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#26838 - 07/05/09 01:13 PM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: Dimitri]
Impius Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/08
Posts: 60
Loc: Lille, France
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Good thing they had a ban on the Burka, but then again: what with freedom of speech everyone values that much?
Also I don't see Islam as a danger/problem. Only as yet another irritating noise which needs to be lessened to avoid going mental. I can only cheer to laws and actions whom restrict any (all) religions and their unnatural and/or unhuman behaviour and codes.


The problem (IMHO) about the burka, and even lighter islamic veils, is that it represents the inferiority of women in Muslim's religion and culture. It's not just a symbol, it physically hides their faces. They can wear whatever they want in private, but in public and non-religious places, they have to conform to our laws and culture. That's the idea.

I'm being really attentive to Islam's progression in Europe (in France especially, because it's where I live ^^). They're getting more and more things... porkless food at school cafeteria, reserved hours at swimming pools when non-Muslims are not allowed in (not everywhere, but in some swimming pools it does happen, I still cannot believe it !), I know they've also claimed they wanted their own holidays.

Geez, when you come to live in a country, you have to adapt to it, and not the contrary ! If you don't want to eat pork, eat vegetables alone, you'll eat meat by night at home ! If you don't want non-Muslims to see your wife in swimsuit, buy your own pool ! And if you still want to show everyone you support the enslavement of women, you're not welcome !

(Of course, this all is my own and private opinion and I don't mean to be offensive to anyone ;\) )
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In the end everyone dies...

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#26839 - 07/05/09 02:24 PM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: TornadoCreator]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
If that's not segregation and the abuse of civil liberty I don't know what is.


Then you obviously don't know what they are.

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
The Bill Of Rights does not have any say on what is or is not a right


Actually, yes it does. That happens to be why it was written.


 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
If it's not a right, nor is it a privilege, what the hell is it?


To put it simply - Marriage is just a legal contract, nothing more than a piece of paper.

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
marriage, is a right that everyone has, and gay marriage is no different than straight marriage.


Right. Notice how I never said there is a difference?

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
To claim gays are treated equally in the US when they can't even have a fucking funeral without a protest outside with 6 year olds holding signs saying "God Hates Fags" is a bare faced lie.


More idiocy from you. The protests you are speaking of, conducted by The Westboro Baptist Church, are done at the funerals of dead soldiers. Not the funerals of gay people.

The reason they protest is because, according to them, US soldiers are being killed because God is angry at America for being "accepting of the Homosexual lifestyle".

While it is possible one or more of the soldiers who had their funeral protested was gay, they weren't open about it. At least not to the military. Since you obviously know nothing about America I will let you know that the policy of "Don't ask don't tell" means that gays can't be open about their sexuality and serve in the military.

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
They can't marry, they can't adopt


They can in some places.

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
they can't be made next of kin for the partners thus they can't visit each other in hospital


My step-dad's brother is gay. He was just in the hospital, and no one tried to prevent his partner from visiting him. Your move, Sherlock.

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
They can't even get a job in many schools or public buildings in many states. Gays are persecuted more than any other group, and Fist is either extremely naive on this subject or rather bigoted.


Again, you don't know what you are talking about. The mayor of Portland, Sam Adams, is openly gay. A few teachers at my highschool were openly gay. I have worked with gay people at several of my jobs. Does it hurt being that stupid? I sure hope so.

On a seperate note: When one compares the posts that Fist makes, to the ones that you make, it is abundantly clear you have no right to attack his intelligence.
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No gods. No masters.

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#26840 - 07/05/09 02:51 PM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: Impius]
Maxim D Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/21/09
Posts: 20
Loc: Portland, Oregon, United State...
 Originally Posted By: Impius
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Good thing they had a ban on the Burka, but then again: what with freedom of speech everyone values that much?
Also I don't see Islam as a danger/problem. Only as yet another irritating noise which needs to be lessened to avoid going mental. I can only cheer to laws and actions whom restrict any (all) religions and their unnatural and/or unhuman behaviour and codes.


The problem (IMHO) about the burka, and even lighter islamic veils, is that it represents the inferiority of women in Muslim's religion and culture. It's not just a symbol, it physically hides their faces. They can wear whatever they want in private, but in public and non-religious places, they have to conform to our laws and culture. That's the idea.


That is a great success for France. I just wish that America would do something about it. Religious tolerance has gone a little too far, and western culture should not be infected by their backwards ways. I'm sick of seeing muslims around. There have been too many great strides forwards, in the sense of women's rights, to tolerate that kind of behavior. It reminds me of when the illegal aliens were protesting or amnesty, and waving the mexican flag (and their other respective flags), but not the american flag?! Seeing them (the muslims) with their customs in western lands is a huge spit in the face to everything we enjoy, and what they came to western lands to enjoy. No, we don't need to accommodate them.
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The leaders of institutionalized religion should be institutionalized....

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#26841 - 07/05/09 05:29 PM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
If that's not segregation and the abuse of civil liberty I don't know what is.

Then you obviously don't know what they are.

That's right, take my quote but don't bother to quote what I'm referencing otherwise people will be able to see for themselves that you're twisting words to your own liking.

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
The Bill Of Rights does not have any say on what is or is not a right

Actually, yes it does. That happens to be why it was written.

Good job on the quote mine there, you're becoming quite the pathetic forum troll. I actually justified this statement but that can't have been important, oh no. Don't worry though, the average member of the 600 Club is intelligent and has a long enough attention span to remember my points or sense of curiosity strong enough to make them look back one page.

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
If it's not a right, nor is it a privilege, what the hell is it?

To put it simply - Marriage is just a legal contract, nothing more than a piece of paper.

That you have a RIGHT to obtain with any person of your choosing, so it's a fucking right then isn't it you damn fool.

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
marriage, is a right that everyone has, and gay marriage is no different than straight marriage.

Right. Notice how I never said there is a difference?

No, but the law does, and as the law dictates if people are having their rights violated and not you, it makes more sense if I'm arguing against them doesn't it.

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
To claim gays are treated equally in the US when they can't even have a fucking funeral without a protest outside with 6 year olds holding signs saying "God Hates Fags" is a bare faced lie.

More idiocy from you. The protests you are speaking of, conducted by The Westboro Baptist Church, are done at the funerals of dead soldiers. Not the funerals of gay people.

Oh, am I. My mistake, I forgot you can read my fucking mind. Believe it or not I was talking about the protests at gay peoples funerals. You know the protests I spoke about, ie. not the completely different protest you're talking about. You don't get to decide what I'm referencing.

By the way, ever heard of Matthew Shepard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard
Obviously he wasn't tortured, murdered and protested at his funeral all for being gay, that only happens to the solders that are defending the country. That's why I could only possibly be talking about those protests.

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
The reason they protest is because, according to them, US soldiers are being killed because God is angry at America for being "accepting of the Homosexual lifestyle".

While it is possible one or more of the soldiers who had their funeral protested was gay, they weren't open about it. At least not to the military. Since you obviously know nothing about America I will let you know that the policy of "Don't ask don't tell" means that gays can't be open about their sexuality and serve in the military.

Thank you, you inadvertently shown another right gay people don't have. If a gay man wanted to keep a photo of his boyfriend (because they legal can't be married in the USA), he can't he must hide it, but if a straight guy wants a photo of his wife, that's just fine. It's a fucking double standard and you know it.

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
They can't marry, they can't adopt

They can in some places.

Meaning that is other places the fucking can't. How about we only let women vote in 41 states. I know, we'll only make slavery illegal everywhere in USA accept Utah. Or perhaps we'll force Sharia law, but only in Minnesota. Does this seem fair. It's OK, peoples rights are not violated in some places, so that makes it OK.

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
they can't be made next of kin for the partners thus they can't visit each other in hospital

My step-dad's brother is gay. He was just in the hospital, and no one tried to prevent his partner from visiting him. Your move, Sherlock.

Isn't that nice. My grandmother smoked for 60 years straight and never got cancer, clearly smoking doesn't cause cancer. Just because it didn't happen to him doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Do you have another pointless anecdote for me?

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
They can't even get a job in many schools or public buildings in many states. Gays are persecuted more than any other group, and Fist is either extremely naive on this subject or rather bigoted.

Again, you don't know what you are talking about. The mayor of Portland, Sam Adams, is openly gay. A few teachers at my highschool were openly gay. I have worked with gay people at several of my jobs. Does it hurt being that stupid? I sure hope so.


http://www.aclu.org/lgbt/discrim/12014prs20020507.html
Never happens does it.

They don't even have to be gay, they only need to be not anti-gay and they'll get the sack.
http://www.babble.com/CS/...play-gay.aspx
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-8352947.html

Now... I think we should stay back on topic. You're clearly not able to debate with me on the subject of gay rights on an equal footing so I think we should leave it at that.
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#26842 - 07/05/09 05:31 PM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: Maxim D]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
TC, you should definitely start a gay marriage thread. It has come up a few times and could use it's own thread.

Never the less, marriage is an ancient social construct and is by and large a religious construct. A secular state will have a great deal of difficulty legitimizing gay marriage without defining what exactly a marriage is. In most of the EU there will be a great deal of hand wringing over the issue as they may have to own up to the fact that one-man-one-woman marriage is a Christian construct that is protected and promoted by the State.

It is worth noting that the Greeks had the most gay friendly culture on Earth yet even they did not even have a concept of gay 'marriage.' Why?

In any event, banning some sort of religion or dress in the US would be simply impossible. Our 1st Amendment of the Constitution quite simply prohibits restrictions on religion and other forms of free expression. While I generally dislike Muslim culture there are perfectly free to exercise it here in the US. But I do rather appreciate France fighting back against the Muslim invasion.
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I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#26844 - 07/05/09 05:48 PM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: Fist]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
 Originally Posted By: Fist
In any event, banning some sort of religion or dress in the US would be simply impossible. Our 1st Amendment of the Constitution quite simply prohibits restrictions on religion and other forms of free expression. While I generally dislike Muslim culture there are perfectly free to exercise it here in the US. But I do rather appreciate France fighting back against the Muslim invasion.

I can understand someone's opposition to the banning of the Burka based on the US first amendment however it's used as an item of oppression, it breaks many surveillance and security laws in countries (such as when Muslims have sued at airports because looking like a letterbox was considered not suitable for airport security) and at the very least it's at a time where we need to make a statement against Islam in Europe due the demands placed on us. Europe is having it's colourful culture curtailed because it might offend Muslims and Muslim ideals superimposed on top.
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#26845 - 07/05/09 05:53 PM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: TornadoCreator]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
That's right, take my quote but don't bother to quote what I'm referencing otherwise people will be able to see for themselves that you're twisting words to your own liking.


I twisted nothing around. If you think gay marriage bans are a matter of segregation or civil rights violations, you do not know what either of those are. I don't need to twist anything to show that you don't know what you are talking about. You can do that on your own quite well.


 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
Good job on the quote mine there, you're becoming quite the pathetic forum troll. I actually justified this statement but that can't have been important, oh no. Don't worry though, the average member of the 600 Club is intelligent and has a long enough attention span to remember my points or sense of curiosity strong enough to make them look back one page.


Ok. Let them look back then and decide on their own who the real troll is.



 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
That you have a RIGHT to obtain with any person of your choosing, so it's a fucking right then isn't it you damn fool.


No you don't have the right with any person. You can't marry a 12 year old, though I am sure you would like to be able to do so.

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
No, but the law does, and as the law dictates if people are having their rights violated and not you, it makes more sense if I'm arguing against them doesn't it.


Um, no.

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
Thank you, you inadvertently shown another right gay people don't have. If a gay man wanted to keep a photo of his boyfriend (because they legal can't be married in the USA), he can't he must hide it, but if a straight guy wants a photo of his wife, that's just fine. It's a fucking double standard and you know it.


They could very well have a photo, they would just have to lie about who the photo is of. Also I never said it wasn't a double standard.

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
Meaning that is other places the fucking can't. How about we only let women vote in 41 states. I know, we'll only make slavery illegal everywhere in USA accept Utah. Or perhaps we'll force Sharia law, but only in Minnesota. Does this seem fair. It's OK, peoples rights are not violated in some places, so that makes it OK.


Again, I never said it was ok. In fact I said I am all for gay marriage. I just don't see marriage as being a right for anybody.
Since states have the right to make their own laws it is up to the individual states to decide their policy on gay marriage. And if you are expecting things in life to be "fair" you are even more delusional than I thought.

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
Isn't that nice. My grandmother smoked for 60 years straight and never got cancer, clearly smoking doesn't cause cancer. Just because it didn't happen to him doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Do you have another pointless anecdote for me?


The statement you made would have it sound like that it is true everywhere for everyone. All I did was point out, yet again, just how wrong you are.

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
http://www.aclu.org/lgbt/discrim/12014prs20020507.html
Never happens does it.


See above response.


 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
Now... I think we should stay back on topic. You're clearly not able to debate with me on the subject of gay rights on an equal footing so I think we should leave it at that.


\:D
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No gods. No masters.

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#26847 - 07/05/09 06:58 PM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: TornadoCreator]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
 Quote:
Sure, I support free speech, but the burka is practically bad as well, security cameras and such need to be able to see peoples faces


The way you are talking it appears that you support free speach as long as what is being said is what you believe in.

Maybe they should also ban Furry suits, as you can't see someones face in those either?? Whether you wear one or not, people do wear them, so they are 'practically bad' also. By your reasoning that is.

Zephyr
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#26852 - 07/05/09 09:42 PM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: ZephyrGirl]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
 Originally Posted By: ZephyrGirl
 Quote:
Sure, I support free speech, but the burka is practically bad as well, security cameras and such need to be able to see peoples faces


The way you are talking it appears that you support free speach as long as what is being said is what you believe in.

Maybe they should also ban Furry suits, as you can't see someones face in those either?? Whether you wear one or not, people do wear them, so they are 'practically bad' also. By your reasoning that is.

Zephyr


Now you're just baiting.

I actually don't support the banning of the burka, not really. I want to support the banning of the burka because I can't stand Islam and want to piss all over it wherever possible, but I consider freedom of expression to be a right everyone should have. It puts me in quite an interesting position actually, because I have really strong feeling that in this case both support and oppose the banning. I'm anything but simple.

My only argument against the burka that has some decent logic behind it, is this. In any major city in UK, if you walk into a shop, bank, public building etc. You cannot be wearing an obscuring hat or hood as your face must be visible for CCTV. The burka completely covers everything. Why should the burka be exempt from the rule. If people expect equal rights they should expect equal treatments. It's a good reason to ban burka's in businesses and public buildings, but not entirely. It's the only thing I have that really counts as a reasonable argument against the burka though. Everything else is "It'll really piss off the Muslims".

As for fur suits, if people wore them in public you'd have a point, they don't (or at least extremely few of them do), and I certainly don't, you have no point, you're just looking for an argument here. Grow up.
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#26855 - 07/05/09 09:55 PM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: TornadoCreator]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Burqas should be illegal, however wearing a hijab meets Islamic requirements for covering the hair. This allows the full face to be seen. If the beekeepers bitch about it, they can always fall back on the hijab, along with draping their bodies in black sheets, to be considered "modest" amongst their peers and in the eyes of their detestable Allah.

And don't forget, that these women happen to be the most fervent supporters of wearing a burqa. Stockholm Syndrome + social stigmatism = Muslim womens' stance on "modesty". They just can't see their situation the same way WE do.

But if they want to live in our society, they have to be willing to compromise. We'd have to do a hell of a lot more if WE wanted to live in the Middle East, that's for sure. That is, of course, anyone in their right minds would WANT to.
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#26856 - 07/05/09 10:38 PM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: Nemesis]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
 Quote:
But if they want to live in our society, they have to be willing to compromise. We'd have to do a hell of a lot more if WE wanted to live in the Middle East, that's for sure. That is, of course, anyone in their right minds would WANT to.


A big fucking A to that one Sista!

I don't know what it is like in the States, but nudity is banned pretty much everywhere on the streets of Australia. If I'm not allowed to walk down the street naked if I want to, why should 'they' be allowed to walk down the street covering their faces.
Tit for Burqa as such.

And TC, I like having a stir. Grow up?! Fuck off, I'm sucking the marrow out of life, not trying to impress you with my maturity.

Zephyr


Edited by ZephyrGirl (07/05/09 10:39 PM)
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#26884 - 07/06/09 04:44 PM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: ZephyrGirl]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1751
Loc: New York
I have a feeling of great discontent towards the Muslim religion. The word despise would be more fitting.

However, as much as I dislike their beliefs, traditions and so on, I cannot condone the banning of the Burka.

It almost seems that no matter what we do, the Muslims win.

After the terrorist attacks on the United States, we have become close to a police state, where individual liberties, take a back seat to perceived safety. It is true, that there have been no more attacks on American soil (yet), but the price for this has been personal freedom.
Since ending personal freedom, appears to be more of the Muslim agenda then physically wiping everyone who is not Muslim off of the face of the planet; it seems to me, that they are winning by a very big lead.

In the same sense, banning Burka’s, doesn’t so much mean a victory for non Muslims, but instead another win for Muslims, since one more privilege has been wiped away. That privilege being, having the right to dress in any manner that one might chose to. If a person does not wish to show their face in public, why should they have to? One might argue, that it is also frowned upon for a person with a fully hidden face to walk into a bank. However, the later case can be argued that most often anyone walking into a bank fully masked has the intent of robbing it.
Yeah yeah but what if it’s brutally cold outside, and the person is just covering up against the cold. This argument can go round and round forever.

At what point will it be illegal to wear head scarfs, hats, or cut off t-shirts?

As a side gag, I would like to include (using my psychic powers) a possible retort by two of my pals on here.

Tat2zz: What do you care about the fact, that it is now illegal for women to wear Burka’s in France. This does not affect you in anyway, and instead of arguing about it, why don’t you get your ass to France, and hand out fliers in protest!.

TornadoCreator: Asmedious is not talking about the Burka itself, and that people should be allowed to wear one. He is talking about the impact of of inhibiting ones choice to wear what ever kind of clothing they wish to. I also hate Muslims and Burka’s, but I would be willing to fight and die for your right to wear one!!

(Just having a bit of fun)

Asme.
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#26889 - 07/06/09 05:27 PM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: Asmedious]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
TornadoCreator: Asmedious is not talking about the Burka itself, and that people should be allowed to wear one. He is talking about the impact of of inhibiting ones choice to wear what ever kind of clothing they wish to. I also hate Muslims and Burka’s, but I would be willing to fight and die for your right to wear one!!

(Just having a bit of fun)


Am I really that predictable... damn.

You got my basic response quite accurate. Although die is a little too strong, as much as I'd like to think my convictions are that strong if I'm honest they're not. I'm not really prepared to die for my views, and few people really are, but as a figure of speech it's certainly something I've said in the past.
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#26890 - 07/06/09 05:31 PM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: Asmedious]
Impius Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/08
Posts: 60
Loc: Lille, France
 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
In the same sense, banning Burka’s, doesn’t so much mean a victory for non Muslims, but instead another win for Muslims, since one more privilege has been wiped away.


It's a privilege of theirs to wear this kind of stuff. It's a victory of ours to forbid it and keep our states non-religious.

But you've got a point here. We shall not let the terrorists make us afraid. US paranoïa is a natural reaction (or so would it be if it hadn't been ordered by Bush's governement, in which I never put any trust), but this kind of reaction should be overpassed and the right decisions should be made, that is to say try and find a way to fight terrorism efficiently, instead of letting the fear they inspire us make us get paralyzed.

(Of course, I'm not implicating that a Muslim has to be a terrorist or even a potential terrorist. These are two separate things.)
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In the end everyone dies...

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#26899 - 07/07/09 02:24 AM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: Impius]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
Big Slick
active member


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
 Quote:
(Of course, I'm not implicating that a Muslim has to be a terrorist or even a potential terrorist. These are two separate things.)


Why is it that when Islam or Muslims are discussed, and a negative opinion is stated, that opinion needs to be followed by a disclaimer much like the one you stated? Is it bad publicity, or more a matter of where there is smoke there is fire? Islam is a virus that needs to be innoculated. With no disclaimers.

By feeling the need to add a disclaimer like that, it only shows they are winning. They are not protected. It shows we have to tip toe around any opinion or debate, or we fear offending them. No one feels the need to add any disclaimer when bashing Christians or Mormons or Scientologists. Why? Because they are less likely to walk up to you strapped with explosives and a cell phone detonator in hand.

I wasn't singling you out, only the disclaimer that seems to be required when any person has an opinion on Islam.


Edited by fakepropht (07/07/09 02:31 AM)
Edit Reason: hit the button too fast
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