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#49457 - 02/23/11 12:23 PM Re: Drug use indulgence or stupidity? [Re: LucyFur]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
"War on drugs" is the best thing that can happen to anyone involved in the drug trade. It sounds as sweet to them as "oil shortage" to an Arab.

Making them illegal or not doesn't differ much at the level of supply. The demand is still there and if there is demand, there will always be supply. As such, legal or not will not have any effect on kids trying them. To the contrary, often it being illegal has an even stronger lure.

When sex before marriage was a sin, weren't there plenty of sinners?

D.

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#49486 - 02/24/11 12:51 AM Re: Drug use indulgence or stupidity? [Re: Diavolo]
LucyFur Offline
member


Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 122
Loc: Bible Belt, USA
And lots more unwanted pregnancies too!

Yes, I think a lot of it is the mystique of it being illegal, much like alcohol and the drinking age.

My kids are allowed to drink small amounts of alcohol and they don't see what the big deal is. I grew up drinking wine with dinner and don't have a problem with alcohol. Those kids that overdose on alcohol on college campuses probably cant' handle it because it is new to them and they didn't understand it's effects and their lack of tolerance.
_________________________
I spit on your crapulous creeds.
Let all chaste women be utterly despised among you!


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#49509 - 02/24/11 05:59 AM Re: Drug use indulgence or stupidity? [Re: LucyFur]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1147
Loc: Amarillo, TX
I have to agree with LucyFur and Diavolo. I don't think there's anyone out there who's thinking, "Gee, I'd like to smoke some weed, if only it were legal!" Anyone who wants to mess with their head isn't going to be deterred by legality. According to Frontline, in Holland (where pot is legal), 20% of the population reports having tried it. In the US, it's 38%. As Diavolo pointed out, the illegality of the drug trade makes it lucrative; people who normally wouldn't get involved for drugs' sakes end up in it for the money.

I agree that smart parents are the key. I'm not a parent myself, but I had some of the best parents imaginable. They always taught me right, put up with me when I was a dumb teenager, protected me from myself just enough to protect my future while still learning from the natural consequences of my mistakes, and instilled me with a sense of personal responsibility. I hope I can follow their act.
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#49519 - 02/24/11 11:41 AM Re: Drug use indulgence or stupidity? [Re: daevid777]
natanielewsky Offline
lurker


Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 4
Loc: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
Drug use is for stupidity, for sure. Of course it starts as an indulgence, but as soon as you are depending on drugs you are no more free do decide about using or not. This is not indulgence enymore. Indulgence means you're free to choose your pleasures, not that you're a slave of them.
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#49523 - 02/24/11 12:11 PM Re: Drug use indulgence or stupidity? [Re: natanielewsky]
natanielewsky Offline
lurker


Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 4
Loc: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
Oooops! Anymore *
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#49524 - 02/24/11 12:15 PM Re: Drug use indulgence or stupidity? [Re: XiaoGui17]
natanielewsky Offline
lurker


Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 4
Loc: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil
Agreed! Making drugs illegal won't stop drug use. Besides, there is no law against stupitidy, is there?


Please refrain from one line posts, they are deeply frowned upon to say the least. Morgan


Edited by Morgan (02/24/11 10:34 PM)
Edit Reason: warning/information
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#49620 - 02/25/11 02:24 AM Re: Drug use indulgence or stupidity? [Re: LucyFur]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: LucyFur
The 'War on Drugs' is a joke, like the 'War on Cancer' and the 'War on Heart Disease'. It is an excuse to throw money into programs that don't work so the politicians can say they did something. And the irony of it is that it creates bureaucracies that depend on cancer, heart disease and drug use in order to feed it. The only winners are the people profiting off of it.


I completely agree that the war on drugs is utter bullshit. However, as much as I'd like to agree about the "war on cancer", I can't. See this is my drawing line. Cancer happens for several reason to include genetics, something that can not be controled. Addiction to drugs can be controled. There is a HUGE difference. At least with the money that does goes into fighting cancer the researchers try to find a cure. The War on Drugs isn't changing a damn thing when it comes to controling the amount of drugs that actually make it into the US. They make one bust while 5 more go right on by. not to mention, pull one dealer out and 5 more move in to make the cash.

 Originally Posted By: LucyFur
If all drugs were legal and easy to get, the crime rate would drop, not rise. people wouldn't have to rob, carjack, mug or steel from others because the product would be cheap. In fact, I think they should take all that money they spend on the idiocracy that is the 'War on Drugs' and buy drugs with it, distribute the drugs to whoever wants them and provide a place for them to take them. This would quickly eliminate the majority of the problem by weeding out the weak and stupid. Think of it as assisted suicide, or better - assisting people in accomplishing their will.


I think your missing one small piece to your puzzle though. See, with the current price of drugs, do you really think the government won't find a way to keep the price up there and take the biggest piece of the pie? If you really think they're going to make drugs legal and then let the price fall below current market value, you're not thinking this through all the way. Also, instead of robbing an empty house, now they'll have 2 to 3 times more motivation to rob the local store that carries the crap. Just because the drugs become legal doesn't mean crime rates will drop.

And fuck giving them a place to do the drugs. They all ready give them SSI for being addicts. Let them spend their SSI on their own places to stay.

 Originally Posted By: LucyFur
Nyte, your kids are smart because you are smart. You obviously take the time to communicate with and teach your children. My kids experimented too and they are all doing well because they had the good sense and self knowledge to know what and how much to try. And they told me all about it as well because we have a good relationship and they know I won't go off on them for being human. My eldest son, who experimented the most, is well on his way to making his first million before the age of 30. My 17 year old tried pot and didn't like it. He is bi-polar and smart enough to know he doesn't need to fuck up his head with unknown substances. My youngest is too busy loving life to give it a thought. Why? because mama and daddy don't fuck up their heads with religion and guilt. They are happy to be who they are.


Thank you LucyFur. We've both been fortunate enough to raise our children as we've seen fit, even through the good and the bad times. Not always is it like that though.

 Originally Posted By: LucyFur
Unfortunately, that is not how the rest of society is. We have coddled the weak and stupid for generations, not only allowing them to breed, but encouraging it by rewarding them. It's time to stop trying to protect people from themselves. It is time to stop taking responsibility for others and let them take responsibility for themselves.


I agree for the most part. However, I'm not ready to wonder if one of my son's friends are going to come to my house jacked up on crack just because it's "legal". At least right now, they know how I feel about it and don't ever come here wasted. Has he had friends come here and drink? Yeah, they're old enough and gave me their car keys. I don't care what people do behind their own closed doors. The problem is, they just don't stay there anymore, and the results may not be exactly as you picture them to be. If drugs, or cancer, or even heart disease were to affect one of yours would you think a bit differently?

I know, I'm playing devil's advocate right now. I have to, because, you see, my oldest son has Cystic Fibrosis. I'm not saying that to garner sympathy. I'm telling you so that you understand I've seen up close what the up side and the down side is to this topic, including the pharmacutical side. A teen on steriods for his lungs was enough to make me re-think some of my standings. I've also seen a young man (a close friend of my son) and another good friend of ours use pot to ease the pain from cancer. As much as I'd like to whole heartedly agree 100%, I don't know if I can.
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#49631 - 02/25/11 07:30 AM Re: Drug use indulgence or stupidity? [Re: Nyte]
XiaoGui17 Offline
active member


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 1147
Loc: Amarillo, TX
 Originally Posted By: Nyte
I'm not ready to wonder if one of my son's friends are going to come to my house jacked up on crack just because it's "legal".


That's another issue. People use, abuse, and deal legal drugs as well. I had an ex who dealt coke, and he dealt Xanax right alongside it. I saw a PSA that said most drug abuse is of legal drugs, and I don't doubt it. Many young people who wouldn't dream of touching crack I've seen are lulled into abusing pharmaceuticals, assuming that because doctors prescribe them (though not to them) they must be safe.
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#49693 - 02/25/11 02:21 PM Re: Drug use indulgence or stupidity? [Re: XiaoGui17]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: XiaoGui17
That's another issue. People use, abuse, and deal legal drugs as well. I had an ex who dealt coke, and he dealt Xanax right alongside it. I saw a PSA that said most drug abuse is of legal drugs, and I don't doubt it. Many young people who wouldn't dream of touching crack I've seen are lulled into abusing pharmaceuticals, assuming that because doctors prescribe them (though not to them) they must be safe.


I've seen it all too many times. The circle of drugs are large and wide including all too many additives. As much as I like the idea of making drugs legal for the very reason to "weed out the weak" and possibly bring down crime rates, I just don't see it happening quite like that. I don't think it'll change much at all, and perhaps could even increase it. Could we hope that they just kill off each other, if they're going to be that stupid? Yeah, that would be nice and before producing might not be such a bad thing either. However, that coin can be just as easily flipped and could very well be an even bigger drain on everyone that doesn't over-indulge (think: being productive citizens).

I don't know what the exact answer is, and I'm able to admit that completely. I can only maintain hope that if drugs like coke are legalized, the ball isn't dropped, so to speak.
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#49703 - 02/25/11 02:48 PM Re: Drug use indulgence or stupidity? [Re: Nyte]
LucyFur Offline
member


Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 122
Loc: Bible Belt, USA
 Originally Posted By: Nyte


I completely agree that the war on drugs is utter bullshit. However, as much as I'd like to agree about the "war on cancer", I can't. See this is my drawing line. Cancer happens for several reason to include genetics, something that can not be controled. Addiction to drugs can be controled. There is a HUGE difference. At least with the money that does goes into fighting cancer the researchers try to find a cure. The War on Drugs isn't changing a damn thing when it comes to controling the amount of drugs that actually make it into the US. They make one bust while 5 more go right on by. not to mention, pull one dealer out and 5 more move in to make the cash.


The war on cancer is not working because the American government and pharmaceutical cartel do not want it to work. Cancer is a multi-billion dollar business and growing. Cancer is an epidemic in this country and the causes are multifactorial. However, there are proven cures that don't involved spending vast amounts of money and being slashed, burned and poisoned by conventional means. The only problem is every time someone discovers an effective treatment they are either jailed, banished from the country or killed.

I have counseled cancer patients for 12 years. The ones who make it are the ones who adopt a healthy lifestyle, not the ones who have their immune systems destroyed by toxic chemicals and radiation. If anyone in my family were to get cancer, I would immediately put them on a plane for Germany or somewhere that offers effective alternative treatments because here in 'The Land of the Free' we are NOT FREE to make an informed choice about cancer treatment.

When in doubt, follow the money.



 Originally Posted By: Nyte

I think your missing one small piece to your puzzle though. See, with the current price of drugs, do you really think the government won't find a way to keep the price up there and take the biggest piece of the pie? If you really think they're going to make drugs legal and then let the price fall below current market value, you're not thinking this through all the way. Also, instead of robbing an empty house, now they'll have 2 to 3 times more motivation to rob the local store that carries the crap. Just because the drugs become legal doesn't mean crime rates will drop.


This is why I said the government should take some of the money they are wasting on the worthless drug war and use it to give or subsidize them for those who want them. As people die off, usage will decline. And this would take the money and the power away from the cartels, thus reducing crime. But you are right, this will never happen because the government already IS the biggest drug supplier. That is how they fund their black ops.

 Originally Posted By: Nyte



I agree for the most part. However, I'm not ready to wonder if one of my son's friends are going to come to my house jacked up on crack just because it's "legal". At least right now, they know how I feel about it and don't ever come here wasted. Has he had friends come here and drink? Yeah, they're old enough and gave me their car keys. I don't care what people do behind their own closed doors. The problem is, they just don't stay there anymore, and the results may not be exactly as you picture them to be. If drugs, or cancer, or even heart disease were to affect one of yours would you think a bit differently?



Do you wonder if your kid's friends are jacked up on coke now? You seem like an intelligent person, so you would likely be able to tell if some kid comes over fucked up on drugs. As a parent, of a second set of teens, not much gets past me and my kids know it. This is good as they respect me and themselves. They wouldn't even try to bring that element around me.

As a parent of a kid with bi-polar disorder, I completely understand where you are coming from. I have a love/hate relationship with the drug companies! Can't live with-em and can't live without-em. I try to balance the best of both allopathic and holistic worlds by educating myself and taking responsibility for my own and my family's health.
_________________________
I spit on your crapulous creeds.
Let all chaste women be utterly despised among you!


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#49710 - 02/25/11 02:55 PM Re: Drug use indulgence or stupidity? [Re: XiaoGui17]
LucyFur Offline
member


Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 122
Loc: Bible Belt, USA
 Originally Posted By: XiaoGui17


That's another issue. People use, abuse, and deal legal drugs as well. I had an ex who dealt coke, and he dealt Xanax right alongside it. I saw a PSA that said most drug abuse is of legal drugs, and I don't doubt it. Many young people who wouldn't dream of touching crack I've seen are lulled into abusing pharmaceuticals, assuming that because doctors prescribe them (though not to them) they must be safe.


So true! And they think those drugs are safer because they are legal. When in reality you can easily overdose on both prescription and even over the counter drugs such as Tylenol. In fact Tylenol is so dangerous I never allowed my kids to take it.


Edited by LucyFur (02/25/11 02:56 PM)
_________________________
I spit on your crapulous creeds.
Let all chaste women be utterly despised among you!


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#49749 - 02/25/11 04:51 PM Re: Drug use indulgence or stupidity? [Re: LucyFur]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: LucyFur
The war on cancer is not working because the American government and pharmaceutical cartel do not want it to work. Cancer is a multi-billion dollar business and growing. Cancer is an epidemic in this country and the causes are multifactorial. However, there are proven cures that don't involved spending vast amounts of money and being slashed, burned and poisoned by conventional means. The only problem is every time someone discovers an effective treatment they are either jailed, banished from the country or killed.

I have counseled cancer patients for 12 years. The ones who make it are the ones who adopt a healthy lifestyle, not the ones who have their immune systems destroyed by toxic chemicals and radiation. If anyone in my family were to get cancer, I would immediately put them on a plane for Germany or somewhere that offers effective alternative treatments because here in 'The Land of the Free' we are NOT FREE to make an informed choice about cancer treatment.

When in doubt, follow the money.


We've talked about this as a family, should my oldest ever need extensive treatment and I think we'd probably follow along the same lines as you. I've been encourged lately to hear about some pretty incredible treatments for CF, not only here in the US, but overseas the last few years. So we know there's things out there that could help extensively but I also know that it doesn't mean he might be cured. That's the reality of CF. They can take out the "bad" and possibly replace it with good, but it doesn't take away CF as a whole and additional problems can arise. Time will tell how far they can actually go with "curing" CF, and right now, we still have that time.

I've also watched those that have "cleaned up" their lifestyles (because of cancer) succumb to genetics too, though. The cancer went into remission and then came back with a vengence. It wasn't fun to watch, by a long shot.

 Originally Posted By: LucyFur
This is why I said the government should take some of the money they are wasting on the worthless drug war and use it to give or subsidize them for those who want them. As people die off, usage will decline. And this would take the money and the power away from the cartels, thus reducing crime. But you are right, this will never happen because the government already IS the biggest drug supplier. That is how they fund their black ops.


Thank you for going into further detail. It helped solidify your point of view better. I like it and there's not much to add. You're completely right about the government too.

 Originally Posted By: LucyFur
Do you wonder if your kid's friends are jacked up on coke now? You seem like an intelligent person, so you would likely be able to tell if some kid comes over fucked up on drugs. As a parent, of a second set of teens, not much gets past me and my kids know it. This is good as they respect me and themselves. They wouldn't even try to bring that element around me.

As a parent of a kid with bi-polar disorder, I completely understand where you are coming from. I have a love/hate relationship with the drug companies! Can't live with-em and can't live without-em. I try to balance the best of both allopathic and holistic worlds by educating myself and taking responsibility for my own and my family's health.


Here they all know how I feel about drugs, simply because of my youngest, and to date, they've all been respectful. I'm open with all of them about things like this, so I suspect that may have something to do with it too. It's good to be a strong parent.

The highlight is myself to a "T". I see what good it's done for my oldest, especially when he was first diagnosed. After almost 6 months of trying to figure out why he wasn't growing, staying up all night because he was starving no matter what food he was given, all of it. Then to find out what was wrong and the meds helping immensely, yet to see what I've seen on the "other" side. Yeah, it leaves that love/hate right where it's at.

Thanks for keeping my thoughts in check and even driving more thinking. It's good to have that from time to time. \:\)
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#49783 - 02/25/11 11:34 PM Re: Drug use indulgence or stupidity? [Re: Nyte]
LucyFur Offline
member


Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 122
Loc: Bible Belt, USA
I posted this in a private message but feel it may be beneficial here as well.

We went through hell for about 3 years because my son was ok one day then had a psychotic episode the next. He was 14 years old when it started. We took him to the family doc for tests and even though he was tested for mononucleosis it came back as a false negative so we had no idea why he was suddenly sleeping for 18 hours a day and extremely violent when he was awake. To make a long story short, we spent well over $20,000. in tests, psychiatrists (we found the only holistic psychiatrist in the Midwest but it cost us dearly), DNA tests, MRI (to check for a brain tumor), and nothing showed up until he got an upper GI to check for parasites and allergies. The gastroenterologist told us he had mono recently and that is when we realized it triggered the psychotic episodes (rare side effect of mono). But when the mono ran its course (one whole year) he was still depressed and we noticed he would get really hateful during every full moon. During this time the shrink had him on all kinds of nutritional supplements but my son lost patience and wouldn't give them a chance to work.

Eventually, I realized he was bi-polar and took him to the family doc and told him. At that point, my son was suicidal and I was staying up all night watching him to make sure he didn't kill himself. At that point we tried all the supplements but he was not getting any better so I gave in and let him try Abilify. It was like a miracle. He still gets a little edgy during the full moon but not suicidal. He missed his entire freshman year of high school because of the mono/bi-polar disorder but now he makes straight 'A's' and is looking forward to going to Purdue University. He is very bright, declaring himself a Satanist after reading the Satanic Bible and making a plan for his life.

I refused to give up on him, going into his room day and night to hold his hand and tell him not to give up on himself. During those times he would be curled up in a ball staring at the wall, unresponsive. It was scary as all hell to see him almost catatonic. Yet, when he was lucid he attacked us so many times during that first year that I had to take my youngest son and move out for a while for his safety.

I am sooooo glad those violent days are over! I HATE being dependent on drugs but in this case, it may have saved his life.


Nyte - Last year in my microbiology class I read about gene therapy for CF. You probably need to go to Europe or somewhere more progressive because the FDA takes so long to approve new treatments. What they do is insert the missing gene into some stem cells they remove from the patient, then they inject the altered stem cells so they will produce cells with the corrected gene. They have been doing this for Sickle cell patients too.
_________________________
I spit on your crapulous creeds.
Let all chaste women be utterly despised among you!


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#49789 - 02/26/11 12:36 AM Re: Drug use indulgence or stupidity? [Re: LucyFur]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
LucyFur, I know what you mean. The oldest was pretty drawn back for a while too during his teens, but part of that was because the ADHD meds didn't work any more (hormone changes tend to do that) and the steroids for his lungs only threw his normal hormones off the hook. He got really down for quite a while too, though not as bad as yours seems to have gone through. I was fortunate enough to find a doc close that got his mood swings under control with a few quick changes in foods (which was difficult to do because of his nutritional needs) and just one medication on a very low dose. I saw the signs long before they got way out of hand, simply because I had gone through it growing up myself, only surviving because I knew at graduation (all of 17) I could in fact get out of the situation that was completely draining me. Now, though, he thrives here at home in a calm family unit, paying rent, his own bills and now testing his hand at airbrushing for extra cash. For the first time in a long time, I see him becoming really proud of the things he creates, which is really excellent to watch. He's developing some mad airbrushing skills too! All without the depression meds which is huge.

As for the CF treatment you're talking about, we've talked to his doctor about it and from what the understanding is right now, that very treatment only works in pre-teen age children. The development came over from Sweden I believe and to date, they are trying to develop it far enough to be able to do that same treatment in adult CF patients but they're not having much luck. The closest they've got to that right now for adults is a gene replacement therapy that's an inhalant that's coming up in a final study this summer. He won't be able to participate in the study because his lungs are too good, at around 107% oxygen intake. He's participated in several studies over the years, primarily for pancreatic meds that are now on the market and he uses daily. He also participated in the nebulizer med study for Pulmozyme before it was released, which he's still on today. His primary issue is his pancreas/digestive system though. He's currently in with the best clinic in the US that a CF patient can be in, facilitating the most studies on the new meds from all over the world. We changed doctors when my son was about 10 because I was finding information on the web that his doctors then weren't telling us. It pissed me off and that's when we found the clinic he now goes to.

I keep a close watch on what's happening around the globe when it comes to gene therapies, because I know once one opens up with a definite cure (that will help both children and adults), it will blow the top off of the news for most genetic disorders. The studies are close, and it's only a matter of time. We’re fortunate to have that time because his health is good right now. If that were to change, I’d be traveling the globe getting him the help he would need.

I hate to say it, because this has been an interesting discussion, but now we need to let this thread get back to topic. My appreciation to the Mods and 600C members for letting us have this bit of thread drift.
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#49935 - 02/26/11 05:52 PM Re: Drug use indulgence or stupidity? [Re: daevid777]
mike616joaquin Offline
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Registered: 11/25/10
Posts: 8
Loc: London, England
What is your definition of a "drug"?? As far as compounds affecting you mentally or physically, investigating a toxicity report will I'm sure open the mind. I use LSD/MDMA/DMT and mushrooms, as and when I feel like it. Has it "harmed" me? I don't think so, have I gained a further insight into reality and other subjects? In my opinion, yes. As Morgan said, these compounds are tools. If your pro-drug that's fine, if you think it's pointless indulgence, fine.

I don't see what we can gain by going round in circles with this.

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