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#26239 - 06/25/09 03:33 PM French Ban on Burka
TornadoCreator Offline
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Links - Discussion to follow.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8113778.stm
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/dad4289c-5cfe-11de-9d42-00144feabdc0.html
http://apostate.wordpress.com/2009/06/24/french-ban-on-the-burka/
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1905554,00.html?xid=rss-world

Quite frankly I think the French have made a statement that has needed to be made for years with this. It's important that we address the growing problem of Islam in Europe and start to defend ourselves from what is an attack on our way of life. Islam is spreading fast and due to liberal ideas and political correction it's not allowed to be challenged when other religions are. As Muslims riot at the drop of a hat, turban or veil whichever, it's even harder for countries to be critical of Islam. The fact that France has made these statements against the Burka and are not afraid to act against archaic religions is, I feel, a sign of growth within Europe.
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#26247 - 06/25/09 04:57 PM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: TornadoCreator]
Fist Moderator Offline
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At the moment, the only people fighting the Islamic threat in the UK is the BNP. Yet, you are not a BNP supporter. Why?
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#26281 - 06/25/09 09:22 PM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: Fist]
TornadoCreator Offline
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Because the BNP are homophobic, fundie christians, and nazi's. I'm libertarian, support gay rights, opposed to religion and not in the slightest bit racist.

The logical choice is UKIP, they are against the immigration policies, they are against UK being part of the European Union and it's Open Door policies and they are not racist, homophobic or fundies...
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#26335 - 06/27/09 04:06 AM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: TornadoCreator]
Demonic Moroni Offline
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I'm very much uneasy on the banning of anything, especially when it comes to matters of free speech. (I am against the banning of swastikas in Germany, for instance.)

Nevertheless, I understand what France is trying to do, and I would absolutely hate to see it be made illegal to criticize Islam in a future Europe.

I am an American, so I can't say much about European affairs, but I guess the only thing I can say is tread softly.
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#26341 - 06/27/09 09:10 AM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: TornadoCreator]
Fist Moderator Offline
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I don't know anything about the UKIP but they seem like conservative (small L) libertarians. Our Libertarian Party in the US is for open borders which most Americans are against. Most people, regardless of party, hold libertarian sympathies - especially when the law applies to them. The actual votes are influenced out of concern over what they think the other guy will do.

I don't know if the UKIP has any MPs but the BNP does.

I am not sure how many BNP members are actually Xtians. It seems as if just like the NAZI party the BNP is using this as a prop.

I don't know about the UK, but there no one in the US are denied ANY rights because they are homosexual. 'Gay Rights' really means that they want access to certain govt entitlements. It has nothing to do with civil rights. It is all about getting extra govt cheese.
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#26349 - 06/27/09 02:21 PM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: TornadoCreator]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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 Quote:
The rich legacy of tradition, legend, myth and very real wealth of landscape and man-made structures is one of our islandís richest treasures. The men and women of the British National Party are motivated by love and admiration of the outpouring of culture, art, literature and the pattern of living through the ages that has left its mark on our very landscape. We value the folkways and customs which have been passed down through countless generations. We enthuse with pride at the marvels of architecture and engineering that have been completed on these islands since the construction of the great megaliths 7,000 years ago.


Christian I think not.

D.

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#26365 - 06/27/09 09:31 PM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: Fist]
TornadoCreator Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Fist
I don't know anything about the UKIP but they seem like conservative (small L) libertarians. Our Libertarian Party in the US is for open borders which most Americans are against. Most people, regardless of party, hold libertarian sympathies - especially when the law applies to them. The actual votes are influenced out of concern over what they think the other guy will do.

UKIP are a relatively new party, only being around since the early 90's, they are however the 5th most popular party in Britain at the moment. They are more centrist than conservative from what I know of them and very much libertarian with the exception of their immigration policies.

 Originally Posted By: Fist
I don't know if the UKIP has any MPs but the BNP does.

Not at the moment, but neither does BNP. Our MP's are still in session from when we had Tony Blair in power. BNP does have 2 MEP's (Members of European Parliament) at the moment though, as Britain has a set number of seats in the EU parliament as well as it's own. UKIP doesn't have any as far as I know, and regularly came 3rd in each constituency. In the General Election, where we elect our MP's in 2011-12 (TBA) for British Parliament I expect to see a conservative majority, labour loosing a lot of seats, liberal democrats possibly snatching second place instead of labour (unlikely, it's still two party politics, labour or conservative here), and UKIP, BNP, Plaid Cymru, Scottish Nationals, Sinn Fein, Ulster and Green all potentially taking home a few seats. There's 646 seats to get, first party to 324 names their leader Prime Minister, if no-one gains enough it's whoever has majority or a hung parliament if no-one has a clear majority.

 Originally Posted By: Fist
I am not sure how many BNP members are actually Xtians. It seems as if just like the NAZI party the BNP is using this as a prop.

Possible, but I've spoken to a fair few, they seem quite Christian to me.

 Originally Posted By: Fist
I don't know about the UK, but there no one in the US are denied ANY rights because they are homosexual.

Marriage...

 Originally Posted By: Fist
'Gay Rights' really means that they want access to certain govt entitlements. It has nothing to do with civil rights. It is all about getting extra govt cheese.

No it's to do with gay marriage, still illegal... sounds like someone's being denied their civil rights there.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
 Quote:
The rich legacy of tradition, legend, myth and very real wealth of landscape and man-made structures is one of our islandís richest treasures. The men and women of the British National Party are motivated by love and admiration of the outpouring of culture, art, literature and the pattern of living through the ages that has left its mark on our very landscape. We value the folkways and customs which have been passed down through countless generations. We enthuse with pride at the marvels of architecture and engineering that have been completed on these islands since the construction of the great megaliths 7,000 years ago.


Christian I think not.

D.


I don't see how appreciating our history makes them not Christian... remember, this country has been officially Christian in one form or another for about ooooh 2000 years, when the Romans took over.


Edited by TornadoCreator (06/27/09 09:32 PM)
Edit Reason: correction
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#26369 - 06/28/09 02:20 AM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: TornadoCreator]
Diavolo Offline
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I'm not going to go into detail upon this, -assuming you at least know your own history- but when Britain was conquered by the Romans, the Romans didn't even know Christianity. Most of the European christianisation has been done after the first millennium, so the idea that the country is christian for 2000 years is somewhat ridiculous.

D.

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#26409 - 06/29/09 01:12 AM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: TornadoCreator]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
 Originally Posted By: Fist
I don't know about the UK, but there no one in the US are denied ANY rights because they are homosexual.


Marriage...


Marriage isn't a "right" at least, not a right as is described by the Bill of Rights. Not trying to turn this into a Gay Marriage thread, nor am I against gay people getting married. Marriage is just not something I would consider a right, or a privilege for that matter.
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#26821 - 07/05/09 03:48 AM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: Fist]
Impius Offline
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Registered: 09/08/08
Posts: 60
Loc: Lille, France
 Originally Posted By: Fist
At the moment, the only people fighting the Islamic threat in the UK is the BNP. Yet, you are not a BNP supporter. Why?


Thanks for this. Totally on-topic. Congratz.

The decision of banning the burka is one of the rare moments I can be proud of my country. I really care about the fact France claims to be a non-religious state, a symbol of the Muslims' cultural women enslaving shouldn't be allowed in. Believe in whatever you want, bring your culture (cosmopolitanism rules), but leave that kind of things behind (at least keep them for you and your private life). That's my opinion and I silently wish it was shared by more of my french mates.
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#26829 - 07/05/09 11:27 AM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
TornadoCreator Offline
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 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
 Originally Posted By: Fist
I don't know about the UK, but there no one in the US are denied ANY rights because they are homosexual.


Marriage...


Marriage isn't a "right" at least, not a right as is described by the Bill of Rights. Not trying to turn this into a Gay Marriage thread, nor am I against gay people getting married. Marriage is just not something I would consider a right, or a privilege for that matter.


It's something one group can do, but another group cannot, for the sole reason that the first group said so. If that's not segregation and the abuse of civil liberty I don't know what is. The Bill Of Rights does not have any say on what is or is not a right, it's a document that is far from infallible and most certainly out of date, written when religion was expected and homosexuality misunderstood.

If it's not a right, nor is it a privilege, what the hell is it? By all social standards everyone has the right to do whatever they want so long as it doesn't hurt someone or infringe on the rights of others, this is the basis behind emancipation one of the basic principals of modern society. By that model, marriage, is a right that everyone has, and gay marriage is no different than straight marriage.

besides, as you said this isn't a gay marriage topic, but Fist is quite simply wrong and he knows it. To claim gays are treated equally in the US when they can't even have a fucking funeral without a protest outside with 6 year olds holding signs saying "God Hates Fags" is a bare faced lie. They can't marry, they can't adopt, they can't be made next of kin for the partners thus they can't visit each other in hospital or claim any family based tax cuts or benefits. They can't even get a job in many schools or public buildings in many states. Gays are persecuted more than any other group, and Fist is either extremely naive on this subject or rather bigoted.
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#26830 - 07/05/09 11:34 AM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: Diavolo]
TornadoCreator Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I'm not going to go into detail upon this, -assuming you at least know your own history- but when Britain was conquered by the Romans, the Romans didn't even know Christianity. Most of the European christianisation has been done after the first millennium, so the idea that the country is christian for 2000 years is somewhat ridiculous.

D.


Actually, the oldest Christian Church in the UK still standing was built in 654AD, it's St Peter's Chapel, Bradwell-on-Sea, and it wasn't the first Church to be built either. England has been officially Christian since Rome converted because England was part of the Roman Empire at the time. From what I've looked up, Christianity became the official religion in 306AD, that means it's been the official religion for 1703 years, that's rather close to 2000 really, especially as it would have been around unofficially longer than that, considering the number was a rough throw away statement not a historical estimate I think it was accurate enough.
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#26831 - 07/05/09 11:45 AM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: TornadoCreator]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
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 Quote:
To claim gays are treated equally in the US when they can't even have a fucking funeral without a protest outside with 6 year olds holding signs saying "God Hates Fags" is a bare faced lie. They can't marry, they can't adopt, they can't be made next of kin for the partners thus they can't visit each other in hospital or claim any family based tax cuts or benefits. They can't even get a job in many schools or public buildings in many states. Gays are persecuted more than any other group, and Fist is either extremely naive on this subject or rather bigoted.

There is a difference between personal feelings and official laws.
Officially they may get married and officially they may have kids, but personal feelings get in the way as soon as confronted with gays. The main reason for them being held back is just the human feelings and the religion inspired bullshit most people value. Nothing more nothing less.

Official everything is possible, but as soon as someone finds out, the emotions and religious ideas start to make their appearance.

Back on topic:
Good thing they had a ban on the Burka, but then again: what with freedom of speech everyone values that much?
Also I don't see Islam as a danger/problem. Only as yet another irritating noise which needs to be lessened to avoid going mental. I can only cheer to laws and actions whom restrict any (all) religions and their unnatural and/or unhuman behaviour and codes.


Edited by Dimitri (07/05/09 11:52 AM)
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#26832 - 07/05/09 11:52 AM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: TornadoCreator]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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 Quote:
Christianisation of Anglo-Saxon England began around 600 AD, influenced by Celtic Christianity from the northwest and by the Roman Catholic Church from the southeast. Augustine, the first Archbishop of Canterbury, took office in 597. In 601, he baptised the first Christian Anglo-Saxon king, Aethelbert of Kent. The last pagan Anglo-Saxon king, Penda of Mercia, died in 655.The last pagan Jutish king, Arwald of the Isle of Wight was killed in 686. The Anglo-Saxon mission on the continent took off in the 8th century, leading to the Christianisation of practically all of the Frankish Empire by 800.


D.

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#26837 - 07/05/09 12:54 PM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: Dimitri]
TornadoCreator Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
 Quote:
Christianisation of Anglo-Saxon England began around 600 AD, influenced by Celtic Christianity from the northwest and by the Roman Catholic Church from the southeast. Augustine, the first Archbishop of Canterbury, took office in 597. In 601, he baptised the first Christian Anglo-Saxon king, Aethelbert of Kent. The last pagan Anglo-Saxon king, Penda of Mercia, died in 655.The last pagan Jutish king, Arwald of the Isle of Wight was killed in 686. The Anglo-Saxon mission on the continent took off in the 8th century, leading to the Christianisation of practically all of the Frankish Empire by 800.


D.

A pointless argument anyway, it doesn't matter how long the religion was present, the point is it has been a major part of UK culture for a significant


 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Quote:
To claim gays are treated equally in the US when they can't even have a fucking funeral without a protest outside with 6 year olds holding signs saying "God Hates Fags" is a bare faced lie. They can't marry, they can't adopt, they can't be made next of kin for the partners thus they can't visit each other in hospital or claim any family based tax cuts or benefits. They can't even get a job in many schools or public buildings in many states. Gays are persecuted more than any other group, and Fist is either extremely naive on this subject or rather bigoted.

There is a difference between personal feelings and official laws.
Officially they may get married

No they can't, not in the US
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
and officially they may have kids,

They can't legally adopt in some states either
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
but personal feelings get in the way as soon as confronted with gays. The main reason for them being held back is just the human feelings and the religion inspired bullshit most people value. Nothing more nothing less.

Official everything is possible, but as soon as someone finds out, the emotions and religious ideas start to make their appearance.

Yes, but I'm not saying they physically can't get married, I'm saying it won't be recognised by the state, and they cannot do it legally.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Back on topic:
Good thing they had a ban on the Burka, but then again: what with freedom of speech everyone values that much?
Also I don't see Islam as a danger/problem. Only as yet another irritating noise which needs to be lessened to avoid going mental. I can only cheer to laws and actions whom restrict any (all) religions and their unnatural and/or unhuman behaviour and codes.

If you live anywhere in Europe, more specifically Netherlands, France, Denmark, UK or Germany where the problem of Islam is becoming unmanageable you can see why people want to ban the burka. Sure, I support free speech, but the burka is practically bad as well, security cameras and such need to be able to see peoples faces.
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