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#25832 - 06/20/09 10:27 AM First Satanic Church vs. The Church Of Satan
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
OK. This is something I've taken an interest in for a while because I find it to be rather infuriating that Satanism has actually developed "factions"

I've looked as much as I can. I read the literature and the philosophies. Yet still I can see no real difference between the First Satanic Church and the Church of Satan. There must be a difference or Karla LaVey wouldn't have felt so strongly as to found a new organisation.

Now I realise this forum is much more affiliated with the First Satanic Church but I'm much more familiar myself with the Church of Satan myself and even then I'm not a member and have not read all the literature linked with it. I can't really see any differences between the organisations myself and would appreciate if someone could tell me what the area of dispute is that caused the separation.

Thanks for your time and expertise to anyone who answers.

- TornadoCreator
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#25834 - 06/20/09 11:56 AM Re: First Satanic Church vs. The Church Of Satan [Re: TornadoCreator]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3935
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Are you joking?

For starters, there are no 'factions within Satanism'. There are people that form groups/organizations around pretty much any theme you can name, that is just the nature of mans sociology.

Satanism itself is what it is, sort of how volleyball is still volleyball regardless of how many enthusiasts belong to volleyball clubs.

The real question is, why should it bother you that these organizations exist given the fact that neither of them effect your day to day life in any way whatsoever?

As for the difference between these two particular organizations, I myself find several obvious discrepancies.

One is an internet org and the other is not.
The FSC member base are largely in and around SF, and they hold regular real world functions. The CoS has no real center, and has members scattered all over the world.

One will accept anyone with enough money to send them,and one will not. From what I understand the FSC selects members based on quality rather than expendable income.

Which leads me to another point, leadership. The CoS is pretty much being run by the same people that run the TOV, which is the biggest money scam since scientology. As far as I know Karla LaVey runs her church based on the same principles and ideas set forth in her fathers book.

From where I sit these are very significant differences.
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#25839 - 06/20/09 04:20 PM Re: First Satanic Church vs. The Church Of Satan [Re: Dan_Dread]
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
Well, I knew those differences, I was just wondering if there where any differences in philosophy.

I feel you're being a little anti-CoS as I know they request an application along with the $200 where they ask why you wish to join amongst other things, it's not just a cash scam.

From what I can see, the way they conduct themselves as organisations are only minor differences, in the grander scheme of things, and it feels like the only reason multiple organisations like these exist is because of a dispute between Blanche Barton and Karla LaVey over Anton LaVeys will.

If this is the whole story then there's no issue. I just don't like seeing petty arguments between Satanist groups and there seems, at least online, to be some confrontation between the two organisations.
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#25841 - 06/20/09 04:35 PM Re: First Satanic Church vs. The Church Of Satan [Re: TornadoCreator]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3153
Together with the things Dan noticed, the FCS to me seems to seperate itself from the CoS by letting it's member think and discuss certain principles written in TSB.

I noticed the strong almost dogmatic approach towards the philosophy by forcing their members to have TSB as a complete indisscusable work.
This, while I have the slight feeling FSC has a more subtle approach and doesn't let TSB shine out as "complete, indisputable work". They give me the impression there is still room for discussion.

And maybe the most obvious thing: CoS promotes ass-kissing to keep the red card and maybe get a higher rank, while FSC isn't really busy forcing their members to kiss ass to get a better position.

CoS can be entered by any dumbshit (at least nowadays) with too much money, FSC only approves membership if you can show them you are worth it. More elite approach, less likely to have anyone stupid entering, more intelligent people gathered since membership is only approved if shown worthwhile...

Both "promote" same philosophy, they each take a different approach about it and their inner workings. And I have to admit that how the FSC operates appeals me more then the CoS.


(I have to admit my knowledge about the two organisations are limited, CoS knowledge is based on their official forum and certain people who got kicked out/ left for various reasons. FSC knowledge is based upon what they have written down on the official site and on this forum since it is tagged as the offical forum of the FSC).


Edited by Dimitri (06/20/09 04:37 PM)
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#25843 - 06/20/09 05:13 PM Re: First Satanic Church vs. The Church Of Satan [Re: Dimitri]
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
I see.

I was under the impression there was something more than that, a different in actual philosophy rather than just organisation method.
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#25872 - 06/21/09 02:41 AM Re: First Satanic Church vs. The Church Of Satan [Re: TornadoCreator]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
They both follow Anton LaVey's philosophy. The difference is how they are ran is all. FSC runs more or less like Anton LaVey ran the CoS.

The current CoS is more of a husk of its original state where you have a bunch of priests feeling special so they treat the newer members with contempt. Its not really a very open organization and most probably due to its open arms to anyone which contradicts what they then treat them like.

I personally prefer the FSC over the CoS though CoS is the original, and i might still join, FSC is a much more religious/philosophically open group

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#26471 - 06/30/09 05:30 PM Re: First Satanic Church vs. The Church Of Satan [Re: TornadoCreator]
FromGehenna Offline
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Registered: 02/24/09
Posts: 53
It can be summed up quite simply in once sentence, people:

The Church of Satan is a commercial enterprise, the First Satanic Church is not.

The CoS follows the golden rule of any commercial business venture: "Make is as easy as possible for people to give you money."

Therefore why should they turn down some goth shmuck kid into death metal who thinks it would be cool (fuck yeah! Manson!) to have the ol' red membership card.

Peter H Gilmore may be a top-flight curator at a major New-York based museum, but it os Blanche Barton (one would assume) who receives residuals from the sale of the Satanic Bible and memberships in the CoS.

As for The Vampire Temple, don't get me even started on that crock of shit. Magister Nemo builds castles in the air and then collects rent on them! (paraphrased Quote from Douglas Adams.)

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#27099 - 07/15/09 01:28 AM Re: First Satanic Church vs. The Church Of Satan [Re: FromGehenna]
bluj666 Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/14/09
Posts: 38
Loc: Tennessee,USA
I thought one of the major differences was that the FCS is a more theistic verson of LeVay's work, while the CoS was an atheistic approach. I could be wrong.
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#27108 - 07/15/09 07:15 AM Re: First Satanic Church vs. The Church Of Satan [Re: bluj666]
Nemesis Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
You are wrong. Try going to their respective websites and reading through their manifestos. It would've taken you the same amount of time to do that, as it did to make this post stating your ignorance of the matter.
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#27119 - 07/15/09 12:51 PM Re: First Satanic Church vs. The Church Of Satan [Re: Nemesis]
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
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Actually, in defence of bluj666. I got that impression from many forums and chat rooms I had been in until a little over a year ago. Many so called "Theistic Satanists" claimed to be followers of the First Satanic Church and even those that where not theistic, considered my stance of 'theist = brainwashed fool' to be too disrespectful. There are many posers out there using the name of the FSC without actually caring if they agree with it.

Edited by TornadoCreator (07/15/09 12:52 PM)
Edit Reason: put CoS when I ment FSC
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#27124 - 07/15/09 01:21 PM Re: First Satanic Church vs. The Church Of Satan [Re: TornadoCreator]
lewisb Offline
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Registered: 03/23/09
Posts: 5
The main problem i have with the CoS is that it seems to no longer stream its members. I thought that membership of the group was for the elite of society not just for people who can afford to pay the membership fee.
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#27125 - 07/15/09 01:28 PM Re: First Satanic Church vs. The Church Of Satan [Re: TornadoCreator]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
Actually, I think it's because people get the "First Satanic Church" mixed up with the "First Church of Satan". The former is the atheistic-based organization founded by Karla LaVey based on her father's philosophy... whereas the latter is a superstitious lonely-hearts club put together by a middle-aged/overweight quasi-wiccan (and over half its' website, unsurprisingly, is devoted to discrediting LaVey rather than explaining its' own ideas)

I can't help but think that all the "Reformed First One True Church of Satan" nomenclature bullshit is all unsavoringly Christian.

If theists do ascribe to the FSC's name, it is likely because they don't look beyond the website to see what the organization's actual stance is.



Edited by The Zebu (07/15/09 01:29 PM)
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#27133 - 07/15/09 03:28 PM Re: First Satanic Church vs. The Church Of Satan [Re: The Zebu]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
TC: bluj666 was asking the difference between the churches themselves, not their followers. I'm sure there are a lot more theistic followers of CoS than atheists, despite the fact that CoS denounces theism. Don't forget, the red card = the cool factor.

Zebu: I'd completely forgotten about the First Church of Satan. It's possible that was the church bluj666 was asking about. If he was, then I retract my above post.

Bluj666: You can see that there are quite a number of acronyms floating around. CoS is, as you know, The Church of Satan, run by Gilmore (at least officially ;\)). FSC is the First Satanic Church (as Zebu mentioned) and was started by Anton's daughter Karla LaVey. This site is also affiliated with Karla's church. FCS is The First Church of Satan, more the theistic, Wiccan, "dark path" kind of Satanism that appeals to the goth kids who need something to replace Christianity with. Which ones exactly were you comparing?
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#27156 - 07/16/09 12:33 AM Re: First Satanic Church vs. The Church Of Satan [Re: Nemesis]
hellbent666
Unregistered



Dude, I take an enormous amount of offense to how you talk about Allee. He is an amazing man, and his life was almost ruined by the CoS. Imagine your whole community thinking you are a child molester because some moody bitch over at the CoS said you were and got everyone to believe them. He's also an accomplished black magician. Please, while he still is around lets be respectful of him and his accomplishments. He is a genuinely good man, and his wife is really cool too.
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#27162 - 07/16/09 01:28 AM Re: First Satanic Church vs. The Church Of Satan [Re: Nemesis]
bluj666 Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/14/09
Posts: 38
Loc: Tennessee,USA
Well the reason I thought the FSC was Theistic was because its claim to being more along the lines of LeVays teachings. Which several of the Orginal members of LaVeys satanic church claim that in private practices and meetings that LeVay beleived in a literal satan and the powers of the rituals they practiced, and that the atheistic stance was more for commercial appearance. Former members such as the ones that started the Temple of Set.
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