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#31019 - 10/31/09 05:18 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Raffy]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Quote:
First off, we were, as I understand it, writing about an opinion someone forms about someone else based on what is written by or about that person on the Internet.

Quite a bad way of judgement IMO, I can act like a troll if I want to yet be one of the A-class scientists in the world and most humble person IRL. Internet contains much shit, a few pearls hitherto but only able to spot when the right bullshit filters are activated.

If you only base yourself on someones behaviour as written by a secondary person, then it is a bad judgement and an indication you are nothing but a brainless sheep!

 Quote:
The operative word here is opinion. It is therefore not about the exchange of non-personal information which can or which could be verified by non-Internet means, such as printed books.

When voicing an opinion one should be able to give facts and information to have his opinion biased. An unbiased opinion is worthless.

 Quote:
Yes, because they are family - they become part of our kindred when they join us and have shown their loyalty by deeds.

Smells like niggery to me.
What exactly is your "kind"? People who share the same philosophy? People who listen to some chief who tells others hat to do? A family always contains one or two alpha beings who says the do and dont's. When submitting yourself to a gang or group you are submitting yourself to their rules (even tough they claim to have none, there still is something called social supression and basic behaviour describing the group) thus limiting your freedom.

 Quote:
Yes, because they are family - they become part of our kindred when they join us and have shown their loyalty by deeds.

Out of interest: what kind of deeds?
(this btw is the perfect example of the limitation I described earlier)

 Quote:
It's how successful elitist groups (including Occult ones), successful underground subversive groups, successful "criminal" organizations, and successful gangs, have always operated, in the real world.

Elitist groups always tend to fall apart after a period of time, too many people join and want there share deal of the price. Thus the group is getting bigger and bigger, the "big-ones"think they are the masters yet forget that with the increasing number of people that the loyalty is fading and the group suddenly collapses after a couple of events. Nothing remains afterwards except maybe a few oldies wanting to relive the "old days" and die anyway with maybe doing a few things to get attention.

ONA as I see it is Myatt ALONE. Groups as WSA 352 and others fail badly in it's true ways. Myatt had (as I call it) the power of singularity on his side, pretending he wasn't alone ( and in the end wasn't) was but an illusion to make it look big.
The fact of pretending to have a number of people behind you covering your back is but a strategy to get enough attention and wreak havoc. It is also a strategy used in Guerillia warfare, when groups get too big they tend to split up for:
- better control
- strategic plans
- making sure that the people remain loyal to the ideology and not start to think for their own thus hurting/damagind the clan altogether.


Always learn to think and make a biased opinion for your own, never let anyone dictate you something. When in doubt about something or someone; join or get as close as you can to the subject without hurting/limiting yourself and start making up your own mind.
Own research is the best way to acquire intelligence and knowledge then pre-chewed literrary vomit someone else spews your way.
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Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#31021 - 10/31/09 06:16 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dimitri]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
When reading this reply I somewhat get the impression of someone desperately wanting to look smart in the eyes of others but sadly, doesn't seem to get further than the very desire to do so.

The very point was that forming an opinion about someone based upon a short interaction with them on a forum, or chat for that matter, is not necessarily a correct opinion. So we can leave it at that and somewhat disregard your comments which seem to be nothing but some sort of masturbation.

Second, and this somewhat amused me; the claim that elitist groups always fall apart. Before you vent such an idea, I suggest you either check out the Mafia or the Yakuza as an example. Both are groups that base their initial structures on famiglia or oyabun-kobun in case of the Yakuza. Both are also groups that base their interaction on their own code of honour. And both are extremely successful even when society is at a constant war with them and thus triggers inevitable shifts in membership.
If you move to extreme environments, you will find similar codes of honour in interaction and similar applications of family. In the biker environment, as an example, members regard the other as brothers and also act upon a personal concept of honour. In the army, especially combat units, similar concepts can be found, even when not necessarily expressed in similar terms or that clearly. Anyone every participated in any of those families surely knows what I talk about.

The concept of famiglia in ONA can be seen, even when heterodox to the egocentric perspective of modern Satanism, as a reintroduction of this very successful principle, not only applied because it is so highly successful, but also because it comes natural. But unlike other structures, famiglia in this case, should not be seen as a top-down hierarchy because ultimately, the structure only consists only out of alphas, even when some might be young or require a degree of guiding.

D.

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#31022 - 10/31/09 07:04 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Diavolo]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Quote:
Before you vent such an idea, I suggest you either check out the Mafia or the Yakuza as an example. Both are groups that base their initial structures on famiglia or oyabun-kobun in case of the Yakuza.

The only reason why the mafia anf yakuza didn't fall is because they made small groups within their inner structures.
The mafia in reality is in fact a name given to different groups who work in similiar ways.
Or from wikipedia:
 Originally Posted By: wikipedia "maffia"
It is a loose association of criminal groups that share a common organizational structure and code of conduct. Each group, known as a "family", "clan" or "cosca", claims sovereignty over a territory in which it operates its rackets – usually a town or village or a part of a larger city.


 Quote:
Second, and this somewhat amused me; the claim that elitist groups always fall apart.

To be honest, I stand my ground on that claim. The falling apart doesn't need to be instantly, a few decades can pass, a bit of degeneration of the basic ideology and some time later it is but a term/group from the past.

 Quote:
The concept of famiglia in ONA can be seen, even when heterodox to the egocentric perspective of modern Satanism, as a reintroduction of this very successful principle, not only applied because it is so highly successful, but also because it comes natural.

Agreed, at least with the "comes natural" bit.
A human on itself is always egocentric. Even when working within a clan or a group, even when being the most loyal to the idealogy. At almost any moment there will be the idea of "what is my position here, and how do I get noticed/ better/..".
The family structure within ONA indeed is natural, the only negative aspect is the predescribed respect one should give/have towards other members, something I can't live with... I'm kinda fond of my freedom of mind.

 Quote:
If you move to extreme environments, you will find similar codes of honour in interaction and similar applications of family.

Might be, never been in some sort of "family" or clan-like group, but I still find it somewhat retarded to live by codes of honour as described by others. I have my codes of honour (inspired by maybe a few clans and from which I thought made sense) and I live by them, no need to swallow pre-chewed vomit designed as some three-star meal and feel moved about it. Vomit still is vomit.

 Quote:
The concept of famiglia in ONA can be seen, even when heterodox to the egocentric perspective of modern Satanism, as a reintroduction of this very successful principle, not only applied because it is so highly successful, but also because it comes natural. But unlike other structures, famiglia in this case, should not be seen as a top-down hierarchy because ultimately, the structure only consists only out of alphas, even when some might be young or require a degree of guiding.

One simple remark, since ONA consists out of alpha individuals, then why on earth is David Myatt being pushed forth as the frontman and almost masturbated on as some kind of prophet.
Equality is an illusion, officialy you can say that anyone within is "equal", but I'm bloody well sure that when it comes to real life terms there is some social unspoken hierarchy. I know the human psyche too well to not fall in that bullshit-hole.

 Quote:
The very point was that forming an opinion about someone based upon a short interaction with them on a forum, or chat for that matter, is not necessarily a correct opinion.

Hmmm, might have misunderstood it yesterday.. wasn't quite that able to focus.
The possibility to form a correct opinion about someone even when the interaction is quite short is there. There are indications in someones writing to know what he/she really is (indications varying from the style of writing to what is actually written). It is easy for me to spot (for example) the new members here who aren't going to thrive long here even when you or others congratulate him/her with their "interesting introduction" and "apperently good-looking knowledge".

You only have to learn to see these things, and I know you can't.


Edited by Dimitri (10/31/09 07:13 AM)
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#31023 - 10/31/09 07:26 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dimitri]
Raffy Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 76
Loc: Chicago
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

Quite a bad way of judgement IMO


Diavola has made some good points in reply to you on this topic, and since (1) answers to all the questions you asked can all be found in various ONA material, recent and otherwise; and (2) the basis of your arguments have been refuted in the aforementioned, and other, ONA items issued over the past quarter of a century, I personally see no point in pursuing the topic further here.



 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
as I see it is Myatt ALONE.


A resurrection of Aquino's silly and long-disproved claim, I see.

But if you want to believe that, fine.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Groups as WSA 352 and others fail badly in it's true ways.


Fail in what way? On the Internet - which is where I assume your "knowledge" of them derives from?

Since you almost certainly lack personal knowledge of these people - in the real world - your opinion is just your opinion based on Internet-only information, and therefore requires no further comment from me, as we return in a circular manner to what I wrote in my previous reply regarding such types of opinion.

Which circular return further justifies me making no further comment, since everything that required saying on the topic, by me, has already been said.

As someone wrote:

 Quote:
We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.



So, it is AoB from me, as certain individuals are wont to say.
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#31025 - 10/31/09 07:51 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Raffy]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
You come across as some drone repeating the same sentences over and over again... anyway let me point a few things out.

 Quote:
Diavola has made some good points in reply to you on this topic, and since (1) answers to all the questions you asked can all be found in various ONA material, recent and otherwise; and (2) the basis of your arguments have been refuted in the aforementioned, and other, ONA items issued over the past quarter of a century, I personally see no point in pursuing the topic further here.

I am well aware of these things, but I'm interested in your personal interpratation, not the vomit others have written. Show me you have thought about the writings (if you have done so), show me your interpretation.

 Quote:
A resurrection of Aquino's silly and long-disproved claim, I see.

On the contrary, if I'm not mistaking there is an article of Anton Long/ Myatt where he admitted that for a certain period of time that he ALONE was the ONA. You really should get yourself more informed... (Link will follow)

 Quote:
Since you almost certainly lack personal knowledge of these people - in the real world - your opinion is just your opinion based on Internet-only information, and therefore requires no further comment from me, as we return in a circular manner to what I wrote in my previous reply regarding such types of opinion.

As long as I don't see,hear or read any news-item involving them I consider it as a failure in real-life. Focusing on WSA: Kayla has spread out here whole life on the internet, together with some information which can be quite damaging. Internet is a trashbin (as Diavolo likes to say) and sadly enough when the right trash is being used it becomes a little weapon to manipulate and even supress people...

Internet is an informationsource, and using the correct information can enlighten people.It can even have give a clear view of things IRL, many people are unaware of the amount of their doings they shared with others online. But I bet you didn't know that... you should have listened to your grandparents or parents about the dangers of internet.




Edited by Dimitri (10/31/09 07:53 AM)
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#31027 - 10/31/09 09:24 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dimitri]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
On the contrary, if I'm not mistaking there is an article of Anton Long/ Myatt where he admitted that for a certain period of time that he ALONE was the ONA. You really should get yourself more informed... (Link will follow)


For a while, I was the Order of Nine Angles, although I expect few, outside of our sinister kindred, will understand what I mean here. Most - and certainly all the mundanes - will assume I mean I was the only person "involved with" some-thing called the ONA, but this is a fallacious assumption, since even from the early days there were always around a dozen or so people "involved"...

Questions for Anton Long by WSA352

D.

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#31028 - 10/31/09 09:51 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Diavolo]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
Looks like I forgot the rest of the article, admit my mistake.
Ans apologies for the one-liner which now is transformed into 2 sentences.
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#31030 - 10/31/09 11:39 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dimitri]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
To address some previous matters. I think you have a hard time understanding some things.

The perspective you have upon ONA, Myatt and family is, to use an analogy, like looking at modern Satanism as a group with Gilmore, since Lavey died, as its leader. I can assure you that many modern Satanists would rather perform oral sex on a coyote than consider Gilmore their leader. Any Satanist realizes that modern Satanism is just a label that describes a certain philosophy and that anyone regarding themselves as a modern Satanist does not make them a member of anything and as such, does not shift anyone in a position of leadership. The same is true for ONA.

What ONA presents is a message, what ONA is, is a means of communicating this message. What the role of AL is, is being a communicator. It can't be said simpler than this.

But as all too often, simple is too complicated for most people and they have a hard time understanding things if there is no similarity to that what has been popularized in their brain. Thus ONA has to be some sort of organization with followers and leadership; that being Anton Long who must be idolized as such. They can also not understand that different clans, tribes or families form, based on need or desire, and define their own modus operandi. One can easily operate alone in life if that is what one wishes. What all these people share is what I call blood. There is no grand global hierarchy spreading their tentacles and rulebooks to every tribe or individual who find themselves in the very message.

As for honour, loyalty and respect. It is easy on the internet to claim how limiting these concepts all are and how sinister one is for doing things their way all the time. But these are bedtime stories. Codes of conduct are to be found anywhere. Even here, with all the freedom of mind you pretend to have, you know very well how to behave and what to say to whom. Failing at it will quickly show you the door; about the kindest consequence that can happen to you in real life. Everyone submits to a certain code of conduct if it is beneficial. If you disagree, I invite you hereby and I'll guide you to some places one evening. You can freely speak your 'mind' to the others there; behave according your own unique principles and call vomit vomit and bullshit bullshit. I can assure you already you will not make it through the night. Neither would I if I behaved like that. If respect was not beneficial, the concept would not exist.

As such, an individual that has based his life on his code of honour will have no problems being honourable to anyone living according a similar code. If that is limiting… well then what else could I do but sigh? Loyalty does not even need to be discussed, people having no loyalty, have no honour to begin with.

D.

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#31162 - 11/03/09 04:05 AM Ona Auction [Re: Diavolo]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
There is an ONA/Occult Auction taking place on eBay with dozens of rare books and manuals, etc. Seller’s name is ‘Wyrdactic’

Check the templeofTHEM Wordpress for details.


Edited by Khk (11/03/09 04:57 AM)

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#32623 - 12/07/09 08:16 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Fist]
Conrad Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 9
The notorious Fenrir journal has resurrected itself and is up to no good:

http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/fenrir---issue-i-120-year-of-fayen/8034656


Oh yes, indeed, pseuds.

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#37634 - 04/15/10 01:54 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Fist]
Conrad Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 9
Not again!

http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/fenrir---issue-i-121-year-of-fayen/10284556

Damn right, suckers.

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#105187 - 01/22/16 06:53 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Morgan]
Czereda Offline
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 1857
Loc: Poland
 Quote:
Myatt is smart and as such he understands history, how tribal and societies work,


I don't think that anyone living in the West, in a nuclear family and enjoying the comforts of democracy can really understand what tribal living implies. There is the tendency to idealize things. It's not a matter of history. Tribal societies do exist nowadays, not only in primitive cultures. Muslim countries, India and also Albania come to mind. In such tribal cultures the ancient codes of honor or rules of conduct replace or exist parallel to the official codified laws. They were usually passed orally from generation to generation throughout the centuries and became written down much later like, for example, Albanian Kanun. These ancient laws regulate all aspects of social life, often in a very detailed way, so it has nothing to do with happy anarchy as some Myatt's readers or fans tend to think.

Now this:
"this is, in essence, a return to a tribal way of life, a return to and a development of empathy, and a return to the law of personal tribal honour in place of the abstract law of The White Hordes and of the Magian."

Fixed. Those ancient tribal laws put a lot of emphasis on honor but not on personal honor but the honor of a clan/tribe. Say your kin attacks and rapes a girl from another clan. This other clan swears a bloody vendetta but not just on your kin, who committed a crime, but on the whole of your clan, including you and your children. You think your kin is a scoundrel and as such he should have his throat slashed, but you have no other option than to stand on his side and fight that other clan. Your personal sense of justice, your personal sense of honor don't matter because that other family doesn't give a damn about it. It's a group responsibility. When it comes to revenge, any member of your family will make a good target.

A more extreme case are honor killings in the Muslim societies. The tribal way of life is not about having your own personal code of honor. It's the code of honor of your clan and the rules that stem from the culture you were raised in that you have to conform to. Transgressing the honor code results in serious consequences, often a death sentence. Honor killings are done for petty reasons and women are murdered for such trivial things as wearing too "provocative" clothing or not being submissive enough. Then there come mafias who also function as old-fashioned tribal societies. Breaking their besa, omerta or whatever they call their oath of honor means death. You give your life to your tribe. It's a one way ticket.

Living in clans can have its perks as your family members can give you a job, lend you money, help to raise your children, take care for you when you're old or otherwise help you when you're in trouble. It's all nice if your large family is not dysfunctional. Otherwise, tough luck. In the Muslim countries honor killings are lightly punished or not punished at all. Now, if you are a Muslim immigrant living in the West, you can move out but, if your family takes their "honor" seriously, they can track you down, throw acid in your face, gang rape you or kill you all for dishonoring your blood. And no cops, no state laws will be able to protect you from your own kindred. Honor killings happen regularly among Muslim immigrants in the West. They are often kept secret by the police and referred to as domestic violence because the authorities are afraid of the social unrest, anti-Muslim protests etc.

Is democracy rotten? Perhaps, it is. Are tribal societies better? I don't think so. For sure, both the Western model and the tribal cultures have their advantages and drawbacks. But the tribal way of life is not idealistic as Myatt describes it. Just like the politicians and the government can make your life difficult, the same is with the members of your family if you are forced to depend on them. Their stupid and arbitrary rules can turn your life into a nightmare.
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