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#26003 - 06/22/09 10:55 PM Satanism and Dogma.
Dan_Dread Offline
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Time and time again I hear it demonized and see it vilified: dogma

The Satanic Bible clearly states 'Man needs ritual and dogma' and it is this very need for dogma that is Satisfied by the Satanic religion.
Yet so many that would attempt to shoehorn themselves into the label of Satanist just don't seem to get it. They scoff at any attempt to solidify a worldview as they cry out 'closed minded!'

Satanism is a description. A description of a certain type of person and a certain set of views, or one rather tangible world view. We know each other almost immediately based on these traits, and that's just that. Satanism and Satanist are words that mean something.

When a word ceases to have definition it degenerates into no more than a sound, no better than a primal grunt. This primal grunt is what many would turn Satanism into. A meaningless nothing. It has gotten so bad that there exists those, even among our very ranks, that would cry foul when any sort of borders or qualifications are placed on what it means to BE a Satanist.

Well guess what kiddies? Satanism is NOT anything goes. It is not a feel good religion that you can shape and mold to fit you. You either fit the suit, or you do not. It is what it is. If it doesn't fit you, or if you feel the need to change it or adapt it to fit yourself, you are engaging in self deception. You aren't the real deal.
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#26007 - 06/22/09 11:29 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dan_Dread]
TornadoCreator Offline
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I find myself agreeing with you for the most part however considering that the entire point behind Satanism is self worship and discovering and perfecting your identity. This alone makes Satanism a very different experience for everyone but there are values that are very definitely set that should be present in all Satanists, otherwise they're not really Satanists, they're just people who have a similar philosophy and share some ideals with Satanists.
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#26014 - 06/23/09 01:44 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Meq Offline
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That man NEEDS dogma was one of Anton LaVey's opinions, not an axiomatic fact.

And yet The Satanic Bible also says:
 Originally Posted By: The Satanic Bible
No hoary falsehood shall be a truth to me; no stifling dogma shall encramp my pen!

And also:
 Originally Posted By: The Satanic Bible
No moral dogma must be taken for grantedóno standard of measurement deified. There is nothing inherently sacred about moral codes. Like the wooden idols of long ago, they are the work of human hands, and what man has made, man can destroy!

(Which is quite contrary to the notion that: "That X is wrong is absolutely axiomatic and not up for debate. Anyone that doesn't agree is a piece of shit in my eyes. End of story.")


Several other quotes from LaVey however put his concept of 'dogma' in its place:
 Originally Posted By: The Satanic Bible
The one need that psychiatry cannot fill is manís inherent need for emotionalizing through dogma. Man needs ceremony and ritual, fantasy and enchantment. Psychiatry, despite all the good it has done, has robbed man of wonder and fantasy which religion, in the past, has provided.
Satanism, realizing the current needs of man, fills the large grey void between religion and psychiatry. The Satanic philosophy combines the fundamentals of psychology and good, honest emotionalizing, or dogma. It provides man with his much needed fantasy.

So dogma to a Satanist is still fantasy, not fact, something more at home in the psychodramatic ritual chamber than on a philosophical discussion board.
Anton LaVey's discussion of the Satanic Sin of self-deceit bears this out:

 Originally Posted By: Anton Szandor LaVey
The only time self-deceit should be entered into is when itís fun, and with awareness. But then, itís not self-deceit!

The difference between a Satanic dogmatist, one would hope at least, is that the Satanist is aware that he is deceiving himself, unlike other religionists who take their dogma to be axiomatic fact.

At least, one would hope.

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#26024 - 06/23/09 06:11 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Meq Offline
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Just to add, that if the reasons one gives for buying into a dogma are mostly:
1) "I read it in a book", and
2) "It feels right",
with no further questions or justifications needed -
then such a stance is at bottom no different to faith...

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#26028 - 06/23/09 07:49 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Meq]
Dan_Dread Offline
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1:Ritual and dogma aren't the same thing. I'm not sure how you managed to conclude that they are.

2:There is no explaining Satanism to non Satanists. You're born with it or you are not. You are so far off the mark here it's hard to even tell what you are aiming at. I'll break it down point by point for those that don't already find this obvious when I am not rushing to get to work.

More to come!
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#26030 - 06/23/09 08:01 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Dimitri Offline
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 Quote:
Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, ideology or any kind of organization: it is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted or diverged from.


The point (IMO) Lavey is taking about the "need for dogma" is just to have a grip on something authorative. When reading the whole passage I see that a dogma is neccesary but that you shouldn't forget the change of mind when confronted with something new and more rational.
The dogma referred to in Satanism is just the points of view a Satanist has achieved by stating his arguments and ideas with common-sense back-up from other works (or evidences) which are hard/impossible to discredit.

As Meq quoted from the SB:
 Originally Posted By: Satanic Bible
]No hoary falsehood shall be a truth to me; no stifling dogma shall encramp my pen!


 Originally Posted By: Satanic Bible

No moral dogma must be taken for grantedóno standard of measurement deified. There is nothing inherently sacred about moral codes. Like the wooden idols of long ago, they are the work of human hands, and what man has made, man can destroy!

This implies that Satanists have a certain "Dogma" but are willingly to change/modify when needed to.


Edited by Dimitri (06/23/09 08:04 AM)
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#26032 - 06/23/09 08:08 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Meq]
TornadoCreator Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Meq
The difference between a Satanic dogmatist, one would hope at least, is that the Satanist is aware that he is deceiving himself, unlike other religionists who take their dogma to be axiomatic fact.

At least, one would hope.


I would say that the difference from where I'm standing anyway, is that the Satanist will accept the "dogma" without doing it blindly. I'm prepared to drop any part of Satanism should it be shown to me that it's unreasonable or inaccurate. If it's one or two minor points, I will still call myself Satanist. If it's something major, that's when I would say I'm no longer a Satanist. It's not true Dogma because unlike other religions you're welcome to challenge the ideals, it's just doing so means the label no longer applies to you.
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#26034 - 06/23/09 08:36 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Meq Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
1:Ritual and dogma aren't the same thing. I'm not sure how you managed to conclude that they are.

I never said ritual and dogma are the same thing.
I said dogma belongs in the ritual chamber, and not as an axiomatic point of debate.

 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
There is no explaining Satanism to non Satanists. You're born with it or you are not... I'll break it down point by point for those that don't already find this obvious when I am not rushing to get to work.

Then wouldn't it be a waste of time to even try explaining it to us poor 'non-Satanists'? ;\)

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#26035 - 06/23/09 09:22 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Meq Offline
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Question:
Would you describe your stance on Satanism as:

"To those who understand, no explanation is necessary; to those who don't, none is possible"?

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#26042 - 06/23/09 11:29 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Meq]
TornadoCreator Offline
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"To those who understand, no explanation is necessary; to those who don't, none is possible"?

Sounds like a licence to be as elitist as you want. Don't need to justify anything, just make sure you agree with and grovel with the person above and treat everyone below you like shit because they haven't reached your level of enlightenment. Even the Jedi ain't that bad.
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#26044 - 06/23/09 11:48 AM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: TornadoCreator]
Meq Offline
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That's an example of what Ayn Rand called a neo-mystical epistemology.
And not in a complimentary way either.

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#26050 - 06/23/09 03:36 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Meq]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Ok here it is. First, on Satanic Dogma. Dogma in this context can be defined as "A principle or belief or a group of them". That is to say, dogma is a recorded belief set or system of principles.

It doesn't really sound like you know what dogma means when you say it is fantasy or belongs in the ritual chamber. Dogma has nothing to do with ritual and everything to do with core beliefs and principles, which apply not to any ritual chamber but to every day conduct, ie real life.

 Quote:

(Which is quite contrary to the notion that: "That X is wrong is absolutely axiomatic and not up for debate. Anyone that doesn't agree is a piece of shit in my eyes. End of story.")


You seem to see no distinction between unexamined, ie faith based conclusions and conclusions reached through due reasonable course. The proposition in question here, from last nights chat, is 'child molestation'. Yes, I will say that child molestation is wrong, axiomatically, and anyone who disagrees IS a piece of shit. If you are afraid of ever drawing any conclusions or being passionate about anything you must be one hell of a boring mofo.


 Quote:

Just to add, that if the reasons one gives for buying into a dogma are mostly:
1) "I read it in a book", and
2) "It feels right",
with no further questions or justifications needed -
then such a stance is at bottom no different to faith...

As you posted this to me I can only assume you are trying to assign me this position, which I will not accept. I do not accept any propositions on faith.

Having faith is accepting an unexamined or unexaminable premise as true. To someone with the core nature of a Satanist, Satanic dogma simply describes (a) position(s) held universally by those that can accurately be described as Satanists. I have thoroughly examined Satanism, picked away at it with an axe, been the only Satanist on many forums such as this, (opening my beliefs and opinions on the matter to a red hot trial by fire) and found the principles to be in accord with who I am, on a very base and bedrock level. Over 16 years of my life I have used this label to describe myself, and believe you me would drop it in a heartbeat were I to suddenly discover it didn't fit. (which seems pretty unlikely at this point)

Satanism is a description of something that is. You either get it right away, or never.
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#26053 - 06/23/09 04:15 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dan_Dread]
TornadoCreator Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread

 Quote:

(Which is quite contrary to the notion that: "That X is wrong is absolutely axiomatic and not up for debate. Anyone that doesn't agree is a piece of shit in my eyes. End of story.")


You seem to see no distinction between unexamined, ie faith based conclusions and conclusions reached through due reasonable course. The proposition in question here, from last nights chat, is 'child molestation'. Yes, I will say that child molestation is wrong, axiomatically, and anyone who disagrees IS a piece of shit. If you are afraid of ever drawing any conclusions or being passionate about anything you must be one hell of a boring mofo.


So... to dumb this down, just so you can see how stupid this is.

"Child molestation is wrong because it's wrong to molest children" - this is your claim.

This is called circular logic or begging the question. Here's a different example of circular logic.

"The Bible is the inspired word of God because it says so in The Bible" - we're all familiar with this bullshit right.

Whether child molestation is wrong or not your argument is nothing but a logical fallacy followed by an appeal to force, by claiming anyone who disagrees should die horribly.

 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
 Quote:

Just to add, that if the reasons one gives for buying into a dogma are mostly:
1) "I read it in a book", and
2) "It feels right",
with no further questions or justifications needed -
then such a stance is at bottom no different to faith...

As you posted this to me I can only assume you are trying to assign me this position, which I will not accept. I do not accept any propositions on faith.

Having faith is accepting an unexamined or unexaminable premise as true. To someone with the core nature of a Satanist, Satanic dogma simply describes (a) position(s) held universally by those that can accurately be described as Satanists. I have thoroughly examined Satanism, picked away at it with an axe, been the only Satanist on many forums such as this, (opening my beliefs and opinions on the matter to a red hot trial by fire) and found the principles to be in accord with who I am, on a very base and bedrock level. Over 16 years of my life I have used this label to describe myself, and believe you me would drop it in a heartbeat were I to suddenly discover it didn't fit. (which seems pretty unlikely at this point)

Satanism is a description of something that is. You either get it right away, or never.

This is just elitist bullshit. You're claiming you are entitled to use the label Satanist and other people can't, that's just an adult way of saying "I'm better than you are". It's almost as though this falls under the heading of another logical fallacy, the No True Scotsman Fallacy.

You're really bad at this debating lark aren't you Dan.
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#26054 - 06/23/09 04:25 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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 Quote:
Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, ideology or any kind of organization: it is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted or diverged from. The term derives from Greek δόγμα "that which seems to one, opinion or belief" and that from δοκέω (dokeo), "to think, to suppose, to imagine". The plural is either dogmas or dogmata , from Greek δόγματα.

At the core of the dogma concept is absolutism, infallibility, irrefutability, unquestioned acceptance (among adherents) and anti-skepticism. These concepts typically invoke criticism from moderate and modulated conceptual approaches, and thus "dogma" is often colloquially used to indicate a doctrine which has the problem of claiming absolute truth, when other concepts may be superior.


Try to fit this into Satanism and you simultaneously fit yourself out.

D.

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#26055 - 06/23/09 04:38 PM Re: Satanism and Dogma. [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Why is it as soon as 'child molesting' is mentioned, anywhere, TC comes in guns blazing?

I'm really noticing a disturbing trend here.

 Quote:

So... to dumb this down, just so you can see how stupid this is.

"Child molestation is wrong because it's wrong to molest children" - this is your claim.

In your hurried huff to defend everything that is kiddy diddling you overlooked one rather important point, tc. I did not make that claim at all. You are either deliberately lying or you aren't so good at this reading 'lark'. There are multiple reasons why I have concluded what I have about child molestation, and none of them are 'because it's wrong to molest children'.

 Quote:

his is just elitist bullshit. You're claiming you are entitled to use the label Satanist and other people can't, that's just an adult way of saying "I'm better than you are".

I am saying Satanism has already been defined, and if you don't like it, tough beans. If you want to believe in unicorns and 3 legged devils and claim that is the way of true Satanism, go right ahead. Just don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

You do seem the type to prefer egalitarianism over elitism, though. Fat unemployed (pedophile?) damaged goods that you are, why wouldn't you?
;\)
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