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#30478 - 10/13/09 04:37 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: rottingteeth]
ballbreaker Offline
member


Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 134
Loc: Toronto, Canada
 Originally Posted By: rottingteeth
the masses exist for the individual's amusement. they are the individual's source of income and entertainment, there to be taken advantage of and toyed with.


How godlike of you to articulate such a profound vision of "the masses", who must surely exist solely for the "individual's/i.e. your own" amusement.

I'm not sure if I should just say "there is no such thing as society" or what...I will suggest that the above quoted statement is typical pseudoSatanist nonsense (at least, I hope it's not indicative of the current state of Satanic thought).

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#86442 - 04/12/14 03:14 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: rottingteeth]
Ferox Offline
pledge


Registered: 12/19/13
Posts: 69
Loc: Adios!
Who decides what I deserve, you? I donít think so. Myriads of nincompoops chase the same goals, read the same books, watch the same movies, apply the same strategies (against each other)Ö, itís laughable. Preying upon scraps I throw away haha! Donít lose that appetite boys and girlsÖ, oink, oink.
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#86443 - 04/12/14 05:57 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Ferox]
334forwardspin Offline
member


Registered: 03/04/13
Posts: 509
Loc: Las Vegas,NV United States
What a person deserves, or does not deserve is an entirely subjective matter. Each person has their own standards for what makes a person deserve something. Sometimes, it may be a moral line of thinking 'if you punch me, you deserve to get punched', but depending on why they punched you, some may agree you deserved the punch in the first place. You may, or may not disagree with that. It may also be something based on 'you deserve it if you earn it'. This is usually the case in skill based roles or tests. You deserve the ability, if you attained it, the role if you showed that ability in a test, the win if you did better in that challenge, and the accomplishment status if your body of work reflects the skill.

However, it is also important to distinguish an idealistic view from a realistic one. In some cases, we have the power to enforce our will, and have what we feel is 'deserved' carried out. However, there are also times when this will not be the case.

Whether we feel that one does deserve what they can not protect or not, is irrelevant in the way the world works. If you can not protect something, you likely will not keep it. That's the problem with approaching the world too much by the basis of 'deserving', is that the world doesn't operate that way. I remember a case of a Norwegian diplomat imprisoned in the United Arab Emirates for 16 months for reporting a rape. By UAE law, 4 male witnesses must see a rape for it to constitute rape, and since that wasn't the case, she was prosecuted for extramarital sex.

Did she deserve what she got? In my view, not even close. However, that's how they do things. It would have been best to do some reading up on their customs before reporting it to the police. Believing you should be able to report the rape and have the perps punished doesn't mean it will happen. If it won't, there's no point, and if you get punished it's even worse.

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#86453 - 04/12/14 01:58 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: 334forwardspin]
Crake Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 34
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
Wow. I figure there would be Satanists on here who believed in and practised Black Magic, but I didn't think that Black Magic referred to Necromancy...

Anyway, interesting topic. Pretty cool it was revived, I suppose. It's a very generic question, but I'll try my best to answer it.

It's almost situational. Let's say I'm a hard worker who stays at work when needed, and goes in for over time work. I earn a lot of money because, well, I earn it - I deserve it. However, if I'm robbed, I lose some of that money, and have therefore failed to protect. Most people would agree that the robber does not deserve the money because he did not earn it.

Let's look at another situation. Let's say a MMA fighter wins a title by fluke, but realizes that when it is time for him to defend his new title, he will fail to protect it, and he will lose it. Most people would agree here that the MMA fighter in question does not deserve the title.

I suppose the answer to the question depends on fairness. However, that's another thing to discuss on its own.

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#86454 - 04/12/14 03:34 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Crake]
theharkonnen Offline
member


Registered: 12/03/13
Posts: 218
Well, if a bank takes one's money as they did in Cyprus, does that mean one failed to protect what is theirs? Is that not robbery? However, one cannot sue a bank either for doing this, since the lawyers of the bank will always win. So, is this failure to protect or is it being too screwed to be able to do anything.

But in this case, what can one do, other than take all their money out and store it somewhere other than a bank. But then comes the question that if one robs it from your house and you shoot them, will the law not persecute you for murder? Hence, why I prefer gun-friendly states, but the best policy is to keep it all a secret, telling no one and trusting no one.

See, this is the problem with anarchy, which many here seem to support. Anarchy is a dog eat dog world and one's lifespan is usually quite short. However, is it not more fair than any system we currently have in place? It would force everyone to become strong and the weak would become strong or be killed.

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#86466 - 04/12/14 09:37 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Crake]
334forwardspin Offline
member


Registered: 03/04/13
Posts: 509
Loc: Las Vegas,NV United States
 Originally Posted By: Crake

Let's look at another situation. Let's say a MMA fighter wins a title by fluke, but realizes that when it is time for him to defend his new title, he will fail to protect it, and he will lose it. Most people would agree here that the MMA fighter in question does not deserve the title.


Actually, you'd be surprised that most people think the opposite in my experience, with that situation. There is a great importance for many placed on coming through at the right time. To them, the MMA fighter showed up and the right time, outdid their opponent, and rightfully won that title. A lack of the ability to defend it would only mean that they are not champion for longer.

Sports actually are great examples of these concepts, because teams often win games, and players often win their individual match ups, for reasons other than actually being the superior team/player. They may just do better that day, maybe they just match up well with that one team/player, find a way to make their forte the focus of the game/match up and etc.

Some may say they do not deserve coveted things like championships for those reasons, but it happens. An idealistic world where the better competitor always wins is simply unrealistic, there are bound to be other factors involved. Thus, it is key to acknowledge these things and find a way to make them work for you, and look for your 'niche' and situations where it applies. That is a part of earning one's success as well.

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#94844 - 12/16/14 07:30 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: 334forwardspin]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
To revive this thread and add a little more to this discussion, I have this to add.

"Deserve" is a very subjective term and it's difficult to say what someone deserves in any objective manner unless you're imposing your moral perspective. From a Satanic viewpoint though, someone who cannot protect what they have should expect to lose it, and this brings up some interesting levels of nuance.

In my situation, I am reliant on the good will of other people, socialist welfare systems, free healthcare, etc. I have a place to sleep, plenty of food, all modern utilities, a nice computer, multiple games consoles, an expensive model collection for my wargaming hobby; and I go out regularly, socialise, eat out etc. I am living far beyond my means. How do I protect this? Though social persuasion.

Being "selfish" is, if there ever was such a thing, the primary tenet of Satanism. This doesn't need to be taken literally though, and can be understood far better as simoly understanding the importance of fundamental self-interest. For example; I protect my interests through social interaction. I have a wide circle of friends who I engage with regularly, and a strong family connection with relatives that I make time for. By doing this I create a support network of people who want to help me.

Only a few days ago I was doing pretty much this. I was at a friends house writing his CV and filling out his applications for new jobs. He's quite severly dyslexic and while spelling/grammar are not my strong points, with a spell-check I'm usually more than competent. I also paid for a take-away meal. This was easy for me. Typing at a computer is one of the few things I can do, and with my disability benefits I have some limited disposable income, enough that a take-away meal is hardly set to break the bank. The result is far more valuable. My friend will be more likely to further his career, he will be happier, he'll have more money, and he'll be willing to reciprocate when I need something. He already drives for me, often as much as 100 miles per week; granting me much independence.

The fact is, friendship and kindness are good tools for furthering not just yourself, but you social circle as a whole. There's also the emotional benefits. I enjoy seeing people I like, happy. I want to improve their lives and subsequently they wish the same for me. Why manipulate someone into helping you when you can make it such that they freely and genuinely want to help you? This is how I opperate.

On a wider scale, I keep active in politics and spread my political opinion where possible. I've convinced many people to change their vote and I hope that I can at least keep local systems such that I can still use them. This conversation alone is an example, trying to convince people that my method is not only morally kinder but also gets the results we want. I hope to spread my morals and political views through debate, and by doing so I protect my benefits, on which I'm reliant.

This is my take on this principal of Satanic thinking, though on the question of who "deserves" what, you can only ask yourself; Do I deserve what I have? Do you deserve what you have? We'll all have different answers but I aim to convince people that I do deserve what I get. I'd be interested in hearing what you all think of my approach.
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#94845 - 12/16/14 08:14 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: TornadoCreator]
Megatron Offline
active member


Registered: 08/22/14
Posts: 859
Loc: fuckit, some kid cracked my co...
The OP was certainly misinformed/uneducated/whatever about the complexities that exist among social creatures (as humans tend to be). So, is that social species somehow un-Satanic?

Not in the least. It's actually a vital part of what I term "the Wheel" and "the Next". Without these infrastructures we would no longer be able to benefit from the genius of Stephen Hawking. And that's just one guy doing theoretical physics for fun.

The concept of "rational self interest" came from Rand, who was pretty much a douchebag. She projected her personal failures onto her philosophy, which latter is nothing of value. Objectively speaking, of course.

To quote Jesus:

 Originally Posted By: Mediterranean Jew
When the strong man, fully armed, guards his own dwelling, his goods are safe. But when someone stronger attacks him and overcomes him, he takes from him his whole armour in which he trusted, and divides his spoils.


There's always someone that can kick your ass and take your shit. But that is no philosophy of society.
_________________________
You can't beat me, I'm a fucking Transformer (TM), dude.

Oh, and I spell everything right.

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#94846 - 12/16/14 10:09 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Megatron]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6789
Loc: Virginia
The Opie wasn't addressing a Philosophy of Society (which equates to what precisely anyway??) he was honing in on specific strengths. Even if you consider him to have been misinformed by his own perspective, you've just reinforced that these Systems are essential to personal survival. The Wheel, the Next, is a Nomian apparatus that we all buy lock, stock and barrel right? Why not go ahead and be an apologist for it? It makes it way more acceptable right? Way cooler!

Is brain-surgery only available to you through these infrastructures?

If the whole thing was shut down tomorrow, you don't think you can benefit from what you can take from the landscape, what you gain from holding knowledge, creating smaller networks and can take from others?

Before you get all sanctimonious about it. Don't we essentially steal ideas from one-another? Unless of course you think Hawking should hoard his ideas and only record them in a private journal? Why share that info in the first place?


If you can easily take my shit, do I deserve it in the first place? Let's get all uppity about owning 'ideas', copyright and trademark protection while we're at it too.

For context:


 Quote:
the masses exist for the individual's amusement. they are the individual's source of income and entertainment, there to be taken advantage of and toyed with.


Isn't this essentially capitalism in a nutshell? The Masses are just cash-cows which are sold the idea that they benefit from the infrastructure. All of which, isn't in the hands of 'the people' anyway, even if our beloved 'Republic' is supposed to work that way (with it's so-called Democratic system). It doesn't. Why are 'the people' prevented from creating their own infrastructure? Their own self-sustaining communities (right off the bat they are called compounds, cults, and other divisive lingo that otherizes them. They are OTHER, a part from THE infrastructure).

If Joe Shmoe accidentally discovers the cure for cancer, well then he's forced into a Social Contract to share that info. He owes it to all of humanity!



Don't believe me? Check out the cats out in in the California Desert. They aren't bothering anyone. They are on land no one else wants or needs, yet the 'Government' finds all sorts of bogus ordinances to boot them off the land (such as structures being eyesores to 'neighbors' 20+ miles away, it's in the social contract not to do that!) . Why? Because they can. If they can, do they deserve to be there in the first place? Seems to me that's the real question the Opie was addressing.

As Thus:

 Quote:


if people are going to allow themselves to be stupid enough to fall for tricks and gimmicks, then they deserve it.


Using the same example, these folks in Cali basically gathered, had their little town meeting, voiced their complaints, screamed from the roof-tops, got a little media exposure but ultimately - they got the boot.


 Quote:

all preventable, if they only cared to prevent it...if they don't even try, then they obviously don't care whether or not they are metiphorically raped. to say they do is foolishness.


They gave it a go. They cared enough to try. What stopped them from standing their ground? Fear of consequence. Fear of fines, fear of being jailed, fear of losing all their material belongings. Is that the philosophy of society you were referring to?


 Quote:


I ask you, does one deserve what one cannot protect?

(correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is a satanic point of view..)


Didn't he just cover Might is Right?
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#94847 - 12/16/14 11:27 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: SIN3]
Megatron Offline
active member


Registered: 08/22/14
Posts: 859
Loc: fuckit, some kid cracked my co...
The lady doth protest too much, I think.

Certainly, there are all kinds of vectors intersecting the "individual". Many of them relatively "unfriendly," so to speak.

==================

as a personal aside, I think we tend to just read things differently, Alison. And for me personally, that's what makes engaging you FUN.
_________________________
You can't beat me, I'm a fucking Transformer (TM), dude.

Oh, and I spell everything right.

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#94848 - 12/16/14 11:44 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Megatron]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6789
Loc: Virginia
Obviously, that could be said for just about every user that replied to the topic.


Protest too much? That's what you got?

Philosophy of Society is, what again? The social contract? The progression of our technological age? Apologetics? American Progress? What?

How does that yoke with what the Opie was laying down to discuss?

I guess it's easier to dismiss the guy as a misinformed ignoramous than to pick up the gauntlet. Eh?

So let's have some fun. Blow my mind.
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#94849 - 12/16/14 12:33 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: SIN3]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
Honestly, is it even worth arguing the points that the OP raised as he posted this thread back in 2009, has made 9 posts, and hasn't been on since December 2009. Surely it's more conducive to an interesting discussion to approach the theme of the discussion in our own way and discuss those points rather than calling someone who's not here and doesn't care, an idiot or whatever...

Let's bring this thread back to basics. Rather than quoting texts or referencing what someone else has said, let's share our own opinions. With that I say simply this.

What is your stance on "ownership" and "power"? Do you agree with the claim "If one cannot defend what the have, they deserve to lose it", and if not/so why? Do you believe people have inherent rights? How do you interpret these issues and do you feel Satanism altered this interpretation for you?

We could make this quite engaging without digging up years old posts or rehashing the same points.
_________________________
If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#94852 - 12/16/14 02:10 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: TornadoCreator]
Brother Nihil Offline
member


Registered: 09/22/13
Posts: 181
[deleted]

Edited by Brother Nihil (12/16/14 02:45 PM)

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#94853 - 12/16/14 03:00 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: SIN3]
Megatron Offline
active member


Registered: 08/22/14
Posts: 859
Loc: fuckit, some kid cracked my co...
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
How does that yoke with what the Opie was laying down to discuss?

I guess it's easier to dismiss the guy as a misinformed ignoramous than to pick up the gauntlet. Eh?


If you re-read it, you'll see that it is incoherent at best. No wonder dude didn't hang around.

Again, I answered the proverbial "question," and I even quoted the Olive-skinned Carpenter.

In case you missed the bottom line:

ONE does not exist in isolation.
_________________________
You can't beat me, I'm a fucking Transformer (TM), dude.

Oh, and I spell everything right.

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#94855 - 12/16/14 03:27 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Megatron]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6789
Loc: Virginia
But that's not answering the question directly. It's skirt-tailing the issue.

Do you deserve what you can not protect?
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