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#26640 - 07/02/09 03:50 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Atralux Lucis]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
Big Slick
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
 Quote:
You only have the verbal storytelling traditions that is available to the masses of society. When telling a story, things get changed, stretched out, exgaurated, and made up. Over time something simple can become extreme. When stories are years later written down, and then centuries later changed and codified, they are far from the original tales.


As a child, did you ever play the game in school where you whisper a sentence into someone's ear? Then that person has to whisper that same sentence to the person next to them. And so it goes on down the line. Eventually, when it reaches the end of the line, what started out as "I played 6 7 of spades and won a pot of $600 with a straight" becomes "I won a pot of $670 playing spades". Details are forgotten. Small facts are remembered. Details get jumbled. Personal biases are factored in. There is more evidence to support that Jesus is just a fairy tale and the bible is nothing more than several historians of their time trying to write their version of history and tales, than there is to support that Jesus was factual.

This wasn't directed at you Morgan, I was just using your quote to add to what I was saying.


Edited by fakepropht (07/02/09 03:53 AM)
Edit Reason: confusion
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#26646 - 07/02/09 06:37 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Morgan]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
To Morgan:
You make some good points. It boils down to the same thing as we cant prove god doesnt exist nor can we prove he does.
I never said I believed the stories. I pointed out earlier I believe that it went through a translation journey from Hebrew-greek-latin-english. Obviously it was stretched and someone very poor translator stuffed it all up along the way. The magic is all misunderstanding and then idiocy.

for example: adam lived 900 years. Well what counts as a year back then. They went more likely by moon cycles. You divide 9 hundred by the 12 moon cycles a year and you get somewhere in the 70's. Pretty old but not supernatural.

So yes story telling is stretched by both the original people and the translators. Anyway, maybe one of those disciples was pretty well off and could read and write. Possibility, if anyone knows about the disciples CoS I dont know much about them.

Im just saying that the story from the culture is out of character to just appear a record of someones life and be fictitious. The only other middle-eastern story I can think of is the Epic of Gilgamesh and that is a fantasy written about some Mesopotamian king i think but fantasy so based on a real person, so I just think that its likely there actually was some guy that fits the description of christ and made a little cult of people with his ideas.


Fake prophet:
As you said historians putting down their version. Well these are disciples and all followed christ. I would suppose they all have some merit to what they say in regards to the events if they were there. So far no one has actually made hard evidence that chirst doesnt exist and we have the controversial evidence ie the bible, to prove he does exist.

I think the affirmative side has the advantage. I still dont say its impossible he was not real, dont misunderstand me, but I think the bible does have some merit as evidence, though morphed and twisted.
And again I say, whether he was real or not the philosophy is there and was emphasized by some 5 different people so we cant simply say that is a coincedence they all think the same, there would have been an influence shared by all of them ie Christ


Edited by Atralux Lucis (07/02/09 06:42 AM)

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#26648 - 07/02/09 07:04 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"I think the affirmative side has the advantage. I still dont say its impossible he was not real, dont misunderstand me, but I think the bible does have some merit as evidence, though morphed and twisted.
And again I say, whether he was real or not the philosophy is there and was emphasized by some 5 different people so we cant simply say that is a coincedence they all think the same, there would have been an influence shared by all of them ie Christ"


Really, 5 people. Really, really really.
Come on, really?????
Is your knowledge of the history behind the bible that limited?

Really???????

Shit, I wish Bacchae was here to answer this now, because he is better at the details than me.

The current bible is a conglument of books written by different people, some ranging hundreds of years apart. These books currently were decided upon by people who were members of the Nicean council. This was a group of priest, and advisors, and I believe King James. They decided which books to put into the bible and which to take out. This was a way to further control the masses, because if the masses think its okay that their life is shit, but the next one will be good, they wont complain.

Other previous stories/ books of the bible that were taken out can be found in The Gnostic Gospels, the dead sea scrolls, and then the judas or mary madgaline gospels as well.


As to wheather god exists or not or proving it. I don't care, as a Satanist it doesn't matter to me. I refuse to live my life bound to an idea of an absentee landlord in the sky. If I die and I happen to meet such a thing, well then he has a beat down coming to him.

"Im just saying that the story from the culture is out of character to just appear a record of someones life and be fictitious."

They are called epic stories. Every culture has one, hell even Odin I think was hung on a tree and had an eye pulled out. Budda sat under a tree looking inward for enlightenment. Don't be limited to just what you know, once you go actively looking you will see just about every culture has a story about a god or a savior or person who tried to do the right thing and lead as an example. The Xitian's just killed more people and had better publicity.

Morgan
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Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#26650 - 07/02/09 07:13 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Morgan]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
5 was an example. I know there was probably more. Thyank you for teaching me something about the bible history, no i didnt know alot of that but that is why im on this forum, to learn stuff.
\

Even so though, these stories wouldve come from somewhere, and the philosophy that is shared by many of these people mustve also come from somewhere. And so the author of the new christian philosophy wouldve have been thought up by someone who would be Christ.

The epics arent exactly detailed records of a persons life but more of tales. I might be wrong but the new testament is more of testaments of different people about christ and his life. That makes it a little more official to be real than most stories.
I agree though that yes there are those heroic stories of a sort in most cultures but this seems a little bit more than just a few stories.

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#26663 - 07/02/09 10:41 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Atralux Lucis]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
The Bible is not evidence. It has no merit. It is full of scientific inaccurasies and other blatant bullshit falsities. You might as well contend that their was once a guy named Frodo who threw a magical ring into a volcano.

Many of the attributes given to Jesus are shared by other mythological beings of long ago. Born unto a virgin, divine powers, killed then ressurected - those aren't exclusive to Jesus.

It is called research for fucks sake. If you can't offer anything other than your own bullshit "beliefs" then shut the hell up. All your arguments are retarded and I am tired of being "nice" about it. You have shown yourself to be incapable of doing any research on your own. You just hop in with your nonsense and expect everyone to give you the credit of a person who has spent their entire life studying the subject. I've got news for you: it isn't going to happen.

"You think we're stupid now, you'll see - we're only borderline retarded compared to where we'll be. Our future generation has their work cut out for them, keep lowering the bar and dig a hole to put it in."
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#26676 - 07/02/09 02:06 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Using the Bible as "evidence" is pretty much the same as using Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory as a blueprint on how to build a chocolate factory and make candy. It may be entertaining and it may be believed by some, but no, Fernanda Waltmuller, you don't make whipped cream with whips.
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#26689 - 07/02/09 07:20 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
You people have a tendency to take things out of context and then morph my arguments to use against me for your own benefit.
I said second hand evidence not primary which means it has gone through hundreds of different filters to what it is now.

Scientific inaccuracies? that is possibly the most obvious thing in the world. I think you go to ancient greece or egypt and find alot of unexplained things are acts of a god. Thats just obvious that any book from this time wouldnt be up to your standard of science.

Also, the story of jesus, and nearly all of them, the magic can be and has been explained, because most of it was a translating error, or just people (typical of this time) making things out more fantastic than they were. I mentioned the point about Adam's age. There are many points one can do 'research' to find logical explanations to the bibles magic. Its not literal, and through ignorance people think that the bible was written fictitious because it has that stuff in it. Ill give another possibility that it wasnt fictitious just through mistranslation and people's exaggeration it was made magical.

Again i say, even with my, what you would say, uneducated arguments, no one has yet given strong evidence to disprove that the bible has no merit whatso ever or that jesus didnt exist.
You've supplied a bunch of possibilities based, yes, on rather good points but no actual evidence simply more theories put forward by more people.
So i think my arguments based on perhaps ignorance, have still a bit more merit than a bunch of, what seems to be, conspiracy theories that jesus didnt exist.
And besides, I state often that im just throwing questions out there for clarification. It may be not based on research but that is why I am here, to learn things from others, and all Im doing is guiding certain parts of conversation to produce the info I would like eg. when morgan told me a bit about the origins of the different bible books.

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#26720 - 07/03/09 01:27 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Damn, okay, I'll bite.....

Using your own ideas about the bible and its "truth", I'm going to give you a different line of thought using your own arguements.

Vampires are real and affect everything.

There are many stories written about the creatures of the night. There are stories written on babaloyian clay tablets about them. There are spells written to keep them away as well. These predate the written bible by many many years. Every culture has stories about them ranging from Russia, Africa, Asia, and North America. Many years later a man existed Vlad Tempes in Translyvannia. He was kinda a King and killed people who went against his country by impaling them on stakes so they would die slowly. To some he is a monster, but to the people he protected he is a saintly figure deserving of worship and praise.

Many different stories and people have claimed to be visited by visions and physical manifistations of Vampires. There are several gospel texts on the subject written by Ann Rice, Chelsea Quinn Yarbro, Katherine Ramsland, and of course the man whos name I will not speak. There are many movies attesting to their feats of magic and seduction.

There are currently vampire groups active in North America, South America, Africa, Asia, Spain, England, France, and Japan. Many other gospels can be found on the internet for public viewing, while the more secret texts are only available to the initates through a special place called barnes and nobles.

Their numbers are legion and growing daily. Many are joining nesting groups after being awakened from their mortal lives to the truth of their existance and need for the sustainance of life that only comes through the proper acceptance of the vampire gospels and their own inner need.

For them the blood and energy of the world is the light they find in the darkness of this world.


So there you have it, according to your own arguement, you should go join the Tov or look for your nearest gothic vampire party to learn how to accept and fully understand the part of history that you are missing.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#26724 - 07/03/09 02:10 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Morgan]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
Probably just me but I dont quite understand what your point there but maybe there was and is such a thing as a vampire (not my belief) or maybe those stories were like many ancient stories, based on something and then dramatized and exaggerated.

I think I get one idea your making there, that maybe one person wrote about a Christ character and then others followed on from it. Well again thats a possibility but we are still back to the same point which is whether christ is fictitious.

Im sorry i didnt quite get your point and so my post might not following on exactly to what your saying.

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#26730 - 07/03/09 03:02 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
I really can't believe you are that dense.

I was comparing vampirism to Xitianity.

I am beginning to think you are just a troll.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#26732 - 07/03/09 03:20 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Morgan]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
I dont see that the discussion is about Christianity really, at the moment it is more of the merit of the bible having at least some truth.
You post was interesting but I cant quite see the relevance.

Anyway, the existence of Jesus is debateable as we have debated, and the bible, real or not, still has stuff in it thats as interesting as the odyssey or other ancient stories. I read daughers having sex with their father just yesterday after one page so its a little more in-your-face than most tales (even at todays standards)
I think I'll just agree that we disagree. Good discussion though, Morgan, you provide interesting insights into things.

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