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#25179 - 05/31/09 07:05 PM Jesus- This isn't what you think it is.
NDawg Offline
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Registered: 04/05/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Da South
I've got my own copy of the satanic rituals and I'm beginning to read TSB, but there seems just a small issue that I feel I must call attention to. I grew up in a very, very, very christian background. Mostly southern baptist. I've tried for years to rid myself of the strictures of this, in my view, outdated religion, and this has proven very difficult. One reason I was so glad to find this online community.

Mr. LaVey seems to be a very, very intelligent person. I wish I could have met him and actually talked with him about this, but I can't, so I'll do the next best thing.

One thing that gets me about most of what I've read is the misplacement of a lot of anger. It seems to be mostly focused on Jesus himself. I'm not defending Jesus' so-called "divinity" or his claim that he was 'God's' son. That, as far as I'm concerned, is heresay. I wasn't there, I don't know. But, what we do know about Jesus is that his basic message, barring all the dogma and stigma that has been built up around him, is "wouldn't the world be a lot better of a place if people were nice to each other for a change?"

Like I said, not defending him. You want to attack his possibly eroneous claims that he was the son of god, fine. I don't really believe it myself. You want to attack God itself, fine. As far as I'm concerned he's got a whole hell of a lot of explaining to do, starting with the platypus. (seriously, was he just like, burning a doobie and the phone rang?) But Jesus himself, the man, not the son of god, actually seemed like a really nice person. As I stated before, his basic message was we're all here, let's try to be kind to each other for once.

If you seriously want someone to direct anger at, direct it at the people who have taken his image and put it up on a podium. The people who have turned his words into "holy writ", not the guy who said it. The image of Jesus (and Satan, and God, for that matter) has become so distorted over the intervening years between here and when he was alive that no one really knows what went down. Direct your anger at the televangelist who says that you must trust in god to take care of everything.

Basically what I'm saying is, if you attack Jesus (the figurehead of christianity) in the same way that christians have attacked Satan (and indeed anything that seems remotely out of their ken, then aren't you just as bad as they are. If I'm being an ass here, please let me know. (ye gods I hope I don't get banned for this.)
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#25180 - 05/31/09 07:41 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: NDawg]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Next, read "Might is Right."

The objection to Jesus is just the overall objection to Xtianity in general. Jesus is the front man for the movement so he will take the bulk of the slings and arrows.

In general, both books are rebuttals of the Xtian core beliefs of turning the other cheek and charity to the unworthy.

All the same, Jesus and Xtianity should be largely irrelevant to the Satanist. One should only give them a thought in as much as one's own life may be affected by the faithful.
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I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#25209 - 06/01/09 12:49 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Fist]
Demosthysias Offline
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Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 12
hmm.. I wouldn't say that he should be blamed/bashed for all the Christians ignorance, but he is a big part in their beliefs. he took all the glory for preaching the Lords Gospel, so now he deserves to take the criticism,hate and anger as well.
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#25210 - 06/01/09 01:03 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Demosthysias]
ceruleansteel Offline
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Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
 Quote:
hmm.. I wouldn't say that he should be blamed/bashed for all the Christians ignorance, but he is a big part in their beliefs. he took all the glory for preaching the Lords Gospel, so now he deserves to take the criticism,hate and anger as well


Rethink that because you just contradicted yourself.

According to the mythos, Jesus was God's first creation and became sort of a son/apprentice. On more than one ocassion he tells people, "No one gets to my dad except through me." Jesus was responsible for the evolution of Christianity. Prior to his walks and talks, Christianity was a very very different creature (matter of fact, in old testamentland, eating meat was punishable by death).

So yes, "Jesus" should be blamed for what "he" created. If I have a dog I am responsible for how it behaves. If Jesus is the father of the congregation - much like a father is the god of his household - then he is responsible for the actions of all whom he allows to carry his standard.

And going back to my post in the Atheistic Satanism thread, the core of Christianity is based in willful-ignorance, as has been pointed out in the very first book, Genisis. Please read the aforementioned thread because a lot of what you are touching on is covered there.

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#25212 - 06/01/09 01:33 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: ceruleansteel]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
Not to you in general Cs...

Followed the responses a bit, one shouldn't forget that Christ might be a "fictive" person, considering the fact his life has certain resemblance with other prophets from that "era". He was only picked out for being the only person to actually be succesfull and stay in grace by his "followers". (Others were succesfull also, but lost their credibility after certain events or by mistakes made..).

Christianity started as a Judean SECT. There were thousands of people doing the same work as Christ. Even few had the same title like him (savior/messias). An example of one of these is the person "Simon Bar Kochba" -->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_bar_Kokhba

In short, it is more probably founded by a few people who got the luminous idea of starting a monotheistic sect (probably by the use of some drugs..). But as said before, Christ is considered a frontman and thus has the honour of receiving all the blows..

Altough I prefer to kick the pope's, cardinals and other religous people's asses. Kicking out the real hypocrits in the religion. But then again, who cares?
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#25214 - 06/01/09 01:42 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: NDawg]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
You write as if Jesus actually existed. The fact remains that there is really no historical evidence that Jesus actually lived. Claims of him being the son of God are irrelevant.

That being the case it is not really Jesus as a person that is being attacked but the type of person Jesus was supposed to represent through the teachings we are to believe he passed on to other people. Namely the one you mentioned about how we should all just be good to one another.

To expect that of people is pretty ludicrous. "Is it natural for man to do good onto one another; and what is good?" Christianity views people as faulty (what sort of omnipotent creator creates faulty beings and then blames them for its faults in design?) and expects them to be something they are not, with the threat of eternal damnation if they don't cue up and get in line with the rest.
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#25215 - 06/01/09 01:55 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Tranceparent Sky Offline
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Registered: 05/02/09
Posts: 31
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
You write as if Jesus actually existed. The fact remains that there is really no historical evidence that Jesus actually lived.


Might I add that there is no historical evidenence of a "Nazareth" existing either, and the many contradictions of the bible that certain people overlook.
If you want to rid your mind of "God", then cut it out to the core and realize that it's simply horseshit. I understand where you're coming from though, having a xtian background.
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~Satanism~
The cream cheese to my atheistic bagel.

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#25217 - 06/01/09 02:23 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Tranceparent Sky]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Originally Posted By: Tranceparent Sky
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
You write as if Jesus actually existed. The fact remains that there is really no historical evidence that Jesus actually lived.


Might I add that there is no historical evidenence of a "Nazareth" existing either, and the many contradictions of the bible that certain people overlook.
If you want to rid your mind of "God", then cut it out to the core and realize that it's simply horseshit. I understand where you're coming from though, having a xtian background.

Nazareth lies in Belgium.. Province of Oost-Vlaanderen.
And I'm not fucking kidding....

(well, maybe a bit.. ) http://maps.google.be/maps?q=Nazareth&oe...=image&resnum=1
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#25219 - 06/01/09 03:18 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Dimitri]
Tranceparent Sky Offline
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Registered: 05/02/09
Posts: 31
I hope you're joking.

I meant that Nazareth in biblical times was not constructed when he was alive.
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The cream cheese to my atheistic bagel.

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#25221 - 06/01/09 06:37 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Tranceparent Sky]
NDawg Offline
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Registered: 04/05/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Da South
Wow. I didn't think the convo would go that well. I was sure as shit I'd get banned. Since I'm not, here's an example of what I was saying: There's this rock band. The actual band itself sucks. No one can play their instruments worth a wet slap. The singer for this band is a really good singer. He does his thing, he's an amazing frontman, but the people behind him are just shit. Does the singer deserve to catch all the flak just cause the ppl he's with have no talent?

There may be many contradictions and omissions in the bible, but that doesn't mean the whole thing has to be thrown out. There is wisdom there if you're willing to hunt for it. Just like I may not agree with everything in the Satanic Bible, I'll still read it cuz there are definitely things I can learn. Also, the more you know, the better you can poke holes.

I didn't mean to propose the idea that jesus actually existed, but alot of people claim he did, they have "proof" and so on. If you're searching hard enough, you can find what you're looking for, but just because you're dissatisfied and angry doesn't mean you should throw out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak.(type...whatever)It may be ludicrous to assume that all people can be nice to each other all the time. I sure as hell can't. But, there's no reason to go around maliciously attacking ppl either. It all depends on the situation you're in. People are faulty, otherwise we'd have gone ahead and gotten a utopia going. That's never gonna happen. All the feelings we have are natural and need expression. Just saying that the feeling MIGHT be focused on the wrong point.

Props time-Old Testamentland! Fucking Classic! Made me laugh my balls off!
Dimitri, Nice Douglas Adams shoutout. Do I detect a Hitchiker fan?
Oh, and there absolutely was a Nazareth, and they rocked. JK:)
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I live to be proved wrong. Help expunge my ignorance.

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#25223 - 06/01/09 06:50 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: NDawg]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
Big Slick
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
 Quote:
There's this rock band. The actual band itself sucks. No one can play their instruments worth a wet slap. The singer for this band is a really good singer. He does his thing, he's an amazing frontman, but the people behind him are just shit. Does the singer deserve to catch all the flak just cause the ppl he's with have no talent?


Yes he does. He is considered the leader of the band. The head honcho. The Cavs are Lebron's team, the Lakers are Kobe's team, and the Bulls were Jordan's team. Their success and failures start with the guy getting the attention. Lebron is now seen as the fraud he is, Kobe is still exhaulted as the king, and speak no ill of Jordan. Look what Axl Rose did to GNR. Ran a great band into the ground and everyone splintered away to just as great acclaim.

Who is taking the heat for the mess we as a country are in now? Bush. Even though he had a cabinet, advisers, a Supreme court, congress, etc. He played a very minor role in what went down in the last 8 years. He was just the spokesperson, or puppet head.

The leader leads. He also takes all the credit for the successes and all the criticism for the failures.
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#25224 - 06/01/09 07:04 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: fakepropht]
NDawg Offline
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Registered: 04/05/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Da South
The Bush thing got me. I have to agree. I don't know much about sports, but I do listen to GNR. Rose did fuck that band up tremendously. But that's kinda the reverse of what I was talking about. That's a shit singer and an amazing band. Black Flag might be a good example. Alot of ppl say Henry Rollins ruined that band. In reality, Henry wrote like, five BF songs, and those were with other members. He had almost nothing to do with the music, but he still caught all the shit. If ppl want to criticize BF, call up Gregg Ginn, don't send the singer hatemail.

The whole Bush thing is just because he's been the most blatant. To quote my hero, DNA- The president's job is not to weild power but to draw attention away from it. He and Obama will be stellar presidents according to this criteria. In just about everything else, though, they're complete and total bullshit artists. Our country was going downhill waaaaaaaay before Bush hit the chair. All he did was bring all the bad out into the light of day.

I bow to your argument experience sir. You have beaten me.

Wow, that one got really off-topic, but I'm having trouble remembering what the topic was anyway. The metaphor still stands, right? (Please prove me wrong)
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#25236 - 06/02/09 11:28 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: NDawg]
Saligia Offline
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Registered: 05/03/09
Posts: 37
Loc: Manchester, England
I'd argue that people aren't actually targeting Jesus himself, rather it's the image of Jesus that they criticise. Let's face it, what are the chances of a man living in Israel with an Egyptian heritage being a blue eyed, white man? Nobody knows what the actual Jesus was like (or even if he existed) and so the actual person becomes insignificant, all that remains is the symbol of that person. The modern Jesus is not merely a figurehead for christianity, he's a symbol for willful ignorance and age old deceit.
I can't speak for everybody here but for me, while Satan symbolizes enlightenment, free will and power, Jesus represents ignorance, abstinence and weakness.

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#25238 - 06/02/09 02:28 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Saligia]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3895
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

I can't speak for everybody here but for me, while Satan symbolizes enlightenment, free will and power, Jesus represents ignorance, abstinence and weakness.

in a way, this is the backbone of Satanism itself. 'Jesus' is really just the face of what is represented by the backwards religion that is christianity.

It is darkly amusing that we live in a society that champions the exact opposite of natural human virtues;even to the point that these virtues are represented by the face of evil itself. The only sane thing is to embrace that very caricature of 'evil'.

And here we are.
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#25239 - 06/02/09 03:28 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Dan_Dread]
NDawg Offline
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Registered: 04/05/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Da South
I notice that you used the word 'sane'. It seems to me that no one really knows what 'sane', and 'insane' are. It's like Bad Religion said, Insanity is a full time job, in a world that is always changing. Insanity is a state of mind that you believe in sanity. Do you believe in sanity?

Besides, good and evil are just arbitrary words that all depend on your position and your state of mind. The example I was going to give is way to fucked up for even me to type. So I'll just leave that'un be. Just glad that I'm getting a wonderfully uncluttered view of Satanism.
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I live to be proved wrong. Help expunge my ignorance.

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#25240 - 06/02/09 03:35 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Saligia]
NDawg Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/05/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Da South
I got to agree with you man. There is absolutely no chance that jesus was a white dude. That whole thing was just probably come up with to make christianity more appealing to it's target demographic. What average, fat, white suburbanite is going to go to church every week and say prayers to a black guy? Or an arabic man? No way in hell. It has to appeal to the ppl you're selling to. Just like hot topic appeals to rich kids who want to be 'punk', but have no conception of what that word actually means.
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#25241 - 06/02/09 03:43 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: NDawg]
Scarlett156 Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/20/09
Posts: 59
Loc: rural Eastern Colorado (USA)
How I laughed to read the words "Jesus was a nice guy". In fact, he was a bit of an asshole. Look how angry people were at him! Even given a choice between Jesus--whose only crime that we know of was talking shit about authority--and Barabbas, a thief and murderer, the crowd was nearly unanimous in proclaiming Jesus to be the bigger offender, who deserved execution.

It's Jesus's "bad boy" appeal that has made the religion that sprouted up around his teachings so vibrant, long-lived, and brutal--in my opinion.

I'm not dissing you, OP, by the way--I consider this a good question, and in fact I pretty much agree with you that a reasonable and logical set of teachings has got a very bad rap because of the way it was interpreted by people who came after Jesus. (I consider St. Paul the biggest offender, but that's neither here nor there. I WILL stay on topic.)

As well, I do not care to become involved in an argument about whether Jesus is "a real person" or not--let us accept as factual that whether he existed as a human being or not, there certainly has been a lot of publicity about him over these last 2000 years or so. Perhaps it doesn't matter if he was ever a "real" person, ya know? So many people believe that he was, he might as well be. There's no arguing him away.

I also do agree with you that there is a misplacement of anger over the issue of today's Christianity versus Jesus. When looked at in multiple contexts, however, one begins to see that anger is pretty much misplaced most of the time, not just when it comes to religious differences. To break it down to its essential components: You cannot yell at your landlord, you cannot yell at your boss, you cannot get revenge against the cop who gave you a ticket--so you get angry at something else, right? Depending on your particular nature, you may, for example, go home and beat your mate or offspring--you may go home and kick the dog after a hard day. You may scream obscenities at a telemarketer who dares to call you while you are eating dinner--but you will not, of course, tell the landlord off. You will not, of course, take an extra-large dump on your boss's desk. (Etc.)

Placing blame is a favorite pastime of human beings. The Romans placed the blame for their failing empire on the Christians, with well-publicized results; the Christians placed blame for the inconsistencies and failures of their belief on pagans or heretics such as the Cathars; Islam blames Christianity (and by association the Western world) for everything bad that has ever happened since (their version of) the dawn of human history, and therefore we all, all of us Western people, whether we are Christian, Atheist, Satanist, Jew, or even Muslim--deserve to die a horrible death.

Where does the blaming end?

I don't know about you, but as far as I'm concerned, the buck stops here. They can't kill Jesus anymore, but they can kill... ME. Therefore I recognize the enemy not as Jesus--who I never had that much of a quarrel with--but as the person who blames me.

My dear NDawg (do I know you from somewhere? it seems I recognize your writing style): Jesus does not need any defense. People who want to attack him are, in essence, beating a dead horse. (Or, to use my analogy above: They are going home and beating their wife instead of punching their supervisor at work in the nose.)

Dr. LaVey is a very enlightened man who helped end a sort of dark age in Western thought. I am sure he will be remembered for a very long time to come.

My debt to him is specific and personal. Though he is now dead, I want to make sure that I give him sufficient props, in whatever means are available to me, so that his teaching doesn't grow flabby and diseased (like Jesus's teachings have).

If you have concerns, based on your upbringing as a Christian, that becoming involved in Satanism may involve a sort of disastrous hypocrisy on your part, try to keep in mind the story of the gospel of Matthew, chapter 4--Jesus went into the desert DELIBERATELY to meet "the devil", and their discourse, while not overly friendly, was civil. The famous writer James Joyce said that Satan is really only just "stories of Jesus's wild youth".

One thing I have noticed with people who have had these strict upbringings, and yet desire more than their allotted spiritual portion, is that they are unwilling to read and learn. For example, if you were to read the Gnostic texts of the Nag Hammadhi library, you would form a different, and probably more favorable, impression of Jesus than the one you have now. And what is the harm in doing that? Read other works about Jesus that are not just trashing Christianity, and try to form a more balanced idea of the person (whether he is "real" or not) and his teachings.

Also try to keep in mind that when Jesus was preaching "love" to the masses--in that time, love was a very (VERY) radical idea. Romantic love was almost unheard-of, certainly not considered respectable or useful. Love for one's fellow man was regarded as the ultimate in stupidity--for your neighbor is a rather ill, untrustworthy, and repulsive fellow, isn't he? Love him? Yeah: right!

No wonder so many people hated Jesus--his "love" undermined civil obedience and respect for authority; and, within a relatively short time (about 300 years), his religion supplanted the major faith of the time (not Judaism, silly butt--the pagan religion of the Romans).

Anyway, this is my usual teaching that I give when questions like this one come up. The bottom line is: Blaming Jesus for the excesses, errors, and shortcomings of the religion that grew up around his teachings is wasted time and energy. A self-interested and vital person does not keep beating a dead horse.

I hope this helps to answer your questions. If it has not helped that much, or if you have further questions--please let me know.

~~~ yours in Chaos, Scarlett


Edited by Scarlett156 (06/02/09 03:46 PM)
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#25244 - 06/02/09 04:44 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Scarlett156]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Jesus is the spearhead of weakness, what he stands for is the antithesis of Satanism. I spit even on the idea that he is granted a status more worthy than despise.

People should really read MIR.

I'll quote the first part of Iconoclastic.

 Quote:
As far as Sociology is concerned, we must either abandon our reason, or abandon Christ.

He is pre-eminently, the prophet of unreason — the preacher of rabble-rabies. All that is enervating and destructive of manhood, he glorifies, — all that is self-reliant and heroic, he denounces. Lazarus, the filthy and diseased vagrant, is his hero of heroes; and Dives, the sane, energetic citizen, is his ‘awful’ example of baseness and criminality. He praises “the humble” and he curses the proud. He blesses the failures, and damns the successful.

All that is noble, he perverts — all that is atrocious he upholds. He inverts all the natural instincts of mankind, and urges us to live artificial lives. He commands the demonetization of virtues that aggrandize a people, and advises his admirers to submit in quietness to every insult, contumely, indignity; to be slaves, de facto. Indeed, there is scarce one thought in the whole of his Dicta that is practically true.
O, Christ! O, Christ! Thou artful fiend! Thou Great Subverter! What an amazing Eblisglamour, thou hast cast over the world? Thou mean insignificant-minded Jew!

Why is it that our modern philosophers are so mortally afraid to boldly challenge the ‘inspired’ utopianism of this poor self-deluded Galilean mountaineer, — this preacher of all eunuch-virtues — of self-abasement, of passive suffering? .
The sickly humanitarian ethics, so eloquently rayed forth by Jesus Christ and his superstitious successors, in ancient Judea, and throughout the moribund Roman empire, are generally accepted in Anglo-Saxondom as the very elixir of immortal wisdom, the purest, wisest, grandest, most incontrovertible of all ‘divine revelations,’ or occult thaumaturgies. And yet when closely examined, they are found to be neither divine, occult, reasonable, nor even honest; but composed, almost exclusively of the stuff that nightmares are made of; together with a strong dash of oriental legerdemain.

Through a thousand different channels, current politico-economic belief is dominated by the base communistic cabala of the ‘man of many sorrows;’ yet as a practical theorem, it is hardly ever critically examined. Why is it that the suggested social solutions promulgated by Jesus, Peter, Paul, James, and other Asiatic cataleptics, are accepted so meekly by us, upon trust? If these men were anything, they were crude socialist reformers with misshapen souls, preachers of ‘a new heaven, and a new earth,’ that is to say, demagogues — politicians-of-the-slums; and out of the slums, nothing that is noble can ever be born.


D.

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#25269 - 06/03/09 06:02 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Diavolo]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
To Scarlett,

"It's Jesus's "bad boy" appeal that has made the religion that sprouted up around his teachings so vibrant, long-lived, and brutal--in my opinion."

You have to be kidding me. Any Christian, Catholic, or etc will argue that this is a ridiculous idea to hold. They don't see him as a bad boy, they see him as the son of god. They see him as an icon above all humankind and above reproach. I think quite a few of the Xitian memes are still flowing within your mind to even write such ideas so that you can feel good and justify your current belief system.

"One thing I have noticed with people who have had these strict upbringings, and yet desire more than their allotted spiritual portion, is that they are unwilling to read and learn."

What The Fuck does that mean? NO ONE IS LIMITED TO ANYTHING EXCEPT BY THEIR OWN FREE WILL. YOU MAKE NO SENSE. If a person DESIRES to learn more, how are they unwilling to learn?

"Blaming Jesus for the excesses, errors, and shortcomings of the religion that grew up around his teachings is wasted time and energy. A self-interested and vital person does not keep beating a dead horse."

Jesus is the figurehead for a religion that is the exact opposite of what Satanism is. Jesus and his religion is about being a martyer, weak, and forsaking this life for the next. It fell into favor because it is easier to control a mass group of people if they believe that suffering now is okay cause they will get into heaven and never suffer again.

If you think that most Satanists should stop beating this dead horse, perhaph you are not as Satanic as you claim. If you allow stupidity to go unchecked and uncommented on, you allow the stupidity to run rampant and pollute everything then you deserve to wallow in filth.

Satanist know, this is it. You get one shot to do it all the way you want to. No remorse, no regret. You are responsible for your choices and no god in the sky is going to save you.

Oh, and dont go into how with Chaos magic you can pick up and put down any belief system. That only truely works if you can see things for what they are: The utter uselessness of religious beliefs during the time outside of a ritual exercise.

Morgan
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Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#25280 - 06/03/09 08:10 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Scarlett156]
Saligia Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/03/09
Posts: 37
Loc: Manchester, England
"It's Jesus's "bad boy" appeal that has made the religion that sprouted up around his teachings so vibrant, long-lived, and brutal--in my opinion."

I think you're confusing "bad boy" and "extremist nutcase". As has already been mentioned, Christianity began as a cult for radical Jews who were widely regarded as delusional and heretical once upon a time.
Don't forget that Jesus' crucifiction was not martyrdom (he spent enough time hiding from the Romans to prove that he was unwilling to "die for our sins") nor was he crucified for being a "rebel". Jesus was crucified for heresy, plain and simple.
He had the same "bad boy appeal" as Osama Bin Laden.

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#25281 - 06/03/09 08:46 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Scarlett156]
NDawg Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/05/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Da South
Well, that's kind of the point. Jesus today is seen as the son of god who never did a bad thing in his life. Jesus in actuallity was a rebel. He challenged the established social order and that got the ppl in charge very, very pissed. They had control of the masses, therefore they could spread whatever rumors about him they wanted. Take Mumia Abu-Jamal for example. When he went to jail, everyone was like, "yeah, that nigger killed a cop, he deserves what he gets." Now that we have such things as DNA evidence and forensics, it can be almost conclusively proved that he didn't. Yet,(if they haven't killed him yet) he's still sitting on death row, because he's an educated black man who challenged the fucked up things the system did, and still does. Though heresy played a big part.
BTW, you may know me, Urbis or myspace, maybe? You don't really seem like the h2g2 type. I've been wanting to get a copy of the Gnostic gospels for some time now, but I don't know of any place that sells it. The used book story never has a copy, and I'm pretty sure that Buds & Nubile won't have it.

"One thing I have noticed with people who have had these strict upbringings, and yet desire more than their allotted spiritual portion, is that they are unwilling to read and learn."

I think what you meant by this was that these people want to break out of their restrictions, but they either can't be bothered to actually go out and research or don't through sheer bloody-mindedness. They just get angry and fly off the handle when someone mentions it.

Thnx everyone, this'uns goin well in my opinion.
_________________________
I live to be proved wrong. Help expunge my ignorance.

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#25282 - 06/03/09 11:20 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: NDawg]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
What makes you think he was a rebel? He was, if he existed, just one of the many soapbox prophets that wandered around during that period. There was absolutely nothing rebellious about him.

He was as rebellious as Jim Jones, Joseph Di Mambro or Marshall Applewhite.

D.

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#25292 - 06/03/09 05:45 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Diavolo]
NDawg Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/05/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Da South
Once again, I meet someone who can teach me something. Who are Joseph Di Mambro and Marshall Applewhite?
_________________________
I live to be proved wrong. Help expunge my ignorance.

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#25293 - 06/03/09 06:19 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: NDawg]
Draculesti Offline
Impaler
member


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 325
Loc: Rockville, Maryland
Ever heard of Google? Wikipedia? Of course, you could always go the old fashioned route and consult the public library; of course you live in the south (I sympathize, truly; I lived there for quite some time, and I don't recommend it to anyone), so that may not be the best option, unless you live in a large urban center where the libraries are less likely to have inches of dust collecting on the books from lack of use.

In general, we are not big on holding hands around here. How about you expunge your own ignorance for a change? There are people who get paid for proffering information; they are found in high schools and in colleges/universities.

As for the thread proper:

I believe culpability should be placed both upon Jesus and his followers, especially those who authored the gospels. Jesus planted the seed of the faith, and others cultivated it. His teachings are ideals that are impossible to aspire to, as they go against the very nature of our being. Many of faith would counter by saying that adhering to the tenets of faith are what separate us from "lowlier" creatures and our animal nature. Unfortunately, many have gone mad trying to live in this perpetual state of denial and striving for the level of perfection that seems to be demanded in the commandments. Others, like the clergy in Medieval and Renaissance era Europe exploited this while keeping mistresses and hoarding vast amounts of wealth. Jesus' followers, in their religious fervor (read: madness) insist on forcing their beliefs on others, ostensibly to save their eternal souls but, in reality for others to share in their madness. The pressure must be unbearable in trying to live according to the commandments; most crack under the pressure (I've lived amongst them for most of my life, so I know what I'm talking about; most of them are certifiable) or others go on living just how they please, scriptures be damned, while putting on the "religious coat" in public (you know, your standard hypocrite). The latter has the easier time, as they live naturally, with the exception of shrouding their baser activities in a cloud of obfuscation to avoid scandal.

I am a man; I see an attractive woman, and I immediately wonder what she would look like disrobed and what she would be like as a sexual partner. The Christian faith would have me believe that this in itself is a sin, that if I eye a woman with lust I have already committed adultery/fornication in my heart. (If only it were that easy ;\) ) This is a natural biological impulse, so, should I feel guilty? I think not.

I think the OP and others of similar argument are missing, in part, what LaVey is trying to convey. By attacking Christ, he is attacking the very foundation of Christian faith. In doing so, he is attempting to liberate those who, while perhaps living in a religious (read: Christian) environment, have nevertheless begun to question the articles of faith, particularly if they have lived in a manner that is directly at odds with said faith.

If you feel that Jesus has been unfairly wronged (you know, besides the whole crucifixion thing), then maybe you are in the wrong place.


Edited by Draculesti (06/03/09 06:54 PM)
_________________________
The Holy Trinity: Me, Myself, and I.

Homo Homini Lupus

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#25296 - 06/03/09 07:17 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Draculesti]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Being "In The South" is no excuse. They might be picking cotton outside of my window (actually a couple of miles from here), but that's no excuse for me to have the wool pulled over my eyes.

Christianity as a target is about as easy as taking down a dairy cow with a high powered rifle and a scope. And taking Jesus down with it is simply par for the course because THAT myth, like every other myth of omnipresence, does nothing more but work toward the mental enslavement of man and the hobbling of cultural advancement by superstition.

I don't give a damn if we're talking bad leadership or mentally deficient followers. Fish stink from the head, and all fish (metaphoric for god-based religious entities) stink.

Quite simply put, LaVey spoke of the Christian religion's corruption of the human spirit because The Satanic Bible was written first for the colloquial "god," whose contagion had permeated the sphere of commonality of thought in America. He spoke often of the foibles of "RELIGIONISTS," to extrapolate thought to universality. It would make no sense to pen a work in America that would speak against the stranglehold of a deity found in Mongolian legend and lore, although the concept that the delusion of omnipotence spawned would indeed be applicable to similar concepts far beyond the area of one's current focus. Slavery in slavery. The name may change from country to country, but the concept remains the same.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#25302 - 06/03/09 09:45 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Draculesti]
NDawg Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/05/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Da South
Google would be a good one, but how well can you trust the info on wikipedia? I've been trying to expunge my own ignorance for the past few years. Like you said, living in the south, it's kinda hard to get any information that's not colored, either heavily or lightly, by christian thought. All the 'religion' sections in the bookstores in sc are filled with christian books. Like I said, that's part of the reason I joined this site and like it so much. There's alot of intelligent people here, and just by starting this thread, I've learned quite a bit. Simply by posting that there reply, your helping me learn more. It's just good to get a second opinion. All I meant by help was tell me what you think. And you're right. My OP did miss alot of points. I wasn't that familiar with Satanism before I joined this site. I had an idea, but had never had the chance to actually speak to a satanist. Even if it is just an e-convo, I find it's better to talk to people that actually believe what I'm trying to learn about. If I wanted to learn about islam, I'd go talk to someone who's islamic, not a christian or a jew. Same for judaism. I'd go talk to a jew. So thanks for taking the time. I'd also read the books, which i'm in the process of doing.(pisses me off so bad that I lost my Q'uran)

One of the things that drove me away from christianity, besides the horrible hypocrisy, was the fucked up things that have been done 'in god's name'. Besides, I'm starting to come over to the point of view that is mainly expressed on this thread. You people do make an awful lot of sense. I believe I'm starting to get a good view of Satanism, and it's very appealing. Just the logic amazes me.(I'm definitely gonna finish reading LaVey's books, and I can't wait to read Might is Right)
_________________________
I live to be proved wrong. Help expunge my ignorance.

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#25303 - 06/03/09 10:18 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: NDawg]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Dude, it's called "data comparison". You look up information on one site, and compare it with a dozen others. If any information is contradicted, it's up for question as to its validity. Simple as that. Use multiple search engines. Google and Wikipedia should not be the be-all and end-all of your fount of information.

Most members of a faith are just as ignorant of the true meanings behind their doctrines as the average layman. If you ask a Muslim why pork is haram, he'll give you some crap about Quranic verses, and how science has proven that eating pork is unhealthy, blah blah blah. Obtaining the answers to those kinds of questions takes some digging and actual research. Not easily found on Google.
_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

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#25304 - 06/03/09 10:51 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: NDawg]
Scarlett156 Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/20/09
Posts: 59
Loc: rural Eastern Colorado (USA)
 Quote:
One of the things that drove me away from christianity, besides the horrible hypocrisy, was the fucked up things that have been done 'in god's name'. Besides, I'm starting to come over to the point of view that is mainly expressed on this thread.


That's really just a starting point--it's a decent starting point, but in a year or so you will regard such expressions as naive.

I also derive a lot of amusement from the discussion of younger people who are just getting interested in Satanism--they will profess to "hate God" because of all the atrocities committed in God's name. Ok, fair enough--but then in an hypothetical situation in which they are allowed freedom to act in whatever way they please, they will... commit atrocities. (Personally, I think a lot of the hatred directed at the Judeo-Christian God, and his scion, Jesus, is jealousy. You can say these guys are weak, but talk is cheap: Billions--not just hundreds or thousands, but BILLIONS of people worship them.)

The Judeo-Christian God is a brutal fucker. Don't ever let anybody tell you it's not! That's one big reason this cluster of monotheistic faiths are of interest to me, because of the suffering and horrors they inflict on ignorant humanity.

(I'm by no means advocating Christianity, by the way. I don't like it. I dropped it long ago. I just like to play devil's advocate, right?)

I'm also a strong advocate of comparative research. I suggest getting books through your public library, however, if you can. There's some amazing shit out on the internet, and a lot of good books that one can read online, but you'll always walk away feeling a little unsatisfied--there will always be that one book that you can find references to, but never the text.

My remark that you felt seemed to indicate that I considered you lax in your desire to learn was just general in nature--a lot of people who are brought up in a particular faith only know the texts of that faith and have little to no idea how to find other texts that might shed some light on things that confuse them. I didn't mean to suggest that you suffer from a lack of motivation or intelligence--I'm sure you have plenty of both.

Discussion forums are a decent way to learn more about things you want to know--for awhile. Most discussion forums on the internet are really pretty much just for socializing, though. Always try to keep that in mind--you'll avoid a lot of disappointment that way. Wring whatever knowledge you can from a forum, but avoid the social drama if you can. (That's just my advice based on lots of experience--feel free to ignore it totally.) xoxox
_________________________
"I can fling poo gooder than u"

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#25308 - 06/04/09 12:17 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Scarlett156]
Draculesti Offline
Impaler
member


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 325
Loc: Rockville, Maryland
 Quote:
I also derive a lot of amusement from the discussion of younger people who are just getting interested in Satanism--they will profess to "hate God" because of all the atrocities committed in God's name. Ok, fair enough--but then in an hypothetical situation in which they are allowed freedom to act in whatever way they please, they will... commit atrocities.


It's not just "God" (in the Judeo-Christian tradition) but religion as a whole which has been at the root of many major conflicts throughout human history. I agree that this is a naive viewpoint, this hatred of God for the atrocities committed in his name; again, this goes back to my original point of placing culpability not only on Jesus, but his followers as well.

 Quote:
(Personally, I think a lot of the hatred directed at the Judeo-Christian God, and his scion, Jesus, is jealousy. You can say these guys are weak, but talk is cheap: Billions--not just hundreds or thousands, but BILLIONS of people worship them.


LOL. Jealousy? I think not. That is also a naive point of view. It has been spelled out that the disdain for "God and his scion Jesus" is actually as a result of the teachings of this so-called scion, which preach abstinence instead of indulgence and advocates the meek instead of the strong (among other things). BILLIONS is a gross over-exaggeration; there are more Hindus than Christians; hundreds of millions MAYBE, but billions? No. Satanism isn't about numbers; if anything, the fewer, the better. It's not an all-embracing sort of philosophy, unlike Christianity where all are welcome. Jealous of their numbers? No, they can keep them.

 Quote:

The Judeo-Christian God is a brutal fucker. Don't ever let anybody tell you it's not! That's one big reason this cluster of monotheistic faiths are of interest to me, because of the suffering and horrors they inflict on ignorant humanity.


Again, such a statement presupposes the actual existence of said deity. It might be more appropriate to say that the followers of said deity are brutal fuckers. There is plenty of historical evidence to corroborate that fact.

 Quote:
a lot of people who are brought up in a particular faith only know the texts of that faith and have little to no idea how to find other texts that might shed some light on things that confuse them.


Actually, many people brought up in a particular faith have NO clue about the texts related to that faith. Most get their knowledge of faith second-hand, mostly through devotional services (i.e. church), rather than learn for themselves through their own effort. That was often the problem in the South back when the territory was still known as the "New Frontier." They had traveling preachers, many of whom were illiterate, no less (also preaching to a largely illiterate congregation) who would come into each town every few months or so for services, and the church gathering, since it was so infrequent and brought together many people who lived miles apart from one another, was more of a social event than anything. This was, by and large, the extent of their education in faith.

Furthermore, most children are indoctrinated by their parents from an early age, and so they get their information from them, unable to read the scriptures themselves (the Bible, such as it is, is written in language that is above even a gifted child).

 Quote:
Most discussion forums on the internet are really pretty much just for socializing, though.


While that may be true for most, it is not for this one. That is the mistake that many newbies make when they come in here, treating the entire message board like some sort of yahoo group chat, spewing their inanities all over the place. This particular forum is for intelligent discussion/debate, some sub-forums being more serious in their content than others. There is a wealth of information here, mostly by the experienced members, who already have a wealth of knowledge and wisdom at their disposal.


Edited by Draculesti (06/04/09 12:34 AM)
Edit Reason: New stuff!!!
_________________________
The Holy Trinity: Me, Myself, and I.

Homo Homini Lupus

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#25309 - 06/04/09 12:57 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Draculesti]
NDawg Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/05/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Da South
After reading and discussing this point for the past few days, I kind of feel like we're beating a dead horse. I just have one question and one statement.

First, the statement: It seems to me that MOST(not all) of the people on this forum are just as set in their beliefs as any other religion. And just as arrogant about it. They stave off the idea of a god, A god, not necessarily the christian god, as if it's something that they dreadfully fear. The words "there is no god" are just as valid as the words "there is a god". So far, no one has been able to prove wether or not god exists, let alone jesus. Or even satan, for that matter. They haven't deemed to show themselves to us. The only information that we have about the existence of a god, or jesus, or satan, is secondhand at best. The truth is that we simply don't know. I personally believe that most gods came into existence about two or three milliseconds AFTER the universe was created, as opposed to the previous week, which they usually claim. Or, peoples belief actually gives rise to gods. If there is no god, none, anywhere, of any type, what happens after we "shed this mortal coil"? Reincarnation? Oblivion?

Long statement I know, ok, here's the question. I was just curious cuz this really confused me: With all the shit that's talked about jesus and christians(I'm not even arguing that they don't deserve it anymore, y'all have pretty much convinced me that they do. What with all the wars, the persecution, and the feeble-mindedness and prediliction for ignorance) what's with the link to a website on which you can pray to jesus to save your soul? Is that just tryin' to be fair? Cuz if not I think someone is really confused.(other than myself, and I'm pretty damn confused)
_________________________
I live to be proved wrong. Help expunge my ignorance.

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#25310 - 06/04/09 02:01 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: NDawg]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Most Satanists don't believe in god, because he doesn't exist.

It is not our responsibilty to convert you or make you understand Satanism. We for the most part, don't really give a fuck what you believe at all. It's not about the number of followers that Satanism has, its quality over quanity.

We for the most part think you get one shot and its done.
Your immortality is based upon the memories and acts you leave behind.

That ad is a fucking automatic google shit thing that needs to be gotten rid of.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#25311 - 06/04/09 02:23 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: NDawg]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
First, the statement: It seems to me that MOST(not all) of the people on this forum are just as set in their beliefs as any other religion. And just as arrogant about it.

Might be, but on the other hand: no one can proove me wrong or accuse me of hypocrisy within "my belief system"... So yeah, I have a reason to act arrogant.

 Quote:
The words "there is no god" are just as valid as the words "there is a god". So far, no one has been able to prove wether or not god exists, let alone jesus. Or even satan, for that matter. They haven't deemed to show themselves to us. The only information that we have about the existence of a god, or jesus, or satan, is secondhand at best.

I never said "there is no god", but will only steer and state my answers to that point with well-thought over arguments and logic. Is there a god or not? I simply don't care, and if so: he's doing not that good.

The concept of god is like one bacteria in your intestines, you only need it to get a part of your body in order. If it dissappears it will be replaced by another one. If it get's too powerfull and take over your body, you might get sick and die. But at overall: you simply don't care when it's doing it's job.

 Quote:
If there is no god, none, anywhere, of any type, what happens after we "shed this mortal coil"? Reincarnation? Oblivion?

Reincarnation and other related death thoughts are just a mere product from a humans mind, created by fear of death. Most people have problems when facing it, some don't like to think about it and others start a whole religion about it, in hopes of aspiring immortality, afterlife, etc..
No one knows for sure what happens if we die, it's the last step we take. Some say nothing happens and you'll rot away, some say you get reincarnated,...
But the most logic and reasonable answer is just: "I simply don't know". Most things told about it are based on thoughts of fear. Here in Satanism, we don't think about it. We simply exist in the "NOW". Death is just another "world", as long as you are here everything is fine. Don't think about what happens when you die, you're wasting precious time.


Edited by Dimitri (06/04/09 02:46 AM)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#25312 - 06/04/09 02:28 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Scarlett156]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Originally Posted By: Scarlett156
in an hypothetical situation in which they are allowed freedom to act in whatever way they please, they will... commit atrocities.


Bullshit. One doesn't need that hypothetical situation to have the freedom to act in whatever way they please. Just by being alive we have that freedom yet only a fraction actually commit any atrocities.

You could say that it is fear of punishment that keeps me from killing all the people that annoy me, and indeed prison is a deterrent, but even in a world without rules or laws there will still be consequences. And if someone really wants to do something they will do it, and the consequences be damned.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#25320 - 06/04/09 01:21 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Morgan]
NDawg Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/05/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Da South
Not 'make', but 'help'. And I'm not trying to convert. I'm here for the same reason that I bought books on wicca and a q'uran. I want to learn. Thank you, I think I'm beginning to understand. So, to go off topic and pick a name at random, Jim Morrison from The Doors is immortal because of the legacy that he left behind. He'll never pass out of our cultural thought. Isaac Newton is immortal because he will always be remembered as the lazy guy sitting under a tree who 'discovered' gravity. The actual "afterlife" doesn't matter because we don't know what it's about anyway, and there's no sense in worrying about something you have no control over, right? Thanks for explaining the ad.

To Dimitri-
Yes, I can't really detect hypocrisy in Satanism. In that, the fact that you don't get tripped up in dogma, many props. That's rare. But,(to play a possibly dangerous game)hypothetically, isn't it plausible that enough people believing in one being, lending their energy over the years, talking to it like it was actually there, might bring it into existence?
_________________________
I live to be proved wrong. Help expunge my ignorance.

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#25321 - 06/04/09 01:54 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: NDawg]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
Isaac Newton is immortal because he will always be remembered as the lazy guy sitting under a tree who 'discovered' gravity.

I wouldn't really call him lazy.. his laws have a larger impact then one might assume. He wasn't the one who "discovered" gravity. He was the one who found a law that connected the earth with the heaven. Which was in his time in contradiction with the common belief.
Also made a huge contribution to mathematiques: thanks to him we have calculus which makes describing physic phenomens easier.

 Quote:
But,(to play a possibly dangerous game)hypothetically, isn't it plausible that enough people believing in one being, lending their energy over the years, talking to it like it was actually there, might bring it into existence?

Not in a literally way bring it to life.
But the idea might get a life of it's own if enough people believe in it and get their share out of it. And if things start spinning out of hand, you can be assured some WILL get hurt.

"It's all fun and joy untill someone breaks a leg, then it's fucking hysterical".

"The bigger the lie, the more the people will believe it" - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf
And too bad, it's true. Most religions nowadays are the evidence which state this.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#25322 - 06/04/09 02:09 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: NDawg]
Saligia Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/03/09
Posts: 37
Loc: Manchester, England
"isn't it plausible that enough people believing in one being, lending their energy over the years, talking to it like it was actually there, might bring it into existence?"

I doubt it but it's an interesting idea. If only it could be used to create winning lottery tickets.

Honestly I don't think it matters whether a person believes in a god or an afterlife at all. In my mind Satanism is a religion/philosophy of life not death. I'm open to the possibility that we are reborn after death and it offers me some comfort to think that maybe this isn't the only life we get. However, this is nothing more than a possibility and therefore I intend to make the most out of my life.
Maybe there is a God and perhaps there is some form of divine plan for humanity, but unless this is somehow made blatantly obvious to me I prefer to think of humans as animals rather than divine entities trapped in flesh.
Oh yes and many satanists are very arrogant (myself included) as you quite rightly pointed out. This probably stems from being surrounded by imbeciles all day, everyday. I won't bore you all with a rant about this, but I think you know where I'm coming from.

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#25323 - 06/04/09 02:10 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: NDawg]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: NDawg
But,(to play a possibly dangerous game)hypothetically, isn't it plausible that enough people believing in one being, lending their energy over the years, talking to it like it was actually there, might bring it into existence?


This is the same obtuse and childish thinking that makes people think that the crap they see in movies is "real." It spawns the vampire wannabes ala Anne Rice's Interview With a Vampire, the dolts who think that the Matrix was real, etc. Just wanting things to be real, no matter how much you kowtow to a belief or wish it so MAKES it real? Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the thoughts that strippers might actually be there in clubs just waiting for you; they're all nice fantasies, and you can pray to them and talk about them all you want. You might even delude yourself into thinking that you've made them real. But at the end of the night, you're STILL going home alone, minus a whole lot of dollar bills.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#25336 - 06/04/09 06:50 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Jake999]
NDawg Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/05/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Da South
To Dimitri- I know he made a wonderfully great contribution to the fields of science and logic, I was making a cheap joke for example. To the other thing you said, read on.
To Saligia- I think I do get where you're coming from. I live with my grandma and every day I'm constantly bombarded with network news, televangelists, and christian thought. It's literally all over the walls. One of the few things that keeps me sane(if I can even be called that) is coming here and posing theories, discussing them with people of different modes of thought, and eventually, having them shot down in view of new information.

To Jake999- You make an interesting, and mostly true, point. But you bring up money. Money proves that hundreds of thousands, if not billions of people believing gives rise to being. What is money? Money is a piece of paper or metal that has no inherent value whatsoever, other than what people give it. Regardless of the fact that money is just paper, it controls almost every factor of our lives. It really does have a life of it's own. Why is gold valuable? It's just a frickin shiny rock. Why is it worth more than, say, quartz, for example? The economy is just as much of an illusion as god is. We all believe it, so it becomes true.
_________________________
I live to be proved wrong. Help expunge my ignorance.

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#25337 - 06/04/09 07:05 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: NDawg]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
You draw to many stupid conclusions to try to validate a point of contention that is untenable. Money is not a belief. Money is a tool.

The reason that gold is valuable... and you SHOULD have learned this in school, is because it is a metal that can be widely used to make a variety of shiny objects that do not tarnish and in coinage, as it was soft enough to carry and maintain a stamped image... not much else. If derives its value only from its scarcity in relationship to other metals found in the world, and therefore it is hoarded because of its value in scarcity and utility, again, at first to make unique and shiny objects.

In later years, it was found to have applications in electrical transfer, in dentistry and medicine, in glassmaking, etc.

Paper is use because it is less heavy than gold and easier to carry, in Western cultures. The paper itself is a legal document... it is not a symbol. It too is a tool.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#25356 - 06/04/09 10:47 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Jake999]
NDawg Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/05/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Da South
Ahh...shiny things. Thank capcom for Resident Evil. Anyway, don't go bringing up the school thing. I grew up and went to school in south carolina. We're what, third from the bottom....maybe? I may have graduated, but really, that diploma don't mean shit. As proved by my diction. Besides, there were only two teachers in the whole of the school I went to that were worth a damn, and I only got one of them for one semester in four years. Money is a tool, that I agree with, but that metal, the coinage it is made into, and the paper that represents it are just metal, round pieces of metal, and paper. They have no value other than what people give it. And, of course, practical applications.

I have the pamphlet for my grandmother's memorial service. I put great value on that piece of paper. That might make me a sad sentamentalist, but the point is that that piece of paper is more valuable to me than the money in my wallet. Especially since there isn't any money in my wallet. Maybe I shouldn't have said money is a belief, but the system and the economy are.

And how fucked up is it that such-and-such can't eat today cuz he doesn't have as many pieces of green paper as the next guy? (Fuck staying on topic! Let's see where this leads!)
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#25358 - 06/04/09 11:08 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: NDawg]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Obviously you learned little and have no problem making yourself look like a fool. And DON'T PM ME. I don't suffer fools lightly.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#25359 - 06/04/09 11:17 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: NDawg]
Draculesti Offline
Impaler
member


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 325
Loc: Rockville, Maryland
 Quote:
Anyway, don't go bringing up the school thing. I grew up and went to school in south carolina. We're what, third from the bottom....maybe? I may have graduated, but really, that diploma don't mean shit. As proved by my diction. Besides, there were only two teachers in the whole of the school I went to that were worth a damn, and I only got one of them for one semester in four years.


Hmm...as an excuse that only goes so far. "Responsibility to the responsible." If you couldn't take your education into your own hands when others were incapable of doing so, that is your problem. Fuck, I would say that what I learned in school and what I learned on my own is split right down the middle, 50/50. It is a well-known fact that they do not teach you everything in school. It is your responsibility, or at least your parents', to fill in the gaps.

By all means, if those green pieces of paper are so useless, feel free to send it all my way; I am sure I can find a use for it where you cannot ;\)

 Quote:
And how fucked up is it that such-and-such can't eat today cuz he doesn't have as many pieces of green paper as the next guy? (Fuck staying on topic! Let's see where this leads!)


As Guns 'n' Roses said, and I quote: "Welcome to the jungle." That is the way things are. One can either let it defeat them, or do something about it. Those who can will rise above; those who cannot will stay on the street or at McDonald's. Contrary to what our founding fathers may have thought, all men were NOT created equal.


Edited by Draculesti (06/04/09 11:18 PM)
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The Holy Trinity: Me, Myself, and I.

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#25364 - 06/05/09 02:36 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: NDawg]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
To Dimitri- I know he made a wonderfully great contribution to the fields of science and logic, I was making a cheap joke for example. To the other thing you said, read on.

What should I read on?
 Quote:
Anyway, don't go bringing up the school thing. I grew up and went to school in south carolina. We're what, third from the bottom....maybe?

You have an internet connection, which means you can have a ride on the world largest information service.
Whether or not your education was crap, there is a load of info at your fingertips. How about looking things up in which you are interested or think you lack? There are alot of ways to improve skills.

Take Draculesti as an example to see what a few years of guitar dedication might bring..

 Quote:
Maybe I shouldn't have said money is a belief, but the system and the economy are.

Like Jake said, money is a tool.An economy and "system" might be synthetically created, but they are neccesary to maintain human society. Without it, you'll have a bloody hard time. Everything around you is made and achieved by money.

The system and economy are just other tools (mechanisms in fact) to keep the machine "human society" at work.


Edited by Dimitri (06/05/09 02:37 AM)
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#25428 - 06/05/09 11:02 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Dimitri]
NDawg Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/05/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Da South
Alright, this is getting a little pointless. I started this thread to find the answer to what I thought was a totally valid question based on my lack of knowledge and lack of contact with true satanists who actually understood the religion.(belief system? Anyway...) I think I got my answer about halfway through page two, so I probably won't be visiting this forum any more. Thanks to the people who actually helped me learn something. To the others, feel free to flame me all you like now.
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#25460 - 06/06/09 03:00 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: NDawg]
ceruleansteel Offline
active member


Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
 Quote:
I grew up and went to school in south carolina. We're what, third from the bottom....maybe? I may have graduated, but really, that diploma don't mean shit.


Not to pull this thread off-topic, but that's no excuse. SC is like ten states higher than Arkansas and I have a genius IQ and am competent to debate on many topics. If a person is ignorant, they have no one to blame but themselves.

I have read a lot of your posts and I think that the problem is not necessarily WHAT you think, but HOW you think. You seem to want to take the easy way out a lot and blame any other person or entity you can in order that you are not accountable for your own situation or ideals. That and that alone will get you into trouble here.

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#25601 - 06/13/09 04:26 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Savage]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
Firstly I respect Christ, but as my enemy. I would not cut of his head and wear it as my wall décor.
My father whilst not a christian, though very spiritual, thinks jesus message was a very good one. I think its unnatural and just impossible. The good Christ did outwieghs the bad he instigated eg. Catholic Church, holy war, dark ages.

If you go to evilbible.com they have some passages from the bible that Jesus words (in red \:D if you read a good bible) and they are particularly mean and a little aggressive. So maybe Jesus wasnt the nice guy.

Anyways, Christ is not son of god but was simply a man with a new philosophy.
Virgin birth: The hebrew word for virgin in ancient times simply means woman who isnt married. In the running from the roman census Joseph and mary didnt get married and when they arrived at Bethlehem mary gave birth. No magic. The romans cant translate for shit and the englich were too stupid to look past the seemingly amazing words. Now we are meant to believe this stupidity that is a virgin birth.

Walk on Water: The hebrew literally translates to 'a walk on water'. they mean a wharf. Theres no magic, jesus was simply walking on a wharf or pier. The romans translated it and when the english got it they say wow thats really cool and started making it more prominent in the bible. There is no magic in mistranslation

I personally think that Jesus is a massive fake and agree with the position Muslims have of him as a prophet in their religion. Jesus was just a guy with an idea that was contrary to human nature and was just a 'utopian unreality'. His followers were retards that never bother to think 'what would jesus do' and CoS they are stupid they think simply kill the problem which results in counter-productivity, death, wars etc etc.

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#25608 - 06/13/09 12:11 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3895
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
It has been mentioned, but is worth re-mentioning - There is no verifiable evidence that the jesus of the bible ever actually existed at all.

All these crazy theories about who the REAL jesus was are really just so much hot air.
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#25620 - 06/13/09 10:42 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Octavius Offline
member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 557
Loc: Left the party
Just to play devil's advocate, Dan, I'd love to see you back that up.
_________________________
So long, and thanks for all the fish.

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#25623 - 06/13/09 11:43 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Octavius]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3895
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Well, being that my claim is the lack of verifiable evidence in favor of the proposition that jesus christ in fact lived, you are in fact asking me to prove a negative.

I can't really bring a 'lack of evidence' to the table.

All it would take would be one piece of solid evidence for the pro side to refute this claim. As I have yet to encounter such evidence, there is little else I can say on the matter.


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#25626 - 06/14/09 02:37 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I agree here, the evidence needs to be provided about Jesus being a real person first, then one can eventually provide evidence for him not being one. If one starts to assume there is some truth to this literary Jesus, one is already nibbling the cheese of the hidden mousetrap.

Personally I am convinced he did not exist. Of course there is always a probability he existed as described in the bible but it is of about the same order as Harry Potter being a real person as defined in his lore.

It is interesting to note that the Dead Sea scrolls contain one mentioning Melchizedek as a divine being, called Elohim whole will proclaim the Day of Atonemen, atone for the people who are predestined to him and judge the people. He also was born out of a Virgin according the book of Enoch. He also makes his appearance in the NT. This specific scroll dates around the 1st century BCE.

It is very likely Jesus was the Harry Potter of his day.

D.

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#25637 - 06/14/09 11:29 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Diavolo]
FromGehenna Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/24/09
Posts: 53
When you mention about Jesus being a real person, in what kind of form do you mean? if i could point to a legitimate source that talks of a man known as Yeshua Ben Shlomo (Jesus son of Solomon) who was seen as a rabble-rouser and lunatic and scourged by the Romans, would that count? Or perhaps the person that Roman scribe Josephus talked about who existed EARLIER than the man above that i mentioned? Yes, there are some sources that believe the Jesus of the New Testament is infact a compilation of political figures from around the same time, give or take a couple of decades...
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#25639 - 06/14/09 12:18 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: FromGehenna]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
If you base yourself upon Josephus, know who did the manual copying of his books. Never trust a religious devotee when he got his hands upon history. Josephus account is likely forged although one can't provide definite evidence on it, only reasons for a high probability.

Yeshua is a pretty common name and him being a rabble-rouser and lunatic and thus scourged is about the same as in a couple of centuries we finding evidence of a Harry living in England with a foster family. I assume more Yeshuas got scourged, after all the area was occupied by Romans, and what we also don't know is if this factual evidence (I'd like to see a valid source for it) is what the Jesus story is based upon or whether it is historical evidence for the real Jesus.

Jesus to me is mythological and unless I am provided undisputed evidence, I stand my ground.

D.

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#25773 - 06/19/09 10:21 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Diavolo]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
I think the assumption he didnt exist is ludicrous. They have a complete record of his life, let alone all the other records of other peoples lives in the bible.
I dont disclude the possibility there were alot of jesus' around at the time and they may have been different but I dont think that at times such as these they could conjure up a story this in depth. All stories at this time were legends or real stories eg. Gilgamesh (existent but turned into legend story) Odyseus (we concluded there was a battle at troy so another legend)

Jesus, I definitely believe to have been real because to say he wasnt would be like saying Socrates never existed either for all we have of him is plato's records of him. He was really just a smart man who did a few magic tricks and used them to give strength to his philosophy of peace etc etc and his story was turned into a fantasy legend but legends are always based on some fact, and all stories back here were mostly based on true events.

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#25779 - 06/19/09 12:25 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
I think the assumption he didn't exist is ludicrous. They have a complete record of his life, let alone all the other records of other peoples lives in the bible.
I don't disclose the possibility there were alot of jesus' around at the time and they may have been different but I don't think that at times such as these they could conjure up a story this in depth. All stories at this time were legends or real stories eg. Gilgamesh (existent but turned into legend story) Odyseus (we concluded there was a battle at troy so another legend)

His in dept-life and details CAN be made up. If you open up any kind of book telling the life of someone fictive you bloody will have any detail of that person.

Even so, there have been council to let the story "fit". Even so his "written life in detail" contradicts itself from time to time. If you know the bible you'd clearly see contradictions in certain actions described by the different apostles. Is it because it's from their point of view? Might be, yet if it was so: why does the gospel of Judas gives another take on the C's life? (I need to mention that this gospel hasn't been modified by time since the "recent" discovery of it, thought to be "destroyed" by time after councils have been chosen which gospel would fit best to make a book and establish a society whom would please the new religion.

My own written response might be vague so I'll include some words which should clear a few things up.

Council of Nicea (about Christ receiving his godly powers voted by cardinals... Yes they voted if he should receive godlike powers or be human-like.., and many other things related to godhood and powers. )

Council of Antiochië (Here they formed the bible by choosing between thousands of gospels, to finally take out the ones we now know, the NT probably has been formed during this council. Council was held in 324 in honour of the opening of the "golden church" of Constantin the great.Also the apolistic cannons were written here (these handle about excommunication, relations with Jews and the formal rules and laws of bishops.) )

Between the year 49 and now about 51 council have taken place with the most recent in 1962/1965, each one is worthwhile to know and see the hypocrisy and changes made by the church to pass on the lie. The 2 I told about are the best examples.
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#25784 - 06/19/09 01:41 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Dimitri]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3895
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

I think the assumption he didnt exist is ludicrous. They have a complete record of his life, let alone all the other records of other peoples lives in the bible.

If you accept the new testament as a credible historical document you just haven't done your homework.
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#25788 - 06/19/09 02:25 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Dan_Dread]
icu4whatur Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/14/08
Posts: 21
There is a great deal of convincing evidence that Jesus never existed. The most notable researcher in the field is a lady named Acharya S., and her most well known book is called "The Christ Conspiracy", which you can read a good bit of Here

And here is her Website

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#25795 - 06/19/09 03:36 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: icu4whatur]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
And what if Jesus DID exist? Would it somehow mean that everything he said and did was somehow imbued with a "holy spiirt?" I can assure you that Marshal Appelwhite existed. He said a lot of things that made the followers of his Heaven's Gate community fanatically follow him. They killed themselves for him to go to the flying saucer trailing secretly behind the Hale-Bopp comet.

I can also assure you that Jim Jones existed. He said a lot of things that made the followers of his People's Temple community fanatically follow him. They killed themselves for him in the jungles of Guyana.

I can also assure you that Liz Claire Prophet existed. She said a lot of things that made the followers of her Summit Lighthouse group fanatically follow her. They sold everything they had to finance her paranoid prophecies and move to Montana to live underground to avoid the nuclear holocaust she assured them was coming in March or April of 1990.

I can also assure you that I could go on and on with people who DID exist, all quite certain of their own lock on godliness, all with fanatic followers, and all equally delusional, in the long run. Reality does not equate to wisdom, nor does it have any connection to one's claims of spirituality. Physical existence owes only to the fertilization of an egg by a sperm, the carrying of the fetus to birth, and the drawing of a breath by that infant.

So, what IF Jesus existed? It makes no difference in the fact that we, as Satanists, reject the dogma that accompanies his dubious deification and spurious accounts of "miracles." Ancient texts are filled with equally fantastic accounts of others with whom the gods shared "special favors." Jesus is but one whose legend was enhanced and promoted with more zeal and better PR.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#25799 - 06/19/09 07:09 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Jake999]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3895
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
You make a very important point, Jake. Jesus' existence really makes no difference whatsoever insofar as MY Satanism is concerned.

I am opposed to everything the jesus character stands for, and if the god of the bible were to actually exist, based on what is written of it I would most certainly have to oppose it with every fiber of my being.

A god sitting out there in the cosmos, but not of it wouldn't matter because its followers would still be here meddling and fouling things with their dirty anti-human ideas.
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#25815 - 06/20/09 05:06 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Isolation Offline
New Age Nut - Banned
lurker


Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 4
Jesus cannot be blamed for what christianity is today...it would be totally ridiculous.
Jesus was the Son of God,actually the God it/her/himself because we are ALL God.Everything in "Our" universe is God.
Our universe is pure energy in a form of vibration,everything in our universe is one and whole,and has always been one.
The difference is only different frequency of vibration.
We are all expressions,thoughts and ideas of God.
Jesus was "teaching" Unconditional Love,respect all life without any condition,whether he is murderer or rapist.
Hating someone is equally hating yourself because everything is you and you are everything.
Each one of us without any exception creates our own reality.
Everything in our universe is always in perfect harmony and balance...which is the only way.It is known that energy influences energy,and everything is energy,including thoughts and imagination.
So when a car crashes into other car is 1 example of energy influencing energy,excactly the same goes for thinking and thoughts,they influence the energy around you,so energy of a car and energy of your thought is no different in reality.
Because the universe/god is always in perfect harmony and balance without any exception,we create our own reality with our thoughts,we create all the murderers that exist today by "thinking" about murdering,and since the universe/god never fails to give what we want so it manifests more murdering in our reality when our thoughts influence everything around us creating our reality.So when people think about murdering,there will always be murdering,when people think about stealing,there will be stealing.The best thing is simply to let go of the "past" if you want to have a different future.That's where "forgiving" comes in,you cannot make progress towards "peace" if you have war in your thoughts,because your reality is what you think.So for example when you get a bill,and you're watching the bill,you tell your subconscious mind that right now your reality is that you have a bill,right at that moment you send out vibrations to the universe and universe responds to your thoughts by starting to influence energy around you according to your energy ending up manifesting more and more bills that will be your reality.Same goes for anything in life including violence.So when people think that we have War all over the world and the more power we put in it the more universe starts to manifest war as our reality because it is what we think.And that also is excactly what "praying" means.As the universe is always in perfect balance "Karma" system comes in,by each action we make we send out unique vibration,positive of negative...so to keep the universe in balance,everything that we do,we get back.But...this is absolutely not a "punishment" system or to justify anyone,God does not Punish or Favor anyone...the universe doesn't even define Murdering as a "bad deed" and saving someone's life as a "good deed",in the universe there is only Energy in the form of different vibration.
So who was Jesus? Energy,God and the Universe like we all are.
But he was just on the "higher" level of "realisation" of the illusion of the 5 physical senses and the ego.There can be alot more "people" like him in the universe.
Our physical reality looks so real because since our birth on this world we state our subconscious mind what we see through our senses,and this is getting more and more powerful as "time" goes on.Also we get influenced by other's people thoughts.


Edited by Isolation (06/20/09 05:12 AM)

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#25816 - 06/20/09 05:44 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Isolation]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
What a pile of steaming unsubstantiated New Age bullshit.

Please, define "vibration", "frequency", and especially "energy". You might be shocked when you realize how in conflict with real science your (mis-)use of pseudoscientific jargon actually is.

 Originally Posted By: Isolation
Hating someone is equally hating yourself because everything is you and you are everything.

Actually, love and hatred are both inherent parts of the human condition. Being pure "unconditional love" is not only humanly impossible, it is a complete caricature of human nature.

And also, if everything is "god", then by definition that includes hatred as well as love, violence as well as compassion, greed and selfishness as well as generosity.

But no, your inconsistent hippy philosophy won't go to logical conclusions.


I'll let you get back to your tree-hugging, pyramid-power-buying, Louise Hay-loving, crystal worshipping, bangle-jangling, mushroom chomping and tofu-eating masturbating to the Celestine Prophecy ways.

I'll take a clear-headed view of reality and human nature thank you very much, not some regurgitated New Age dogma straight out of some tacky paperback written specifically to make a mint off the gullible.

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#25818 - 06/20/09 07:07 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Meq]
Isolation Offline
New Age Nut - Banned
lurker


Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 4
Energy-Motion in the form of Vibration...Vibrations differ from Vibrational Frequency.

Frequency-"Frequency is the number of occurrences of a repeating event per unit time. It is also referred to as temporal frequency. The period is the duration of one cycle in a repeating event, so the period is the reciprocal of the frequency."

Did you mean that "Good" and "Bad" are inherent parts of humans or that "Hatred" and "Love" are?

Love and Hatred are both inherent parts of humans...but only if we believe or aknowledge this to our consciousness and subconsciouseness.
The universe does not define Love or Hatred and therefore they are both energy(well it is energy either way actually).
Love and Hatred aren't both inherent parts of humans if we believe it not to be...the immutable universal law of polarity is "inherent part of humans"(atleast in our universe)...the energy itself is always neutral,but it is up to us to choose and personalize the 2 sides that is "positive(good)" or "negative(bad)".
It is hard to even imagine how can Hatred and Love not be different sides of polarity if our consciouseness and subcounsciouseness has been "trained" that way for all these years.But it definetly isn't "impossible".
We can constantly choose and believe what is "good" to us and what is "bad" to us if we put enough "power" into it.
So if people would define Hatred as good and Love as good then these 2 would not be different polarities with each other.

But I am kinda sure that u meant "Good" and "Bad",so ignore everything mentioned above.

And no...it is absolutely not "Impossible" to have only Unconditional Love on earth...it is possible,but not permanently.
It is completely Ignorant to think that there is no possibility that "Hatred" and "Love" does not "exist" in any other "cililizations" on other planets or galaxies...and therefore it is completely Ignorant to think that earth and humans are balanced only with theirselves and not with every other cililization throughout the universe.

Oh and my primary goal was to share my opinions on Jesus' "teachings" and that who Jesus and god God actually are.

So you absolutely and completely failed if you thought my intention was to influence anyone to think that "Unconditional Love" is the way everyone should go.


Thank you for your attention.


Edited by Isolation (06/20/09 08:00 AM)

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#25820 - 06/20/09 08:17 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Isolation]
Isolation Offline
New Age Nut - Banned
lurker


Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 4
And my opinion on Christianity and Satanism.
And yes...My Opinion so I hope that noone will lose their head starting to write every crap they can think of to bash me.Prove yourself that you have strong enough discpipline to control yourself not to get emotionally influenced by my Opinion.

Both aknowledge the existence of "Good" and "Evil"

Satanism sets pressure on "importance of Self" while Christianity sets pressure on "importance of Others".

While both basicly fail to understand that both of these are equally important,and neither of these "Religions" is willing to compromise.

I'm rather the balance itself than one of the polarities that makes the balance.

And of course,I'm not telling that it is necessary to find a compromise,everyone in the universe acts on their free will and has their own reality...so "universally" none of us is "right" or "wrong".

**Fix from my previous post: "It is completely Ignorant to think that there is no possibility that "Hatred" and "Love" Exists..."



Edited by Isolation (06/20/09 08:52 AM)

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#25822 - 06/20/09 09:03 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Isolation]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
First off: as a newb here it is suggested to keep your head low and not start spamming boards with psychedelic crap or other shit you come up with.
Posting your opinion means opening yourself to critics, and they will be given wether you like it or not.

 Quote:
Satanism sets pressure on "importance of Self" while Christianity sets pressure on "importance of Others".

While both basicly fail to understand that both of these are equally important,and neither of these "Religions" is willing to compromise.

I may conclude you think Satanism and Christianity is a war of "we agains them"? It isn't, within Satanism a person is considered to think for himself, deal with reality etc..
Not going to repeat the whole "what Satanism stands for /is" since you can read it in the media section and on various topics if you take your time.


Take my advice: keep your stupid mouth shut if you don't know what you are talking about. Start reading the diverse topics on the board, learn and see if you fit in. If not leave.. spare us some time to have a decent discussion without the brainless ramblings from ignorant bastards like you. Show respect to the administrator who is paying to keep this site up and to endure dumbasses who completely ruin topics whom are/were worthwhile to read.


Edited by Dimitri (06/20/09 09:03 AM)
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#25825 - 06/20/09 09:33 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Dimitri]
Isolation Offline
New Age Nut - Banned
lurker


Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 4
"within Satanism a person is considered to think for himself, deal with reality etc.."

Haha...but dude,you just comfirmed excactly what I said.
I said Satanism puts more pressure on "importance of Self"...and you comfirmed,and I can also read out from your sentence that you think that "importance of Self" is somehow more "reality" than "importance of Others" is,and again you excactly comfirmed that you are not willing to compromise in any way.
I think you people are so used with agreeing each other about "truth" and "Satanism" that you have become Lazy Minded,so when your ideological way of "truth" becomes under threat you will get emotionally extremely influenced and not even taking in consideration of what I said or was trying to say.
And yes,I do expect my "opinions" to get critisized but in more civilized manner :D.

And I have no idea that how can you say that I am brainless and don't know what I'm talking about...I think I know Excactly what I am talking about :D.I'm not the follower or prisoner of any Religion and morality,you are...
And the only one who is clearly and and purposely intening to offend anyone here is you,not me.

But no worries,I've lost any interest pacticipating in discussions at this forum since I think that you're not the only person like that in here :D...so byez!


Edited by Isolation (06/20/09 09:35 AM)

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#25829 - 06/20/09 10:08 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Isolation]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
You're attempting to boil down the complex religion of Christianity into a "Think about others" statement and the complex philosophy of Satanism into a "Think about yourself" statement and then arguing against the dichotomy. It's a perfect example of a Straw Man Fallacy.

If you expect to be taken seriously on this forum, contribute something intelligent, not crap like this.
_________________________
If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#25836 - 06/20/09 12:14 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: TornadoCreator]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3895
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Why does this thread all of a sudden smell like patchouli oil, unwashed clothing and stale marijuana?
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

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#25876 - 06/21/09 06:27 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
Whilst I dont agree with this Isolation person fully and dont like a few of his ideas, I would take his side against most of you due to the fact this isnt a personal ad hominim discussion. We are discussing ideas so stop being uncivilised and attack his ideas rather than him as an individual.
I do think that you can boil down the two philosophies to others and self because that is generally what it is, but self seems more reality of someone, as in the inescapable selfishness.

Anyways, I basically think you were all being a bit harsh on someone who is participating in a discussion and expecting intelligent argument back, which rather you simply provided an argument decorated with a bunch of unnecessary insults.
I assume this is a philosophical forum and not a personal one.

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#25877 - 06/21/09 06:30 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
Back on topic to jesus:

If you put my argument back into context:
The possibility that Jesus was fictitious and made up by people at the time, well there werent many stories based on nothing back then. Most were legends based on true events or facts. Or they were short stories to tell a moral lesson, so you cannot say that this complete record was written by peasantry that barely knew how to write let alone think up a complete record of a persons life.

I dont disclude the possibility that jesus was fictitious I simply think that there is more evidence for his existence than against. I dont think this level of mentality to create an entire person+complete record of life was existent at the time of jesus

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#25890 - 06/21/09 12:21 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Atralux Lucis]
FromGehenna Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/24/09
Posts: 53
The documentary The God Who Wasn't There suggests exactly what you are saying, that the majority of the New Testament is a myth, and work of fiction.
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#25894 - 06/21/09 01:06 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: FromGehenna]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3895
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Astralux, your ignorance seems to know no bounds.

For starters, nobody is entitled to be treated well or respected just because they happen to post here. If someone gets a rough time of it here it is generally because they are an idiot, and stupidity just doesn't fly here. (At least not for very long. When did you sign up again? ;\) )

Respect is earned or not given at all. Courtesy, though a default, lasts only so long as it is deserved. If you learn nothing of Satanism in your time here but for this you have still learned something critical to the philosophy. (not that I have much faith in this sinking in to that thick skull of yours)

And again onto the subject of 'jesus', and the claim that records exist of his life..I ask...where and what do you believe these records to be?
Do you have any clue whatsoever when the gospels were written? Here's a hint for you..well AFTER the letters of paul were. 80 years and upwards to 400 years after he would have supposedly lived.
The paulian epistles never outright speak of jesus as a mortal man, because that mythology came much later. The NT is structured to make one think the gospels came first, but they sure didn't.

Why is it do you think that there are no contemporary historical or archeological records of this jesus fellow? If he did even a fraction of the things attributed to him, surely at least one historian might have made so much as a footnote demarcating those events? Well there isn't. Not one iota of contemporary evidence.

All we have are the gospels, written generations after the fact, that are actually copy's of each other. Do you think 'luke' was written by a guy named luke? 'john' by a guy named john? no, these were attributed to these 'authors' (of which there is also no historical or archeological evidence) much later, and by christian scribes.

So then, my intellectually diminutive co-board inhabitant, it's time to put up or shut up. Where is this evidence of jesus you keep blathering on about?
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

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#25903 - 06/21/09 04:31 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Dan_Dread]
FromGehenna Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/24/09
Posts: 53
Daniel, to answer your question and give further information on my own previous posting, there exists a record in Pontious Pilates's annals that mention a man called Yeshua Ben Shlomo, a rabbl-rouser and dissident who was brought before Pontious and being scourged before being set free. No crucifixion, no son of joseph, no crown of thorns. Just a rebel the authorities thought was mad. The records were brought back to Rome shortly after Pilate was recalled for gross misconduct.
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#25904 - 06/21/09 04:40 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: FromGehenna]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3895
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Well yes, but that bares so little resemblance to the gospel stories as to really carry no weight as evidence of 'jesus', as portrayed in the new testament.

'jesus' never actually existed (insofar as history can display), but the mythos, and of course it's sources and roots, are quite real.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

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#26470 - 06/30/09 05:23 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Dan_Dread]
FromGehenna Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/24/09
Posts: 53
Dan, if we are going to accept the fact that the Yeshua (jesus) of The New testament is a defacto compilation of religious and cultural mythologies, does it not go to complete the picture that somewhere, at it's core, was a real person, however humanly eccentric? I do. And i think that this person contributed a great deal of the Xtian philosophy, but also had a bug up his ass the size of New York against the religious authorities. They knew that, thought the man mad, and treated him accordingly.
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#26521 - 07/01/09 07:24 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: FromGehenna]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
To Dan:

I was simply saying that in being ridiculously rude and offensive to people who may have ideas that arent ours or are simply idiotic one is becoming as bad as he christian. Opening part of the Satanic Bible talks about Satan as the gentleman against his accusers, i think following that example as many Satanists neglect, would give us all a better appearance than the typical aggressive people most of the public see, and the arrogance that is the CoS.

Add-in: I never said he was entitled to respect but we arent here to talk about who we all are. We throw out an idea and it is argued, simple as that. Dont start making it personal everytime someone has an Idea you dont like. You argue it away with your own views. And you emphasize my point by saying Im ignorant. I expect you to think more in the future about whether you want to debate ideas or simply go insult people and then add-on half-assed ideas onto them.

Asides, you seem very much emphasized on these gospels. You obviously forget that these gospels werent just thought up in the bloody middle ages by some englishmen. It was translated from ancient hebrew and whilst much of it may have been mistranslated and misunderstood it doesnt change the fact it was BASED on the original and so it is second hand evidence based on first hand evidence of jesus life.

As for the names John and Paul etc. Well where did the names come to be common today. I dont see what your point there is because John and Paul might be names of hebrew origin.

I wont disclude Jesus being fictitious but even if he is (not my belief) his philosophy remains and that is the more important point. You may even refer to the author of Jesus life as Jesus himself.

Also all these 'theories' of jesus being fake well there are theories the holocaust never happened, 9/11 is a conspiracy, there is a moon base on the moon, moon landing never happened, and other theories people think up because they cant accept something or want to make some money or whatever. In the end we cant prove or disprove jesus' existence but lean closer to the truth via evidence.

I think the society of the time wouldnt have the literary standards to sprout a complete fictitious record of someones life because of that and its not really in character of the society to write for fun and entertainment. (and we are talking original hebrew and not gospels)


Edited by Atralux Lucis (07/01/09 07:29 AM)

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#26639 - 07/02/09 03:28 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"Also all these 'theories' of jesus being fake well there are theories the holocaust never happened, 9/11 is a conspiracy, there is a moon base on the moon, moon landing never happened, and other theories people think up because they cant accept something or want to make some money or whatever. In the end we cant prove or disprove jesus' existence but lean closer to the truth via evidence."

Evidence being the key word here. As such, you just have a theory, and your theory Jesus was a real person, and the stuff written about him being true, just doesn't fly. If you believe him to be true, and the stories about him are true, then why are you here? Just to be clear, if you think the guy walked on water, and was the son of god, maybe you are in the wrong place?

"I think the society of the time wouldnt have the literary standards to sprout a complete fictitious record of someones life because of that and its not really in character of the society to write for fun and entertainment. (and we are talking original hebrew and not gospels)"

Lets see and ponder that period of time....
No television, cameras, telephones, electrical devices.
No computers, no standard mail delivery, no radios.
Most people can not read, write, or afford to go to any type of school, unless they are part of a "priest/religious" order that teaches it.

You only have the verbal storytelling traditions that is available to the masses of society. When telling a story, things get changed, stretched out, exgaurated, and made up. Over time something simple can become extreme. When stories are years later written down, and then centuries later changed and codified, they are far from the original tales.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#26640 - 07/02/09 03:50 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Atralux Lucis]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
Big Slick
active member


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
 Quote:
You only have the verbal storytelling traditions that is available to the masses of society. When telling a story, things get changed, stretched out, exgaurated, and made up. Over time something simple can become extreme. When stories are years later written down, and then centuries later changed and codified, they are far from the original tales.


As a child, did you ever play the game in school where you whisper a sentence into someone's ear? Then that person has to whisper that same sentence to the person next to them. And so it goes on down the line. Eventually, when it reaches the end of the line, what started out as "I played 6 7 of spades and won a pot of $600 with a straight" becomes "I won a pot of $670 playing spades". Details are forgotten. Small facts are remembered. Details get jumbled. Personal biases are factored in. There is more evidence to support that Jesus is just a fairy tale and the bible is nothing more than several historians of their time trying to write their version of history and tales, than there is to support that Jesus was factual.

This wasn't directed at you Morgan, I was just using your quote to add to what I was saying.


Edited by fakepropht (07/02/09 03:53 AM)
Edit Reason: confusion
_________________________
Beer, the reason I get up every afternoon.

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#26646 - 07/02/09 06:37 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Morgan]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
To Morgan:
You make some good points. It boils down to the same thing as we cant prove god doesnt exist nor can we prove he does.
I never said I believed the stories. I pointed out earlier I believe that it went through a translation journey from Hebrew-greek-latin-english. Obviously it was stretched and someone very poor translator stuffed it all up along the way. The magic is all misunderstanding and then idiocy.

for example: adam lived 900 years. Well what counts as a year back then. They went more likely by moon cycles. You divide 9 hundred by the 12 moon cycles a year and you get somewhere in the 70's. Pretty old but not supernatural.

So yes story telling is stretched by both the original people and the translators. Anyway, maybe one of those disciples was pretty well off and could read and write. Possibility, if anyone knows about the disciples CoS I dont know much about them.

Im just saying that the story from the culture is out of character to just appear a record of someones life and be fictitious. The only other middle-eastern story I can think of is the Epic of Gilgamesh and that is a fantasy written about some Mesopotamian king i think but fantasy so based on a real person, so I just think that its likely there actually was some guy that fits the description of christ and made a little cult of people with his ideas.


Fake prophet:
As you said historians putting down their version. Well these are disciples and all followed christ. I would suppose they all have some merit to what they say in regards to the events if they were there. So far no one has actually made hard evidence that chirst doesnt exist and we have the controversial evidence ie the bible, to prove he does exist.

I think the affirmative side has the advantage. I still dont say its impossible he was not real, dont misunderstand me, but I think the bible does have some merit as evidence, though morphed and twisted.
And again I say, whether he was real or not the philosophy is there and was emphasized by some 5 different people so we cant simply say that is a coincedence they all think the same, there would have been an influence shared by all of them ie Christ


Edited by Atralux Lucis (07/02/09 06:42 AM)

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#26648 - 07/02/09 07:04 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"I think the affirmative side has the advantage. I still dont say its impossible he was not real, dont misunderstand me, but I think the bible does have some merit as evidence, though morphed and twisted.
And again I say, whether he was real or not the philosophy is there and was emphasized by some 5 different people so we cant simply say that is a coincedence they all think the same, there would have been an influence shared by all of them ie Christ"


Really, 5 people. Really, really really.
Come on, really?????
Is your knowledge of the history behind the bible that limited?

Really???????

Shit, I wish Bacchae was here to answer this now, because he is better at the details than me.

The current bible is a conglument of books written by different people, some ranging hundreds of years apart. These books currently were decided upon by people who were members of the Nicean council. This was a group of priest, and advisors, and I believe King James. They decided which books to put into the bible and which to take out. This was a way to further control the masses, because if the masses think its okay that their life is shit, but the next one will be good, they wont complain.

Other previous stories/ books of the bible that were taken out can be found in The Gnostic Gospels, the dead sea scrolls, and then the judas or mary madgaline gospels as well.


As to wheather god exists or not or proving it. I don't care, as a Satanist it doesn't matter to me. I refuse to live my life bound to an idea of an absentee landlord in the sky. If I die and I happen to meet such a thing, well then he has a beat down coming to him.

"Im just saying that the story from the culture is out of character to just appear a record of someones life and be fictitious."

They are called epic stories. Every culture has one, hell even Odin I think was hung on a tree and had an eye pulled out. Budda sat under a tree looking inward for enlightenment. Don't be limited to just what you know, once you go actively looking you will see just about every culture has a story about a god or a savior or person who tried to do the right thing and lead as an example. The Xitian's just killed more people and had better publicity.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#26650 - 07/02/09 07:13 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Morgan]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
5 was an example. I know there was probably more. Thyank you for teaching me something about the bible history, no i didnt know alot of that but that is why im on this forum, to learn stuff.
\

Even so though, these stories wouldve come from somewhere, and the philosophy that is shared by many of these people mustve also come from somewhere. And so the author of the new christian philosophy wouldve have been thought up by someone who would be Christ.

The epics arent exactly detailed records of a persons life but more of tales. I might be wrong but the new testament is more of testaments of different people about christ and his life. That makes it a little more official to be real than most stories.
I agree though that yes there are those heroic stories of a sort in most cultures but this seems a little bit more than just a few stories.

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#26663 - 07/02/09 10:41 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Atralux Lucis]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
The Bible is not evidence. It has no merit. It is full of scientific inaccurasies and other blatant bullshit falsities. You might as well contend that their was once a guy named Frodo who threw a magical ring into a volcano.

Many of the attributes given to Jesus are shared by other mythological beings of long ago. Born unto a virgin, divine powers, killed then ressurected - those aren't exclusive to Jesus.

It is called research for fucks sake. If you can't offer anything other than your own bullshit "beliefs" then shut the hell up. All your arguments are retarded and I am tired of being "nice" about it. You have shown yourself to be incapable of doing any research on your own. You just hop in with your nonsense and expect everyone to give you the credit of a person who has spent their entire life studying the subject. I've got news for you: it isn't going to happen.

"You think we're stupid now, you'll see - we're only borderline retarded compared to where we'll be. Our future generation has their work cut out for them, keep lowering the bar and dig a hole to put it in."
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#26676 - 07/02/09 02:06 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Using the Bible as "evidence" is pretty much the same as using Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory as a blueprint on how to build a chocolate factory and make candy. It may be entertaining and it may be believed by some, but no, Fernanda Waltmuller, you don't make whipped cream with whips.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#26689 - 07/02/09 07:20 PM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
You people have a tendency to take things out of context and then morph my arguments to use against me for your own benefit.
I said second hand evidence not primary which means it has gone through hundreds of different filters to what it is now.

Scientific inaccuracies? that is possibly the most obvious thing in the world. I think you go to ancient greece or egypt and find alot of unexplained things are acts of a god. Thats just obvious that any book from this time wouldnt be up to your standard of science.

Also, the story of jesus, and nearly all of them, the magic can be and has been explained, because most of it was a translating error, or just people (typical of this time) making things out more fantastic than they were. I mentioned the point about Adam's age. There are many points one can do 'research' to find logical explanations to the bibles magic. Its not literal, and through ignorance people think that the bible was written fictitious because it has that stuff in it. Ill give another possibility that it wasnt fictitious just through mistranslation and people's exaggeration it was made magical.

Again i say, even with my, what you would say, uneducated arguments, no one has yet given strong evidence to disprove that the bible has no merit whatso ever or that jesus didnt exist.
You've supplied a bunch of possibilities based, yes, on rather good points but no actual evidence simply more theories put forward by more people.
So i think my arguments based on perhaps ignorance, have still a bit more merit than a bunch of, what seems to be, conspiracy theories that jesus didnt exist.
And besides, I state often that im just throwing questions out there for clarification. It may be not based on research but that is why I am here, to learn things from others, and all Im doing is guiding certain parts of conversation to produce the info I would like eg. when morgan told me a bit about the origins of the different bible books.

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#26720 - 07/03/09 01:27 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Damn, okay, I'll bite.....

Using your own ideas about the bible and its "truth", I'm going to give you a different line of thought using your own arguements.

Vampires are real and affect everything.

There are many stories written about the creatures of the night. There are stories written on babaloyian clay tablets about them. There are spells written to keep them away as well. These predate the written bible by many many years. Every culture has stories about them ranging from Russia, Africa, Asia, and North America. Many years later a man existed Vlad Tempes in Translyvannia. He was kinda a King and killed people who went against his country by impaling them on stakes so they would die slowly. To some he is a monster, but to the people he protected he is a saintly figure deserving of worship and praise.

Many different stories and people have claimed to be visited by visions and physical manifistations of Vampires. There are several gospel texts on the subject written by Ann Rice, Chelsea Quinn Yarbro, Katherine Ramsland, and of course the man whos name I will not speak. There are many movies attesting to their feats of magic and seduction.

There are currently vampire groups active in North America, South America, Africa, Asia, Spain, England, France, and Japan. Many other gospels can be found on the internet for public viewing, while the more secret texts are only available to the initates through a special place called barnes and nobles.

Their numbers are legion and growing daily. Many are joining nesting groups after being awakened from their mortal lives to the truth of their existance and need for the sustainance of life that only comes through the proper acceptance of the vampire gospels and their own inner need.

For them the blood and energy of the world is the light they find in the darkness of this world.


So there you have it, according to your own arguement, you should go join the Tov or look for your nearest gothic vampire party to learn how to accept and fully understand the part of history that you are missing.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#26724 - 07/03/09 02:10 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Morgan]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
Probably just me but I dont quite understand what your point there but maybe there was and is such a thing as a vampire (not my belief) or maybe those stories were like many ancient stories, based on something and then dramatized and exaggerated.

I think I get one idea your making there, that maybe one person wrote about a Christ character and then others followed on from it. Well again thats a possibility but we are still back to the same point which is whether christ is fictitious.

Im sorry i didnt quite get your point and so my post might not following on exactly to what your saying.

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#26730 - 07/03/09 03:02 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
I really can't believe you are that dense.

I was comparing vampirism to Xitianity.

I am beginning to think you are just a troll.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#26732 - 07/03/09 03:20 AM Re: Jesus- This isn't what you think it is. [Re: Morgan]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
I dont see that the discussion is about Christianity really, at the moment it is more of the merit of the bible having at least some truth.
You post was interesting but I cant quite see the relevance.

Anyway, the existence of Jesus is debateable as we have debated, and the bible, real or not, still has stuff in it thats as interesting as the odyssey or other ancient stories. I read daughers having sex with their father just yesterday after one page so its a little more in-your-face than most tales (even at todays standards)
I think I'll just agree that we disagree. Good discussion though, Morgan, you provide interesting insights into things.

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