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#26003 - 06/22/09 10:55 PM Satanism and Dogma.
Dan_Dread Offline
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Time and time again I hear it demonized and see it vilified: dogma

The Satanic Bible clearly states 'Man needs ritual and dogma' and it is this very need for dogma that is Satisfied by the Satanic religion.
Yet so many that would attempt to shoehorn themselves into the label of Satanist just don't seem to get it. They scoff at any attempt to solidify a worldview as they cry out 'closed minded!'

Satanism is a description. A description of a certain type of person and a certain set of views, or one rather tangible world view. We know each other almost immediately based on these traits, and that's just that. Satanism and Satanist are words that mean something.

When a word ceases to have definition it degenerates into no more than a sound, no better than a primal grunt. This primal grunt is what many would turn Satanism into. A meaningless nothing. It has gotten so bad that there exists those, even among our very ranks, that would cry foul when any sort of borders or qualifications are placed on what it means to BE a Satanist.

Well guess what kiddies? Satanism is NOT anything goes. It is not a feel good religion that you can shape and mold to fit you. You either fit the suit, or you do not. It is what it is. If it doesn't fit you, or if you feel the need to change it or adapt it to fit yourself, you are engaging in self deception. You aren't the real deal.
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#26007 - 06/22/09 11:29 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dan_Dread]
TornadoCreator Offline
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I find myself agreeing with you for the most part however considering that the entire point behind Satanism is self worship and discovering and perfecting your identity. This alone makes Satanism a very different experience for everyone but there are values that are very definitely set that should be present in all Satanists, otherwise they're not really Satanists, they're just people who have a similar philosophy and share some ideals with Satanists.
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#26014 - 06/23/09 01:44 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Meq Offline
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That man NEEDS dogma was one of Anton LaVey's opinions, not an axiomatic fact.

And yet The Satanic Bible also says:
 Originally Posted By: The Satanic Bible
No hoary falsehood shall be a truth to me; no stifling dogma shall encramp my pen!

And also:
 Originally Posted By: The Satanic Bible
No moral dogma must be taken for grantedóno standard of measurement deified. There is nothing inherently sacred about moral codes. Like the wooden idols of long ago, they are the work of human hands, and what man has made, man can destroy!

(Which is quite contrary to the notion that: "That X is wrong is absolutely axiomatic and not up for debate. Anyone that doesn't agree is a piece of shit in my eyes. End of story.")


Several other quotes from LaVey however put his concept of 'dogma' in its place:
 Originally Posted By: The Satanic Bible
The one need that psychiatry cannot fill is manís inherent need for emotionalizing through dogma. Man needs ceremony and ritual, fantasy and enchantment. Psychiatry, despite all the good it has done, has robbed man of wonder and fantasy which religion, in the past, has provided.
Satanism, realizing the current needs of man, fills the large grey void between religion and psychiatry. The Satanic philosophy combines the fundamentals of psychology and good, honest emotionalizing, or dogma. It provides man with his much needed fantasy.

So dogma to a Satanist is still fantasy, not fact, something more at home in the psychodramatic ritual chamber than on a philosophical discussion board.
Anton LaVey's discussion of the Satanic Sin of self-deceit bears this out:

 Originally Posted By: Anton Szandor LaVey
The only time self-deceit should be entered into is when itís fun, and with awareness. But then, itís not self-deceit!

The difference between a Satanic dogmatist, one would hope at least, is that the Satanist is aware that he is deceiving himself, unlike other religionists who take their dogma to be axiomatic fact.

At least, one would hope.

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#26024 - 06/23/09 06:11 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Meq Offline
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Just to add, that if the reasons one gives for buying into a dogma are mostly:
1) "I read it in a book", and
2) "It feels right",
with no further questions or justifications needed -
then such a stance is at bottom no different to faith...

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#26028 - 06/23/09 07:49 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Meq]
Dan_Dread Offline
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1:Ritual and dogma aren't the same thing. I'm not sure how you managed to conclude that they are.

2:There is no explaining Satanism to non Satanists. You're born with it or you are not. You are so far off the mark here it's hard to even tell what you are aiming at. I'll break it down point by point for those that don't already find this obvious when I am not rushing to get to work.

More to come!
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#26030 - 06/23/09 08:01 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Dimitri Offline
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 Quote:
Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, ideology or any kind of organization: it is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted or diverged from.


The point (IMO) Lavey is taking about the "need for dogma" is just to have a grip on something authorative. When reading the whole passage I see that a dogma is neccesary but that you shouldn't forget the change of mind when confronted with something new and more rational.
The dogma referred to in Satanism is just the points of view a Satanist has achieved by stating his arguments and ideas with common-sense back-up from other works (or evidences) which are hard/impossible to discredit.

As Meq quoted from the SB:
 Originally Posted By: Satanic Bible
]No hoary falsehood shall be a truth to me; no stifling dogma shall encramp my pen!


 Originally Posted By: Satanic Bible

No moral dogma must be taken for grantedóno standard of measurement deified. There is nothing inherently sacred about moral codes. Like the wooden idols of long ago, they are the work of human hands, and what man has made, man can destroy!

This implies that Satanists have a certain "Dogma" but are willingly to change/modify when needed to.


Edited by Dimitri (06/23/09 08:04 AM)
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#26032 - 06/23/09 08:08 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Meq]
TornadoCreator Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Meq
The difference between a Satanic dogmatist, one would hope at least, is that the Satanist is aware that he is deceiving himself, unlike other religionists who take their dogma to be axiomatic fact.

At least, one would hope.


I would say that the difference from where I'm standing anyway, is that the Satanist will accept the "dogma" without doing it blindly. I'm prepared to drop any part of Satanism should it be shown to me that it's unreasonable or inaccurate. If it's one or two minor points, I will still call myself Satanist. If it's something major, that's when I would say I'm no longer a Satanist. It's not true Dogma because unlike other religions you're welcome to challenge the ideals, it's just doing so means the label no longer applies to you.
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#26034 - 06/23/09 08:36 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Meq Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
1:Ritual and dogma aren't the same thing. I'm not sure how you managed to conclude that they are.

I never said ritual and dogma are the same thing.
I said dogma belongs in the ritual chamber, and not as an axiomatic point of debate.

 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
There is no explaining Satanism to non Satanists. You're born with it or you are not... I'll break it down point by point for those that don't already find this obvious when I am not rushing to get to work.

Then wouldn't it be a waste of time to even try explaining it to us poor 'non-Satanists'? ;\)

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#26035 - 06/23/09 09:22 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Meq Offline
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Question:
Would you describe your stance on Satanism as:

"To those who understand, no explanation is necessary; to those who don't, none is possible"?

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#26042 - 06/23/09 11:29 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Meq]
TornadoCreator Offline
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"To those who understand, no explanation is necessary; to those who don't, none is possible"?

Sounds like a licence to be as elitist as you want. Don't need to justify anything, just make sure you agree with and grovel with the person above and treat everyone below you like shit because they haven't reached your level of enlightenment. Even the Jedi ain't that bad.
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#26044 - 06/23/09 11:48 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: TornadoCreator]
Meq Offline
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That's an example of what Ayn Rand called a neo-mystical epistemology.
And not in a complimentary way either.

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#26050 - 06/23/09 03:36 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Meq]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Ok here it is. First, on Satanic Dogma. Dogma in this context can be defined as "A principle or belief or a group of them". That is to say, dogma is a recorded belief set or system of principles.

It doesn't really sound like you know what dogma means when you say it is fantasy or belongs in the ritual chamber. Dogma has nothing to do with ritual and everything to do with core beliefs and principles, which apply not to any ritual chamber but to every day conduct, ie real life.

 Quote:

(Which is quite contrary to the notion that: "That X is wrong is absolutely axiomatic and not up for debate. Anyone that doesn't agree is a piece of shit in my eyes. End of story.")


You seem to see no distinction between unexamined, ie faith based conclusions and conclusions reached through due reasonable course. The proposition in question here, from last nights chat, is 'child molestation'. Yes, I will say that child molestation is wrong, axiomatically, and anyone who disagrees IS a piece of shit. If you are afraid of ever drawing any conclusions or being passionate about anything you must be one hell of a boring mofo.


 Quote:

Just to add, that if the reasons one gives for buying into a dogma are mostly:
1) "I read it in a book", and
2) "It feels right",
with no further questions or justifications needed -
then such a stance is at bottom no different to faith...

As you posted this to me I can only assume you are trying to assign me this position, which I will not accept. I do not accept any propositions on faith.

Having faith is accepting an unexamined or unexaminable premise as true. To someone with the core nature of a Satanist, Satanic dogma simply describes (a) position(s) held universally by those that can accurately be described as Satanists. I have thoroughly examined Satanism, picked away at it with an axe, been the only Satanist on many forums such as this, (opening my beliefs and opinions on the matter to a red hot trial by fire) and found the principles to be in accord with who I am, on a very base and bedrock level. Over 16 years of my life I have used this label to describe myself, and believe you me would drop it in a heartbeat were I to suddenly discover it didn't fit. (which seems pretty unlikely at this point)

Satanism is a description of something that is. You either get it right away, or never.
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#26053 - 06/23/09 04:15 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dan_Dread]
TornadoCreator Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread

 Quote:

(Which is quite contrary to the notion that: "That X is wrong is absolutely axiomatic and not up for debate. Anyone that doesn't agree is a piece of shit in my eyes. End of story.")


You seem to see no distinction between unexamined, ie faith based conclusions and conclusions reached through due reasonable course. The proposition in question here, from last nights chat, is 'child molestation'. Yes, I will say that child molestation is wrong, axiomatically, and anyone who disagrees IS a piece of shit. If you are afraid of ever drawing any conclusions or being passionate about anything you must be one hell of a boring mofo.


So... to dumb this down, just so you can see how stupid this is.

"Child molestation is wrong because it's wrong to molest children" - this is your claim.

This is called circular logic or begging the question. Here's a different example of circular logic.

"The Bible is the inspired word of God because it says so in The Bible" - we're all familiar with this bullshit right.

Whether child molestation is wrong or not your argument is nothing but a logical fallacy followed by an appeal to force, by claiming anyone who disagrees should die horribly.

 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
 Quote:

Just to add, that if the reasons one gives for buying into a dogma are mostly:
1) "I read it in a book", and
2) "It feels right",
with no further questions or justifications needed -
then such a stance is at bottom no different to faith...

As you posted this to me I can only assume you are trying to assign me this position, which I will not accept. I do not accept any propositions on faith.

Having faith is accepting an unexamined or unexaminable premise as true. To someone with the core nature of a Satanist, Satanic dogma simply describes (a) position(s) held universally by those that can accurately be described as Satanists. I have thoroughly examined Satanism, picked away at it with an axe, been the only Satanist on many forums such as this, (opening my beliefs and opinions on the matter to a red hot trial by fire) and found the principles to be in accord with who I am, on a very base and bedrock level. Over 16 years of my life I have used this label to describe myself, and believe you me would drop it in a heartbeat were I to suddenly discover it didn't fit. (which seems pretty unlikely at this point)

Satanism is a description of something that is. You either get it right away, or never.

This is just elitist bullshit. You're claiming you are entitled to use the label Satanist and other people can't, that's just an adult way of saying "I'm better than you are". It's almost as though this falls under the heading of another logical fallacy, the No True Scotsman Fallacy.

You're really bad at this debating lark aren't you Dan.
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#26054 - 06/23/09 04:25 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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 Quote:
Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, ideology or any kind of organization: it is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted or diverged from. The term derives from Greek δόγμα "that which seems to one, opinion or belief" and that from δοκέω (dokeo), "to think, to suppose, to imagine". The plural is either dogmas or dogmata , from Greek δόγματα.

At the core of the dogma concept is absolutism, infallibility, irrefutability, unquestioned acceptance (among adherents) and anti-skepticism. These concepts typically invoke criticism from moderate and modulated conceptual approaches, and thus "dogma" is often colloquially used to indicate a doctrine which has the problem of claiming absolute truth, when other concepts may be superior.


Try to fit this into Satanism and you simultaneously fit yourself out.

D.

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#26055 - 06/23/09 04:38 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Why is it as soon as 'child molesting' is mentioned, anywhere, TC comes in guns blazing?

I'm really noticing a disturbing trend here.

 Quote:

So... to dumb this down, just so you can see how stupid this is.

"Child molestation is wrong because it's wrong to molest children" - this is your claim.

In your hurried huff to defend everything that is kiddy diddling you overlooked one rather important point, tc. I did not make that claim at all. You are either deliberately lying or you aren't so good at this reading 'lark'. There are multiple reasons why I have concluded what I have about child molestation, and none of them are 'because it's wrong to molest children'.

 Quote:

his is just elitist bullshit. You're claiming you are entitled to use the label Satanist and other people can't, that's just an adult way of saying "I'm better than you are".

I am saying Satanism has already been defined, and if you don't like it, tough beans. If you want to believe in unicorns and 3 legged devils and claim that is the way of true Satanism, go right ahead. Just don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

You do seem the type to prefer egalitarianism over elitism, though. Fat unemployed (pedophile?) damaged goods that you are, why wouldn't you?
;\)
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#26056 - 06/23/09 04:42 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Quote:

Try to fit this into Satanism and you simultaneously fit yourself out.

Sure, if you use that definition. I already stated the definition I was working under, which you posted in part.
 Quote:

The term derives from Greek δόγμα "that which seems to one, opinion or belief"

Ie, a set of beliefs or principles.
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#26058 - 06/23/09 05:02 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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Doubt is one of the essentials in Satanism and I feel kinda sad that especially I do have to mention elementary concepts of Satanism to satanists. Nothing is holy, nothing is beyond doubt. If something can't be doubted or mentioned; our first response should be "Why?".

At some level I find it rather appalling that I am seeing scripture being used as evidence why satanists can't have certain opinions or question certain subjects. That kind of behavior is of such a weakness that it offends me. I'm following the whole argument for a while now and I am wondering in what religious sect I suddenly ended up. The urge of some to have their fixed views pressed into other's minds is going rampant. If people can't live with the fact that not all will agree with them, that some have other ideas, too bad for them and screw them I'd say. It's weakness and in essence deeply religious; one truth, one word and we all have to submit or be considered sinners.

Society tries to force us to not question certain subjects, as does religion out there. The very fact that we are what we are is because we started questioning things in the first place. We are iconoclasts and even when we accept something as true or good or correct, we realize it is only to US like that.

So please let's quit this whole scripture shit about what was said at what page of what book by whom. THAT never was the intention to begin with. THAT is an elementary mistake I only expect to be done by either starters on the path or by hardcore LttD drones.

D.

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#26060 - 06/23/09 05:11 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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As I have mentioned, and indeed partly why I started this thread is I feel there is an important distinction between EXAMINING a premise and coming to a conclusion, and believing something on faith.
I HAVE questioned, requestioned, battered and tried with all my might, over and over again, to test and try the boundaries of Satanism. I find your assumptions that I would just take anything on faith, despite my repeated attempts to explain to the contrary, to be both flippant and insulting.

As I have also said many times over, but I will explain to you one more time, is that 'Satanist' is a label given to a certain type of person with a certain type of outlook. Take that away and the word becomes meaningless. Why call yourself a Satanist at all if you question the philosophy and find it lacking, or in discord with what you really believe?

How many more times am I going to have to explain this?

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#26063 - 06/23/09 05:27 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Dimitri Offline
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 Quote:
I HAVE questioned, requestioned, battered and tried with all my might, over and over again, to test and try the boundaries of Satanism.

What bounderies? Wasn't Satanism also about self-improvement and praising your own individual being? If there are bounderies in Satanism then it are the bounderies a person has set up for himself.

 Quote:
As I have also said many times over, but I will explain to you one more time, is that 'Satanist' is a label given to a certain type of person with a certain type of outlook. Take that away and the word becomes meaningless. Why call yourself a Satanist at all if you question the philosophy and find it lacking, or in discord with what you really believe?

I agree with you about "stripping the label away and the word is meaningless". But why shouldn't a person or a Satanist be critical towards it's philosophy? Being critical to one's own philosophy is being critical to yourself and it is one of the major steps for personal advancement. If one fails to be critical to it's own thinking how can be supposed a person can still make coherent thoughts? Answer is simply: it can't.
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#26066 - 06/23/09 06:12 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Nemesis Offline
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 Quote:
Fat unemployed (pedophile?) damaged goods that you are, why wouldn't you?
;\)


Keep this on track, Skippy. No need to bring name-calling into the discussion.
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#26070 - 06/23/09 06:32 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Nemesis]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Well to be fair, fat and unemployed are descriptions of himself he has posted already, and if he isn't a pedo he certainly seems to have their best interests at heart.

But, duly noted miss moderator \:\)
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#26071 - 06/23/09 06:43 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dimitri]
Dan_Dread Offline
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I am beginning to wonder if intelligent life exists here..

 Quote:
If there are bounderies in Satanism then it are the bounderies a person has set up for himself.

This in a nutshell is everything I hate about you 'reformist' wannabes. Satanism is what it is, you either fit it or you don't. To try is to lie.
If you want to follow your own footloose and fancy free ideals, or feel limited by Satanism as it is, what the fuck are you doing here? Posers..



 Quote:

I agree with you about "stripping the label away and the word is meaningless". But why shouldn't a person or a Satanist be critical towards it's philosophy? Being critical to one's own philosophy is being critical to yourself and it is one of the major steps for personal advancement.

Does anyone know how to read anymore?
If you think I said anything about NOT questioning...holy shit man I made my point..the exact oposite point..clear as day about ten times now. If you aren't comprehending at this point, there is truly no hope for you.
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#26072 - 06/23/09 06:46 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Nemesis]
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Just using Quick Reply

People seem to be forgetting that just because it is good to question all belief, especially personally held and emotionally charged ones; it doesn't mean you also have to drop these beliefs altogether. Question them, yes, but if you have no good reason to doubt there is no need drop them.

This can be said about a dogma, be it Satanic dogma or otherwise. Question those ideas and beliefs, but you don't have to drop them if they fit for you. Nothing is sacred and all will be challegened but if "it" stands up to the challenge then it stands up to the challenge.

While it's funny that it is claimed "Man needs dogma" (dogma being strongly held belief(s) that is not to be strayed from or questioned) by a Satanist (Satanism from "Satan" to accuse or question), that statement rings true to me. People "like" having strong convictions, opinions and beliefs. Whether those be: "child molesting is wrong" or "No one performs cunnilingus as well as me" don't really matter.

One should look inward, though, questioning those beliefs so they aren't faith based and if they fit and if you feel there is "good" reason to have them, then don't drop them. If they don't fit or if at a later point in time you have a change of heart then drop them.

Sorry if I kind of went off topic there, I just got off work and am a little scatter-brained at the moment.
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#26073 - 06/23/09 06:48 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Quote:

People seem to be forgetting that just because it is good to question all belief, especially personally held and emotionally charged ones; it doesn't mean you also have to drop these beliefs altogether. Question them, yes, but if you have no good reason to doubt there is no need drop them.

HOLY FUCK someone gets it.

Give this man a cigar!
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#26093 - 06/24/09 01:05 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Dimitri Offline
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 Quote:
This in a nutshell is everything I hate about you 'reformist' wannabes. Satanism is what it is, you either fit it or you don't. To try is to lie.

Reforming? I was just speaking about self-improvement, not changing the definition of Satanism... Feeling limited by Satanism as it is? Never had the feeling, then again can I ask why you spoke about bounderies of Satanism?


Edited by Dimitri (06/24/09 01:06 AM)
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#26118 - 06/24/09 11:16 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Mike Offline
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(replying to the original post)

This isn't the first time you've brought up this topic. Maybe it was in the chat room or perhaps a different thread, but I do remember this topic. Now when you quote LaVey concerning dogma, I'm assuming he wasn't referring to just any dogma. Certainly Christians don't need the 10 commandments, as most religionists don't need their religious dogma to survive either. By dogma, could he have just meant rules or guidelines that could be set out by the individual, which would tie into the self-deification idea? Meaning since I am my own god, create my own morals and rules that apply to my life? If so, why did he then present Satanic dogma for Satanists to follow? Perhaps the Satanic dogma he presented was meant only to be there as a reference to what Satanists already follow.

Also,

 Quote:

Well guess what kiddies? Satanism is NOT anything goes. It is not a feel good religion that you can shape and mold to fit you. You either fit the suit, or you do not. It is what it is. If it doesn't fit you, or if you feel the need to change it or adapt it to fit yourself, you are engaging in self deception. You aren't the real deal.


Now exactly how does that relate to what you said about dogma? That if a person is truly a Satanist and were born that way then they will agree with every aspect of Satanism, including following Satanic dogma? I only ask because it seems so simple to understand.


Edited by Mike (06/24/09 11:21 AM)
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#26120 - 06/24/09 11:23 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dimitri]
Mike Offline
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What Dan is saying is that you can't call yourself a Satanist when there are rules and regulations to Satanism and you make up your own rules which are separate from Satanism.
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#26122 - 06/24/09 01:32 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Mike]
Dimitri Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Mike
What Dan is saying is that you can't call yourself a Satanist when there are rules and regulations to Satanism and you make up your own rules which are separate from Satanism.

Reread my last response closer mikey, already said I wasn't talking about "reforming the rules". Just basically pointing out things about self-improvement..

For having an in-depth view check out my comment at the topic about taboo's Morgan posted.



Edited by Dimitri (06/24/09 01:34 PM)
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#26123 - 06/24/09 02:26 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dimitri]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
And by self-improvement you mean adding your own piece of whatever to your basic beliefs?
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#26124 - 06/24/09 02:32 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Mike]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3110
http://www.the600club.com/dir/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/26100/Main/2085/#Post26100
To make it more easy...
And no, not adding a new piece. The self-improvement I was talking about is getting a bit out of context. I questioned Dan about his "testing and trying about the bounderies of Satanism" and merely stated that the only bounderies I know from this philosophy are the ones one set up for/from self-improvement.

And also made the statement that questioning things doesn't mean implementing new things into something already decent. Even so, questioning things don't mean "reforming" as Dan said since questioning has multiple functions...


Edited by Dimitri (06/24/09 02:35 PM)
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#26126 - 06/24/09 02:52 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Mike]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
But of course you can call yourself a satanist when you don't agree with the rules. As a matter of fact, there are likely more people calling themselves one that are not agreeing with everything than there are totally agreeing. So what makes someone a true satanist then? Faith and faith alone. You can't even say they are true because they are in accordance with the rules and regulations because in that case, you only move the problem to the book. The idea that the rules and regulations describe what a true satanist is, is again a matter of faith.

So what it basically boils down to is that some their Satanism is truer than other their Satanism and in that, it is a religious battle.

D.

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#26127 - 06/24/09 03:14 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dimitri]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Shit guys,

The day anyone takes Antonís work as anything other than something he did for anyone but himself. The day you start to believe his words as scripture and need to start quoting them as such. The day you start to think that Satanism has no room for growth or no room to evolve. The day you stop following your own rules to follow those of another man. Well to me that is the day that the title Satanist no longer fits you.

But as I have been led to believe there is a group just like this. They hold their beliefs and the words of Anton as the one true way. They are called the Church of Satan. Just $200 and you can be a member. I think their forum is free. Go try it on real Satanist.

Smart man Mr. LaVay selling people exactly what he was selling against. A lot of what is written in the Satanic Bible is purposely vague, no wonder there was such a split early on.

A longtime friend who was sick of me living blinded to what I really am handed me the book. He explained that the second half of the book was strictly there for those who need dogma. Knowing who I am as we were friends for 19 years at this point he knew I have no need for ritual or dogma of any kind, as he himself did not.

Sadly I had read the satanic rituals 10 years before and thought it mostly a bunch of hogwash. I was a keyboardist at a young age so the mention of using a moog organ to set the tone really threw me. Now I can at least look at it as a basic understanding of what drives the common human animal.

Funny really anyone wanting to find the information can read all about Antonís papers which formed the first half of the book and then the second half of filler put there to confuse others as well as to ďfill itĒ out to a whole book.

~T~

Edit: I have to add that there are core beliefs that are followed by many using this title, funny that many claiming to be theistic follow these same core beliefs. Such as the satanic statements.


Edited by ta2zz (06/24/09 03:19 PM)
Edit Reason: marked
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#26130 - 06/24/09 03:26 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: ta2zz]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3110
 Quote:
I have to add that there are core beliefs that are followed by many using this title, funny that many claiming to be theistic follow these same core beliefs. Such as the satanic statements.

Common-sense is something you simply can't pass as a lie if you claim to be "enlighted"..
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#26133 - 06/24/09 04:14 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dimitri]
hellbent666
Unregistered



I read most of this thread and this sounds like the same crap I was spewing before about Satanism. A very high ranking CoS ToV member by the name of Nemo will telly you that doubt and skepticism are crucial aspects of Satanism. Out of everyone I listened to on that "other" forum ;\) he made the most sense. Believing anything on blind faith is stupid especially if there is sufficient proof stating otherwise.

Satanism really isn't a Platonic Form, most theology experts or people that studied in xtian seminary will even have a hard time calling us a "religion" they much prefer the title "philosophy", I also prefer this explanation. I had a falling out with elitists from another forum. I didn't drop the title because I had issues with the philosophy, but the attitudes of the members. Mainly attitudes like the topic starter's. I don't want to be associated with elitist, pompous, goody goody's.

I agree with having and holding onto strong ideals and opinions but not to get in the way of other people's lives. Live and let live!

Oh! One more thing...Ancient Greeks had no word for pedophilia and homosexuality. It was a common practice for men to take boys and school them in gay sex. Women were only for the continuation of the civilization and to keep house. I'm not agreeing with these practices but this goes back to the taboo thread recently posted and kinda relates to the moral opinions of this thread.

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#26148 - 06/24/09 07:18 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: ]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Yes I am an elitist. I can't imagine a Satanist NOT being an elitist. What is the alternative, egalitarianism?

Egalitarian Satanism? Excuse me while I laugh heartily and mock you.

As for 'Live and let live', well on the surface that works, until your interests conflict with someone elses. At this point I can assume you would meekly back away for fear of 'getting in the way of someones life'?

No, We Satanists are our own gods and pursue our own interests, fearlessly.

And lastly, are you really trying to use relativism to defend pedophilia? For starters relativism reeks of weakness. Grow a set and get some convictions. You pretend like you are a Satanist yet lack the right stuff to really be your own god.

I can see why they banned you. You are quite fortunate the standards here have been slipping as of late.
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#26166 - 06/24/09 11:41 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: "Mike"

Now exactly how does that relate to what you said about dogma? That if a person is truly a Satanist and were born that way then they will agree with every aspect of Satanism, including following Satanic dogma? I only ask because it seems so simple to understand.


Sorry Mike, I seem to have missed your post in the first go. You Really hit the nail on the head here. If you just naturally find Satanism RIGHT, meaning you find yourself agreeing with it as described, well there is a good chance you might be a Satanist.

If you read TSB and it ISNT 'simple to understand' or feels wrong/childish/complicated/foreign/<insert adjective here> you probably aren't.
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#26171 - 06/25/09 12:17 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dan_Dread]
hellbent666
Unregistered



awwww, how cute! You make assumptions too! Precious. I wasn't defending pedophilia I was stating a historical fact. Apparently YOU cannot read.
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#26173 - 06/25/09 12:24 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: ]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Well you actually were, although you don't even seem to realize it. You are using moral relativity to bring to light the fact that some people, at some time, on a grand scale believed pedophilia to be perfectly fine. I get that you were only using this as an example to put forth moral relativity, and that is why I responded in the context that I did.

I read quite well, thank you.

I do pretty much everything that I do , well.

It's really great being me.
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#26174 - 06/25/09 12:24 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dan_Dread]
hellbent666
Unregistered



One more thing. Who fucking cares except you?! Why does a title such as "Satanist" mean so much to you. Do you think I care what your elitist ass thinks? LOL! You got me mixed up with someone that gives 2 shits a flying fuck! Dude, one harsh realization you will undoubtedly have to come to grips with, assuming (look I can assume too!) you want friends, is "everyone has a stinking ass" and yessir your ass stinks just like everyone else's. I bet you think you fart roses and shit rainbows too huh? LOL. miss me with that shit.
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#26175 - 06/25/09 12:25 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: ]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
You seem to care enough to post angry rants \:\)
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#26180 - 06/25/09 01:11 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dan_Dread]
hellbent666
Unregistered



I care enough to help you see a very valid point. My insight will help you become a stronger person with a solid grasp on what it is you call yourself. Sometimes I think I should become a teacher. I'm a man that refuses to let potentially great minds, like yours, be wasted on ignorance. If I can teach you, then you are by default no longer ignorant. At this point in time you have a choice, I will be interested in what road you take.
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#26183 - 06/25/09 01:20 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: ]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
LOL!

If nothing else you are good for comedy. Maybe you aren't that bad.
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#26226 - 06/25/09 09:50 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Meq Offline
Banned
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861

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#26255 - 06/25/09 05:55 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: ]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
If I can teach you, then you are by default no longer ignorant. At this point in time you have a choice, I will be interested in what road you take.


See, the problem here is that actually YOU are the ignorant one who fails to understand probably the simplest concept...You either are or are not a Satanist, period. You can be Satanic, but if Satanism is not natural for you then you are not a Satanist.
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#26256 - 06/25/09 06:00 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: ta2zz]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
 Originally Posted By: ta2zz

I think their forum is free.

Not any more, I've been there recently CoS official forum charges for access to certain areas of their forum.
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#26267 - 06/25/09 07:18 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: TornadoCreator]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Sadly you read my reply and all you get out of it is I lack some information. So I guess you were just trying to help in some way. Or just trying to make yourself look more knowledgeable. Well thanks for trying I guess. Just stop trying so hard man. This would be probably be better off in a PM than here interrupting the flow of the thread.

Now to try to keep this on track, let me ask do you agree or disagree with anything I said? Do you not think that the type of ďeliteĒ members the CoS/LTTD forum tries to attract have no problem with spending a few dollars for access to a private area? After all to some elitism seems to end with being financially and romantically stable. Do you not think that the single-mindedness of one who holds Antonís words to be scripture is better suited to a forum of those who share and parrot these views?

Most of what LaVay said mirrors my own thoughts in many ways. I would have loved to have the chance to have met him. Respect him and his words yes, but glorify any other mans words as scripture or the be all end all of anything is just not my way.

~T~
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#26289 - 06/26/09 12:57 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Mike]
hellbent666
Unregistered



I don't really care for titles much anymore. It seems forums such as these are plagued by people that need something to call themselves, I classify myself as a jeramiahist. I don't let one single book define who I am. I was at one point a self professed Satanist. But I digress

As I said in my reply ta2zz, it is not a Platonic Form. It doesn't only have one interpretation. And I totally agree with you that the words of ole' Anton are not infallible like that group likes to claim they are. And I can concur with you on the other part of your reply saying that they are Parrots. They have no minds of their own and they ban anyone who's ideas do not conform. LaVey's philosophy might have been eye opening but that book was like, "No shit!". I had felt like that for years. So essentially he was selling us our own thoughts. Most con-men employed that exact kind of trick. It worked! LOL!

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#26290 - 06/26/09 02:11 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: ]
cuterebra23 Offline
lurker


Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 3
Loc: Pa
Biggest pet peeve of mine happens to be those who contradict themselves within there own words......
"I don't really care for titles much anymore. It seems forums such as these are plagued by people that need something to call themselves, I classify myself as a jeramiahist."

I do agree however that all the words of man are fallible.

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#26308 - 06/26/09 04:58 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: cuterebra23]
hellbent666
Unregistered



It's also amusing when people don't bother to ask the definition of said "title". I can't really call "Jeramiahism" a title because it is an amalgamation of various ideas. It is not a "form", so thus it cannot be a title.
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#26326 - 06/26/09 09:55 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: ]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
We don't need to call ourselves anything, and even if we felt the need to that's not what this is about. We're just trying to imply the simple statement that to be a Satanist you have to think like one. It's not that complicated.
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-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#26328 - 06/27/09 01:03 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Mike]
hellbent666
Unregistered



No sir you have to also ACT like one as well. Do you know what the difference between information and knowledge/wisdom are. Application. Satanism is a tool to apply to every aspect of your life, and to most of these supposed "real satanists" that are on another forum, y'all are poseurs. But honestly I have higher hopes for this bunch than them. I can't call you guys poseurs but thinking is one crucial step away from becoming something useful. Application Mein Herr is key.

You can read all the books you want but if you don't apply it it becomes as useless as reading fiction.

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#26329 - 06/27/09 01:09 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: ]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
But you surely have to realize that application on a forum is nothing but a declaration and as such, being a poseur can't really be proved or disproved. What evidence do we have for it besides the person's word?

D.

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#26331 - 06/27/09 01:25 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Diavolo]
hellbent666
Unregistered



100% true Diavolo! That is something I cannot argue. But we have to remember that we can be anyone online. We can be 6'4" 260lbs. of solid muscle when in fact we are short and fat. Most people blow themselves out of proportion online, to make us seem more interesting. It's also a level of social posturing at times. I couldn't tell you how many times short skinny men have commented on my avatar because it made them feel better. It's really amusing sometimes what will actually fall out of people's mouths when trying to make themselves seem important. Dating ads are great, they make me laugh.
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#26340 - 06/27/09 08:22 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Diavolo]
coelentrate Offline
member


Registered: 07/07/08
Posts: 164
Loc: Dundee, Scotland
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
But you surely have to realize that application on a forum is nothing but a declaration and as such, being a poseur can't really be proved or disproved. What evidence do we have for it besides the person's word?

D.


But I think you can get a pretty good guess. Online you can tell how people are by what they do. I think you can read people. If someone on this forum was a total loser but convinced everyone here they were a great satanist, they'd be an awesome con-man in real life, which itself is a satanic virtue.


hellbent: I like you.

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#26402 - 06/28/09 10:58 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: coelentrate]
hellbent666
Unregistered



thank you sir, the feeling is mutual. I'm off my high horse. Morgan speared me off of it. LOL!
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