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#26902 - 07/07/09 05:05 AM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: fakepropht]
god.over.djinn Offline
pledge


Registered: 06/23/09
Posts: 75
Loc: Melbourne
FakeProphet,

Disclaimers are required because many Muslims (eg from Turkey) come from secular societies and live moderate, secular lives.

In fact, I would prefer the Muslims I know to the Christians, because the former aren't vocal and pushy about their beliefs. Not to say that Islam isn't just as silly as any other religion, but if you want to pick on religions, then Christianity, Judaism and Buddhism are just as bad. So why give Muslims special treatment?

I do hear your argument that there is currently a higher incidence of terrorism coming from people espousing extreme forms of Islam. This certainly needs to be combated. But it seems better to discriminate between friendlies and combatants than between one set of people who have an imaginary friend and another set of people who also have an imaginary friend.

G.O.D.
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SATAN, a recursive acronym invented by GOD: "SATAN: Advocating The Adversarial Nihilist"

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#26905 - 07/07/09 08:00 AM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: fakepropht]
Impius Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/08
Posts: 60
Loc: Lille, France
 Originally Posted By: fakepropht
By feeling the need to add a disclaimer like that, it only shows they are winning.


I'm not showing any such thing, for the simple reason I'm pretty sure that no Muslim will read this forum. I added this because I truly mean it. I know some Muslims, who enjoy practicing their religion, but totally agree with the fact they have to adapt their traditions to the country they live in, and actually they do ! If every Muslim was like them, I wouldn't give a damn about Islam in France. But still, some intelligent people exist, and I think it's worth recalling it.

I wouldn't say Islam has to be eradicated. That would mean forbid people to practice the religion they want. That's totalitarism. We obviously have the right to say "Hey, mate, you're not allowed to do it, even if you do it because of your religion. Laws first.", and that's what we should keep doing. But I'll never tell anyone "Your religion is crap, give it up", or support any law forbidding any religion. That's not Islam that should be moderated, but what people do for it, their acts, what really enters in conflict with our laws.

As I said before, that's two different things. And trust me, I'm not letting Islamism win. I'll stand against every little trick the Islamic organisations try to set up in France to corrupt our laws, because they actually do.
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In the end everyone dies...

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#26906 - 07/07/09 09:39 AM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: Impius]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
As I said before, that's two different things. And trust me, I'm not letting Islamism win. I'll stand against every little trick the Islamic organisations try to set up in France to corrupt our laws, because they actually do.

Corrupting laws?
Most "new laws" concerning muslims are being brought to life because of certain Islamic principles, codes and ideas. This ban some see as a "victory" over Islam is actually a silent evidence Islamic ideas are taking over western civilisation, that muslims aren't "integrating in our culture" but in fact are starting to leech it.

Normally I wouldn't care as long as I am left alone and my own moral codes aren't being violated.. But such things indicate to me something IS going on which might bother me. I'm not afraid to be called racist when I step up to silence their religion and am protesting (by any means possible) to limit their "rights" which they achieved by pressure and feelings of guilt.

It's better to avoid then to cure...

Don't get me wrong, as a person I have nothing against the religion itself, in fact I have nothing against any kind of religion. But within my views this is still the 21st century and religion is something which should be limited so it doesn't rule or interrupt the social community in which we, or better: I, live in.



Edited by Dimitri (07/07/09 09:40 AM)
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#26918 - 07/07/09 04:14 PM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: god.over.djinn]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
 Originally Posted By: god.over.djinn
FakeProphet,

Disclaimers are required because many Muslims (eg from Turkey) come from secular societies and live moderate, secular lives.


I disagree, it's a double standard. People already know that not all Muslims are terrorists, you don't need to make the disclaimer, otherwise you'd feel the same need when people say Christians are homophobes, Christian Priests rape little boys and Christian Churches are money grabbing pyramid schemes. It's a generalisation, and people are aware of that, you're just scared of offending the psychos in the world.
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#26935 - 07/08/09 10:28 AM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: Dimitri]
Impius Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/08
Posts: 60
Loc: Lille, France
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Most "new laws" concerning muslims are being brought to life because of certain Islamic principles, codes and ideas. This ban some see as a "victory" over Islam is actually a silent evidence Islamic ideas are taking over western civilisation, that muslims aren't "integrating in our culture" but in fact are starting to leech it.


Well, that depends on the point of view you take. I think that in theory, Muslims can perfectly adapt to and live in our western civilization as long as they're able to follow its rules and accept its culture (which doesn't mean deny their own). In practice I must confess things don't seem to go very well about it... Is there really such an incompatibility ? However, they're the ones who come, they're the ones who've got to change to fit in. And we're supposed to be the ones who don't look at them in a bad way when they arrive. That may already be too late...
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#26979 - 07/09/09 06:16 AM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: Impius]
god.over.djinn Offline
pledge


Registered: 06/23/09
Posts: 75
Loc: Melbourne
Hi TC,

It is easy to say "oh, everybody knows not all Muslims are terrorists". That doesn't change the fact that a certain level of prejudice exists in the west towards people with darkish-coloured skin and funky headgear. Nor does it change the fact that people who do not share this prejudice will wish to make a pre-emptive strike against bigots, because living in a society with bigots reduces one's personal quality of life.

Disclaimers help pre-emptively diffuse accusations of unjustified prejudice in situations where such accusations might otherwise be made.

G.O.D.
_________________________
SATAN, a recursive acronym invented by GOD: "SATAN: Advocating The Adversarial Nihilist"

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#26986 - 07/09/09 07:34 PM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: god.over.djinn]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
I understand that G.O.D, I can see the point of a disclaimer and in some cases they are requires. The thing is, people almost always make disclaimers about Islam and Muslims when discussing terrorism as though they're trying to say "It's OK, we know terrorism and Islam are different things", when really, they're fucking not. Terrorism and Islam are extremely links. Sure not all Muslims are terrorists and not all terrorists are Muslims, but there is a strong link between the two, and when people make those disclaimers they're being disingenuous to the public and themselves but pretending that what they're referring to is an isolated incident.

The obvious parallel, as I've already said, is that we don't make the disclaimer:-
I know not all Christians are homophobes and I'm not claiming that all homophobia is due to Christianity
When we discuss things like anti gay marriage, or people beating up gay people in the street, etc, because the Bible and Christian ideals ARE the most common reasons behind homophobia and even if they don't want to admit it, Christians at least accept this to themselves.

This is why I say it's a double standard. Muslims will have a riot and cause shit because we dare to link something bad to Islam, Christians, and other groups, rarely kick up such a stink, they're prepared to swallow their faults.
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#26988 - 07/09/09 07:48 PM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: TornadoCreator]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
The Qua'ran is actually a pretty non-violent book from what I remember about reading it. One of the biggest issues with in the schism of Islam, aside from the debate concerning lineage and ascension, is the interpretation of Jihad. Some feel the Jihad is more of a personal and mental concept, others feel Jihad is an all out war on anyone who isn't Muslim.

They have their fair share of nut jobs just like every other religion out there. All countries make war to try to assert their values onto other people/countries. Whether those values be religious, political, economical etc. don't really matter.

People don't like to see their own faults but will certainly be quick to point out the faults of another even if the faults are shared by both parties.

Concerning the discalimers, it is much like a disclaimer made by a person about to make a racist joke. *Looks around* "Dude, you know I'm not racist, but..." If you feel that something you are about say needs a disclaimer, then don't say it. Or, and this may be asking too much, you could just stop being a pussy.

Note: The use of the word "you" was generalized and not directed at anyone specific. You know who you are ;\)
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#26992 - 07/09/09 11:41 PM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: TornadoCreator]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
Big Slick
active member


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
Thank you TC. That was what I was trying to convey. I guess I didn't do a great job at it.
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#26994 - 07/10/09 12:14 AM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
I personally think that Burkas are at once ridiculous and humiliating, and should be spoken out against- but not outlawed.

Many view it as a sign of oppression, and they are right- but the fact remains is that there are even women who WANT to wear burkas, who actually want to live up to the super-conservative-Islamic ideals of "modesty". Why should any type of clothing be outlawed? If I wanted to walk down the street wearing a sheet over my head (it's an example, guys), it seems absurd that I would have the right to because I am a non-Muslim male, but women are prohibited from doing the same thing.

In fact, this will probably backfire- conservative Muslims will most certainly rise up to the challenge and wear the burka more than usual, in the Jihidi spirit of defiance against the infidel (or make their wives wear it more).

Again, the PROBLEM is not women wearing cheap Halloween costumes every day- the problem is that you have ultra-religious households where the women are completely enslaved to the men. Passing a law suppressing a symptom of the problem will not affect actual heart of the matter...

ie, trying to outlaw the burka will not change the fact that Islam is fucking retarded.
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#27187 - 07/17/09 07:50 AM Islamic Supremacist Group Holds US Conference [Re: The Zebu]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
I posted this in the Burka Ban thread, because I feel that this article is related to the OT.

A group committed to establishing an international Islamic empire and reportedly linked to Al Qaeda is stepping up its Western recruitment efforts by holding its first official conference in the U.S.

Phares said that Hizb ut-Tahrir, rather than training members to carry out terrorist acts like Al Qaeda, focuses instead on indoctrinating youths between ages of 9 and 18 to absorb the ideology that calls for the formation of an empire -- or "khilafah" -- that will rule according to Islamic law and condones any means to achieve it, including militant jihad.

Hizb ut-Tahrir often says that its indoctrination "prepares the infantry" that groups like Al Qaeda take into battle, Phares said.


Full article

How is this group NOT on a watch list? I'm all for free speech, but personally I think permitting this conference is crossing a line. Just as troubling, this group has operated "underground" for decades here in the States.

Allowing this movement to hold conferences and attract new members is simply setting the US up to become an über-PC state, like Holland and the UK, where, just because they're not technically breaking any laws, it's ok. Definitely a loop-hole that needs to be closed. But then, that would make it illegal for US citizens to meet and discuss overthrowing the current government we have now.

A double-edged sword, that by not cutting our enemies' throat, we cut our own instead.
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#27188 - 07/17/09 08:00 AM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: The Zebu]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
I don't know where you got the idea that I thought the burka should be outlawed. I never said that it should. I agree that there are women who indeed want to wear them. I have seen these women at my school. I always thought it was funny that they still chose to wear them here, not like they will be stoned to death if they choose not to, but I never once thought they shouldn't be able to. Not like it takes any skin off my dick if they want to wear them.

I will also agree that Islam is retarded, but, it is no more retarded than any of the other religions out there. Unless you think a talking snake makes more sense than the belief that a woman who dare to show her face should be put to death, or at the very least, severely beaten.
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#27196 - 07/17/09 10:51 AM Re: French Ban on Burka [Re: TornadoCreator]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
My actual view on the burka is that I simply don't care how people dress themselves.
I do not care how they even look in the first place or what their religion is, BUT there are always certain manners which SHOULD be obeyed.

I prefer to see my fellow humans when speaking to them in person.
I prefer that certain codes of dressing are being followed for every occasion.
I prefer also that people speak the language in the country in which they live in.

Obeyeing such things is called "integration". It hurts my feelings and makes me "angry" when someone who claims to be integrated even dares to say it when not obeying one of these codes.

I do not mind when one of those walking trashbins and her husband passes me on the street, (and even tough it never occurs) I would be very happy if they obeyed the codes whom are circling here for the appropriate moment.
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#27197 - 07/17/09 11:21 AM Re: Islamic Supremacist Group Holds US Conference [Re: Nemesis]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
Big Slick
active member


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
I'm kicking myself because I can't remember for the life of me the author or the name of the book. A couple of weeks back, a local radio host conducted an interview with a former "terrorist". He has written a book about what is going on, what their methods are, how they think, and what to expect. Specifically focuses on the USA and Europe. In the interview, he mentioned that they are trying to integrate into society. Marry a native. Work their way into the family structure. Fly under the radar. Then they become a vocal force. Trying to change laws and customs to suit them. They run for office. They attend meetings and hearings of public office and make themselves heard.

In his book, he alleges that the new terrorism is not strapping bombs to one's self or blowing up buildings, it is flying under the radar and forcing reforms by being active, vocal, and adamant for change and equal rights.

Look around folks. It is already happening and succeeding.

I will try to find the interview or the author and book. It was very compelling. I sat in my truck on a hot summer day in the parking lot to hear it from start to finish.
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#27199 - 07/17/09 12:58 PM Re: Islamic Supremacist Group Holds US Conference [Re: fakepropht]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF

Google around for CARE International. While a huge portion of their work is humanitarian, they also have a robust legal program who's aim is to impose Islam on Western countries.

The vast majority of Muslims are not radicals. Perhaps only 25% or less of them even give passing approval to the radicals. A much smaller number, maybe 10% or so are actually ideological or material supporters of radical Islam. Less than 1% are potentially dangerous militants. But, that is less than 1% of 1,000,000,000 people. And, due to the insanity of Islam, the majority of them are disenfranchised young men with little prospect of decent employment, marriage, children and overall success in life. This is fertile ground for terrorist recruiters.

The problem with Islam is that the majority of 'normal' Muslims will NOT speak out against the radical elements. To speak negatively of a brother Muslim is 'haram' (unclean, forbidden, un-Islamic). And, the majority of Muslims live in fear of the more insane and radical elements of the sect. Less than 1% of all of Islam is holding the other billion people hostage and taking them down the road to ruin. Even in the West, honor and revenge killings are common place among Muslims. More importantly, even Western Muslims live with the knowledge that they can be targeted at any time if they dare to speak out or buck the status quo.

It is not that all Muslims are terrorists, it is that ALL Muslims support terrorism in some way. Silence is consent. And, if pressed by their fellows, ALL Muslims WILL support terrorism.

Thus endeth the lesson....
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