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#53555 - 04/27/11 10:12 AM Re: Disneyland [Re: The Zebu]
Zakary Offline
pledge


Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 75
I find it amusing that people that define themselves as Satanists search for purity and righteousness in ideology. Tisk tisk tisk, no sooner are you set free do you ask to have your shackles fastened again. Do not look towards Churches and Orders for guidance.... this unSatanic in the highest order. The CoS the ToS the ONA ( and who claim to be apart of it that anyone can verify, which means it could be an elaborate hoax? ) are all recent devices..... look beyond such things or you find yourself back on your knees........
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#53558 - 04/27/11 01:34 PM Re: Disneyland [Re: Zakary]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
What gives you the idea that anyone here submits to an ideology? We live it, because it's who we are. Groups, churches and temples are what we use, if we're so inclined. How you managed to twist this upside-down is beyond me, but I'd be happy to hear your reasoning.
_________________________
"I'd rather be right than consistent" - Winston Churchill

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#53567 - 04/27/11 05:16 PM Re: Disneyland [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Zakary Offline
pledge


Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 75
Hmmmm.......... well Anton used the idea and format of a Church greatly for the irony I think....... unless you grew up in the 60s you probably couldn't appreciate the way the CoS used some of symbology and metaphors used by LaVey..... But again lets get back to your question......? What do I mean? What I means is we, and I mean those of the lhp do not subject ourselves to the institutions and rules of others in a sheep like fashion. As you suggest...... yes we might 'use a church or temple', the operative word is 'use', or enter into an arrangement for mutual gain........ but never as a devotee to someones ideology or leadership...... this for rhp cattle is it not? I know many will disagree and stamp hooves but what makes us what we are is rebellion, rebellion against the fallibility of man.
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#53568 - 04/27/11 05:29 PM Re: Disneyland [Re: Zakary]
SkaffenAmtiskaw Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 1318
Depends on how you figure such a relationship to be submissive. Adhering to a church, a temple or an organization for your own ends means you have to share. If such are your druthers, then you may benefit.

My question here is how you construe this as a temple. No one here has submitted to anything other than a code of conduct to participate in an online forum. If people participate in churches or temples, that is their own prerogative, intended to further their own ends.

As for submitting to the ideology of Satanism - no bending was required. This is who I am. The shoe fits. I don't call myself a Satanist out of affectation. I call myself that because it's who I am.
_________________________
"I'd rather be right than consistent" - Winston Churchill

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#53572 - 04/27/11 06:09 PM Re: Disneyland [Re: Zakary]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Zakary
As you suggest...... yes we might 'use a church or temple', the operative word is 'use', or enter into an arrangement for mutual gain........ but never as a devotee to someones ideology or leadership...... this for rhp cattle is it not? I know many will disagree and stamp hooves but what makes us what we are is rebellion, rebellion against the fallibility of man.


So you submit to no rules... except this one. And you somehow determine that this is what everyone else is as well. Interesting.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#53576 - 04/27/11 06:38 PM Re: Disneyland [Re: Jake999]
Shea Offline
member


Registered: 03/24/11
Posts: 108
Loc: Chicago
The idea that there is freedom without barriers (either self-imposed or externally imposed) is an idealistic fallacy. Those who embrace the idea of pure rebellion often end up making a master of the idea of rebellion for rebellion's sake.

Like SkaffenAmtiskaw points out, the most important and necessary aspect of Satanism is not iconoclasm or the act of "pure" rebellion but just the necessity that one see themselves reflected in the religion--no backwards bending or submission at all necessary.

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#53577 - 04/27/11 07:03 PM Re: Disneyland [Re: Shea]
Zakary Offline
pledge


Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 75
Hmmmm....... some very serious and interesting insight here indeed....... I think we all know very well what I mean don't we....... Yes rebellion for rebellions sake is silly...... no doubt? I'm talking about rejection of herd conformity........ Look, you will always have schisms..... amongst adherents to religions and ideologies.... the 'those that know best brigade'. The important thing is principles.
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#53578 - 04/27/11 07:06 PM Re: Disneyland [Re: Shea]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Exactly.

Rebellion for rebellion's sake is meaningless. Being in opposition does not mean simply opposing. It means not blindly accepting... not rejection of everything based on some precondition of rebellion against anything and everything. Satanism also champions pride, but we also recognize when pride is arrogant and counterproductive and that is a sin against one's own self interests. Dichotomies exist. The wise Satanist learns that early and learns that one can live with dichotomy, so long as they do so with an open mind.

So if something is in actual opposition to the way you need to live your life, certainly you find a way to oppose it. If a law is on the books that says you will not eat strawberries on Wednesday, and you feel like eating strawberries on Wednesday, then you eat strawberries on Wednesday. It doesn't make you a hero. It doesn't make you a rebel. It doesn't make you a Satanist. What it makes you is a person who saw a need and an illogical barrier to fulfilling that need, so he came up with a solution that was right for him.

Others might come up with a different logic and solution for THEIR life, but that is what Satanism is. It's YOUR life... you make what decisions you need to make and move on. If they are at odds with the world around you, then they are at odds with the world around you. It only matters in you life if it suits your need and not some sense of counterproductive pride, as if you saw the law that said, "Do not eat strawberries on Wednesday" and, deciding, "Nobody tells me what to do," scarfed down a flat of the fruit out of spite... never mind that you are deathly allergic to strawberries. When you let counterproductive pride obscure your judgement, you may make a point... but make sure you have the antidote in your pocket.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#53589 - 04/28/11 02:48 AM Re: Disneyland [Re: Jake999]
Zakary Offline
pledge


Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 75
Yes I agree totally with you. But then again I've read your posts over the years and agree with your particular approach on most things. I would catagorize myself as a LeVayean Satanist if anything...... if I had to define my way of thinking in a few words. I also believe that Satan is a dark force within nature, not unlike LaVey. I don't think the CoS and FCoS are different in this respect. I would also accept the title of 'theistic Satanist' in this sense, the recognition of this force/archetype/dynamic. However, not in the Judaic sense of a god that one worships of course. I suppose this is why many consider 'theism' in Satanism a contridiction...... which from a semantic point of view it is I guess...... I can also appreciate the ToS's position in this context. A question I have is: do people think the difference between the CoS FCoS and ToS is a semantic one? seeings they all recognise this 'dark force'. What do you think?
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#53590 - 04/28/11 03:09 AM Re: Disneyland [Re: Zakary]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
I can't speak for TODAY's Church of Satan under Peter Gilmore, or for FCOS... although I don't think that Karla or Dr. LaVey would think that the differences between Satanism in the LaVey mind and the Temple of Set were merely semantic.

The Dark Force of which you speak in either The Church of Satan (ASLV) or the FCOS is in no way a conscious entity or has any real concern with humanity in general. It simply IS... it's part of the natural dichotomy. And while we might term it "satanic," any relationship we have with it is a symbolic thing... a wish to find a way to use that dark force for our advantage. It doesn't care about us, any more than electricity or magnetism cares about us, but like those more recognizable forms of energy, if one can find the way to interact with it, who knows what power might be wrought. I personally think of it as something like "chi," only on a wider scale.

Now, when you contrast this nebulous force with what even the most benign theist sees in his "god," you see that there's a need there to "touch the face of god," and to interact with him and gain his (or her, not to be sexist) benefits personally. The "gift of Set" is telling, in that it shows that there is a personal attachment, not really all that different between the way Christians view their relationship with Jesus of their "God." Sure, there are trappings of darkness, and spooky titles and books... but the personal nature of the connection is something that just doesn't fit with the LaVey dynamic.

That said, there are times in ritualization that one might indeed personalize this connection with that "dark force," but one has to remember that this is in context of a psychodramatic presentation. It is, by it's very nature, a voluntary suspended disbelief, allowing one to emotionally touch what the mind intellectually knows is unreal... like immersing oneself into the plot of a movie that's grabbed your mind and takes you along on the director's vision of the artist's script. Once you leave the intellectual decompression chamber, life is as it was, and the world the faculties perceive as reality returns.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#53592 - 04/28/11 05:56 AM Re: Disneyland [Re: Jake999]
Zakary Offline
pledge


Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 75
Yes I suppose it comes down to the desired mode of experiencing the dark forces. I think that in the end it may be all the same or a means to the same ends. The practise of ritual and magic in the context of invocation and application is about the development and expression of the self...... 'Satan manifest in flesh' if you like? Or perhaps the process is about an interplay between the external environment and the mind..... ' when I find god I find purpose and definition thus I find myself'. Perhaps in this manor the theistic Satanist looks for the personification and characterisation of Satan in symbolism to obtain a refined concept of self and meaning, almost like an externalised form of internal development?
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#61177 - 11/06/11 07:42 AM Re: Disneyland [Re: Zakary]
111Cal Offline
member


Registered: 12/22/09
Posts: 143
neither the CoS or the FSC are true heirs to LaVeyan Satanism.....

clearly Gilmore is a competent man, who makes a nice side living off the CoS and loves the attention (like the nerdy boy in high school who wanted to be heard) but the changes post - ASL have turned it into a vampire-fan club that offers nothing, and does nothing.

the FSC has not grown at all since ASL's death, and Karla tends to use it more as an avenue to promote live shows and events that she enjoys, and not as anything more....

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#61190 - 11/06/11 01:48 PM Re: Disneyland [Re: 111Cal]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1641
Loc: Orlando, FL
I don't see how one can judge an organization as "the heir" to LaVey's ideas when they don't need an organization in the first place. The only standard you have to go off of is LaVey's PR presence, in which case the standard of a philosophical legacy degenerates into shallow showmanship.

Besides, I think we're railed on the CoS and its splinters enough for for not picking up the slack. I don't see the need to piss on what is now submerged under an ocean of piss.


Edited by The Zebu (11/06/11 01:49 PM)
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