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#24777 - 05/18/09 11:24 PM Where to ramble?
Mercury_Templar Offline
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Registered: 09/16/07
Posts: 262
Loc: Cabarita, Vic, Australia
Where is modern Magick going? I see a number of strains, most apparently progressive, but none entirely fulfilling. I am not saying that all modern Magick, whatever the form may be, is deficient, but there has not been any real progression in the past 50 years, that I can see. Perhaps this is not a bad thing though, because there have been some dreadful attempts at development and abridging.

From Buckland and Gardner's watered down version of Golden Dawn practises being packaged with British/European superstition, through to Carroll's regurgitation and plagiarism, I can extract very little of any real worth. It seems people are either continuing with the WMT the way it is (which ironically appears to be the most progressive), MacDonaldizing what should not be condensed, or describing the tradition from a modern perspective. I like the first idea and I see merit in the third, but simplifying something beyond any real use to make it easier to understand is just plain retarded.

Even Chaos Magick, which initially had promise due to the enthusiasm of the practitioners, has degenerated into two camps – one as useless as the other; the first being those that wallow in directionless subjectivism, the second being those that realize what they are peddling has all been done before (AOS). The sad thing is, some of the later don't even realize until everyone else around them has. How amusing the fall-out from The Ice Wars has been.

Now I know many people involved in each of the modern movements, some personally most not, and I get the feeling that if they were honest with themselves they would agree with me.

Where do I stand? I guess that has changed over the years, but my 'safe place' has always been the core of the fundamental WMT.

What say anyone?

M.'.T.'.
_________________________
ATEH
MALKUTH
VE-GEBURAH
VE-GEDULAH
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#24789 - 05/19/09 03:06 AM Re: Where to ramble? [Re: Mercury_Templar]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
WARNING!!!!!!
If you dont have a clue about what follows dont jump in with your 2 cents. Seriously!!!!

Yes, the Ice magic wars had some fall out. Recently some idiot tried to start something again but since some people are dead and others made peace, it is pointless.

Yes, a lot of the results of the last 50+ years have ended up in the Chaos Magick doorstep. Some find their way there, others get pushed along the way. There are some camps still active doing stuff. Just a little more low key flying under the radar because there are so many idiots running around. Vegas has a great guy that I met doing work out there. One of my other friends is running around east asis, and germany has a new group being more active.

There are still a lot of active people, just most are laying low because they are waiting to see what happens next. I think people are looking for a leader of character much like what we had in the past.

Yes, a lot of stuff has been duplicated or mutated, but from the past we must learn or be doomed to repeat it. When you look to the past, there is so much knowledge, and to condence it, to make it more understandable is not a pain in the ass to those that get "IT", but to those that don't, trying to explain it is almost impossible. Thus why the Mcdonalds of the occult world florish.

There is people, places and good things out there, its just that sometimes networking can be a bitch unless you push it. Honestly, sometimes I get tired of it too, but you can't be afraid of who you are and what you know. You just have to move forward.

Morgan
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Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#24792 - 05/19/09 03:19 AM Re: Where to ramble? [Re: Mercury_Templar]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
Where is modern Magick going? I see a number of strains, most apparently progressive, but none entirely fulfilling. I am not saying that all modern Magick, whatever the form may be, is deficient, but there has not been any real progression in the past 50 years, that I can see.

Progression to me is my very own evolution in becoming more aware of myself, my surroundings and the manipulation of it. Maybe there is no "new leader" neccesary.
Modern magick is alive and well, it is only stagnating a bit. Wait a few decades untill new things on psychological level are being discovered, find and apply it.

Perhaps everything is already written and that you as a person has come to the limits of the knowledge, being it very hard to find something "new".


Edited by Dimitri (05/19/09 03:22 AM)
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#24812 - 05/20/09 12:21 AM Re: Where to ramble? [Re: Dimitri]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
If something is stagnating, it is only a few steps from dying off. My point was that it is not, it has just gone kinda underground due to idiots and time wasters.

"Wait a few decades"
WTF, are you fucking kidding me????

"Perhaps everything is already written and that you as a person has come to the limits of the knowledge, being it very hard to find something "new"."

Eveything is not already written. There is no limit to knowledge. The limit is the one you put on yourself.

Asking for information or a new direction when puzzled is not a bad thing. Sometimes a different perspective is all you need.

Shit......

Honestly, you wrote the worse line ever....
"Wait a few decades..."

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#24814 - 05/20/09 03:15 AM Re: Where to ramble? [Re: Morgan]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
Honestly, you wrote the worse line ever....
"Wait a few decades..."

Not that worse, most things that are discovered are kept silent for a few years before being introduced to the masses. This goes for almost all branches: psychology, biology, chemistry.
Sometimes a little piece of the curtain is lifted up for scientists, psychologists,.. to discuss and investigate it.

Some things in the DSM were considered to be an illness caused by certain factors just because they weren't sure about it. Few years after some intensive investigation they changed it..
As an example: homosexuality was considered an illness in the very beginning of the manuel..

You can even compare it with the certain art periods like "Renaissance" or "Romanticism".. People simply didn't know what was going on, terms were given later on. As if a Neaderthal man knew he lived in the Prehistory..or as if someone from 1100AC knew he was living in the middle-ages. Names are given after a period of time.. sone say these are the modern times or "the age of enlightment", but it is possible that within a few decades the period will be called otherwise.. And ofcourse followed by people who will describe the average citizen typical for this age together with the art forms and so on..

 Quote:
Eveything is not already written. There is no limit to knowledge. The limit is the one you put on yourself.

True, I perhaps should have written that it's just getting hard to find something "new" and interesting for the person self.


Edited by Dimitri (05/20/09 03:20 AM)
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#24815 - 05/20/09 04:02 AM Re: Where to ramble? [Re: Dimitri]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
This is getting off topic....

Honestly, if you feel that you are stuck...

GO INTO A BOOK STORE!!!!!!!

There is so much stuff out there. If you can't go out, join a bookclub on line. Shit, usually you can get a few free books to join.

Fuck, I expect better from you, and you should expect more from yourself.


Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#24828 - 05/20/09 03:02 PM Re: Where to ramble? [Re: Morgan]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
I don't think that's quite what he's getting at, dear. Besides, most books on magic in stores these days are made of shit and fail.

The "occult scene" goes through stagnancy every so often that can last up to several decades. Either wait it out, or take the burden upon yourself and become the next Crowley/Grant/Spare/LaVey/Carroll/Whathaveyou.

In the long run though, I don't really care. Magic is something personal to me, and I do it my own way. In my opinion, reading most occult books is like reading a book on how to masturbate.


Edited by The Zebu (05/20/09 03:03 PM)
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#24829 - 05/20/09 04:47 PM Re: Where to ramble? [Re: The Zebu]
Mercury_Templar Offline
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Registered: 09/16/07
Posts: 262
Loc: Cabarita, Vic, Australia
Thanks Morgan. You are getting what I am driving at.

I will just respond in general to all comments made. I agree, there are still some great practitioners out there – flying low so as to avoid those that would warp the work; most of whom claim to understand the elements of individuality within TGW but then blind more than just themselves with their arrogance – read: I make my own Magick and it is awesomeness. I do appreciate Kupperman and Hine but I feel Jaq D and so on are selling-out big time.

As far as stagnation is concerned, I am not sure that is correct. There is always motion, but sometimes it is circular. Perhaps this is not a bad thing. People eventually realising TGW is a cycle of evolution rather than linear. This is why I see the naivety in the current psychological exploration of Magick – and no, we do not have to wait decades for it. When pneumatic pumps were invented, people used this model for describing how the mind, ergo Magick, worked; when people started coining psychological terms, they were then used to explain Magick; hell, now that IT is the norm we find people using this model to explore Magick. I just find the core values have never changed. Some people realise this, most do not.

Perhaps I am wrong – mayhap there is real progression, I am just blind to it. I guess I am just losing some element of respect for those that make a very public effort to move things along, then turn out to be seriously lacking in wisdom.

M.'.T.'.
_________________________
ATEH
MALKUTH
VE-GEBURAH
VE-GEDULAH
LE-OLAM
AMEN

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#24830 - 05/20/09 05:41 PM Re: Where to ramble? [Re: Mercury_Templar]
Saligia Offline
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Registered: 05/03/09
Posts: 37
Loc: Manchester, England
 Originally Posted By: Mercury_Templar

Perhaps I am wrong – mayhap there is real progression, I am just blind to it. I guess I am just losing some element of respect for those that make a very public effort to move things along, then turn out to be seriously lacking in wisdom.

M.'.T.'.


I'm not sure magic really progresses at all. As far as I can tell all that changes over time are the rituals in question and the terminology.
With regards to ritual magic, all that has changed over the last few thousand years is that rituals have become dedicated more to the individual than the community. Perhaps this is due to the way western society has evolved rather than the way magical practice itself has evolved. For example, your average tribal shaman/priest may have performed his ritual in order to help crops grow/smite his tribe's enemies or ease a villager's sickness. This sort of practice occurred worldwide in various forms (even the christian priests believed that they could cast out the wicked and determine innocence via ritual, they would have been loathe to call their practices magical however) until the industrialisation of the western world.
As a side effect of industrialisation, ritual magic became far more personal and people are applying it less and less to their communities and are instead using it to achieve their own ends. These days magic in the western world is used almost exclusively for the benefit of the self. It doesn't matter whether it's a satanist or a chaos magician who accept that their rituals are intended to aid themselves in some manner or if it's a wiccan who pretends to help others while secretly hoping for a karmic reward. Historically speaking, all of these self-serving magicians would have been looked down on, feared and sometimes persecuted.
In addition to the change of focus in regards to the application of magic, there is a gradual alteration in the idea of what magic actually is. Traditionally speaking, magic was almost exclusively the domain of gods and spirits, human magicians simply invoked the entity in question to enact the caster's will. Now, magic is commonly looked upon as being the manipulation of vital energies. Whether the energy invoked is the caster's Chi or the power of the elements/abyss makes little difference as it is simply different terminology for the same core principle as you quite rightly said.
I realise I'm rambling a little, it's just difficult to put into words what it is I'm trying to convey. Essentially it is my belief that magic has never really changed at all, it's only the manner in which practitioners have employed it that changes. For this reason there is no real need for something new other than to titillate the imagination and make magic something fresh and exciting again.
Personally I find that simply taking a different approach to each ritual performed is quite an effective way of keeping magic from becoming bland. There is nothing wrong with casting your spells via your own vital energies for one ritual and casting a spell by invoking the name of a demon/angel/whatever for your next if by doing so you keep the vitality in your rituals. The key component to the ritual is desire and in my mind it doesn't matter how that desire is incorporated into the ritual.

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#24844 - 05/21/09 01:28 AM Re: Where to ramble? [Re: Saligia]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
Magic is focused on pleasing the self "These days"? Read the ancient Greek magical papyri- half the incantations are focused towards getting into women's pants.

First, magic was a form of religious devotion, then became the selfish sorcery of the laity, and long afterwards the hermeticists and renaissance mages tried to turn it into an abstract science of the divine. Modern magic is essentially a combination of all these purposes. Chaos Magic is one of the only new viewpoint on the subject, which seems to turn magic into a sort of psychonautic drug, used as a tool for any cause, from psychodrama to aeonic change. Yet the base elements of it seldom change.
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#24845 - 05/21/09 01:30 AM Re: Where to ramble? [Re: Saligia]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"cycle of evolution rather than linear"

Yes. You move forward, taking jumps and leaps of belief in various directions rather than a straight line of one grade to another. Ie, tree of life has different connecting pathways, you can go all over the place, and still end up at the top.

"I just find the core values have never changed. Some people realise this, most do not."

Yes. People are stupid, due to various input from social, political, religious and family overtones. Individuals wqriting are influenced by what they experience. If they admit to the past, they have to accept it and learn form it. Many do not wish to learn or study and just have shit handed to them.

"Perhaps I am wrong – mayhap there is real progression, I am just blind to it."

There is growth, but maybe you just don't see it cause your not looking in the right places, or your not ready for it. Shit, I was done writing my little book, but was waiting for something. You, with this post inspired me to write another chapter and its now done. Sometimes with new information timing is everything.
I will email you offline about some groups to look into.

"I guess I am just losing some element of respect for those that make a very public effort to move things along, then turn out to be seriously lacking in wisdom."

Its okay, lots of armchair magicians out there. Hell, look at the occults section in barnes and noble. 98% of it is shit. The best stuff is still the older stuff. Your a bright cookie, write stuff. Write what you know, what you think, what you feel.

A lot of what Saligia wrote is valid.

"Essentially it is my belief that magic has never really changed at all, it's only the manner in which practitioners have employed it that changes"....."The key component to the ritual is desire and in my mind it doesn't matter how that desire is incorporated into the ritual."

Yes. This is the simple basic jist of the matter.
Real practioners do whatever they feel is necessary.
No matter what color the hen is, if you want to do it, just use it.

\:\)

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#24850 - 05/21/09 05:16 AM Re: Where to ramble? [Re: Mercury_Templar]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
Perhaps I am wrong – mayhap there is real progression, I am just blind to it. I guess I am just losing some element of respect for those that make a very public effort to move things along, then turn out to be seriously lacking in wisdom.

Or maybe you are just more familiar with the subject, saw the transformations from one agent to another without a change to the core whilst I as a younger person only got aware of it the past 10 years and only start noticing/hearing how it was before...

 Quote:
When pneumatic pumps were invented, people used this model for describing how the mind, ergo Magick, worked; when people started coining psychological terms, they were then used to explain Magick; hell, now that IT is the norm we find people using this model to explore Magick. I just find the core values have never changed. Some people realise this, most do not.

Well as I have stated before, some things were invented but it took a few years before being adapted and pratical used by the masses...
In the late 70ies, the first networks by cable were being "invented". It lasted till the 80-90ies before the internet was worldspread. Maybe somewhere at this very moment experiments are being done by holograms and that within a few years practical use for the masses is possible, together with new applications for "magick" exploration.
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#24865 - 05/21/09 05:25 PM Re: Where to ramble? [Re: Mercury_Templar]
Scarlett156 Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/20/09
Posts: 59
Loc: rural Eastern Colorado (USA)
 Quote:
Where is modern Magick going?


Magic, like music, is something that is re-discovered every generation or so. Those who discover and begin to use it tend to believe that they are the ones who truly invented it, and they will typically go around slagging on those who "discovered" it before them. (I'm not saying that is the basis of your question here, OP--I am just making an answer.)

I use the following analogy quite a bit, but it seems to work, so what the hell:

Since the electric guitar first became popular, MILLIONS of people have obtained electric guitars and learned to play them. Many of these individuals heaped scorn on all musicians and musical instruments that went before, though in essence they were using an instrument that has been around for an EXTREMELY long time, just with a few technological innovations added.

Of all those who have done so, only a very small percentage has gone on to learn to play the electric guitar with proficiency, and of that small percentage, only a tiny fraction have gone even further to become distinguished at the art and science of guitar-playing.

The rest just make an unpleasant noise to bother the rest of us who are trying to sleep, eat, or watch a movie in peace, isn't that so?

So with regard to guitar-playing, you can say whatever you like about how dumb, lame, or inept the guitar players of the early 18th century were compared to someone like Hendrix, but that will not make you like Hendrix, better than Hendrix, or better than anybody. Talk is, of course, quite cheap.

The same can be said of magic.

There is something of value in almost any system/type/brand of magic, and for my part I've always been an avid researcher of all the different systems and schools--not because I'm looking for "truth" ("truth"!!!! HAH!!!!!! *snort*) but because I like to experiment with different things to find if they contain worth or value to me personally. If they do contain worth or value for me, then I use them; if not, I discard them.

And there has been so much written and taught about the subject of magic, I cheerfully acknowledge that it's going to take me a LONG damned time to learn everything I want to know.

Some stuff works for me, regardless of its modernity, and some doesn't. The Enochian stuff is something that for me has always worked quickly and well, but it may not for others.

I dunno if that really answers your question or not. To me, stuff is "modern" if it works and has validity in the modern setting, in dealing with modern issues--whether the stuff I use is of recent authorship or not, or whether its author is "for real", or whatever, doesn't really matter.

~~~ yours in Chaos, Scarlett
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"I can fling poo gooder than u"

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#24891 - 05/22/09 06:46 AM Re: Where to ramble? [Re: Scarlett156]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Sometimes it is good to see where the younger generation is going with the little they have experienced. So I understand you needed to use metaphores since you are unfamiliar with concepts.

In regards to guitar players or classical lute players, none of the current musicians would be able to do shit unless the earlier classical musicians created, played, and wrote their music down. You grow from learning something about the history of the instrument you play. You take that knowledge and improve upon it. Some get famous, some do not. The love of the music and the instrument should be the force that drives you to create and be the underlying passion of your life.

There is truth in every system, if you are able to see it.

I like how you admit that there is a lot for you to learn. This is very admirable to admit, most are afraid to admit that they still have a lot to learn.

Where Modern Magick is going, was more inline with the current state of affairs, not in regards to what works in modern times.

If what you do works for you, okay, but that was not the nature of this discussion.

Enjoy your time here,

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#24901 - 05/22/09 12:23 PM Re: Where to ramble? [Re: Morgan]
Scarlett156 Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/20/09
Posts: 59
Loc: rural Eastern Colorado (USA)
I beg to differ: It had everything to do with the discussion! (Assuming that the discussion is about "modern magic".)

We can't assume that magicians of more recent vintage are going necessarily to follow in someone else's footsteps (or to WANT to follow in someone else's footsteps), but where magic is concerned--as is the case where music is concerned--when one supposes that one is creating something truly new and different, one usually ends up finding out that is not the case. We can either be disheartened by that knowledge (which is what happens to most people) or we can laugh at the discovery of our own ignorance, pick ourselves up, and take it from there.

The human ear can only hear within a certain range of frequencies; though that range may be much greater than formerly imagined, there is still a limit to it. Whatever is considered "music" must lie somewhere within that set of sounds that humans are able to hear, or it will have no effect.

The same can be said for magic. There is a range of energies that human beings are able to perceive and work with, which will have effects on things in the human scope of activity and thought--what lies outside of that set of limitations cannot be perceived and will have no perceptible effect. Certainly, we may be able with some thought and energy to expand the range of energies that we may be able to control and manipulate to our own ends, but there is always gonna be the "ring pass not", beyond which we are not able to go in our present forms. We end up working with what is already there and trying to improve on that, rather than wasting time trying to be innovative or clever, if we really want to DO anything.

I think you sort of misapprehended my metaphor about the guitar. In fact, very few people who obtain and try to learn anything about the guitar go further than figuring out than it's a lot harder to play than it seems--and again that's certainly the case with magic as well. Most people who start the guitar do feel that they will become prodigies, which is the rationale for dropping a few hundred dollars on something that's going to be used for a few weeks or months and then sit in the closet for many years.

I noted only what worked well for me as an example of how many magicians I see these days who expend a lot of energy in trying to come up with something new, when what will work well for them is lying right there waiting to be noticed. As is the case with guitars, the n00b magician will go out and buy lots of stuff and proudly show off his/her stuff to his friends, obtaining validation just by ownership of this lamen, that grimoire, this really cool staff/athame/chalice, etc. (If this was not the case we would not see the proliferation of occult-themed stores, services, and websites that we do today.)

The n00b magician works with his new stuff for awhile, gets no results, and (depending on his disposition) will either blame himself, his environment, his equipment, or the system/book that he was trying to work with--and then the stuff goes in the closet.

Anyway, I did read the OP thoroughly. It seems to make the same point that I did, i.e., that while one person or another may be out there claiming to have discovered something new and different, if we want to get something from what we are doing, we will stick with what works, meanwhile continuing to broaden our base of knowledge and keep an eye out for anything that may help us to become better at our art.

And I DID say that there is something of value in every system--it's just that I tend to avoid the use of the word "truth" when and wherever possible. xoxoxo
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