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#24557 - 05/13/09 09:50 PM I'm ashamed....(graphic content)
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
...of the abuse of prisoners at Abu Gharib. But not for the reasons you might think. I'm actually ashamed and disappointed that what seemed to have occurred most frequently at the prison was blatantly homo-erotic humiliation. I mean, seriously, couldn't we have come up with something better than this? Making naked men sit on each other? Handcuffing naked prisoners to the bars?





Now, I know Muslim men have to be the most homophobic group of people on the planet right now, so I can understand why this would be demoralizing to them. But still, you'd think they'd at least get more creative with the "torture". All of this just makes US soldiers look like fucking queers, despite the fact that women are also posing in these photos. Where are all the famous waterboarding pictures? Let's see some electrocution! Better yet, how about we string up the little bastard that took these pics, which almost singlehandedly provoked the scorn and anger of millions of Muslims. Yes, let's give them more reasons to strap bombs on themselves and blow up innocent civilians in marketplaces and tour buses.

Hey, if we're going to piss them off, let's at least do it in a way that doesn't involve men on men, hairy balls and asses. Standards, people, standards. I'm sure that a whole hell of a lot more actual "torture" went on behind closed doors, and while there might be photos of them somewhere, I doubt the Pentagon will be giving those up any time soon.

I'm all for torture, but only when it elicits viable information, not to be used as a reason for a photo-op.

*shakes head in disgust*
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#24558 - 05/13/09 09:58 PM Re: I'm ashamed....(graphic content) [Re: Nemesis]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3812
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
How can you be ashamed of something you in no way supported or participated in? Responsibility to the responsible and all that.

Anyway, I think there are plenty more uses for torture aside from extracting information. Demoralization (in a wartime situation) or just plain gleeful revenge come to mind.

I do agree that the homoeroticism really makes the american military look bad. But to be realistic, in the eyes of the world community their image has already pretty much hit bottom.

Everything embarrassing they do now is just redundant \:\)
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#24560 - 05/13/09 10:10 PM Re: I'm ashamed....(graphic content) [Re: Dan_Dread]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Well, you know what I mean by "ashamed"...I was being a wee bit sarcastic when I used that term...I'd say more like disappointed, definitely. You should know me better than that Dan...when am I ever ashamed of anything?

What good does demoralization do when you're using it on prisoners who are shuttered from the outside world? And who are you demoralizing? Farmers? Truck drivers? Gimme a break. Especially when evidence of the above works against your mission? That's just really shooting yourself in the foot. These pics reminded me of "Harold & Kumar: Escape From Guantanamo Bay".

Cockmeat sandwich, anyone?
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#24562 - 05/13/09 10:29 PM Re: I'm ashamed....(graphic content) [Re: Nemesis]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3812
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Well, I didn't know what you meant then! It is out of character for you to be all ashamed and whatnot though. \:\)

When I spoke of demoralization I was speaking less of the actual prisoners being tortured than their countrymen in arms. Those ones would probably be scared shitless to be captured(or fight at all) when they hear exactly what happens to poor motherfuckers that get caught.
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#24566 - 05/13/09 10:55 PM Re: I'm ashamed....(graphic content) [Re: Dan_Dread]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
It was just stupid.
Very stupid, for a bunch of reasons.

First, no photos of torture events. Thats the stupidiest thing ever, a picture postcard of how dumb you are.

Second, repeated torture doesn't work, the human body adapts and it doesn't mean anything anymore. One guy got waterboarded 283 times. Shit, after the 5th time, it doesnt mean anything. He knows your not going to kill him, and he is just going to be late with his prayers.

Third, some people ENJOY torture. That means they like the electroshocks, the penis abuse, the forced homoerotisim, and the verbal abuse.

Fourth, pictures of them conspiring with the enemy tortures them. Meaning, put them in a suit, show them eating with their captors, show that they caved into the USA. This demoralizes their fellow uncaptured terrorists, and turns the prisioners into weak willed individuals verses martyers in their countryman's eyes. Even if they do not give up information, it will appear that they did.

Fifth, if you are going to torture, do it right. Use one as an example, and let the other watch from indivdual rooms. Seeing and hearing someone else tortured, will convince them to open their mouths if they think they will never get out of the room alive.

Morgan
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#24572 - 05/14/09 12:03 AM Re: I'm ashamed....(graphic content) [Re: Morgan]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
I doubt that most of the men being tortured secretly enjoyed it out of some repressed masochism.

But I do agree that it's not as effective when it's obvious that they're not going to kill them. We're the U-S of frickin' A here. 283 times? Christ, I would have given up after 30.

Well, Nemesis, keep in mind that the grunts doing the torture and humiliation aren't creative geniuses here. They're a bunch of stupid morons who weren't intelligent enough to remember not to take pictures of themselves illegally humiliating inmates.

Maybe you can get in touch with the military and give them a few tips on some more effective torture tactics.

EDIT:

On a further note, I would like to bring attention to the following article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/us/politics/14photos.html?ref=global-home

Basically, the Obama administration has decided at the last minute to halt the release of the "torture photos" documenting abuse and interrogative torture employed on prisoners under the military's watch. Their reason? "Because they might inflame anti-American feelings abroad".

Really? It's not like they can just shove the whole "torture" thing under the carpet now that it might be inflammatory. The whole world knows it, and now "they" will just say something along the lines of "The American's torture was so horrible that they covered it up", or portray the censorship as an act of dishonesty or weakness.

No, it's not the end of the world. I just wish the people up on top would stick to their guns.

Besides, I give them a month before the photos are all leaked out on the internet. I bet the freedom-of-information watchdog groups are all pacing ravenously around the situation, waiting for some leaked morsel to slip out.




Edited by The Zebu (05/14/09 12:52 AM)
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#24580 - 05/14/09 08:32 AM Re: I'm ashamed....(graphic content) [Re: Nemesis]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
"Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato

Before we get too judgmental, let us not forget The Events that Got Us Here.


And, the inevitable outcome: The Reality of War

I don't know about you, but from my point of view, war can seem pretty chaotic. 'Right' and 'wrong' - irrelevant. Might is Right. Natural Law - Tooth and Claw.

All the same, when directly axed in an April 09 news conference about waterboarding and torture, Obama was (as usual) not able to give a direct answer. The full transcript can be found here: http://features.csmonitor.com/politics/2009/04/29/president-obamas-news-conference-full-text/

What he does not say speaks volumes. It is clear that 'enhanced interrogation' did, in fact, provide useful intel that would not have been obtained by any other means. If it did not, he would have just said so. At least I give him credit for not making a bold faced lie. He could have just said given a simple "yes" or "no" instead of dancing around the issue for 15 minutes.

Whats more, it would seem that waterboarding is just a teaser. We are 'just now' learning that 'other' even more aggressive methods 'may' have been used. Of course, now Obama is back peddling on his promise to get to the bottom of 'detainee abuse' and looks as though he may not be releasing all the details after all. Hmmm, I wonder why?....

What Would Patton Do?

Never the less, I would personally argue that we should close all of these detention facilities and we should not be taking any prisoners. Anyone still making Zyclon B?
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#24582 - 05/14/09 09:10 AM Re: I'm ashamed....(graphic content) [Re: Fist]
love.light.peace Offline
Trolling Hippy
stranger


Registered: 05/08/09
Posts: 22
I'd feel ashamed if it was my country that had perpetrated such childish acts. I agree that it is part of the inhumanity of war but why did it have to be so gay?
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#24590 - 05/14/09 01:11 PM Re: I'm ashamed....(graphic content) [Re: Nemesis]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3118
I'm a "don't know, don't care" type of man.
The guys sitting on each other naked is bad? Is that torture?
Hell, if I had to choose between sitting around naked with other people or the painfull waterboarding, my descision would be made fast...

If that is torture, then the torturers are bad... VERY BAD. I know other things which have a better psychological and physical impact.


Edited by Dimitri (05/14/09 01:11 PM)
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#24596 - 05/14/09 04:22 PM Re: I'm ashamed....(graphic content) [Re: Nemesis]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
It's a bit tacky I admit, a bunch of naked guys, some snapshots and you easily get the impression you are having a peek inside the dark room of the Blue Oyster Bar.

But I assume it is not too different from the treatment many got when being arrested by the Mukhabarat. The only difference that, in those days, probably very few lived to tell.

It's not that I do approve of torture but on the other hand, if I look at what is going on daily -ranging from cutting off body parts like lips or penises of kids in Africa to the silly stoning of girls in the Middle-East I can not come to another conclusion that their cultures could easily be described as retarded. It's not the violence that disgusts me as much as it is the sheer stupidity of many in those nations. The problem we Westerners have is that we would like to export our culture there but forgot how that is done. We like to convince them in a manner that is nice and friendly -civilized one could say-. And we prefer our wars to be as such too, but war has very little to do with being civilized.
War is about getting your goals at whatever cost required. It's not about collateral damage, it's about bloody mass murder. And maybe that is what this world needs, over the top behavior. Like the Romans did; you go in, kick their asses, adapt them to your needs, allow what is beneficial and if they at one point think they have balls again, go in and remove them. After all, this got us Westerners where we are, why not share it with them out there.

Btw, this picture is to me the photo of the decade. It's like some strange mixture of Jesus, a prophet on his box and a scarecrow stating "get the fuck off my field!" This is what we Westerners are/were about.



D.

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#24597 - 05/14/09 05:23 PM Re: I'm ashamed....(graphic content) [Re: Diavolo]
Bacchae Offline
Satan's White Trash Neighbor
member


Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 438
Loc: los angeles
waaah waaah waaaah.
i am just suprised that so many people thought a military superpower with an extensive network of covert operatives reaching into our early history did NOT use coercive interrogation techniques. is the public that naive?
every powerful society has/will/does use every means possible.

me old pappy used to tell me things that happened in The 'Nam that have stayed with until this day. Im sure at least one other member here has direct knowledge of similar situations.

politically I dont think obama should release the information. realistically, americans need to wake up. we torture people in war, and our presidents even occasionally have sex with porky interns.

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#24598 - 05/14/09 05:47 PM Re: I'm ashamed....(graphic content) [Re: Bacchae]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Indeed.

Anyways, we Westerners were the most successful violent bunch on the planet and all the progress we have is driven by our culture. Yes other cultures contributed too and many did follow our example after being exposed to us but if it wasn't for that violent expansion, we'd probably still be washing our asses in a creek and eating tree bark for dinner. We tend to forget that, or maybe even believe the Leftist doctrine that it is something to be ashamed about. And if we forget it a bit more and domesticate ourselves a bit further, we might end up being in that creek again.

D.

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#24599 - 05/14/09 06:17 PM Re: I'm ashamed....(graphic content) [Re: Bacchae]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Bacchae

me old pappy used to tell me things that happened in The 'Nam that have stayed with until this day. Im sure at least one other member here has direct knowledge of similar situations.


To quote Sgt. Shultz from Hogan's Heroes... "I know nothinggggg!"

But Bacchae's right. We had "Air America" planes where I was at. You didn't see them, even though they were there for all to see. You didn't say they were CIA, although everyone knew they were CIA. You didn't see them take two suspected VC for nice plane ride over the jungles and only one come back.

The reason that the homoeroticism of Abu Grhaib shocks us is because we don't have the same sexual taboos for the most part, as most of the Arab world. But in the Arab world, one of the most stigmatizing things in the world is homosexuality, and the touching of unclean body secretions. One technique that TRAINED interrogators used was to have a woman question the men. Women in most Islamic cultures DO NOT question men. The women would wear low cut blouses and short skirts. Women in most Islamic countries DO NOT wear revealing clothing. In at least one incidence, a female interrogator did (or simulated the act) placed menstrual blood on the face of a man she was interrogating. This is a damning taboo for many men in the Islamic world.

Now... for the troops at Abu Grhaib. These were NOT specifically trained US Army troops. These were Reservists with very little training in prisoner care and even less in interrogations. The "torture" at the prison did not start until the civilian plain-clothes operatives (some say Blackwater and some say CIA) came to them and told them to "soften them up." They were given incidents of humiliation and of morale destroying situations that could be used. "Torture..." pretty subjective in this case, although a case can be made for stress postures, sleep deprivation, dog intimidation (used by tactical police the world over), etc. But these are not MILITARY techniques, for the most part, they are civilian techniques imparted to mid and lower grade soldiers, doing a job they were not trained for and specifically indoctrinated in the concept of following one's orders. Were they WRONG? I would say so as a professional military man who has been trained in the difference between a lawful and unlawful order. I don't know if they were.

Could I have found ways to torture more effectively? Hell, people, I have tortured... uh, disciplined... some of my wayward troops in legal ways that were more harsh. Is marching a troop back and forth in the hot sun for four or five hours in his dress uniform torture? Ever had to do it? Is making a troop lug four cargo tie down chains (each weighs 25-35 pounds) to aircraft in the hot sun or the cold rain torture? Ever done it? Military discipline can be harsh, even if applied to help a troop to become better. Ask any GI who went through basic training between the 40's and the mid 70's.

Was it the military's finest hour? No. Was it its worst? No. Was it something that could be expected? Sure. Throw young, untrained people into the company of experienced civilians placed in positions of authority, agendized and believing that they were there to teach the damned Arabs a lesson, and yeah. I'm surprised it wasn't worse.
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#24602 - 05/14/09 09:59 PM Re: I'm ashamed....(graphic content) [Re: Jake999]
Nightmare Offline
pledge


Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 58
Loc: San Antonio TX
War is a sick thing pieces of led are shot at each other and bombs are made to destroy each other it is nasty and it is wrong... However all parts of war should be known and accepted for what they are.
Not only is this torture necessary but also the right thing to do but I agree they aren't doing it right.
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#24605 - 05/14/09 10:26 PM Re: I'm ashamed....(graphic content) [Re: Jake999]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Well said Jake.

However, I would offer a few caveats.

All of the Abu Gaib nonsense appears to be straight out of the SERE C POI ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival,_Evasion,_Resistance_and_Escape ). While many US soldiers have gone though this course it is unlikely the Army Reserve jailers had any familiarity with SERE C techniques. SERE C is mostly reserved for Special Forces and other special troops with high risk assignments.

I would argue that the jailers were in fact acting without authorization, but were only using techniques that someone else had directed them to use in the past. It was little more than 'monkey-see-monkey-do.' In all likelihood, professionals from outside the DoD were in Abu Gaib using these techniques. The jailers were just 'funnin' with Haji to break up the monotony.

One thing that has always struck me as odd is how worked up people get about Abu Gaib. When one of these savages cut off somebodies head on TV you never here the same outcry. Why?
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