doubt so, despite the able body and weapons you need your intelligence. In a war an able body and good weapon means nothing if you haven't got a plan. You'd be shot to pieces.

 Quote:
In order to see us at our prime, we would have to step outside of the confines of the masses.

Then what? Becoming consumed by nature because we lack natural tools like claws, bigger muscles..
We are at our prime, humans are animals who live in group. Everything you see around is a credit of human power. No animal in the history of the earth ever had such an impact as we have. If humanity dies out several millions of years later there can be still evidence found of our actions.



Edited by Dimitri (06/21/09 02:32 AM)
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#25875 - 06/21/09 06:21 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Dimitri]
Ethophobia Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/18/09
Posts: 26
Loc: Texas
[quote=Dimitri]
 Quote:
I doubt so, despite the able body and weapons you need your intelligence. In a war an able body and good weapon means nothing if you haven't got a plan. You'd be shot to pieces.


My body includes my brain. Despite the line drawn, I still include my ability to process information as a gift my body gives to me. Not to mention, survival does not indicate war. Placed in a war, or placed in total immersion of nature are two very different things at least, and especially, in this context. Even if you take life in general as a war, then you could never be considered to be without a plan, else in your perpective, that planless individual is just a walking bodybag. Your argument is invalid.


 Quote:
We are at our prime, humans are animals who live in group. Everything you see around is a credit of human power. No animal in the history of the earth ever had such an impact as we have. If humanity dies out several millions of years later there can be still evidence found of our actions.


If we humans now are at our prime, then I shudder to think what we will look like in the future. We are a poorly functioning regurgitation of nature. An accident. An aberrant cell group multiplying until the host can no longer accommodate. How can survival of the fittest occur when we have taken ourselves out of that loop? Just because in millions of years they can find stuff we did does not mean we are any more important. We can find evidence of things that lived before us. Fossils and fossil fuels for example. Does that mean that dinosaurs had reasoning minds?

Sure, we have an impact. So what? Anything with an ability to differentiate self from nature could do that. I think you are placing humanity on a pedestal.
_________________________
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#25883 - 06/21/09 09:44 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: rottingteeth]
Scarlett156 Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/20/09
Posts: 59
Loc: rural Eastern Colorado (USA)
Another topic on this board has the title "is murder wrong?"--this topic seems to address another so-called "sin", that of theft. (A better title might have been "is stealing wrong?" but of course that would not have prompted as much discussion.)

If we "prove" this hypothesis to its logical extreme we shortly find ourselves in the position of not being able to enjoy life or possessions at all. If we only "deserve" those things that we can adequately protect, then we deserve very little, as each of us has to sleep, eat, and use the bathroom at some point during every 24- to 48-hour period. I think/hope that we can all agree that a lifetime of jealously guarding one's possessions is not much of a lifetime.

 Quote:
if people are going to allow themselves to be stupid enough to fall for tricks and gimmicks, then they deserve it.

all preventable, if they only cared to prevent it...if they don't even try, then they obviously don't care whether or not they are metiphorically raped. to say they do is foolishness.


I used to hang around with some guys that most people would term "dedicated fuckups" who had--in spite of their youth--spent a goodly portion of their lives in jail or prison. The above statement sounds a lot like the kinds of things they would say to justify their constant stealing and scamming, to wit:

The family went on vacation so they deserved to have all their stuff ripped off.
The guy was asleep so he must have WANTED for us to steal his car.
That girl is wearing a tight skirt, so she is asking to be assaulted.

(etc)


If I could sum up in a few words the main difference between my values as a Satanist and the values prevalent to society as a whole right now, it would be to say that consideration of possible consequences and outcomes drives my actions more surely than any ethic.

That is to say, whether someone "deserves" his or her possessions is an ethical consideration that's completely beside the point if I need or want something that person has (which is hardly ever the case, let me hasten to add). If the potential consequences of my taking something from someone else by force, trickery, or extortion are more than I think I can deal with (arrest, court, jail, getting the crap beat out of me, getting shot, etc), then I leave the shit alone. I would rather "possess" a quiet life of relative liberty than any number of flat-screen TV sets and laptop computers.

 Quote:
I ask you, does one deserve what one cannot protect?

(correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is a satanic point of view..)


You are wrong. A satanist doesn't waste his time worrying about who "deserves" what.

I hope this helps to answer your question.

~~~ yours in Chaos, Scarlett
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"I can fling poo gooder than u"

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#25897 - 06/21/09 02:13 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Ethophobia]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Quote:
Even if you take life in general as a war, then you could never be considered to be without a plan, else in your perpective, that planless individual is just a walking bodybag. Your argument is invalid.

Not invalid, even when not in war you need to think. An able body only works at his best with a good brain to steer it. If not you as well might be a plant..

 Quote:
If we humans now are at our prime, then I shudder to think what we will look like in the future. We are a poorly functioning regurgitation of nature. An accident.

If "we" were accidents evolution might have erased us long time ago don't you think? Our genetic make-up proved far better then some animals.
 Quote:
How can survival of the fittest occur when we have taken ourselves out of that loop?

It was never taken out, survival of the fittest is still active.

 Quote:
Not to mention, survival does not indicate war.

Survival is war. If you want to survive you need to get a grip on you life, "battle" others to achieve certain goals. War is not always fought with physical weapons.


 Quote:
We can find evidence of things that lived before us. Fossils and fossil fuels for example. Does that mean that dinosaurs had reasoning minds?

Sure, we have an impact. So what? Anything with an ability to differentiate self from nature could do that. I think you are placing humanity on a pedestal.

Are you stupid? Fossils are a thing apart. Man's buildings and roads can be kept "complete" for millions of years. Ofcourse not in the state as they are now. But if several millions years later aliens land on this planet they might find pieces of glass, weird "layers" which can't be formed by nature itself or any natural process, formations which for nature are impossible to be formed,...

Ofcourse I'm setting humanity on a pedestal. In the 4.5 billion year of history on this planet we are the most influencial, most intelligent and most ultimate macro-scopic killer/predator alive.
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#25920 - 06/21/09 08:36 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Dimitri]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
In response to the above posters in general:

If humanity were reduced to living as we did in the Stone Age, our growth as a species would be pruned back to the root. I'm not talking about reproductive growth, but mental growth. Having to hunt, kill, dress, prepare and store food would take up at least 70% of our time, if not more. Especially if we would be reduced to single-family groups, not tribes, where there would be fewer hands to make short work of labor-intensive projects.

What I can't understand is this rampant desire among so many Satanists, to return to the halcyon days of "survival of the fittest". The very fact that we've been able to remove ourselves from the food chain speaks volumes of us as a species. Of our intellect and ability to factor in consequences of our actions when making decisions. Now, certainly our decisions regarding the planet as a whole have not been anything to be proud of, but in regards to playing out scenarios as a result of actions, to choose the one that works to our advantage the best, is what sets us apart. Our ignorance about the effect our species has had on the planet has, until recently, been total. With our current technology, and ever in the process of coming up with new ways to measure and problem-solve, we can better monitor our "footprint" on the Earth, and work to preserve what we have, as best we can.

At least until we can get Mars terraformed ;\).

The goal of humanity since Homo homo sapiens (yes, we are a subspecies of Homo sapiens in case you didn't know) came about, was to make our lives better. To be more comfortable, to ease pains, to have a full belly, to have a good place to defend against predators and stay out of the elements, things of that nature. In regards to the desire to meet those goals, nothing has really changed in the past 40,000 years, now has it.

Adding iPhones, cars and Costco-sized jars of mayonnaise does not remove our overall intelligence from us. Yes, without them we would be shell-shocked for a time, until we learned to adjust to not having them. Many would perish from the lack of food, clean water, and absence of medicines, but we would get ourselves sorted out, and work on once again inventing new ways to make our lives easier.
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#26099 - 06/24/09 02:42 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Nemesis]
delusion Offline
pledge


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 77
Loc: hawaii
 Quote:
What I can't understand is this rampant desire among so many Satanists, to return to the halcyon days of "survival of the fittest"

It seems to me that the connection has to do with the philosophy itself. Satanism, for me, is in part a practice in embracing the hard truths of life in order to achieve balance and perspective. It is easy for an individual to become stuck in a doom & gloom mindset when his core philosophy is so rich with it. One of the first books the "satanic community" at large will push on you is Might Is Right and for me it doesn't get much more primal than that.

I agree with you that "Satanists" often default back to a Mad Max outlook but I think that is programmed to some extent by the "satanic community" as a corner stone to the philosophy. Reference the Nine Satanic Statements; another mandatory part of the generalized satanic curriculum, and see that the language is very much in keeping with bold decision making.

Do you think this regression is a mark of the philosophy or the individuals who partake?

Delusion

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#26129 - 06/24/09 03:24 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: delusion]
hellbent666
Unregistered



I would have to say that it is just the philosophy at work. Most of the Satanists I've met, short of a few, were not capable of defending themselves let alone their property. Most being introverted book worms that have never been in a gym or trained to fight. The philosophy has a ton of limits and a ton of things that need to be interpreted by the individual. Not every Satanist can afford to be the pompous arrogant schmuck, although some try anyways, because they do not have the strength or the goods to back it up. Most of what I see from the satanic community is empty posturing, or social posturing which is slightly entertaining to watch at times ;\)
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#26149 - 06/24/09 07:21 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: ]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3934
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
I doubt you've ever actually met a Satanist in your life. Just because someone calls themselves a bottle doesn't mean they can actually hold water.

I've only met less than a handful myself(online or off). If someone doesn't have the goods, get results, and actually live it, they are nothing but posers.


Edited by Dan_Dread (06/24/09 07:24 PM)
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#26179 - 06/25/09 01:06 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Dan_Dread]
hellbent666
Unregistered



I used to think that only "true" Satanists hung out in "another" forum and that this forum was for the rejects. Then after some searching, listening, and lurking I found out that most of the members here actually have their heads screwed on straight, while a minor few, such as yourself, have no idea what some of the words and concepts mean in your precious little religion/title/philosophy. Please, do the forum a favor and go bring us the definition of "Elite", then do us a favor and extrapolate on how you are elite. I am going to play Socrates here for a second and say, "Please Enlighten Me." I already know you have an interesting challenge ahead of you. Simple right? Are you up to the challenge? Please keep in mind that Socrates often times made people into idiots by asking simple questions. I have higher hopes for your internet tough guy persona.
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#26181 - 06/25/09 01:14 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: ]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3934
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Do you buy into your own bullshit?

Does your sense of entitlement know no bounds?

But since I am my own favorite subject, I will indulge you \:\)

How am I elite? Lets see. financially successful..check. Good looking and physically gifted...check. Intelligent..in spades.
Working on ten years in a very happy relationship. Surrounded by people that absolutely adore me. I could really go on and on.


I am thinking you still live with your parents? \:\)
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