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#30639 - 10/19/09 04:49 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Diavolo]
Greg Offline
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I don't think that the ONA find its success because it reintroduces some politics in Satanism. I think rather that it is because of the esoteric speech that Myatt seduced a lot of people,and also because he authorizes whoever according to his doctrine to create his own organization.

Concerning the term of " magian ", it seems to me that Myatt is inspired by Spengler.


Edited by Greg (10/19/09 04:50 PM)
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#30650 - 10/20/09 11:51 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Caladrius Offline
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Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 320
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 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel
... The link [Caladrius] provides leads to slanderous propaganda, the links between its authors and Tos appearing as unfounded allegations. One example of Aquino's iniquity has even been overturned in court.

The reason I'm mentioning this is that Michael probably won't bother replying to it.

Today I took a look back in the 1993 deadfiles at the tedious attacks at the time against the Temple of Set and myself by Christopher Bray in England and Kerry Bolton in New Zealand. I could .pdf my responses/rebuttals here easily enough, but, as quoth Clark Gable, "Frankly, my dear, I just don't give a damn." [And I rather doubt anyone else today does either.]

I will mention only in passing that Lillian Rosoff was never a Setian, never had any contact with me, and withdrew all of her fake claims the moment I contested them in court. As was reported in the San Francisco Chronicle 9/29/94 if, again, anyone cares.

As for Myatt and his "ONA", all I remember about him/it was getting a flurry of unsolicited, badly-written letters in the late '80s from a variety of pseudonyms: "Stephen Brown", "Anton Long", et al. along with supposedly-commercially-published "Satanic rituals", including one for literal human sacrifice. As Britain was in the midst of its own "Satanic panic" in the 80s/90s, this sort of publication was hardly helpful, whether or not it was meant seriously.

And with that I will simply depart this thread and leave the "ONA", whoever or whatever it is today, to those who do care about it.



As a note to the casual reader who may pass by here and read Old Aquino's version of this old exchange between him and Mr. Brown. There are always two sides to a story. It would only be fair for ONA to give its version of this old incident which now mostly evades Aquino's aging memory.

These letters - and your replies - are publicly available. They were published, in photstat, in the two volumes called The Satanic Letters of Stephen Brown, by Thormynd Press, in the 1990's.

I do believe pdf versions of these photstat originals are now available on the Net [for free]. The replies of Stephen Brown, to you, speak for themselves. [I would personally suggest anyone interested in ONA to read this old exchange, because in them you learn to see that one person is posing with empty posturing hiding behind delusions and titles, while the other person does have genuine insight who did not even care to be known - thus the nym]

Copies are available from:

http://nineangles.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/ona-the-satanic-letters-of-stephen-brown-i.pdf

http://nineangles.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/ona-the-satanic-letters-of-stephen-brown-ii.pdf


As for badly typed and having incorrect spelling, I do believe you fell for a sinister jape of the kind the early ONA often employed, and which particular jape has been mentioned many times in some recent ONA items,where it is described as a test. A means to dupe the receiver of the item (letter, or manuscript) into making unwarranted assumptions, and thus is a test of whether or not the receiver has any genuine Occult abilities, or at the very least be cautious about making assumptions about someone they had never met in person.

Another early ONA tactic - in those pre-Internet days - was to send out typewritten MSS with a word slightly altered or spelt slightly differently, in each copy sent out, so that if those MSS were later quoted, or reproduced, it was possible to know to whom they were initially sent.


As for the ONA advocacy of culling, the answer to your objections then - as now - is: so what? The ONA is a sinister grouping, which exoterically is Satanic. It advocated, and advocates, culling because this is often the sinister thing to do in certain situations, be such situations magickal, or otherwise.


The ONA enjoins its members and associates - its nexions and sinister tribes - to be a-moral; to transgress the limits set and made by the mundanes (moral, legal, and otherwise), and states that it is for the individuals themselves to make conscious choices in this respect. That there is, and cannot be, for a sinister organization, anyone or any authority "telling them what they can and cannot do".

So, like I said, this makes the ONA sinister - and serves to distinguish them as evil; as what they would say is genuinely Satanic. In contrast, of course, to the ToS and the Church of LaVey thingy.


Edited by Caladrius (10/20/09 11:58 AM)
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#30683 - 10/22/09 12:15 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Caladrius]
Greg Offline
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Registered: 06/12/08
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Loc: France, Paris
I think that it's difficult to take seriously Myatt for several reasons. At first it's an extreme right-wing opportunist who invented nothing. His political ideas are resumed to Spengler and Toynbee, his esotericism plagiarizes the order of the Black Lily, Kenneth Grant, Savitri Devi without counting that it deforms totally the synchronicity of Jung.Secondly, the origin of the ONA is completely fictitious, Camlad, Noctulians is myths and the ONA does not exist since 1976 as Myatt claims it. Finally, Myatt assumes in no way its identity of Satanist but that of Aryan, Muslim... by hiding behind numerous pen names
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#30686 - 10/22/09 02:45 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Greg]
Dimitri Offline
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 Quote:
At first it's an extreme right-wing opportunist who invented nothing.

Might I ask why someone being an extreme right-wing opportunist be a reason to take someone seriously?

ONA introduces very interesting concepts and ideas within Satanism, regardless being it founded post 60-70ies or regardless Myatt writing different articles and essays under different pen names. Does it even matter that Camlad, Noctulians (or other things) are even fictive? Mirroring this on the bible it is quite an innocent act.

Get out of it what suits you best and improves your current ideas and lifestyle, enlighten.
ONA is interesting, but the whole BS and sinister traditions is only intersting enough for those persons who need drama and want to feel important. Even so, my interest in ONA ends with the whole dogfighting-style of discussion and information Caladrius wrote.

It is a perfect example of getting fed up about something because someone said so..
Sometimes I wonder where the real Satanists are who, at least can, make up their mind and state their opinion in own words without referring to someone else...


Edited by Dimitri (10/22/09 02:48 PM)
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#30687 - 10/22/09 03:23 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dimitri]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Watching this word soup passing as a discussion get stirred around and around is making me dizzy.

ONA is it's own thing. It bears little to nothing in common with contemporary Satanism. Who cares?

Why this pressing need to somehow meld the two? Can ONA not stand on it's own feet without hitching a ride on the coat-tails of Satanism?

Really, folks...
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#30698 - 10/23/09 06:47 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dan_Dread]
Greg Offline
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Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 25
Loc: France, Paris
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread


ONA is it's own thing. It bears little to nothing in common with contemporary Satanism. Who cares?

Why this pressing need to somehow meld the two? Can ONA not stand on it's own feet without hitching a ride on the coat-tails of Satanism?

Really, folks...




I agree, we grant too much importance for an esotericism of extreme right which hides behind a " traditional Satanism " (sic!). Myatt has never had the courage to be really a Satanist, he is only a neo-Nazi rebel of cheap junk.
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#30701 - 10/23/09 09:06 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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Specifics!

Satanism or not aside, this whole conversation, and indeed every conversation I have witnessed here centering on such things as 'ona', 'useful faith', or 'acausal whatever' have taken place purely within the realm of the abstract, of the generalization.

I for one feel that generalizations are the cheap backdoor route of the dimestore mystic.

Of course I am not referring to YOU in this case mah, but as you seem to have been convinced by these people on some level, I apeal to you to bring this into a more tangible realm.

What if anything makes this ONA stuff useful? What are it's applications in the real world?

In what context can it 'help you learn new ideas', and further, what ideas have you learned and in what sense have they benefited you?

I've been looking over this stuff off and on for YEARS, and still lump it in with the rest of the mystical minded hoohaha that the rest of the new agers peddle. Really, what's the difference?

Also, maybe you can tell me if or how this is supposed to tie into Satanism at all? (without redefining the meaning of the word, that is)
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#30707 - 10/23/09 10:24 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Quote:

I still maintain what I've said about not being entirely sure about what I'm going to take away from these readings, but I rather expect it will be something different than what was intended by the author. I suspect I could even lose a few taboos in the process, if I'm lucky.

'Taboos' are a very personal thing. Things you personally believe are 'off limits'. Personally I find many of these 'taboos' serve a very useful function, for example it is 'taboo' to fuck your mother. There are of course very good biological reasons why humpin' the mom is a bad idea, and it indeed is bored into our genetic unconscious.
But assuming a 'taboo' could be found in your life that was implicitly hindering your life in some way, in what fashion could ona material serve you better than good old critical self examination?

 Quote:

all I've found of benefit has been a distinct ignorance of taboos and a refreshing aggression towards anything and everything different from itself.

Do not both islam and fundamentalist christianity offer these same things? In what way do you see value here?



 Quote:

What I hope to find are the memetical introns that are left over from my childhood and excise them from my mind. As such, this may be more of an exercise of subtraction rather than addition, but a worthwhile piece of cutting nonetheless.

While I find this to be a worthwhile and even noble goal, I am left scratching my head as to how the ramblings of myatt might help one in this regard. I often root out irrational 'residual' beliefs and opinions through thought exercises and mental scrutiny. Each time I either discover the root of a thought or belief I hold, or discover that there is none to be had, I improve as a whole. Either my belief opinion becomes strengthened and more able to withstand scrutiny, or dead weight is cut away. In either case..a move in the right direction. What does myatt offer to this end that is better than true critical self analysis?

No offense, but you are still dealing in generalizations here. Where is the meat and potatoes?
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#30711 - 10/23/09 11:41 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Greg]
Diavolo Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Greg
I think that it's difficult to take seriously Myatt for several reasons. At first it's an extreme right-wing opportunist who invented nothing. His political ideas are resumed to Spengler and Toynbee, his esotericism plagiarizes the order of the Black Lily, Kenneth Grant, Savitri Devi without counting that it deforms totally the synchronicity of Jung.Secondly, the origin of the ONA is completely fictitious, Camlad, Noctulians is myths and the ONA does not exist since 1976 as Myatt claims it. Finally, Myatt assumes in no way its identity of Satanist but that of Aryan, Muslim... by hiding behind numerous pen names


Of course you can read what influenced Myatt or Long in their works. It would be quite remarkable if they came up with all their ideas without a solid foundation of knowledge. But to not take it serious because of, would be the same as saying modern Satanism is worthless because the Satanic Bible is essentially nothing but cheap copy pasting.

Second, the mythos of ONA is the mythos of ONA, at times taking a life of its own. Still, it is a bit strange to hear modern satanists use the incorrectness as an argument while Lavey isn't particularly known for being that truthful about his 'past'. Or at least, that is what the rumor is.

So what are the real objections against ONA? It doesn't jibe with you? Basically it always comes down to that. Maybe that is why it wasn't meant for you.

D.

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#30712 - 10/23/09 01:08 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Diavolo Offline
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In the end, most people are fundamentalists; an (a)religious preference or political choice being of little matter in it. It's about considering an untruth being true or not. The key to this realization is to find your very fundaments and act contradictory if needed. That is Vama Marga. In the end, the difference between two choices is merely a preference or usefulness, while the slaves limit themselves with good and evil, even if presented in more euphemistic concepts like beneficial or destructive, sane or insane. If choice leads to damnation; one was damned to begin with. Fate is implanted in our genetic make-up. The rabbit will never hunt the wolf, no matter how hard he tries.

I see it, like you, as a rebellion of the self against anything, but I include the self. Iconoclasts should first throw a stone at the mirror, then through the window. I personally don't see myself endorsing ONA as much as I present my interpretation on certain subjects. ONA itself doesn't need endorsement. Your interpretation weighted your decision; you are the horse in front of every cart you prefer and all the benefits you'll eventually encounter are your accomplishments. As are your failures; blaming it, or praising it, on anything else is eventually blaming or praising god.

At some levels, the whole rebellion might indeed be seen as a teenage tantrum but this teenager is ancient. The Panchamakara is rebellion; all translation into contemporary culture is identical. The difference with traditional Satanism, and I assume we can rightfully call modern Satanism as such in this age, is that ONA doesn't present limitations, rationally sane or not, but only points to options. Crime; an option. Politics; options...etc. All is just a means to an end; find your end and discover the means.

As such, I don't see ONA; first or next generations, as much as organizations or cults as I see them as tribes. And similarity is not as much in their words or ideas as it is in their approach to life and living.

D.

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#30714 - 10/23/09 01:50 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Greg]
Caladrius Offline
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Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 320
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 Originally Posted By: Greg
I think that it's difficult to take seriously Myatt for several reasons. At first it's an extreme right-wing opportunist who invented nothing. His political ideas are resumed to Spengler and Toynbee, his esotericism plagiarizes the order of the Black Lily, Kenneth Grant, Savitri Devi without counting that it deforms totally the synchronicity of Jung.Secondly, the origin of the ONA is completely fictitious, Camlad, Noctulians is myths and the ONA does not exist since 1976 as Myatt claims it. Finally, Myatt assumes in no way its identity of Satanist but that of Aryan, Muslim... by hiding behind numerous pen names



Diavolo did a nice job addressing Greg's issues. But it's true Myatt doesn't identify himself as a "Satanist" does he. Just like he no longer identifies himself as a "Nazi" we can tell from the many manuscripts he write for his The Numinous Way.

Is ONA a Satanic organization, or a Nazi organization? Or is it, as it has stated time and time again that it is a sinister 'esoteric' organization which utilizes such outer forms like 'Satanism,' National-Socialism, and now "Radical Islam" as a MEANS to and end.

If we keep this "means to and end in mind" and take a closer look at Myatt's activities across the past 30 or so years, since his early days in c18, can we not see a common thread or common 'theme' in all that he has done and written?

Even his Islamic identity today shares that common theme, and if you read closely between the lines, you can see that such Islamic identity he has assumed, or become, is a sinister means to the same end.

There is a great article about Myatt and his Islamic identity. Myatt didn't just become any old Muslim. He "claims" Saved Sect. If you look real close at Saved Sect, those who know Myatt, and the 'esoterica' of ONA will see the common golden thread:

[Quote Article: http://higher-criticism.com/2006/04/salvation-is-just-family-affair.html]

Salvation Is Just A Family Affair

David Myatt is certainly no stranger to ideologies, having been active in the neo-Nazi camp and also founding the hardline British National Socialist Movement (BNS). In 1998, all that changed when he walked into a British mosque and announced his conversion to Islam.

David Myatt’s discovery of Islam is vividly portrayed in an Internet article he wrote for the Saved Sect website. His association with the Saved Sect speaks volumes on the stream of Islam he is partial to.

The Saved Sect, more formally known as the Savior Sect, receives its name from the famous hadith (tradition):

"My nation will be divided into 73 sects, all of them will be in the Fire except for one (the saved sect)…"

Like most other Salafist flavors that derive the idea of a saved sect (al-Firqat un-Naajiyah) from the hadith, the Saved Sect merely claims to represent the views of the saved sect without claiming that they themselves are saved.

Though it is disputed by some, the Saved Sect is widely alleged to be an offshoot of al-Muhajiroun, which was set up by Omar Bakri Muhammad as a front outfit for Hizb ut-Tahrir in Saudi Arabia. Al-Muhajiroun broke away from Hizb ut-Tahrir in 1996 and was officially disbanded in 2004.

Tariq Ramadan (Western Muslims and the Future of Islam) calls Hizb ut-Tahrir a Salafist-Reformist group, with clear political aims to re-establish an Islamic caliphate. The Saved Sect- along with its now defunct affiliate, al-Muhajiroun- do not detract much from this aim. Like most Salafist flavors, the Saved Sect shoulders the burden of establishing dawah (evangelism) to remind Muslims- most of whom they deem to be on the brink of apostasy- about their duties.

Their manifesto also includes:

1. Labeling popular scholars such as Sheikh Hamza Yusuf and Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi as apostates. Not even Saudi-Salafists like Sheikh ibn Baaz or Sheikh ibn Uthaymeen are spared.

2. Positively identifying the Saudi kingdom as the personification of the ancient cult of secessionists known as Khawaarij (seceders). [see khawaarij]

1. Condemning the practice of taqleed (adherence to a School of Thought) that is widespread amongst Muslims to be a "road to deviation, misguidance, superstition and all other forms of falsehood". [see taqleed]

2. Labeling Sufism as a deviant sect. [see bid'ah]

Such lists are hardly novel, since ideologies don’t ordinarily tolerate one another. The Saved Sect’s criticism of popular Saudi sheikhs, for example, ensures hostility from a tireless and well-endowed quarter; that of Saudi Salafism. However, to extend the point about general ideological intolerance, Saudi Salafism does share a common enemy with the Saved Sect. Both groups detest Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi and many conservative Salafists label him as the Wicked Mufti. A Mufti, of course, is an Islamic scholar who is qualified to issue religious edicts called fatwas. Combined with the appellation, wicked, it denotes a person who perhaps issues heretical fatwas.

Sheikh al-Qaradawi’s brand of deviation, at least according to this article, is called Qaradawism. It’s rather unimaginative, but Olivier Roy (Globalised Islam) describes such exercises as entirely typical of ideological groups in Islam.

" …[they] tend to have the same habit as did the Soviets, labeling a ‘deviation’ with the name of the thinker (Suroorism, Qaradawism, Qutbism)."

Aside from having a whole movement named after him, Sheikh al-Qaradawi is also the target of any number of threats. They range from relatively harmless name-calling, like being dubbed a "barking dog" by no less a personage than Sheikh Muqbil ibn Haadee al-Waadi’ee, to out-and-out appeals for his execution. In this, Sheikh Abu Basser at-Tartousi, a man who explicitly styles himself a Wahhabi [1] and christens the Saudi regime as a kafir (Islam-rejecting) establishment, quotes a verdict by Saudi Sheikh ibn Uthaymeen [2],

" …if he [al-Qaradawi] doesn’t repent, he is to be killed as an apostate."

The Saved Sect, however, carefully maintains that it does not,

"…advocate any type of violence towards any particular nation."

Yet, ironically enough, in an article entitled "How Islam will dominate the world", the group recommends several ways in which a state or country can become Daar ul-Islam (the domain of Islam). One of them states that Muslims should,

"…rise, overthrow the government and implement the Sharee’ah by force…"

[1] The original declaration is found in a now-defunct website (www.tibyan.com) whose cached page I have screen-captured for posterity.

[2] His teacher was Sheikh ibn Baaz, Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and one of those who had been educated by a teacher from the family of Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab.

[End Quote]
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#30735 - 10/24/09 05:56 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Diavolo Offline
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The meat and potatoes.

I assume most people have a need for specifics; like ONA helped me prolong my erection or did charms for my sex life before they see value in it. It doesn't really work like this and so it is pretty hard to provide the practical meat and potatoes that could be linked to ONA insights. But let me try without being too specific for a multitude of reasons.

I've never been a law-abiding man. Partly because it is in our culture to do some shady business (country border towns have a tradition at this), partly because I find laws a slave-concept. Now, even when fumbling around, as many people do, the doing so is pretty harmless. Still, it can be seen as crime. Crime is looked down upon in modern Satanism. There is this general attitude it is not a rational approach on living because there is this inevitable risk factor. Gilmore, as an example, is often acting like a grandmother whenever some satanist could be linked between crime and their precious philosophy. "That fellow can be no satanist because we oppose crime!!!"

In the modern satanic concept, crime is looked down upon. Which is somewhat weird. It's almost as if they are hooked to a certain life style and a level of material accomplishments that they fear to lose their Ikea collection. As if their identity is affirmed by a certain societal status. The interesting part of it, practically and philosophically, is that crime is a more rewarding route to either materialism or experience than the average lifestyle. Satanists can be seen as those always looking for the best deal, as most people do, the difference maybe being, that they don't feel bad about it. Still, most live pretty average lives; they go to work, have a pretty normal relational level with their surroundings and work from there. It's a bit like a domesticated wolf; sure it got claws and teeth but it behaves pretty harmless and goes out in the garden to take a crap.

Now mind you, I lived like that too; I occasionally crapped in the kitchen and set my teeth in a couple but on average, I was a domesticated wolf. Why? Plain simple; crime contains a risk element not worth losing my precious accomplishments. ONA did deliver the meat and the potatoes to free myself of those restrictions. Call it an insight rôle; call it whatever you like but once I realized that crime is nothing but an option and in the end, I am not what I own, I found a new approach to living. So, I started building a tribe, moved places and am grabbing control here; from it's underbelly up. Quite heterodox to what modern Satanism stands for, quite normal as an option in the ONA mindset. It serves two purposes; A, the wolf finding its hunting instinct again and acting upon it, B, developing a cancer that increases the odds of destroying that what I detest.

Now I do know the risk element and if things proceed as they do now, I will at one point inevitably get caught and convicted. I am smart and clever in my approach but at one point the probabilities will be unfavorable to me. Thinking it will never happen is denying reality, but even in this, I see nothing but a potential experience. Jail is just another extension of society with a specific code of behavior and as such, a challenge, not a punishment. Societal wrath is a flea in the pelt of a lion. Doing time is nothing but another insight rôle; enforced by your surroundings maybe but nonetheless an experience which should not necessarily be shunned. That insight is another part of the meat and potatoes ONA delivers; maybe not a sane one or rational one, as in how most people prefer to look upon life, but an as rewarding one as all other heterodox actions.

Vama Marga shouldn't be practiced in a comfort zone.

D.

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#30741 - 10/24/09 01:56 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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So to you the whole thing is reactionary against what you see as limitations in contemporary Satanism? To you ONA is some sort of metaphorical green light to shamelessly live a life of crime?

As a man that was raised on the underbelly of society, and who clawed and scratched my way OUT of that to attain some sense of stability and normalcy, I suppose that appeal will just never exist for me. I already lived through that and just don't see it as a desirable option.

So if THIS is the meat and potatoes...excuses offered to behave like a criminal, I think I will pass on this particular meal.

I have this sense of JUSTICE that is wired deeply into my psyche, ironically enough placed there through outlaw ethics that will prevent me from ever being a thief, or a rapist, or a killer or whatever else. Maybe you might view this as a limitation, but I see it as a strength.

And with that, any passing interest I may have had here vanishes and so do I, insofar as this subject matter is concerned.
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#30752 - 10/25/09 12:00 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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Shamelessly live a life or crime. Excuse me but that sentence made me laugh. What should I be ashamed about? The opinions of others? Seriously, what kind of master would I be if the fleas would destine my fate? Justice is ultimately the keyword that slaves use to address their problems; a philosophy that endorses might is right isn't too concerned about trivial concepts like justice. Justice is society protecting the maggots that can't protect themselves. In the end, most things boil down to honour. There is this sentence that there is no honour amongst thieves, but let me tell you; there is more honour amongst the criminals than there is found in contemporary culture.

Whether you agree or not agree with me is of little concern to me, as is the fact that your ancestors belonged to that very underbelly. The wolf is either domesticated or acting upon its instinct.

D.

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#30759 - 10/25/09 02:40 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Quote:

What should I be ashamed about?

I suppose that depends what sort of criminal you fancy yourself. If you are a thief, and get by on taking things you did not earn, that makes you a parasite. If you are a rapist or con artist, the same applies I guess, only to a greater scale. If the bullshit of myatt has somehow convinced you that there is no shame in being a parasite, have at it I guess.

 Quote:

...as is the fact that your ancestors belonged to that very underbelly

Nobody said anything about 'ancestors'. I've been a part of that same underbelly you endorse not out of some flippant sense of mid-life crisis but out of necessity. There is nothing to be proud of there, and I removed myself by my own hand and effort.

 Quote:

but let me tell you; there is more honour amongst the criminals than there is found in contemporary culture.

Is honour under pain of death truly honour? Besides isn't honour just another limitation to you to be overcome?

If your definition of 'master' is one who disregards everything and lives as a thug perhaps you should pay more attention to black rap ghetto culture, as it would seem to be in sync with what you believe.

Personally the idea of a 'master' devoid of a sense of justice and honour, living as a common street criminal seems beyond ridiculous. But honestly I highly doubt you actually live like that. Talk is cheap.
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