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#94857 - 12/16/14 04:03 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: SIN3]
TornadoCreator Offline
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 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Do you deserve what you can not protect?


I think that's the wrong question in all honesty. "Deserve" is subjective, and "protect" can also be subjective. Do people living in fascist countries deserve to be subjugated because they cannot protect their freedom and livelihood? Does someone born disabled deserve to be taken advantage of because they cannot protect their own interests? If you're answering yes to these things quite frankly you're an immoral arsehole who's opinion I don't value. The answer is clearly 'No'. But the question is wrong.

"Deserving" and "Expecting" are not the same. You should expect to be mugged in a rough neighbourhood and where possible make changes to minimise the risk, but you certainly don't deserve to be mugged.

Far more interesting a question is this; What methods do you use to protect your self interests, and do you feel it's enough to protect your property, wealth, power, influence, and social standing? Are you simply lucky/unlucky or have you worked bloody hard to achieve what others have almost by default, and does this effect the value you give it, the vigor with which you protect it, or your appreciation of it? These are far more interesting and nuanced questions, more deserving of our time.
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#94859 - 12/17/14 02:17 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: TornadoCreator]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3385
"Nobody expects the Spanish inquisition"
- The Spanish Inquisition

Joking aside, deserving can be a strong word to be used here. Nobody deserves anything yet everybody may be (feeling) entitled to everything. This means that everyone is deserving of what they own or achieve on par that they deserve to lose if there's a failure to keep or uphold. The vigour to protect or maintain their success(es) not withstanding. Some people are just more "lucky" and/or endowed than others.
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#94860 - 12/17/14 04:43 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: SIN3]
Megatron Offline
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Registered: 08/22/14
Posts: 859
Loc: fuckit, some kid cracked my co...
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
But that's not answering the question directly. It's skirt-tailing the issue.


Not really, it's called nuance.

 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Do you deserve what you can not protect?


The problem lies in the word "deserve". It presupposes some kind of unwritten law of nature similar to the usage of the term "right". To answer directly, no, there is no inherent right to life, let alone possession.

However, human beings are not leopards, and we don't have to drag our kills up trees to protect them from hyenas. At least those of us who inhabit societies do not. Those of us still clinging to the more animalistic and/or sociopathic tendencies might have some issue with this reality, but they are a minority.

Natural law (Lex Satanae) differs in application according to the species in question. Those species with more communal/societal inclination will create for themselves a network of interactive protection, so to speak.

But anywho, I'm tired of trying to talk apples to your manufactured oranges, and I don't see the world in black/white contrast. Just to bring the opie into focus as incoherent, let me give you a question that illustrates the silliness:

Did you "deserve" to get stung by that bee?

No nuance, just yes or no.

See my point yet?


Edited by Megatron (12/17/14 04:45 AM)
Edit Reason: undid an adverb in favor of an adjective
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#94865 - 12/17/14 09:33 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Megatron]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
Perhaps another contextual example?

I agree, that no man is an Island even if we can withdraw from habitual interaction. What I'm not agreeing with here, is the idea of this Social Contract, this so-called philosophy that we cooperate and that these societal infrastructures are essential to survival.

If you neglect your kids, fail to protect them from detrimental influences and harm - doesn't society tell you that you don't deserve them? Don't they send some agency to snatch them away from you until such time you prove otherwise? Some people never get their kids back and they are thrown into the thralls of a system that presumes to know better.

 Quote:
he problem lies in the word "deserve". It presupposes some kind of unwritten law of nature similar to the usage of the term "right". To answer directly, no, there is no inherent right to life, let alone possession.


Word games, really? So which is it? Does language have meaning within the context of the society in which you live, or are these words just arbitrary?

The Opie was clear, deserving was placed within a context. It wasn't ambiguous at all, in spite of your attempt to turn apples into oranges.

Come correct or be gone.
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#94867 - 12/17/14 11:16 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: SIN3]
Megatron Offline
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Registered: 08/22/14
Posts: 859
Loc: fuckit, some kid cracked my co...
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
The Opie
 Originally Posted By: Opie
the masses exist for the individual's amusement. they are the individual's source of income and entertainment, there to be taken advantage of and toyed with.

if people are going to allow themselves to be stupid enough to fall for tricks and gimmicks, then they deserve it.

all preventable, if they only cared to prevent it...if they don't even try, then they obviously don't care whether or not they are metiphorically raped. to say they do is foolishness.



I ask you, does one deserve what one cannot protect?

was clear, deserving was placed within a context. It wasn't ambiguous at all, in spite of your attempt to turn apples into oranges.

Come correct or be gone.



LOL. Really?

The idea presented in the now immediately quoted opie defines "deserving" rather petulantly and without real translational ability. The same quote might has well have been uttered by a convicted child molester. And no, I'm not trippin,' read it again.
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#94868 - 12/17/14 11:28 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Megatron]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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Yes really.

I guess it's easier to just claim it was without real translational ability. Fuck it, just make up new words and bam - you're around the rosie.

#Ringer
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#94872 - 12/17/14 01:59 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: SIN3]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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Deserve is really just shorthand for 'can acquire and protect'. All other tangents are meaningless language games.
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#94878 - 12/18/14 05:35 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: SIN3]
Megatron Offline
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Registered: 08/22/14
Posts: 859
Loc: fuckit, some kid cracked my co...
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
I guess it's easier to just claim it was without real translational ability. Fuck it, just make up new words and bam - you're around the rosie.


New words? Although I have done such a thing, I wasn't doing it here. Perhaps you mean "concepts unfamiliar to you".

Try:

"translational ability" =df. applicability to the full range offered by the domain.

With both "domain" and "range" being concepts borrowed from mathematics.

In other words, if you can't apply something (in this case, a definition) to the full range supported by the parsing, then it ceases to be a meaningful construct.

Like I said, Opie wrote a piece of drivel that might has well have been a defense of child molestation. It certainly wasn't anything with translational ability. I.e. it has no value as an independent conceptualization of "deserve/s"

So again, the Opied question was not clear in and of itself, and such things are a bit more nuanced than you might wish.

 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Deserve is really just shorthand for 'can acquire and protect'. All other tangents are meaningless language games.


Not really. I'll ask you the same thing I asked Alison:

Did you deserve to get stung by that bee?

Notice that your definition doesn't really hold up when substituted term for term. Unless, of course, you "acquire and protect" bee stings.

Yeah, language games.
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#94883 - 12/18/14 10:54 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Megatron]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
Are you sure you're understanding what you're reading here?

Words are just carriers. My point is, you could even make up a new word to carry the message and if the message is bogus its still bogus. I wasn't saying that YOU had already made up a new word.

So while you're hung up on one particular word, that doesn't exactly clear the message. It's obvious not Ambiguous as you claim what the opie was getting at here.

Going back to previous examples I've provided, if you can't protect your kids do you deserve them?

Say I'm a serial kidnapper, I break into your crib and take your kids to be sold on the black market. Did you deserve them in the first place if you can't protect them? Maybe they'd be better off in the sex trade.
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#94918 - 12/19/14 01:22 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: SIN3]
Megatron Offline
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Registered: 08/22/14
Posts: 859
Loc: fuckit, some kid cracked my co...
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Are you sure you're understanding what you're reading here? [. . .] So while you're hung up on one particular word, that doesn't exactly clear the message. It's obvious not Ambiguous as you claim what the opie was getting at here. [/qutoe]

As I said, the applicability is morally meaningless. But we're gtting to that right now . . .

[quote=SIN3] Going back to previous examples I've provided, if you can't protect your kids do you deserve them?

Say I'm a serial kidnapper, I break into your crib and take your kids to be sold on the black market. Did you deserve them in the first place if you can't protect them? Maybe they'd be better off in the sex trade.


Sure, and as I've said (quoting Jesus, no less), there is always someone who can take your lunch money. No matter who the fuck you are. But that was twenty posts ago, and certainly you weren't paying any kind of attention.

In other words, even if I grant you your retarded concept of "deserves," nobody deserves anything via the same logic.

And before you go patting yourself on the back,

a) you never made said point, and

b) this proves my initial claim regarding the philosophical incoherence of Opie.
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#95064 - 12/26/14 01:25 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Deserve is really just shorthand for 'can acquire and protect'. All other tangents are meaningless language games.



Indeed.

The 'deserve' label is little more than semantics. If you drop and an egg on the floor does it "deserve" to break? No, that is simply the natural outcome of eggs hitting the floor. Does the slow antelope "deserve" to be eaten?

All of human history is one of subjugation and domination. You are either pitching or catching. Every dog has his day. Some days your the windshield and some days your the bug. And so on, and so forth, ad nauseam.
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#95126 - 12/28/14 08:02 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Megatron]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 7190
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: Megatron


Sure, and as I've said (quoting Jesus, no less), there is always someone who can take your lunch money. No matter who the fuck you are. But that was twenty posts ago, and certainly you weren't paying any kind of attention.


C'mon now, of course I read your post and I was paying attention I just happen to disagree that the message is incoherent and retarded.

 Quote:


In other words, even if I grant you your retarded concept of "deserves," nobody deserves anything via the same logic.


Again, it's just a semantics issue. The framing was in the context of praxis of Satanism so again it wasn't ambiguous. If you're not smart enough to secure your shit, then you don't deserve to have it. Period.


 Quote:

And before you go patting yourself on the back,

a) you never made said point, and

b) this proves my initial claim regarding the philosophical incoherence of Opie.



I'm guessing you are treating this like some sort of competition, I am not. I am treating it like an engagement in conversation.

I don't see that your point was proven, only that you've got nothing else but Semantics.
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