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#24042 - 05/02/09 09:19 PM does one deserve what one cannot protect?
rottingteeth Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 9
the masses exist for the individual's amusement. they are the individual's source of income and entertainment, there to be taken advantage of and toyed with.

if people are going to allow themselves to be stupid enough to fall for tricks and gimmicks, then they deserve it.

all preventable, if they only cared to prevent it...if they don't even try, then they obviously don't care whether or not they are metiphorically raped. to say they do is foolishness.



I ask you, does one deserve what one cannot protect?

(correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is a satanic point of view..)
_________________________
"Eclipsing devotion with shallow disguise, they prey on the fruit of the one they despise."

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#24043 - 05/02/09 10:47 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: rottingteeth]
delusion Offline
pledge


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 77
Loc: hawaii
Well, it seems to me that whether you deserve it or not, if you can’t protect it then you will most likely lose it.

Deserve is one of those funny terms that is used all too often by theists when looking out into the world. “She was a whore and deserved It.”, “The guy was a creep anyway, he deserved it.” People condemning others like (instant) Karma cheerleaders and that’s pretty normal, unfortunately. People spend their days trying to absorb and make sense of all of the information that comes to them. It is more comforting to hold a firm belief if you justify it with some cosmic jury backing your damnations or praise.

As an exorcize I try to leave that term out of my thought processes. I don’t like to take part in blind judgments because I don’t agree with it philosophically. I recognize that things can have direct correlations to one another. For example, Heroin use and having a child taken by CPA; so as an observation I understand that one is likely to lead to the other. But to say something is deserved wreaks of Theistic judgment and I have no use for it.

I’d like to know what triggered this post more than anything. I noticed you used the term “they” several times was that rhetorical reasons or do you think that you are different somehow from the masses?

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#24046 - 05/02/09 11:28 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: rottingteeth]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
I'm not sure what point you are trying to convey here. You say that "if if people are going to allow themselves to be stupid enough to fall for tricks and gimmicks, then they deserve it." I would agree with that to a point. I am not sure if they would actually "deserve" it. That would ultimately depend upon the person you were asking. I would say that if people are going to be stupid enough to allow themselves to fall for tricks and gimmicks then that is all their fault. Furthermore, if I can somewhow benefit from their naivity, all the better.

What confuses me here is your question " does one deserve what one cannot protect?" That question is pretty vague. I have a girlfriend, I feel like I deserve her because I have worked to gain her love, affection and loyalty. Being that we are two seperate people and have two seperate lives I can't be around to protect her 24/7 (granted this girl is more than capable of taking care of herself). Assuming that one of these nights she were to be robbed, and me unable to stop it, or, protect her; would it logically follow that I don't deserve her?

Ultimately, my interpretation boils down to this: Many people deserve what they get, fewer get what they deserve.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#24125 - 05/04/09 09:53 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: rottingteeth]
Saligia Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/03/09
Posts: 37
Loc: Manchester, England
I agree with delusion on this (hmm there's an odd line for you) in that the idea of deserving something or not deserving it seems somewhat moralistic.
If we take the notion that humanity is simply another animal then the concern with whether we deserve something or not should really be discarded. You take what you want from the world without being concerned about whether or not you deserve it and if somebody takes something from you (regardless of whether you were seeking to protect it or not) your natural inclination is to take it back from them and/or seek revenge.
To summarise, a lion doesn't question whether or not an antelope deserves to die so that the lion may eat, it simply seeks to satisfy it's own needs.

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#25869 - 06/20/09 11:52 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Saligia]
Ethophobia Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/18/09
Posts: 26
Loc: Texas
To do a bit of expanding, I would like to address the notion of "Us and Lions."

With humans, we seem to be constantly trying to grasp some kind of logic beyond that which we see. Obviously incapable of knowing what, if anything, lies beyond that great divide between our minds and the universe, we tend to think up stories to explain the things we cannot describe. Although we need food to eat, we generally have to do no killing in order to do so, hence cutting ourselves off from that very primal, and peaceful notion that "morals do not play in to survival."

How much does a person have that they really need? I could do without my cell, my TV, my bed, my dishes. Narrowing it down, the only thing I would really need is an able body and a weapon. The sad truth is that life is not like that for humans anymore. Not to sound like a sod, but we have become domesticated beasts. In order to see us at our prime, we would have to step outside of the confines of the masses. Realistically, hardly anyone does that anymore. When it comes to morals, I think humans tend to look more into "need vs. want." If you need something, like your life, and someone threatens to take it from you, a jury could say you were innocent for killing the other person. If you wanted the drugs in said person's pocket and killed them for it, how would a jury vote? How about if it were not drugs but a game boy, a pair of shoes, a gold necklace?

To tie this back to the OP, it seems a better path to direct the attention more to protection of something valuable, like a life, to something trivial, like a watch. Although it would seem stupid to an animal with a smaller brain, humans (unfortunately), can tell the difference. And unfortunately, once more, we have bigger brains. Even though philosophers have a hard time explaining how interrelated the mind and the brain actually are, none can refuse that there are times when they can act independent of each other, such as knee-jerk reactions processed by the brain, introspection and logic.

Even as a tribe, it has almost always been the rule that the family protects the individual. Even animals protect each other. The methods we use to protect what is ours may not seem obvious, but looking closer, it seems it all eventually boils down to what we can and cannot keep as ours. Watches, drugs, homes, lovers. Many animals protect others of their kind. Mutual protection. Is that any less than us employing police? I am not convinced..

//rambling

I will prepare for a social thrashing now. Incoming! \:\)
_________________________
You are all fucked and overrated. I think I am going to be sick, and its your fault.

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#25871 - 06/21/09 02:32 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Ethophobia]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
How much does a person have that they really need? I could do without my cell, my TV, my bed, my dishes. Narrowing it down, the only thing I would really need is an able body and a weapon.

I doubt so, despite the able body and weapons you need your intelligence. In a war an able body and good weapon means nothing if you haven't got a plan. You'd be shot to pieces.

 Quote:
In order to see us at our prime, we would have to step outside of the confines of the masses.

Then what? Becoming consumed by nature because we lack natural tools like claws, bigger muscles..
We are at our prime, humans are animals who live in group. Everything you see around is a credit of human power. No animal in the history of the earth ever had such an impact as we have. If humanity dies out several millions of years later there can be still evidence found of our actions.



Edited by Dimitri (06/21/09 02:32 AM)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#25875 - 06/21/09 06:21 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Dimitri]
Ethophobia Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/18/09
Posts: 26
Loc: Texas
[quote=Dimitri]
 Quote:
I doubt so, despite the able body and weapons you need your intelligence. In a war an able body and good weapon means nothing if you haven't got a plan. You'd be shot to pieces.


My body includes my brain. Despite the line drawn, I still include my ability to process information as a gift my body gives to me. Not to mention, survival does not indicate war. Placed in a war, or placed in total immersion of nature are two very different things at least, and especially, in this context. Even if you take life in general as a war, then you could never be considered to be without a plan, else in your perpective, that planless individual is just a walking bodybag. Your argument is invalid.


 Quote:
We are at our prime, humans are animals who live in group. Everything you see around is a credit of human power. No animal in the history of the earth ever had such an impact as we have. If humanity dies out several millions of years later there can be still evidence found of our actions.


If we humans now are at our prime, then I shudder to think what we will look like in the future. We are a poorly functioning regurgitation of nature. An accident. An aberrant cell group multiplying until the host can no longer accommodate. How can survival of the fittest occur when we have taken ourselves out of that loop? Just because in millions of years they can find stuff we did does not mean we are any more important. We can find evidence of things that lived before us. Fossils and fossil fuels for example. Does that mean that dinosaurs had reasoning minds?

Sure, we have an impact. So what? Anything with an ability to differentiate self from nature could do that. I think you are placing humanity on a pedestal.
_________________________
You are all fucked and overrated. I think I am going to be sick, and its your fault.

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#25883 - 06/21/09 09:44 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: rottingteeth]
Scarlett156 Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/20/09
Posts: 59
Loc: rural Eastern Colorado (USA)
Another topic on this board has the title "is murder wrong?"--this topic seems to address another so-called "sin", that of theft. (A better title might have been "is stealing wrong?" but of course that would not have prompted as much discussion.)

If we "prove" this hypothesis to its logical extreme we shortly find ourselves in the position of not being able to enjoy life or possessions at all. If we only "deserve" those things that we can adequately protect, then we deserve very little, as each of us has to sleep, eat, and use the bathroom at some point during every 24- to 48-hour period. I think/hope that we can all agree that a lifetime of jealously guarding one's possessions is not much of a lifetime.

 Quote:
if people are going to allow themselves to be stupid enough to fall for tricks and gimmicks, then they deserve it.

all preventable, if they only cared to prevent it...if they don't even try, then they obviously don't care whether or not they are metiphorically raped. to say they do is foolishness.


I used to hang around with some guys that most people would term "dedicated fuckups" who had--in spite of their youth--spent a goodly portion of their lives in jail or prison. The above statement sounds a lot like the kinds of things they would say to justify their constant stealing and scamming, to wit:

The family went on vacation so they deserved to have all their stuff ripped off.
The guy was asleep so he must have WANTED for us to steal his car.
That girl is wearing a tight skirt, so she is asking to be assaulted.

(etc)


If I could sum up in a few words the main difference between my values as a Satanist and the values prevalent to society as a whole right now, it would be to say that consideration of possible consequences and outcomes drives my actions more surely than any ethic.

That is to say, whether someone "deserves" his or her possessions is an ethical consideration that's completely beside the point if I need or want something that person has (which is hardly ever the case, let me hasten to add). If the potential consequences of my taking something from someone else by force, trickery, or extortion are more than I think I can deal with (arrest, court, jail, getting the crap beat out of me, getting shot, etc), then I leave the shit alone. I would rather "possess" a quiet life of relative liberty than any number of flat-screen TV sets and laptop computers.

 Quote:
I ask you, does one deserve what one cannot protect?

(correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is a satanic point of view..)


You are wrong. A satanist doesn't waste his time worrying about who "deserves" what.

I hope this helps to answer your question.

~~~ yours in Chaos, Scarlett
_________________________
"I can fling poo gooder than u"

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#25897 - 06/21/09 02:13 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Ethophobia]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
Even if you take life in general as a war, then you could never be considered to be without a plan, else in your perpective, that planless individual is just a walking bodybag. Your argument is invalid.

Not invalid, even when not in war you need to think. An able body only works at his best with a good brain to steer it. If not you as well might be a plant..

 Quote:
If we humans now are at our prime, then I shudder to think what we will look like in the future. We are a poorly functioning regurgitation of nature. An accident.

If "we" were accidents evolution might have erased us long time ago don't you think? Our genetic make-up proved far better then some animals.
 Quote:
How can survival of the fittest occur when we have taken ourselves out of that loop?

It was never taken out, survival of the fittest is still active.

 Quote:
Not to mention, survival does not indicate war.

Survival is war. If you want to survive you need to get a grip on you life, "battle" others to achieve certain goals. War is not always fought with physical weapons.


 Quote:
We can find evidence of things that lived before us. Fossils and fossil fuels for example. Does that mean that dinosaurs had reasoning minds?

Sure, we have an impact. So what? Anything with an ability to differentiate self from nature could do that. I think you are placing humanity on a pedestal.

Are you stupid? Fossils are a thing apart. Man's buildings and roads can be kept "complete" for millions of years. Ofcourse not in the state as they are now. But if several millions years later aliens land on this planet they might find pieces of glass, weird "layers" which can't be formed by nature itself or any natural process, formations which for nature are impossible to be formed,...

Ofcourse I'm setting humanity on a pedestal. In the 4.5 billion year of history on this planet we are the most influencial, most intelligent and most ultimate macro-scopic killer/predator alive.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#25920 - 06/21/09 08:36 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Dimitri]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
In response to the above posters in general:

If humanity were reduced to living as we did in the Stone Age, our growth as a species would be pruned back to the root. I'm not talking about reproductive growth, but mental growth. Having to hunt, kill, dress, prepare and store food would take up at least 70% of our time, if not more. Especially if we would be reduced to single-family groups, not tribes, where there would be fewer hands to make short work of labor-intensive projects.

What I can't understand is this rampant desire among so many Satanists, to return to the halcyon days of "survival of the fittest". The very fact that we've been able to remove ourselves from the food chain speaks volumes of us as a species. Of our intellect and ability to factor in consequences of our actions when making decisions. Now, certainly our decisions regarding the planet as a whole have not been anything to be proud of, but in regards to playing out scenarios as a result of actions, to choose the one that works to our advantage the best, is what sets us apart. Our ignorance about the effect our species has had on the planet has, until recently, been total. With our current technology, and ever in the process of coming up with new ways to measure and problem-solve, we can better monitor our "footprint" on the Earth, and work to preserve what we have, as best we can.

At least until we can get Mars terraformed ;\).

The goal of humanity since Homo homo sapiens (yes, we are a subspecies of Homo sapiens in case you didn't know) came about, was to make our lives better. To be more comfortable, to ease pains, to have a full belly, to have a good place to defend against predators and stay out of the elements, things of that nature. In regards to the desire to meet those goals, nothing has really changed in the past 40,000 years, now has it.

Adding iPhones, cars and Costco-sized jars of mayonnaise does not remove our overall intelligence from us. Yes, without them we would be shell-shocked for a time, until we learned to adjust to not having them. Many would perish from the lack of food, clean water, and absence of medicines, but we would get ourselves sorted out, and work on once again inventing new ways to make our lives easier.
_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

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#26099 - 06/24/09 02:42 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Nemesis]
delusion Offline
pledge


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 77
Loc: hawaii
 Quote:
What I can't understand is this rampant desire among so many Satanists, to return to the halcyon days of "survival of the fittest"

It seems to me that the connection has to do with the philosophy itself. Satanism, for me, is in part a practice in embracing the hard truths of life in order to achieve balance and perspective. It is easy for an individual to become stuck in a doom & gloom mindset when his core philosophy is so rich with it. One of the first books the "satanic community" at large will push on you is Might Is Right and for me it doesn't get much more primal than that.

I agree with you that "Satanists" often default back to a Mad Max outlook but I think that is programmed to some extent by the "satanic community" as a corner stone to the philosophy. Reference the Nine Satanic Statements; another mandatory part of the generalized satanic curriculum, and see that the language is very much in keeping with bold decision making.

Do you think this regression is a mark of the philosophy or the individuals who partake?

Delusion

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#26129 - 06/24/09 03:24 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: delusion]
hellbent666
Unregistered



I would have to say that it is just the philosophy at work. Most of the Satanists I've met, short of a few, were not capable of defending themselves let alone their property. Most being introverted book worms that have never been in a gym or trained to fight. The philosophy has a ton of limits and a ton of things that need to be interpreted by the individual. Not every Satanist can afford to be the pompous arrogant schmuck, although some try anyways, because they do not have the strength or the goods to back it up. Most of what I see from the satanic community is empty posturing, or social posturing which is slightly entertaining to watch at times ;\)
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#26149 - 06/24/09 07:21 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: ]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3894
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
I doubt you've ever actually met a Satanist in your life. Just because someone calls themselves a bottle doesn't mean they can actually hold water.

I've only met less than a handful myself(online or off). If someone doesn't have the goods, get results, and actually live it, they are nothing but posers.


Edited by Dan_Dread (06/24/09 07:24 PM)
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ADM
ideological vandal

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#26179 - 06/25/09 01:06 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Dan_Dread]
hellbent666
Unregistered



I used to think that only "true" Satanists hung out in "another" forum and that this forum was for the rejects. Then after some searching, listening, and lurking I found out that most of the members here actually have their heads screwed on straight, while a minor few, such as yourself, have no idea what some of the words and concepts mean in your precious little religion/title/philosophy. Please, do the forum a favor and go bring us the definition of "Elite", then do us a favor and extrapolate on how you are elite. I am going to play Socrates here for a second and say, "Please Enlighten Me." I already know you have an interesting challenge ahead of you. Simple right? Are you up to the challenge? Please keep in mind that Socrates often times made people into idiots by asking simple questions. I have higher hopes for your internet tough guy persona.
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#26181 - 06/25/09 01:14 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: ]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3894
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Do you buy into your own bullshit?

Does your sense of entitlement know no bounds?

But since I am my own favorite subject, I will indulge you \:\)

How am I elite? Lets see. financially successful..check. Good looking and physically gifted...check. Intelligent..in spades.
Working on ten years in a very happy relationship. Surrounded by people that absolutely adore me. I could really go on and on.


I am thinking you still live with your parents? \:\)
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ADM
ideological vandal

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#26185 - 06/25/09 01:40 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Dan_Dread]
hellbent666
Unregistered



You did not take my challenge. I am disappointed. I wanted the dictionary definition of elite, and how you are a supposed gift to mankind. Do you want me to do all the work for you? I don't feel the need to defend myself online, but to answer your question, NO. I live with 2 amazing roomies, on my own. I have a paid for car, and minimal bills that I pay for with my own hard earned money. You are eager to flip the table. I would be very entertained if you take the challenge and bring us the definition of elite so we can see where you went wrong in your interpretation of such a simple word.
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#26189 - 06/25/09 02:25 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Dan_Dread]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
Big Slick
active member


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
 Quote:
How am I elite? Lets see. financially successful..check. Good looking and physically gifted...check. Intelligent..in spades.
Working on ten years in a very happy relationship. Surrounded by people that absolutely adore me. I could really go on and on.
Please do go on. Because if that is what you consider elite, then half of Hollywood is also elite. Half of the Midwest is elite. That was a pretty vague description of elite.
_________________________
Beer, the reason I get up every afternoon.

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#26197 - 06/25/09 02:52 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Ethophobia Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/18/09
Posts: 26
Loc: Texas
Wow

 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Do you buy into your own bullshit?

Does your sense of entitlement know no bounds?

But since I am my own favorite subject, I will indulge you \:\)

How am I elite? Lets see. financially successful..check. Good looking and physically gifted...check. Intelligent..in spades.
Working on ten years in a very happy relationship. Surrounded by people that absolutely adore me. I could really go on and on.


I am thinking you still live with your parents? \:\)


Self inflating ego that sounds like overcompensation..check.

To the both of you, that have completely derailed the subject (thanks a lot), get over yourselves. Hellbent with your avatar of what I can assume is you trying to put on your own internet tough-guy persona, and Dan with his all powerful wit and cutting intellect. Your opinions ain't worth a velvet painting of a whale and a dolphin gettin' it on.

Also? Both of you need to evaluate your own stereotypes and biases because it sounds to me like you both are in god need of a boot up your ass before either one of you are going to realize that a) satanists are everywhere, you not meeting them just means you are not cool enough by their standards to out to you and b) not all satanists are rail-thin WoW playing mamas boys, either. Some of us are the exact opposite. Some could likely toss your ass around like a ragdoll, shit on your face and make you say thank you. And I mean that in the kindest regard.

When it comes to who protects what, the system is fine. You bitch about getting philosophical over what is undoubtedly a philosophical question, it goes that primitive beasts such as yourselves may attack the thing of mystery. Oh no! Some of reality may actually be doing us some good!

God, pull the telephone pole from your throat and say something of use for once in your so-far ephemeral lives.

And stick to the damn topic. Jeeze. Rude.
_________________________
You are all fucked and overrated. I think I am going to be sick, and its your fault.

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#26199 - 06/25/09 03:07 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Ethophobia]
hellbent666
Unregistered



how are we both guilty of derailing the topic? If I'm not mistaken I posted my reply and this jack ass commented on it. If we are not allowed to defend ourselves please change your stranger status to moderator and and fix the problem. Oh wait! You can't! I posted my reply, apparently you did not read it.

BTW...you have not seen me. You have no idea what I look like. I loathe WoW and the useless people that play it while getting fat and doing nothing with their lives. I am a student, an employee, a gym junkie and a training fighter in Tae Kwon Do. Please let's not make assumptions. lets stick to facts ;\) Thanks!

Comment on my reply if you want, or go cry to the moderator if you wish.

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#26200 - 06/25/09 03:08 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: ]
hellbent666
Unregistered



I would have to say that it is just the philosophy at work. Most of the Satanists I've met, short of a few, were not capable of defending themselves let alone their property. Most being introverted book worms that have never been in a gym or trained to fight. The philosophy has a ton of limits and a ton of things that need to be interpreted by the individual. Not every Satanist can afford to be the pompous arrogant schmuck, although some try anyways, because they do not have the strength or the goods to back it up. Most of what I see from the satanic community is empty posturing, or social posturing which is slightly entertaining to watch at times ;\)

bump dickhead...

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#26206 - 06/25/09 05:01 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: ]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Or maybe they have no desire to hang with you or open up their satanic affilation with you.

Just because they dont want to be your friend doesn't mean they aren't out there.

I know tons of Satanist, on and off of this site in real life. They can kick ass, defend themselves, and others.
Some are MMA fighters, gun toting soliders, street fighters, and brawlers.
I have been in enough fights and would have these guys at my back anytime.

They dont need to put a arm curl pic up, they just do what needs to be done.

There is a big difference between talking the talk and walking the walk.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#26207 - 06/25/09 05:09 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Disabuse Offline
member


Registered: 09/19/07
Posts: 220
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Do you buy into your own bullshit?

Does your sense of entitlement know no bounds?

But since I am my own favorite subject, I will indulge you \:\)

How am I elite? Lets see. financially successful..check. Good looking and physically gifted...check. Intelligent..in spades.
Working on ten years in a very happy relationship. Surrounded by people that absolutely adore me. I could really go on and on.


I am thinking you still live with your parents? \:\)


You're falling further and further from the tree Dan. If you're looking for an ego stroke, go tell your mom you got a raise. Not one of those things makes you elite. The fact that you believe they DO make you elite, proves you're not.

I can't even read your posts anymore man. They give me a head ache from all the drivel and lack of self-control and enlightenment.
_________________________
-Disabuse Conformity-
"Cu č surdu, orbu e taci, campa cent'anni 'mpaci."

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#26208 - 06/25/09 06:22 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861

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#26232 - 06/25/09 12:44 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Nemesis]
Saligia Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/03/09
Posts: 37
Loc: Manchester, England
 Originally Posted By: Nemesis

What I can't understand is this rampant desire among so many Satanists, to return to the halcyon days of "survival of the fittest". The very fact that we've been able to remove ourselves from the food chain speaks volumes of us as a species.


I don't think it's a desire to return to the stone age so much as the belief that we're not really that different from cavemen in the sense that we still have a "kill or be killed" mentality stored in our primitive desires and base instincts.
Incorporating this belief into a workable philosophy is, in my mind, simply going by the attitude of "your own success comes first." Going by this philosophy I wouldn't go out stealing, pillaging and looting as in our society this would result in being locked away. However, I don't see any problem with ruthless business ethics and certain morally questionable money-making techniques, providing they are legal. On another thread, somebody was talking about setting up a business "selling" curses to people. In my eyes this is morally questionable in the sense that the seller knows full well he's providing psychodrama rather than miracles, but as it's legal I see no reason not to go for it.
Basically, the somewhat primitive attitude of "Might is Right" can (in my opinion) be implemented in modern society through cunning and manipulation rather than overt brutality. It's essentially the animal attitude of "me see, me want" adapted to fit a "civilised" world.

*edit* To an extent I think the principles of "Might is Right" hold a lot of appeal to younger people (typically teenagers) as they are still looking for their place in society. Maybe once people reach a position in their lives where they can honestly say "I've done well to get here" they simply don't need this philosophy as much. This is pure speculation of course, perhaps somebody older than me could say whether this has any truth or not.


Edited by Saligia (06/25/09 12:51 PM)

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#26312 - 06/26/09 05:20 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Morgan]
hellbent666
Unregistered



Did you ever bother to see how old I am Morgan, or perhaps even the life experiences I've had previous to me posting on this forum? So yet again another assumption has been made based on the lack of facts. And the answer to your question is Yes. I have 3 Satanic acquaintances in the State where I live. Only one of whom I still talk to. I have a few on my myspace page that I talk to on the phone or know through the internet. You didn't ask whether or not I even like Satanists to begin with. The answer to that question is NO. I actually despise most people, period. I typically despise Satanists even more and I doubt that I need to elaborate on why if you've ever been to LttD ;\)

The arm curl pic is a very meaningful pic to me, and your first assumption, like most people's assumptions, is that I'm showing off or trying to play tough guy. If you saw a pic of me from high school, before I went to prison you'd be like WTF?! Get outta here skinny boy! This picture is a memory of all my hard work and discipline which are satanic standards. Maybe you don't adhere to these standards or understand them but I most definitely do. I walk the walk every goddamned day of my life. To quote you, "Don't like what I say, kiss my ass." LOL! Good quote Morgan ;\)

Now on to the discussion at hand. If you were to apply everything Ragnar Redbeard layed out in Might is Right you would spend the rest of your days in prison for some kind of racist hate crime. I don't think LaVey understood the legal ramifications of what would happen if people literally interpreted most of the BS in TSB. So what do you do if your boss is a douche and gets in your face? Do you hit him, talk shit back, or cower like a pussy because you're afraid of losing your job? I know what most people would do.

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#26314 - 06/26/09 06:18 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: ]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: hellbent666
I typically despise Satanists even more and I doubt that I need to elaborate on why if you've ever been to LttD

Well it might be wise to remember you choose to associate with Satanists by being here. It is also foolish to generalize all Satanism by your experience on an Internet forum. But you know this.

You have changed from a little boy to a man from your pictures but sometimes it takes time for your thoughts to catch up with your body. Relax a bit it makes everything just a little easier.

EDIT:
 Originally Posted By: hellbent666
I don't think LaVey understood the legal ramifications of what would happen if people literally interpreted most of the BS in TSB.

You do not give the man any credit at all. I myself look at those who need to literally interpret anything as just not getting it.

I also notice in this thread you say you hate most people in another you say you hate women. I do have to ask and by asking point out, Do you really like yourself?


~T~

PS. I knew a Jasonist once his custom Satanic Bible had some pages from Dianetics added to it. He ended up muttering to himself in the shop backroom as he weirdly stepped from tile to tile, remaining so each foot was touching four tiles at a time. Sad he had potential.


Edited by ta2zz (06/26/09 06:31 PM)
Edit Reason: marked
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#26319 - 06/26/09 07:46 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: ta2zz]
hellbent666
Unregistered



LOL! Thanks for the patience this time around Ta2zz, last time I was here we had some issues.

I like to think we all rise above titles here, and the main reason I post is because I've met a few really cool people here and want to continue meeting good people. So I will show respect only when warranted. So far only you are worthy of this respect ta2zz. Weird how that worked out.

As for liking myself....hmmm....some days I do and others I don't. I do have enough common sense to keep my damn clothes on in public though ;\) With the exception of my avatar I don't go into public wearing tank tops anymore. I would be a hypocrite to wear tank tops because that would imply that I too am seeking attention from my body. I don't know ta2zz, I really don't...

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#26325 - 06/26/09 09:45 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: ]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
I dont care about ages, I care about intelligence and ability.

Life experiences you had, nope I dont really give a shit. You were in jail for a year, I hope you learned what lesson you needed to and wont repeat it.

So you know only 3 satanist in real life and only have 1 satanist as a friend. I believe you made my point.

I dont care about lttd, I was banned years ago from there.
I have to question how your mind works, if hate people you don't even know. I wouldn't waste the energy on something so stupid.

Nice answer in regards to the picture icon, you once again made my point. It is used as an ego boost reminder.

You dont know me or my standards to say the very least.

If you boss is a douche, you either tolerate it or leave.

As I said before, you make your own life. You make your choice and take responsibilty for your actions. You deserve whatever you want if you work at it, its your own life. As for protecting what you have, if the situation arises, I am sure that one will do everything they can to defend what is theirs.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#26330 - 06/27/09 01:19 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Morgan]
hellbent666
Unregistered



To clarify a few things....

I talk to one in the state i live in, a few online, and a few on the phone. I talk to one member that knew and was given his title as reverend by LaVey himself, even held pistols that LaVey owned at the time. Very cool guy but has gotten wise to the antics of the CoS. There is a reason I hate most of them, but apparently this is of no concern because unlike you I refuse to defend pieces of shit regardless of religious affiliation. There is rarely ever only one side to any given argument, often times there are 3.

I spent 20 months this last time in prison. The past six years have been spent in and out of county jail. I've done my time. Don't make it sound as if I didn't do anything because that is a lie. This is only relevant in life experiences and the study of the human beast. Life experiences that I wish everyone on the planet had to experience because it would either make you or break you. Guess which is the case with me ;\)

I have to agree with you Morgan on one thing. I don't know you. I have you pegged psychologically, but I don't know you at all. And honestly I want to keep it that way.

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#30419 - 10/10/09 11:13 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Miss May Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/27/09
Posts: 66
Loc: sebastopol, CA
The masses are repressed people. Satanists do not repress themselves, they're driven by desire. Satanists are a commodity. The difference is inevitable.
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#30478 - 10/13/09 04:37 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: rottingteeth]
ballbreaker Offline
member


Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 134
Loc: Toronto, Canada
 Originally Posted By: rottingteeth
the masses exist for the individual's amusement. they are the individual's source of income and entertainment, there to be taken advantage of and toyed with.


How godlike of you to articulate such a profound vision of "the masses", who must surely exist solely for the "individual's/i.e. your own" amusement.

I'm not sure if I should just say "there is no such thing as society" or what...I will suggest that the above quoted statement is typical pseudoSatanist nonsense (at least, I hope it's not indicative of the current state of Satanic thought).

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#86442 - 04/12/14 03:14 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: rottingteeth]
Ferox Offline
pledge


Registered: 12/19/13
Posts: 69
Loc: Adios!
Who decides what I deserve, you? I don’t think so. Myriads of nincompoops chase the same goals, read the same books, watch the same movies, apply the same strategies (against each other)…, it’s laughable. Preying upon scraps I throw away haha! Don’t lose that appetite boys and girls…, oink, oink.
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#86443 - 04/12/14 05:57 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Ferox]
334forwardspin Offline
member


Registered: 03/04/13
Posts: 509
Loc: Las Vegas,NV United States
What a person deserves, or does not deserve is an entirely subjective matter. Each person has their own standards for what makes a person deserve something. Sometimes, it may be a moral line of thinking 'if you punch me, you deserve to get punched', but depending on why they punched you, some may agree you deserved the punch in the first place. You may, or may not disagree with that. It may also be something based on 'you deserve it if you earn it'. This is usually the case in skill based roles or tests. You deserve the ability, if you attained it, the role if you showed that ability in a test, the win if you did better in that challenge, and the accomplishment status if your body of work reflects the skill.

However, it is also important to distinguish an idealistic view from a realistic one. In some cases, we have the power to enforce our will, and have what we feel is 'deserved' carried out. However, there are also times when this will not be the case.

Whether we feel that one does deserve what they can not protect or not, is irrelevant in the way the world works. If you can not protect something, you likely will not keep it. That's the problem with approaching the world too much by the basis of 'deserving', is that the world doesn't operate that way. I remember a case of a Norwegian diplomat imprisoned in the United Arab Emirates for 16 months for reporting a rape. By UAE law, 4 male witnesses must see a rape for it to constitute rape, and since that wasn't the case, she was prosecuted for extramarital sex.

Did she deserve what she got? In my view, not even close. However, that's how they do things. It would have been best to do some reading up on their customs before reporting it to the police. Believing you should be able to report the rape and have the perps punished doesn't mean it will happen. If it won't, there's no point, and if you get punished it's even worse.

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#86453 - 04/12/14 01:58 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: 334forwardspin]
Crake Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 34
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
Wow. I figure there would be Satanists on here who believed in and practised Black Magic, but I didn't think that Black Magic referred to Necromancy...

Anyway, interesting topic. Pretty cool it was revived, I suppose. It's a very generic question, but I'll try my best to answer it.

It's almost situational. Let's say I'm a hard worker who stays at work when needed, and goes in for over time work. I earn a lot of money because, well, I earn it - I deserve it. However, if I'm robbed, I lose some of that money, and have therefore failed to protect. Most people would agree that the robber does not deserve the money because he did not earn it.

Let's look at another situation. Let's say a MMA fighter wins a title by fluke, but realizes that when it is time for him to defend his new title, he will fail to protect it, and he will lose it. Most people would agree here that the MMA fighter in question does not deserve the title.

I suppose the answer to the question depends on fairness. However, that's another thing to discuss on its own.

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#86454 - 04/12/14 03:34 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Crake]
theharkonnen Offline
member


Registered: 12/03/13
Posts: 218
Well, if a bank takes one's money as they did in Cyprus, does that mean one failed to protect what is theirs? Is that not robbery? However, one cannot sue a bank either for doing this, since the lawyers of the bank will always win. So, is this failure to protect or is it being too screwed to be able to do anything.

But in this case, what can one do, other than take all their money out and store it somewhere other than a bank. But then comes the question that if one robs it from your house and you shoot them, will the law not persecute you for murder? Hence, why I prefer gun-friendly states, but the best policy is to keep it all a secret, telling no one and trusting no one.

See, this is the problem with anarchy, which many here seem to support. Anarchy is a dog eat dog world and one's lifespan is usually quite short. However, is it not more fair than any system we currently have in place? It would force everyone to become strong and the weak would become strong or be killed.

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#86466 - 04/12/14 09:37 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Crake]
334forwardspin Offline
member


Registered: 03/04/13
Posts: 509
Loc: Las Vegas,NV United States
 Originally Posted By: Crake

Let's look at another situation. Let's say a MMA fighter wins a title by fluke, but realizes that when it is time for him to defend his new title, he will fail to protect it, and he will lose it. Most people would agree here that the MMA fighter in question does not deserve the title.


Actually, you'd be surprised that most people think the opposite in my experience, with that situation. There is a great importance for many placed on coming through at the right time. To them, the MMA fighter showed up and the right time, outdid their opponent, and rightfully won that title. A lack of the ability to defend it would only mean that they are not champion for longer.

Sports actually are great examples of these concepts, because teams often win games, and players often win their individual match ups, for reasons other than actually being the superior team/player. They may just do better that day, maybe they just match up well with that one team/player, find a way to make their forte the focus of the game/match up and etc.

Some may say they do not deserve coveted things like championships for those reasons, but it happens. An idealistic world where the better competitor always wins is simply unrealistic, there are bound to be other factors involved. Thus, it is key to acknowledge these things and find a way to make them work for you, and look for your 'niche' and situations where it applies. That is a part of earning one's success as well.

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#94844 - 12/16/14 07:30 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: 334forwardspin]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
To revive this thread and add a little more to this discussion, I have this to add.

"Deserve" is a very subjective term and it's difficult to say what someone deserves in any objective manner unless you're imposing your moral perspective. From a Satanic viewpoint though, someone who cannot protect what they have should expect to lose it, and this brings up some interesting levels of nuance.

In my situation, I am reliant on the good will of other people, socialist welfare systems, free healthcare, etc. I have a place to sleep, plenty of food, all modern utilities, a nice computer, multiple games consoles, an expensive model collection for my wargaming hobby; and I go out regularly, socialise, eat out etc. I am living far beyond my means. How do I protect this? Though social persuasion.

Being "selfish" is, if there ever was such a thing, the primary tenet of Satanism. This doesn't need to be taken literally though, and can be understood far better as simoly understanding the importance of fundamental self-interest. For example; I protect my interests through social interaction. I have a wide circle of friends who I engage with regularly, and a strong family connection with relatives that I make time for. By doing this I create a support network of people who want to help me.

Only a few days ago I was doing pretty much this. I was at a friends house writing his CV and filling out his applications for new jobs. He's quite severly dyslexic and while spelling/grammar are not my strong points, with a spell-check I'm usually more than competent. I also paid for a take-away meal. This was easy for me. Typing at a computer is one of the few things I can do, and with my disability benefits I have some limited disposable income, enough that a take-away meal is hardly set to break the bank. The result is far more valuable. My friend will be more likely to further his career, he will be happier, he'll have more money, and he'll be willing to reciprocate when I need something. He already drives for me, often as much as 100 miles per week; granting me much independence.

The fact is, friendship and kindness are good tools for furthering not just yourself, but you social circle as a whole. There's also the emotional benefits. I enjoy seeing people I like, happy. I want to improve their lives and subsequently they wish the same for me. Why manipulate someone into helping you when you can make it such that they freely and genuinely want to help you? This is how I opperate.

On a wider scale, I keep active in politics and spread my political opinion where possible. I've convinced many people to change their vote and I hope that I can at least keep local systems such that I can still use them. This conversation alone is an example, trying to convince people that my method is not only morally kinder but also gets the results we want. I hope to spread my morals and political views through debate, and by doing so I protect my benefits, on which I'm reliant.

This is my take on this principal of Satanic thinking, though on the question of who "deserves" what, you can only ask yourself; Do I deserve what I have? Do you deserve what you have? We'll all have different answers but I aim to convince people that I do deserve what I get. I'd be interested in hearing what you all think of my approach.
_________________________
If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#94845 - 12/16/14 08:14 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: TornadoCreator]
Megatron Offline
active member


Registered: 08/22/14
Posts: 859
Loc: fuckit, some kid cracked my co...
The OP was certainly misinformed/uneducated/whatever about the complexities that exist among social creatures (as humans tend to be). So, is that social species somehow un-Satanic?

Not in the least. It's actually a vital part of what I term "the Wheel" and "the Next". Without these infrastructures we would no longer be able to benefit from the genius of Stephen Hawking. And that's just one guy doing theoretical physics for fun.

The concept of "rational self interest" came from Rand, who was pretty much a douchebag. She projected her personal failures onto her philosophy, which latter is nothing of value. Objectively speaking, of course.

To quote Jesus:

 Originally Posted By: Mediterranean Jew
When the strong man, fully armed, guards his own dwelling, his goods are safe. But when someone stronger attacks him and overcomes him, he takes from him his whole armour in which he trusted, and divides his spoils.


There's always someone that can kick your ass and take your shit. But that is no philosophy of society.
_________________________
You can't beat me, I'm a fucking Transformer (TM), dude.

Oh, and I spell everything right.

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#94846 - 12/16/14 10:09 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Megatron]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6789
Loc: Virginia
The Opie wasn't addressing a Philosophy of Society (which equates to what precisely anyway??) he was honing in on specific strengths. Even if you consider him to have been misinformed by his own perspective, you've just reinforced that these Systems are essential to personal survival. The Wheel, the Next, is a Nomian apparatus that we all buy lock, stock and barrel right? Why not go ahead and be an apologist for it? It makes it way more acceptable right? Way cooler!

Is brain-surgery only available to you through these infrastructures?

If the whole thing was shut down tomorrow, you don't think you can benefit from what you can take from the landscape, what you gain from holding knowledge, creating smaller networks and can take from others?

Before you get all sanctimonious about it. Don't we essentially steal ideas from one-another? Unless of course you think Hawking should hoard his ideas and only record them in a private journal? Why share that info in the first place?


If you can easily take my shit, do I deserve it in the first place? Let's get all uppity about owning 'ideas', copyright and trademark protection while we're at it too.

For context:


 Quote:
the masses exist for the individual's amusement. they are the individual's source of income and entertainment, there to be taken advantage of and toyed with.


Isn't this essentially capitalism in a nutshell? The Masses are just cash-cows which are sold the idea that they benefit from the infrastructure. All of which, isn't in the hands of 'the people' anyway, even if our beloved 'Republic' is supposed to work that way (with it's so-called Democratic system). It doesn't. Why are 'the people' prevented from creating their own infrastructure? Their own self-sustaining communities (right off the bat they are called compounds, cults, and other divisive lingo that otherizes them. They are OTHER, a part from THE infrastructure).

If Joe Shmoe accidentally discovers the cure for cancer, well then he's forced into a Social Contract to share that info. He owes it to all of humanity!



Don't believe me? Check out the cats out in in the California Desert. They aren't bothering anyone. They are on land no one else wants or needs, yet the 'Government' finds all sorts of bogus ordinances to boot them off the land (such as structures being eyesores to 'neighbors' 20+ miles away, it's in the social contract not to do that!) . Why? Because they can. If they can, do they deserve to be there in the first place? Seems to me that's the real question the Opie was addressing.

As Thus:

 Quote:


if people are going to allow themselves to be stupid enough to fall for tricks and gimmicks, then they deserve it.


Using the same example, these folks in Cali basically gathered, had their little town meeting, voiced their complaints, screamed from the roof-tops, got a little media exposure but ultimately - they got the boot.


 Quote:

all preventable, if they only cared to prevent it...if they don't even try, then they obviously don't care whether or not they are metiphorically raped. to say they do is foolishness.


They gave it a go. They cared enough to try. What stopped them from standing their ground? Fear of consequence. Fear of fines, fear of being jailed, fear of losing all their material belongings. Is that the philosophy of society you were referring to?


 Quote:


I ask you, does one deserve what one cannot protect?

(correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is a satanic point of view..)


Didn't he just cover Might is Right?
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#94847 - 12/16/14 11:27 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: SIN3]
Megatron Offline
active member


Registered: 08/22/14
Posts: 859
Loc: fuckit, some kid cracked my co...
The lady doth protest too much, I think.

Certainly, there are all kinds of vectors intersecting the "individual". Many of them relatively "unfriendly," so to speak.

==================

as a personal aside, I think we tend to just read things differently, Alison. And for me personally, that's what makes engaging you FUN.
_________________________
You can't beat me, I'm a fucking Transformer (TM), dude.

Oh, and I spell everything right.

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#94848 - 12/16/14 11:44 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Megatron]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6789
Loc: Virginia
Obviously, that could be said for just about every user that replied to the topic.


Protest too much? That's what you got?

Philosophy of Society is, what again? The social contract? The progression of our technological age? Apologetics? American Progress? What?

How does that yoke with what the Opie was laying down to discuss?

I guess it's easier to dismiss the guy as a misinformed ignoramous than to pick up the gauntlet. Eh?

So let's have some fun. Blow my mind.
_________________________
SINJONES.com

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#94849 - 12/16/14 12:33 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: SIN3]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
Honestly, is it even worth arguing the points that the OP raised as he posted this thread back in 2009, has made 9 posts, and hasn't been on since December 2009. Surely it's more conducive to an interesting discussion to approach the theme of the discussion in our own way and discuss those points rather than calling someone who's not here and doesn't care, an idiot or whatever...

Let's bring this thread back to basics. Rather than quoting texts or referencing what someone else has said, let's share our own opinions. With that I say simply this.

What is your stance on "ownership" and "power"? Do you agree with the claim "If one cannot defend what the have, they deserve to lose it", and if not/so why? Do you believe people have inherent rights? How do you interpret these issues and do you feel Satanism altered this interpretation for you?

We could make this quite engaging without digging up years old posts or rehashing the same points.
_________________________
If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#94852 - 12/16/14 02:10 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: TornadoCreator]
Brother Nihil Offline
member


Registered: 09/22/13
Posts: 181
[deleted]

Edited by Brother Nihil (12/16/14 02:45 PM)

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#94853 - 12/16/14 03:00 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: SIN3]
Megatron Offline
active member


Registered: 08/22/14
Posts: 859
Loc: fuckit, some kid cracked my co...
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
How does that yoke with what the Opie was laying down to discuss?

I guess it's easier to dismiss the guy as a misinformed ignoramous than to pick up the gauntlet. Eh?


If you re-read it, you'll see that it is incoherent at best. No wonder dude didn't hang around.

Again, I answered the proverbial "question," and I even quoted the Olive-skinned Carpenter.

In case you missed the bottom line:

ONE does not exist in isolation.
_________________________
You can't beat me, I'm a fucking Transformer (TM), dude.

Oh, and I spell everything right.

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#94855 - 12/16/14 03:27 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Megatron]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6789
Loc: Virginia
But that's not answering the question directly. It's skirt-tailing the issue.

Do you deserve what you can not protect?
_________________________
SINJONES.com

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#94857 - 12/16/14 04:03 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: SIN3]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Do you deserve what you can not protect?


I think that's the wrong question in all honesty. "Deserve" is subjective, and "protect" can also be subjective. Do people living in fascist countries deserve to be subjugated because they cannot protect their freedom and livelihood? Does someone born disabled deserve to be taken advantage of because they cannot protect their own interests? If you're answering yes to these things quite frankly you're an immoral arsehole who's opinion I don't value. The answer is clearly 'No'. But the question is wrong.

"Deserving" and "Expecting" are not the same. You should expect to be mugged in a rough neighbourhood and where possible make changes to minimise the risk, but you certainly don't deserve to be mugged.

Far more interesting a question is this; What methods do you use to protect your self interests, and do you feel it's enough to protect your property, wealth, power, influence, and social standing? Are you simply lucky/unlucky or have you worked bloody hard to achieve what others have almost by default, and does this effect the value you give it, the vigor with which you protect it, or your appreciation of it? These are far more interesting and nuanced questions, more deserving of our time.
_________________________
If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#94859 - 12/17/14 02:17 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: TornadoCreator]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
"Nobody expects the Spanish inquisition"
- The Spanish Inquisition

Joking aside, deserving can be a strong word to be used here. Nobody deserves anything yet everybody may be (feeling) entitled to everything. This means that everyone is deserving of what they own or achieve on par that they deserve to lose if there's a failure to keep or uphold. The vigour to protect or maintain their success(es) not withstanding. Some people are just more "lucky" and/or endowed than others.
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Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#94860 - 12/17/14 04:43 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: SIN3]
Megatron Offline
active member


Registered: 08/22/14
Posts: 859
Loc: fuckit, some kid cracked my co...
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
But that's not answering the question directly. It's skirt-tailing the issue.


Not really, it's called nuance.

 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Do you deserve what you can not protect?


The problem lies in the word "deserve". It presupposes some kind of unwritten law of nature similar to the usage of the term "right". To answer directly, no, there is no inherent right to life, let alone possession.

However, human beings are not leopards, and we don't have to drag our kills up trees to protect them from hyenas. At least those of us who inhabit societies do not. Those of us still clinging to the more animalistic and/or sociopathic tendencies might have some issue with this reality, but they are a minority.

Natural law (Lex Satanae) differs in application according to the species in question. Those species with more communal/societal inclination will create for themselves a network of interactive protection, so to speak.

But anywho, I'm tired of trying to talk apples to your manufactured oranges, and I don't see the world in black/white contrast. Just to bring the opie into focus as incoherent, let me give you a question that illustrates the silliness:

Did you "deserve" to get stung by that bee?

No nuance, just yes or no.

See my point yet?


Edited by Megatron (12/17/14 04:45 AM)
Edit Reason: undid an adverb in favor of an adjective
_________________________
You can't beat me, I'm a fucking Transformer (TM), dude.

Oh, and I spell everything right.

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#94865 - 12/17/14 09:33 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Megatron]
SIN3 Offline
stalker


Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6789
Loc: Virginia
Perhaps another contextual example?

I agree, that no man is an Island even if we can withdraw from habitual interaction. What I'm not agreeing with here, is the idea of this Social Contract, this so-called philosophy that we cooperate and that these societal infrastructures are essential to survival.

If you neglect your kids, fail to protect them from detrimental influences and harm - doesn't society tell you that you don't deserve them? Don't they send some agency to snatch them away from you until such time you prove otherwise? Some people never get their kids back and they are thrown into the thralls of a system that presumes to know better.

 Quote:
he problem lies in the word "deserve". It presupposes some kind of unwritten law of nature similar to the usage of the term "right". To answer directly, no, there is no inherent right to life, let alone possession.


Word games, really? So which is it? Does language have meaning within the context of the society in which you live, or are these words just arbitrary?

The Opie was clear, deserving was placed within a context. It wasn't ambiguous at all, in spite of your attempt to turn apples into oranges.

Come correct or be gone.
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#94867 - 12/17/14 11:16 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: SIN3]
Megatron Offline
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 Originally Posted By: SIN3
The Opie
 Originally Posted By: Opie
the masses exist for the individual's amusement. they are the individual's source of income and entertainment, there to be taken advantage of and toyed with.

if people are going to allow themselves to be stupid enough to fall for tricks and gimmicks, then they deserve it.

all preventable, if they only cared to prevent it...if they don't even try, then they obviously don't care whether or not they are metiphorically raped. to say they do is foolishness.



I ask you, does one deserve what one cannot protect?

was clear, deserving was placed within a context. It wasn't ambiguous at all, in spite of your attempt to turn apples into oranges.

Come correct or be gone.



LOL. Really?

The idea presented in the now immediately quoted opie defines "deserving" rather petulantly and without real translational ability. The same quote might has well have been uttered by a convicted child molester. And no, I'm not trippin,' read it again.
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#94868 - 12/17/14 11:28 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Megatron]
SIN3 Offline
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Yes really.

I guess it's easier to just claim it was without real translational ability. Fuck it, just make up new words and bam - you're around the rosie.

#Ringer
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#94872 - 12/17/14 01:59 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: SIN3]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Deserve is really just shorthand for 'can acquire and protect'. All other tangents are meaningless language games.
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#94878 - 12/18/14 05:35 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: SIN3]
Megatron Offline
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Registered: 08/22/14
Posts: 859
Loc: fuckit, some kid cracked my co...
 Originally Posted By: SIN3
I guess it's easier to just claim it was without real translational ability. Fuck it, just make up new words and bam - you're around the rosie.


New words? Although I have done such a thing, I wasn't doing it here. Perhaps you mean "concepts unfamiliar to you".

Try:

"translational ability" =df. applicability to the full range offered by the domain.

With both "domain" and "range" being concepts borrowed from mathematics.

In other words, if you can't apply something (in this case, a definition) to the full range supported by the parsing, then it ceases to be a meaningful construct.

Like I said, Opie wrote a piece of drivel that might has well have been a defense of child molestation. It certainly wasn't anything with translational ability. I.e. it has no value as an independent conceptualization of "deserve/s"

So again, the Opied question was not clear in and of itself, and such things are a bit more nuanced than you might wish.

 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Deserve is really just shorthand for 'can acquire and protect'. All other tangents are meaningless language games.


Not really. I'll ask you the same thing I asked Alison:

Did you deserve to get stung by that bee?

Notice that your definition doesn't really hold up when substituted term for term. Unless, of course, you "acquire and protect" bee stings.

Yeah, language games.
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#94883 - 12/18/14 10:54 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Megatron]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
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Loc: Virginia
Are you sure you're understanding what you're reading here?

Words are just carriers. My point is, you could even make up a new word to carry the message and if the message is bogus its still bogus. I wasn't saying that YOU had already made up a new word.

So while you're hung up on one particular word, that doesn't exactly clear the message. It's obvious not Ambiguous as you claim what the opie was getting at here.

Going back to previous examples I've provided, if you can't protect your kids do you deserve them?

Say I'm a serial kidnapper, I break into your crib and take your kids to be sold on the black market. Did you deserve them in the first place if you can't protect them? Maybe they'd be better off in the sex trade.
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#94918 - 12/19/14 01:22 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: SIN3]
Megatron Offline
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Registered: 08/22/14
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 Originally Posted By: SIN3
Are you sure you're understanding what you're reading here? [. . .] So while you're hung up on one particular word, that doesn't exactly clear the message. It's obvious not Ambiguous as you claim what the opie was getting at here. [/qutoe]

As I said, the applicability is morally meaningless. But we're gtting to that right now . . .

[quote=SIN3] Going back to previous examples I've provided, if you can't protect your kids do you deserve them?

Say I'm a serial kidnapper, I break into your crib and take your kids to be sold on the black market. Did you deserve them in the first place if you can't protect them? Maybe they'd be better off in the sex trade.


Sure, and as I've said (quoting Jesus, no less), there is always someone who can take your lunch money. No matter who the fuck you are. But that was twenty posts ago, and certainly you weren't paying any kind of attention.

In other words, even if I grant you your retarded concept of "deserves," nobody deserves anything via the same logic.

And before you go patting yourself on the back,

a) you never made said point, and

b) this proves my initial claim regarding the philosophical incoherence of Opie.
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#95064 - 12/26/14 01:25 PM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
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 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
Deserve is really just shorthand for 'can acquire and protect'. All other tangents are meaningless language games.



Indeed.

The 'deserve' label is little more than semantics. If you drop and an egg on the floor does it "deserve" to break? No, that is simply the natural outcome of eggs hitting the floor. Does the slow antelope "deserve" to be eaten?

All of human history is one of subjugation and domination. You are either pitching or catching. Every dog has his day. Some days your the windshield and some days your the bug. And so on, and so forth, ad nauseam.
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#95126 - 12/28/14 08:02 AM Re: does one deserve what one cannot protect? [Re: Megatron]
SIN3 Offline
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Registered: 05/14/13
Posts: 6789
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: Megatron


Sure, and as I've said (quoting Jesus, no less), there is always someone who can take your lunch money. No matter who the fuck you are. But that was twenty posts ago, and certainly you weren't paying any kind of attention.


C'mon now, of course I read your post and I was paying attention I just happen to disagree that the message is incoherent and retarded.

 Quote:


In other words, even if I grant you your retarded concept of "deserves," nobody deserves anything via the same logic.


Again, it's just a semantics issue. The framing was in the context of praxis of Satanism so again it wasn't ambiguous. If you're not smart enough to secure your shit, then you don't deserve to have it. Period.


 Quote:

And before you go patting yourself on the back,

a) you never made said point, and

b) this proves my initial claim regarding the philosophical incoherence of Opie.



I'm guessing you are treating this like some sort of competition, I am not. I am treating it like an engagement in conversation.

I don't see that your point was proven, only that you've got nothing else but Semantics.
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