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#26361 - 06/27/09 06:47 PM Yet Another ONA Thread!
Fist Moderator Offline
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Since this came up as part of another thread I thought it deserved it's own post.

Many neophytes come here seeking the secret knowledge of the ONA. Others claim ONA affiliation while knowing little more about ONA than what they read on the Blackwood site. What I can't really get my mind around is how much reasonably correct information can be found on the internet.

A quick google of "Anton Long, Combat 18, BNP" yielded what follows. I can neither confirm nor deny any of this. I simply offer up as a thing found on the internet, which in some cases is much like a thing found in your belly button. However, I do believe that it of some value and may explain a few things that I thought people in this game just knew.

To wit:

As lifted from http://www.cosmicbeing.info/rumours/wells-nine-angles.html

Note, 01.10.09, by PointyHat: The following article was originally written by Jeff Wells, and published on his Rigorous Intuition blog in August 2005. Since it is, in my opinion, one of the most interesting articles written about Myatt, I reproduce it in full here, even though there are several factual errors, about Myatt, in the article. For instance, the Interview once in the Hexagon Archive was with Stephen Cox, not Myatt; Cox was never even a member of the ONA (let alone its leader); and his Occult group had no connection to either the ONA or Myatt.


Nine Angles of Separation


“ In the mid-90s, in an essay entitled “Death Before Dishonour,” British neo-Nazi political philosopher David Myatt wrote:

To live and act like an Aryan - that is, with nobility of character - means upholding and living by this principle of Death Before Dishonour. Nothing else is more important - not personal happiness, not personal love, not personal comfort and wealth. This principle expresses the spirit, or ethos, of the Aryan warrior, and to be Aryan means to live like such a warrior, for however short a time.

Also, in “The Divine Revelation of Adolf Hitler”:

Quintessentially, the revelation of Adolf Hitler has rendered all other religions obsolete. For this is the first and most important revelation of the cosmic Being - of the purpose of the cosmic Being. Other religions now belong to the past; they are historical curiosities…. All these religions are earth-bound; they do not seek to fulfil a Destiny among the stars, bringing more life, more consciousness.

At about the same time, Anton Long, Grandmaster of the British-based “traditional” Satanic group the Order of Nine Angles, wrote:

We uphold human culling as beneficial, for both the individual who does the culling (it being a character-building experience) and for our species in general, since culling by its nature removes the worthless and thus improves the stock. Naturally, there are proper ways to choose who is to be culled - each victim is chosen because they have shown themselves to be suitable. They are never chosen at random, as they are never “innocent.”

Two years ago, in “The Perspective of Islam,” radical theoretician and al Qaeda apologist Abdul Aziz wrote:

The majority of Westerners condemn martyrdom operations on the basis of the Western perspective, using Western criteria, failing to understand the Muslim belief that this life of ours is only a means, a test, and thus failing to understand that many Muslims are willing to give up their own lives in order to do their Islamic duty, trusting as these Muslims do in the judgement of Allah…. Our life here on this planet we call Earth is only an opportunity - never to return - to gain entry into Jannah and that one of the best means to gain such entry is to strive, and if necessary die, in the Cause of Allah.

What do these people have in common? Everything. They - and many more, besides - are the same person. Let’s call him, for simplicity’s sake, David Myatt. But what he is, there’s nothing simple about that.

Combat 18 is a neo-Nazi org formed in 1991 to provide hooligan muscle for the racist British National Party. (Its “18″ numerically represents “AH,” the initials of Adolph Hitler.) Myatt has described himself as its political philosopher.

There’s much suspicion, on the both the left and right, that Combat 18 “was created by Britain’s internal security service MI5 to discredit the BNP while acting as a honey trap, or sting operation, designed to attract the most violent neo-Nazis in Britain into a single organization, where they could be monitored more easily.” Its leader, Charlie Sargent, who was sentenced to life imprisonment in 1997 for the murder of another member, was also an alleged Special Branch informant.

Combat 18 splintered, with Myatt founding the most radical faction, the National Socialist Movement, which remained loyal to purported informant Sargent.

In 1999 NSM member David Copeland conducted a racist nail-bombing campaign which killed three people and injured 129. Myatt’s “A Practical Guide to Aryan Revolution” was particularly formative to Copeland’s thinking. In a profile of Copeland, BBC’s Panorama determined:

…the man whose ideas had more influence than most on Copeland was David Myatt from Worcestershire, founder member of the NSM and its first leader. He once said the Nazi movement needed people “prepared to fight, prepared to get their hands dirty, and perhaps spill some blood.”

And though Combat 18 splintered under suspicion of members’ motives and loyalties, it isn’t quite finished yet being a bloody nuisance. A headline yesterday from Northern Ireland (where Combat 18 is reputed to be used by MI5 to infiltrate Loyalist paramilitaries): Neo-Nazis have threatened me, says Ulster assembly member John Dallat, who has received threats from Combat 18 to burn down his house and torch his office.

The Hexagon archives records an encounter with the unnamed leader of the “Order of Nine Angles” - apparently Myatt [ Not, in fact, Myatt: See Editorial Note, above] - who supposedly co-authored a book with associate “Christos Beest” which likened the ONA “to a modern equivalent of the German Thule Society, precursor of the Nazi Party and responsible for a number of assassinations of dissenters…the reader is lead to believe that the group are busy ‘culling human dross.’”

Hexagon, while refusing to disclose the name of the leader, found “a nucleus of four middle aged men surrounded by up to ten younger aspiring acolytes, again all male. The group [ unnconnected with the ONA: see Editorial Note, above] uses homosexual rites and although they may well have contact with the far right are highly unlikely to be capable of carrying out numerous murders as darkly hinted at.”

In The Song of a Satanist, “Stephen Brown” - yet another Myatt pseudonym - writes:

Most Satanists cannot publish an autobiography, or even have a biography which relates their life in detail while they still live, for the simple reason that it would probably render them liable to prosecution by those asinine guardians of the even more stupid system of ‘Law’. (Plus the fact that most wish to continue their sinister esoteric work in secret, to aid the sinister dialectic.) If this threat does not exist, then their life has not been Satanic enough.

Another demonstration of the convergence of fascism and occultism is found in the ONA’s Temple 88, which is described as an instantiation of the “aryanist and national-socialist ideas/ideals of the Order of Nine Angles.” The writings of “Temple 88″ are recommended for higher initiates, having “reached the seventh stage (Saturn) of the septenary Tree of Wyrd,” who are “assumed to be able to judge and understand why the usage of national-socialism and aryanism is implemented in the Order of Nine Angles ideological structure.”

And what are the Nine Angles? A ceremonial means to manifest the “Dark Gods.” And perhaps not surprisingly, here’s where things get Lovecraftian:

The details that Lovecraft gives regarding ‘calls’ and rites are mostly fanciful and only in a few places does he inadvertently reveal the truth - for example, in his mention of the trapezohedron and ‘Azathoth’. The key to travel along the passages between the star nexions is the Nine Angles and the key to the Nine Angles is the crystal tetrahedron which is activated by voice vibration. ‘Azathoth’ as described by Lovecraft, is a symbolic and distorted re-presentation of the intersection, in acausal space-time, of these astral star passages: a kind of galactic vortex or node. Those who journey there never return the same. Along the star passages the shells of long dead civilizations lie strewn. The Nine Angles (the key to contact both physical and astral) are re-presented in the septenary Star Game and it is through this symbolic re-presentation that the magick of the Dark Gods is made manifest. The rest, to the uninitiated, is sheer terror.

(Lt Col Michael Aquino has authored the Lovecraftian “Ceremony of the Nine Angles” for the Temple of Set, but disavows Myatt and the ONA’s public embrace of human sacrifice.)

And since we’ve come this far, let’s remind ourselves: according to the ONA, where do these “Dark Gods” reside?

The acausal universe itself may be described as that aspect of the cosmos bounded by acausal time and possessing more than three spatial dimenions; the causal universe may be described as that aspect of the cosmos bounded by causal, or linear, time and possessing three spatial dimensions at right angles to each other. The entities known to esoteric tradition as the Dark Gods are beings which exist in the acausal universe. Other such beings probably exist in the acausal realm, but the Dark Gods are known to us through having, at various times in our evolution, ‘intruded’ into our spatial universe.

As I’ve noted in an earlier post, the “acausal universe” recalls Michio Kaku’s Parallel Worlds, in which he writes that “anyone who can tap into the fourth spatial dimension (or what is today called the fifth dimension, with time being the fourth) can indeed become invisible, and can even assume the powers normally ascribed to ghosts and gods.” And interestingly, one of the things David Myatt may be said to be with some assurance is a student of physics.

In 2000 Myatt reputedly converted to Islam, and quickly became an advocate for al Qaeda “martyrdom operations.” Though as he had often done, Myatt hid his previous associations by assuming an alias. He became “Abdul Aziz.”

This story from February 16, 2003, entitled “Midland Nazi turns to Islam,” was one of the first to make the connection between the “Koranic scholar,” the neo-Nazi and the occultist:

A “Satanic Fuhrer” who urged neo-Nazis to fight a race war has turned full circle to become an Islamic fundamentalist.

Midland-based David Myatt, 51, was the political guru behind white supremacist group Combat 18 and has been the leading hardline Nazi intellectual in Britain since the 1960s.

Now the self-confessed Pagan and Adolf Hitler worshipper hails al Qaida leader Osama bin Laden as his inspiration and praises the World Trade Center attacks as acts of heroism…supporting suicide missions and urging young Muslims to take up Jihad.

“Turning full circle” always sounded to me like a lot of fuss to create the appearance of motion, while returning to one’s starting point.

Is Myatt an agent provocateur, a shit-disturber who can’t settle upon a radical philosophy, something more, or something less? It’s difficult to assess motive, but consider that he has been arrested numerous times for such things as writing and disseminating “practical terrorist guides” on suspicion of conspiracy to murder. These cases have always been dropped due to “lack of evidence.” Does he enjoy protection? The record is suggestive that he does. And if it appears so, then we should ask the next question: Why?

One Muslim internet user told the Sunday Mercury that Myatt, who has an IQ of 187, had convinced other users he was an Islamic scholar with his eloquent arguments backed with Koranic verses. He said: “After September 11 Abdul Aziz’s messages started to become more extreme.

“But because he wrote with authority, many less-knowledgeable Muslims thought he was a holy man and began supporting his fundamentalist views. When his true identity was revealed by other users on the site, he changed his online name to Abdul bin Aziz and then al Haqq.”

Myatt may seem to have flitted from one politico-religious philosophy to another, but there is a terrible thread of continuity and rigour through his life and writings that suggests he is much more than a disingenuous provocateur. Naziism and Islamicism have served, in turn, as modalities of disruption for what remains at core an occult working to sow general chaos and division - the necessary passage of “Helter Skelter” to break down the Old Order, before the founding of the New.

So again: whose interests are served by there being a David Myatt? Is he is own man - or men - or does he belong to someone else? Or is it something else - an intelligence service perhaps, or something, say, acausal? ”
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I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#26386 - 06/28/09 01:37 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Fist]
Mike Offline
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Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
Hm...I always wondered how there was a connection between neo-nazism and Satanism. I always thought the National Socialist Movement had something to do with the JoS. I read I believe on a website where con artists are revealed that the supposed leaders of the JoS were once members of the National Socialist Movement. Does this mean that the radical beliefs of the JoS are somehow related to the ONA?
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#27130 - 07/15/09 02:17 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Mike]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
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The Joy of Satan certainly have no relation to the ONA.

The ONA was a British group formed from the merging of avant-garde LHP occultism, neo-heathenism, and far-right extremism. The inner members were pretty much batshit insane, but you can't deny that they had an incredibly complex and intelligently-planned system.

The Joy of Satan, on the other hand, is an American group formed by a bunch of hicks whose understanding of Satanism does not go past infantile diabolism. Whereas the ONA was clearly balls-deep in western esoteric tradition, the "magick" of the JoS is limited to guided meditation and ESP-parapsychology nonsense.

It also deserves mention that the JoS is explicitly Theistic, calling Satan "Father Satan", praying to demons, believing in a literal afterlife in Hell, etc... not to mention their Sitchen-based UFO theology. The ONA, on the other hand, seemed to posit that the "Dark Gods" were abstract extra-dimensional principles representing chaos and acausality (not unlike the anti-cosmic beliefs of the Temple of the Black Light) The ONA also stated that any group claiming "direct revelation from Satan" is bullshit (the reason they ragged on Michael Aquino for his "Crystal Tablets")-- which is exactly what the JoS claims, since its' high priestess says that Satan personally speaks to her on a regular basis. (Seriously, she needs mental therapy or something)

As far as "extremism" goes, the ONA had clear links to several radical organizations connected to violence and illegal activity. While the Joy of Satan also has connections to white-supremecist/neonazi groups, they are not nearly as "extreme" as the ones the ONA dealt with.

For one, the JoS's neonazism is flagrantly out-in-the-open, and consists of a bunch of hick racists and Klan-types who like to hold public rallies and parade around in SS uniforms, yet have never had (to my knowledge) any problems with illegal activity.

Overall, the ONA has garnered a bit of byspoken reverence from the neonazi community, whereas the JoS is generally a laughing-stock. If the ONA were still active, though, I would imagine that they would use the JoS as a source of potential recruits.

=============

As far as Myatt goes, I have several reasons to believe that he is Anton Long:

1. Links to the same violent far-right extremist organizations

2. Both were initially involved in Heathenism/Neopaganism

3. Tendency to jump from framework-to-framework to further personal/racial/aeonic agenda

4. To boot, Myatt's website looks like a carbon-copy of the ONA's site.

Although, I'm pretty sure that Myatt has moved past the ONA for good, for the purpose of advancing his own ideas. Where the other original members are, I have no idea, but I do know that Christos Beest (co-author of the Black Book, writer of the "Invocation to Hilter" and artist of the Sinister Tarot) got scared and ditched the ONA because of its' extremism, recanted his racist/far-right views, converted to Christianity, and now spends his time composing classical piano suites and painting pictures of flowers, birds, and sunshine-y landscapes. I'm not fucking kidding. At least his art has gotten better.

The original ONA has "gone back to being completely underground", which is occult code for "defunct". I suspect a few second-generation members still publish ONA manuscripts online and carry their banner, but the departure of the core members pretty much gutted the group's foundations and connections to other organizations, rendering it little more than a loosely-knit group of occultists following in their footsteps.


Edited by The Zebu (07/15/09 02:22 PM)
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#27175 - 07/16/09 04:03 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: The Zebu]
Diavolo Offline
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I agree that Anton Long is probably Myatt but if or if not does not matter too much. I disagree however that they, or he, is batshit crazy. It's probably a lot easier for people to handle the heterodoxy of specific works or forms in dismissing them, or their creator(s), as crazy as to think, experiment and discover the genius of it all and how different approaches are really rather similar takes on an identical concept.

Myatt's early works are indeed situated into what is easily looked upon as the Neo-Nazis of western culture. I don't think it can be defined that simplistic but it seems to work for society to throw all upon a pile and slap the Nazi logo upon it to either scare people away from specific ideas or limit the potential and opportunities. After all, Nazism is the devil-word of the 20th century. And like with the original devil, the bad vibes and fear it creates distracts the people of the other agenda the Lefties are pushing down upon us.

ONA is a different approach to Satanism and at some levels one that is more loyal to the original Vamamarga than most of current Satanism. It is a choice to take that path but choice here is of course limited to them either being able to make that choice or not being able to not make that choice. A large part of current Satanism is situated in what I see as spiritual Satanism; considering oneself a Satanist only by assuming one is. It's a bit like role playing; a roll of the dices ending in 3 sixes makes people take the satanic identity while a different roll might have made them a communist or an egalitarian street fighter (in identity). It's not hard, reading a couple of pages here and there and people are what they believe to be. Most old timers surely know what I mean when I talk about those easily claimed instant identities. They also know that contrary to what many believe, Satanism doesn't end with learning to recant some basic principles. Consider ONA as the heterodox path in Satanism. A bit strange that Satanism itself also has paths it considers heterodox to itself but such seems to be the case.

Even Myatt's Muslim form I don't see as that strange compared to the rest of his writing. I'd say it mixes real well with the previous ones and the core is always identical in all.

All in all I find ONA the best thing Satanism delivered in the last decades. It however should be looked at as an advanced course. One that is free to take but hard to finish.

Is ONA defunct? Only if you look at it in the wrong manner.

D.

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#27469 - 07/24/09 11:49 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Diavolo]
bluj666 Offline
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Registered: 07/14/09
Posts: 38
Loc: Tennessee,USA
I really dont know how devoted to the occult or Satanism the ONA or David Myatt really was. Personally I think Myatt/Long was tring to capitalize on the growing interest of teens and those in their early 20s in Satanism and the occult as a way to recruit. If you really look into the ONA and its teachings it was very militant and Nazi oriented. The Black Mass was a ritual done in the name of Hitler, Human sacrifice (assination) was very much incouraged, to become an adept one had to isolate themselves in the wilderness for 3 months (with basically nothing. no food, water, literature ect). They also seemed to protray a respectable, bad ass hero figure of sorts much as hitler did to recruit his Nazi followers and as the US government did with media to get citizens to enlist in the army in times of war. Also the ONA played on my aspects that are appealing to individuals with "teen angst" or sever anger at the world as the Nazis do today with the music scene of punk and metal i.e. an outlet, eceptance, a "goal", revenge and or a somewhat heroine figure.
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#27475 - 07/25/09 01:45 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: bluj666]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
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Can you try the spell check feature? Maybe a dictionary? Some of our foreign users can spell and put together sentences better than you can. Get it together, or this bluejay will be flying the coop.
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#27494 - 07/25/09 06:41 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: bluj666]
Diavolo Offline
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I don't see how the devotion or intention of a creator matters to the value of a system. That is rather similar to devaluing the writings of Nietzsche because at one point he lost his sanity or because he maybe wrote it all to solve some psychological issue.
I don't think the intention behind everything is cultism or a glorification of people. I do understand that the generation of today is intoxicated with the glorification of people and that they seem to have grown into a need for role models (Britney became Jesus) but one should learn to separate the creators from what they created and judge and value both independent. Long's devotion to the occult or Satanism ultimately is as irrelevant as Lavey's devotion. What counts is what they shared. Why is of little importance.

What I find amusing is that you seem to be bothered that a Black Mass could be done in the name of Hitler. The Black Mass was/is in essence a heterodox ritual and weirdly enough people are not too bothered when it is/was done in the name of Satan, which was the archenemy of humanity if you think of it, but when it is done in the name of Hitler, one seems to cross some lines. The actual point is to cross some lines. We have come into an era where man became truly more fearsome to some than the devil. And in that, isn't this fearsome man exactly the heterodox personification that becomes valuable in that aspect? The Black Mass is the Panchamakara of the West, our translation of the 5Ms and as such, we can use whatever is heterodox in our culture. The devil sadly lost much of his potency, especially here at the Old Continent.

People talk about Nazis like in the past they talked about witches, or devil worshipers for that matter. Most is based upon what they are spoon-fed by society or political doctrine/religion. Now, I am not going to deny that Nazism contained some of the greatest mistakes of the previous century but at the same time it also contained some of the best of humanity. At some levels Nazism personifies the Western spirit, the soul of the conqueror and Hitler can be seen as a symbol of that Western nature. Of course he lost it at some point but overall he didn't do much that was not in the tradition of all previous Western conquerors. In the Melian Conference (history of the Peloponnesian war by Thucydides) is a fine response from the Athenians: “…since you know as well as we do that right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must…” Might is Right, the foundation of Western civilization. One of the biggest issues we seem to have with Nazism is the extermination of the Jews. While I do not agree with it, what bothers me most is not that they were killed but that they willfully had them be led to the slaughterhouse. While we all do try to find rationalizations for that suicide by proxy one can not deny that defeatism was an essential part of their character and defeatism is always selected against in nature. Abraham sacrificing his son to god is the very core of Judaism. As such, I do see their extermination as unavoidable. They seem to have learned their lesson nowadays and amusingly, that tends to shock us even more. Now we call them the Nazis of the Middle East, which, admit, is as ironic as history can get.

Now, like I said before, ONA isn't the easiest of branches in Satanism but their principles are valid. Our current I-pod generation might find it hard to submit themselves to hardship. After all, many have been nurtured during their first two decades and too many think that a day without the Internet, their cell phone or running out of coca cola is as horrible as it can get. They remind me of a log on water, softly floating, relying on waves to push them into a direction. And as such, they prefer an easier version of Satanism too, something not too hard to understand and preferably, also not too hard to live up to. But even when wielding the satanic label, they remain that very same log on the water. They call themselves, might even be convinced to be Satanists but they are still relying on the waves to push them forward. Essentially Satanism is about becoming the wave itself and push instead of being pushed. That is too hard for many and they prefer to be entertained in their comfort zones instead of trying to go venture out of them and explore themselves. This exploration is not only a physical one but also a psychological one and when people see the value of it, more and more might start to make sense. Excellence does not come by aging. For those who's life is all about reality-TV and cyber-identity, it tends to feel absurd of course. But remember, the RHP, traditionally, is a symbolic life, living by proxy and it is to all to find out in how far they are infected and care to cure themselves. After that, all they need to do is find appropriate tools.

D.


Edited by Diavolo (07/25/09 07:02 PM)

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#27496 - 07/25/09 07:39 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Diavolo]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
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As you know, there is no more misunderstood order of Satanic thought than the ONA. Many neophytes stumble upon ONA material and are draw in by 'evilness' of it without true understand of the sinister didactic.

Much like the Socratic dialog in "The Republic" perhaps our own dialog would be the best way to explain this material to the uninitiated?


 Quote:
It's probably a lot easier for people to handle the heterodoxy of specific works or forms in dismissing them...


Yes. The last thing people want to do is re-think their position on something. It is much easier to dismiss it and call it names. Most people lack the ability to develop memes outside of something they were marketed. Political, social and religious memes all come to ones mind by simple marketing. Fully 90% of all people on Earth are incapable of developing an original thought. A similar number are unable to comprehend an original thought that conflicts with or is too dissimilar to their current programing. Most people now actually talk in buzzwords and marketing hooks.

 Quote:
ONA is a different approach to Satanism and at some levels one that is more loyal to the original Vamamarga than most of current Satanism.


"Satanism is understood by its genuine adherents as a particular Occult way or method. That is, it is a specific path or way toward a specific goal, the following of which involves a particular way of living. The specific path, or 'Left Hand Path', is a dark, sinister one, and the specific goal is the creation of a new type of individual. On a more general level, Satanism is concerned with changing our evolution and the societies we live in - creating, in fact, a new human species and a civilization appropriate to the new type of human being." (Anton Long: Satanism: A Basic Introduction for Prospective Adherents, Thormynd Press, England, 1992)

Transhumanism. Vamachara - to break social taboos to gain freedom and enlightenment - to become a new being in thought and action, to develop new social constructs, and ultimately to bring into being the further evolution of mankind. And, this is what so disturbs the status quo. Imagine if increasing numbers of people threw off the current paradigms and began to construct their own social structures that better suited their own needs and world view.

 Quote:
Even Myatt's Muslim form I don't see as that strange compared to the rest of his writing. I'd say it mixes real well with the previous ones and the core is always identical in all.


Does Myatt's promotion of radical Islam and Islamic terrorism threaten the status quo? Then the question answered!


 Quote:
All in all I find ONA the best thing Satanism delivered in the last decades. It however should be looked at as an advanced course. One that is free to take but hard to finish.


Indeed. If you come to Satanism looking to 'get into' ONA then you are barking up the wrong tree. May I first suggest that the initiate first ground themselves in their own identity? Read Books of the Left Hand Path first.

 Quote:
Is ONA defunct?


Acausal meta-physics would say no.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#27508 - 07/26/09 12:38 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Fist]
bluj666 Offline
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Registered: 07/14/09
Posts: 38
Loc: Tennessee,USA
If you go to this site http://camlad9.tripod.com/ you can read everything dealing with the ONA. Their books, articules, ect. Anton Long never put a copy right on his material, for the basic reason of makeing it as obtainable as possiable.
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#27515 - 07/26/09 02:15 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Fist]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3118

Neverless I do agree with certain ONA principles (i.e., personal evolution, personal growth by taking risks and achieving goals,..) the idea that they are creating a new type of society for maintaining a new kind of human raises more question marks to me, then little cries of pleasure. Even so, the idea of stagnation comes to mind on long-term.

For starters: a new kind of human? What should be new about humans? A new pair of legs? Neo-nazism and the idea of an Aryan race is mostly pushed forward. Despite that idea/ answer I can come up with enough counter-arguments to disapprove this statement. One of them is the evolutionary fact of natural modification triggered by environment. (A black mans' chances of survival are lowered heavily when he emigrates to countries as Alaska, Northern Russia,..) The body isn't simply evolutionary adopted to the new environment.

 Quote:
To live and act like an Aryan - that is, with nobility of character - means upholding and living by this principle of Death Before Dishonor.

Despite the fact this contains some truth, no one ever died of a good ass-spanking or a bit of dishonor. I prefer to be dishonored and to regain my status later by modification on my weaker points so I personally "evolve" and undo the dishonor. It's part of the "personal evolution/growth" which is a main principle within the ONA..

The best warrior is the one who has known defeat...

Last note:
As diavolo and fist said; the principles of the ONA are valid and they are the most misunderstood "group" within Satanism.
(I even admit I do not know everything about this group, only VERY basic knowledge and even that's discussable.) Even though the principles are valid, keep the guard of criticism up. Not only for the tons of bullshit around it, also for the doctrines and ideas within. It is easy to claim you belong to "something", but it's hard to have a decent understanding and nearly impossible to be considered as "full" by the elite.


Edited by Dimitri (07/26/09 02:25 AM)
Edit Reason: spelling
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#27522 - 07/26/09 07:07 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dimitri]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I don't think a new type of society is a that questionable idea. What is going on (generally speaking in a certain context) is actually a contra-revolution, an attempt to bring society back to the level that is human and intentional instead of an artificially created society where egalitarianism is enforced de juro and degenerating laissez-faire seems to be the general and promoted attitude at all other levels. To borrow a sentence of the past "(r)evolution; one mind at a time." At some levels idealistic, I agree, but conditions depend upon probabilities and when none toys with them, only a status quo can be expected. Now, in reality, many do toy with those probabilities and to a degree, the real war is situated at a memetic level. The logical question would be; does one prefer to be a log pushed by the waves or a wave pushing the logs. To some the answer is evident, to others the reality itself of this does escape them.

A new type of human should not be looked upon as a gradual and slow process as natural evolution in species mutation. We will not develop wings in two decades and roam the skies but we do evolve at a faster pace than we ever did. In the past I once had a debate about how the brain seems to evolve separately from the rest of the body or at least differently. At some levels this is true. Our species relies heavily on their brains and most investment by evolution was done there. Every couple of generations the general IQ increases some points, which is actually nothing else but faster working brains. As such, we have evolved immensely compared to humans from let's say the 17th century. Although our appearances might be similar, there is a huge difference in the speed of our brains, the basic knowledge we contain, what is required of our brains these days, and due to that, the interpretation and interaction with reality, which at some levels might be looked upon as a manifestation of our consciousness. We are close to opening Pandora's box and take evolution in our own hands. It can be debated if it really is evolution but when we are able to engineer ourselves and make it inherited traits, there is no difference with evolution. And even if we evolve to technologically enhanced humans, it can be seen as evolution. Transcendence can come in many shapes and this new human should be looked upon as what is called Homo Evolutis by some. They have been given many names but I do think that is the most appropriate in this era. And even when personal evolution is only reached at an emotional or psychological level, it can be seen as a New Human. The Übermensch as Nietzsche described him is Homo Evolutis at some levels.

Race itself is of little importance and I do think cultural traits are more important than the color of skin. As such, the Aryan, when used, should not be looked upon too strict but outside of the previous context and as a symbol for the New Man, the Homo Evolutis. Of course society prefers to uphold the blond Aryan ever hostile German as a symbol of doom but again, that serves a purpose to them. You'll also still find traditional Aryans of course but the world is also filled with creationists. Not all are able to let go old religions or put things into a new and better perspective.

About dishonor. Failure is an unavoidable part of life but to fail does not imply being dishonored. Don't look at those too simplistic. A man that lives by a code of honor will know what dishonor implies and when it is merely failure. He won't kill himself because he got beaten in a fight. But he knows that some fights are worth dying for.

D.

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#27527 - 07/26/09 10:03 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Diavolo]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
As such, we have evolved immensely compared to humans from let's say the 17th century.

I don't think it was that drastic. The human race, like most species, evolves very slowly. We like to think of how "advanced" we are, yet our genetic code has hardly changed since the stone age. It's "social" evolution, certainly, but not in the genetic sense.

In my view, the way modern civilization is right now can only stagnate and pollute the human gene pool, since we have removed ourselves from most of the forces of natural selection. Whether humans will be intelligent enough to safely implement eugenics and bring about the transhuman age has yet to be seen. (We will do it, no question. It's just a question of when) I can only hope we don't screw it up.
_________________________
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#27533 - 07/26/09 11:18 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Diavolo]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3118
 Quote:
In the past I once had a debate about how the brain seems to evolve separately from the rest of the body or at least differently. At some levels this is true. Our species relies heavily on their brains and most investment by evolution was done there. Every couple of generations the general IQ increases some points, which is actually nothing else but faster working brains. As such, we have evolved immensely compared to humans from let's say the 17th century.

1) First one would be that I tend to disagree a bit with the statement "every couple of generations the general IQ increases". I would simply keep it to the brain getting slightly larger, which doesn't imply an higher IQ rate (since IQ-tests depend in current state, influences, background and the questions/test itself. Add the fact that statistics can seldom be applied to conclude the whole population...)
2) (not much of a remark) I tend to agree with you on the part in which you say we have evolved immmensly in comparisation to the average 17th century person (on intellectual level that is, for those who think about bodily modifications). But do keep in mind that "we" are living in a society based on morals in which some have become laws to obey. It is in my view that certain morals over a period of time become "outdated" since no one gives a flying fuck about it anymore.
As an example: antisemmetism is considered "bad" by most. I predict that within a timespan of 100 years no one wold even care about it. The action which caused that anti-semitism to be bad is outdated, it's history and hardly anyone likes history.
An example of evolution of the brain and or ideology? Or something else?
Anyway, it doesn't take away that "old morals" or ideas are still being used or being brought back for various reasons.
3)
 Quote:
don't think a new type of society is a that questionable idea.

When I think of a new society I tend to think about a whole new "hierarchical" structure. Or did I made an interpretational mistake?
 Quote:
And even if we evolve to technologically enhanced humans, it can be seen as evolution. Transcendence can come in many shapes and this new human should be looked upon as what is called Homo Evolutis by some. They have been given many names but I do think that is the most appropriate in this era.

Despite the fact it sounds far-fetched to rational people and having a science-fictional smell I can only agree with this. The evidences are obvious: nowadays almost everyone (at least in the western civilasation) depends on a computer or machine to keep things in order. Our whole social economy is being calculated and maintaind by highly advanced technologies. Not having any technological intellect is almost suicide in this age.



Edited by Dimitri (07/26/09 11:20 AM)
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#27538 - 07/26/09 11:54 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dimitri]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Whether you agree or not with the increase in IQ is of little relevance to the fact that it is happening. The average IQ rises about 3 points every decade and forces IQ test to be re-normalized from time to time to keep the average at 100. It is called the Flynn effect.

New hierarchies to me are not as important as natural hierarchies. I am not charmed by bottom-up systems and logic states that only top-down systems have the potential of being intentional. Bottom-up will always end up corrupting itself. Not to say top-down is free of error but individuals are always more probable to succeed than masses when it comes to goal orientation. An individual has a 100% chance of pursuing his goal. A group of two only a 50% change both goals are similar. A group of 100, well you can do the math and see how the probability disfavors intentionality. So yes, I think natural hierarchies are better, natural in this case in the human sphere.

The technologically advanced human is not as far-fetched or scifi as most might expect. I posted some movies in the past about current research which clearly show the path towards Homo Evolutis.

Beyond the Crisis

Of course most is only at a physical level; the New Man will not be made solely of flesh.

D.

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#27638 - 07/28/09 04:58 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Diavolo]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 318
Loc: SoCal
The ONA seems to have made a slight "come back" from the "causal dead" lately. Behind the "scene-wise" "AL" - this year of fayen - has produced more new MSS than since the dark ages [late 90's].

Myatt seems to have also altered course. He has taken down many of his Islamic sites as of late, and has silently returned to working on his Numinous Way. Like "Long," Myatt has also been busy producing new MSS; on Homo Hubris, Acausal Physics, and such.

Both Myatt and "Long" [assuming "they" are different people] have phased out certain racialist outer forms once used in the past, and both now are making "Numinous Clans," and "Sinister Tribes," the 'new' Method of expressing the ONA exoterically.

I am personally delighted to see Myatt return to the 'helm' after his 'wandering' or 'excursion' into Islam. I'm sure it wasn't a waste of time. But personally I believe Myatt has a very creative mind, and that he should use that creativity to continue to nurture his own unique brain-children - The ONA; The Numinous Way; and Reichsfolk NS, rather that give that creativity to Islam.

It's also good to see some of the Old Guards working behind the scene. Seems as though they are trying to manifest a new Narrative. One which Myatt and Long are actually two different people a la Pointy. It looks like Anton Long "could" very well be a professor Crowthers?

It is also good to see that amongst the actual Thinking intelligencia of Satanism, the ONA is still regarded with some respect and honour. Whether it is dead or alive [or whatever], it's in such minds that the ONA 'exists,' takes root, and through such minds, does it change and evolve into something beyond what it was.


Edited by Caladrius (07/28/09 05:02 PM)
Edit Reason: Make Pretty
_________________________
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#27670 - 07/29/09 12:34 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Caladrius]
bluj666 Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/14/09
Posts: 38
Loc: Tennessee,USA
That would be interesting to see. A new ONA movement with a new set of teachings and pratices. And if Myatt is doing away with the racial aspects of the practices then it would be much more approachable to new comers which would more then likely create a much larger following then that of of the 90's. However i dont see Myatt completely dropping the racial aspects and more then likely saving it for higher ranking members and discretly promping lower level members for it. But if what was just said is true I wouldnt be suprised to see a large movemnet of ONA tribes or what have you spreading worldwide within the year.
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#27673 - 07/29/09 12:45 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: bluj666]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 318
Loc: SoCal
I understated myself. I should have said that 'racialism' has been a practical outer form which - as you imply - is still useful to some extent.

But Myatt's current attitude on race based on his concept of the Immorality of Abstractions [a la Numinous Way & current Reichsfolk & current ONA MSS] posits that 'race' like 'nation' are abstract terms and thus: supra-personal. Such concepts serving only to divert the mind's awareness from it Self onto something abstract.

It's very interesting to read DM's personal writings and see him evolve and grow as a person. His personal journey does influence the ONA through "Anton Long."

Whoever Anton Long is now.

C
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#27689 - 07/29/09 03:24 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Caladrius]
bluj666 Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/14/09
Posts: 38
Loc: Tennessee,USA
Anton Long could possiable be Myatts alter ego rather then a way of conducting the ONA without Myatt being associated with it, if they are in fact the same person.

Now having said that, I was assuming you were talking about racial aspects like those used in the black mass where the Swastika was used and participants hailed hitler rather then satan or any of his other names.

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#27695 - 07/29/09 07:36 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: bluj666]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
BlueJ and others. Honestly, shut the fuck up. You have no idea what you are talking about. At best, you were still watching Sesame Street when Combat 18 members were being sent to prison and the Combat 18 USA was coming into being. Everything you know about ONA is based on something you read on the internet.

Before offering your 'original' thoughts you should sit and listen for a while. If you really feel the need to chime in, please post a question and perhaps one of the grown people here will answer it.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#27705 - 07/29/09 11:23 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: bluj666]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 318
Loc: SoCal
No BJ I wasn't referring to swastikas and black masses for Hitler. Looks like my attempt at clarifying myself didn't work.

I was inferring to such as Fist mentioned: C18; and C88, 'RAHOWA,' and actions of past Initiate of a pre-internet ONA. Un-wyrdful actions which rippled and eventually caused the ONA to 'go underground' for a period to learn from its mistakes - if we may call them that.

I was speaking with an Initiate who was active during this period in Norway who witnessed first hand, the power of Mythos and Narrative Magick, (its power to captivate the mind and emotions of a group of people and cause them to causally express such Narratives) in those days. Unfortunately the old ONA did not seem to know how to harness the force they generated to wyrdfully, aeonically, manifest - productive - ENDS. Resulting in many Initiates and associates going to prison. And the rest is history.

This is not to imply that the medium of the world wide web is a useless tool to the ONA today. We either learn to evolve and adapt with the progression of time and the causal changes it brings, or revert back to snail-mail tactics. It's just unfortunate that the internet is full of chattering, and such things like Homo Hubris lurking in Satanic forums. You catch my drift?


Edited by Caladrius (07/29/09 11:26 AM)
_________________________
.:.gone fishing.:.

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#28027 - 08/07/09 12:30 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: bluj666]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
"That would be interesting to see. A new ONA movement with a new set of teachings and practices."


How synchronous of you to say so.
A revised edition of Naos for 2009 entitled 'Crux' is underway.

ISS,
"One of the grown people of the +O+"
Australian Nexion of the ONA


Edited by Khk (08/07/09 12:35 AM)

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#28109 - 08/07/09 10:18 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Khk]
Azathoth68 Offline
pledge


Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 51
Loc: Denver, CO USA
Are the ONA re-defining themselves? I, for one, am eager to hear their views, because I'm still not sure what they really are.

Edited by Azathoth68 (08/07/09 10:19 PM)

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#28171 - 08/09/09 01:14 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Caladrius]
bluj666 Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/14/09
Posts: 38
Loc: Tennessee,USA
ah my appoligies I wasn't even keeping in mind Maytt's involvement in those groups. I was focusing on the obvious Nazi propaganda within the pages of the ONA's literature. That would also be interesting to see how Maytts relationship with those groups if any would play out now.
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#28175 - 08/09/09 02:08 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Azathoth68]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
The esoteric ONA is always re-designing itself; it is met with an enviroment that does the same, aka the World. It is reactive and splinters off its esoteric magic into exoteric causal forms; each with their own duration and purpose and life of their own.

The alchemical formula of ONA is a basis of Change - that is, to be like Change itself. But this does not imply change for changes sake - but a definite strategy of gradually shifting certain viewpoints, structures and even individuals into a set formation.

A good analogy for this is to consider the ONA as playing a living star game (with very high stakes).

ISS,




Edited by Khk (08/09/09 02:10 AM)

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#29425 - 09/10/09 06:02 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Khk]
Zakary Offline
pledge


Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 75
It is very RHP, the creation of complex spiritual and psychological frame works entertwined with hidden political agendas. One thing I have personally moved away from is structure and external control. Satanism in its purist sense transends the pathetic attempts of man and his gods for control. The universe is in no need of assistance, just live in enlightment. Satan is personified/represented in the Bible in the story of Adams 'fall' or as we might term Adams 'lumination in the black flame'. Satan is the embodiment of unbridled truth, and rebellion until truth is achieved. I do wish those exploring the black dimensions in the path of the ONA enlightenment.
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#29430 - 09/10/09 11:00 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dimitri]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Firstly, I very much encourage these sorts of questions and debate. One of the core tenants of ONA is to prevent stagnation. The best of us comes about when challenged and tested.

 Quote:
For starters: a new kind of human?


For the sake of simplicity, the Nietzschesque 'Ubermensch' comes immediately to mind - as does the Church of the SubGenius' 'Overman.' This requires nothing more than a phase shift in thinking by the practitioner. Of course, this is often easier said than done. Remember in my above post that I pointed out that most people will never have an original thought and are fully incapable of accepting one. Most are locked into memetic thinking and worst yet, these are other people's memes - not ideas of their own construction or even ideas that will directly benefit them. Worst still, most of the memes people walk around with memes that are actually counterproductive to their survival.

For anything you may think of L. Ron Hubbard, he did a good job at covering this sort of counterproductive thinking in "Dianetics" and "Science of Survival." Keep in mind that he wrote these books in the late 40's and early 50's before he went crazy and came up with Scientology. I recommend that any budding Transhumanist read these two works.

 Quote:
The best warrior is the one who has known defeat...


A great deal can and should be learned from failure of any type. Learn from it and learn how to prevent it in the future. Do not repeat the same mistakes. However, this good advice has nothing to do with the doctrine of Death Before Dishonor. The world must be put on notice that you are willing to fight to the death before you yield and inch of ground. And, should you be forced to yield, your opponent will be on notice that they must remain ever vigilant, night and day, because he knows with meta-physical certainty that you will get exact revenge at ten fold the original cost.

This is the doctrine employed by all successful criminal gangs and was the foundation of the Roman Empire. Your enemies must know that you are a determined and relentless adversary. It must be known far and wide that only way to stop you is to kill you and bury the head.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#29473 - 09/12/09 01:13 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Fist]
GillesdeRais Offline
member


Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 141
Bury the head? It sounds like you have become angry and not-willing to accept other jejune points of view! Enjoy it!
_________________________
Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.

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#29476 - 09/12/09 02:08 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: GillesdeRais]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Maw beat me to it. I don't mind if people dislike ONA, think the concept is childish or insane or simply bullshit, as long as they present their criticism in a well written and coherent manner. What you posted here is just a waste of space.

I noticed in your introduction post you mentioning that you read the rules and decided to play by them. Good.
Now learn to adjust to our expectations.

D.

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#29477 - 09/12/09 03:51 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Diavolo]
GillesdeRais Offline
member


Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 141
Respond to what? Bullshit dumbass responses? Work on your own.

Edited by GillesdeRais (09/12/09 03:51 AM)
_________________________
Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.

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#29478 - 09/12/09 03:54 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: GillesdeRais]
GillesdeRais Offline
member


Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 141
There seems to be an overwhelming response to the cheap-ass whatever matters to this board. I hope you suck the degree of readied pole-sitters that matter to you/ Failed douche-bags.! \:\)
_________________________
Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.

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#29479 - 09/12/09 03:59 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: GillesdeRais]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Bu-bye.

D.

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#29487 - 09/12/09 06:21 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
GillesdeRais Offline
member


Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 141
I have failed in the respect that my 'raised' language, IE English, has not been understood by dunce ass bitches that fail to understand both grammar, and syntax. If you want to participate in a forum in which your ideas matter, please create your own board. If I get kicked off of this BB, the Mods were kind enough to realize that I played by the rules.
_________________________
Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.

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#29490 - 09/12/09 06:50 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Diavolo]
GillesdeRais Offline
member


Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 141
I'm not sorry if I seem unafraid to deal with diatribes that are both juvenile and un-repentant. If the MODS are wise enough to validate membership of one who will fight obvious BS in all forms, then I'll be deleted tomorrow, and you can go back to being douches.
_________________________
Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.

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#29492 - 09/12/09 07:13 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
GillesdeRais Offline
member


Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 141
Wow, I'm sorry. I guess I'll have to re-think everything I know and hold dear. If for any other reason, just that you have been so kind and caring about making me re-consider my previous point of view. Sorry if I assumed that logic makes sense. \:\)
_________________________
Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.

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#29497 - 09/12/09 07:33 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
GillesdeRais Offline
member


Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 141
 Quote:
solipsistic

Impressive for a Norwegian. You obviously have an impressive grasp of the English language, even if the meaning of the word doesn't really apply in this particular case. Use definition #2 from Webster's, when you try to include it ;\)
_________________________
Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.

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#29509 - 09/12/09 11:55 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: GillesdeRais]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
 Quote:
...dunce ass bitches...


Ah, an excellent reply! It is both instructive and germane to the topic of the ONA.

In the American Black Ghetto vernacular '______ ass bitches' is a common phrase used to denote disdain. When someone uses it in all seriousness (as opposed to the mocking way I tend to use it) they tip their hand as to their social sensibilities and socio-economic pedigree.

Clearly, GillesdeRais is proudly announcing his 'racial' pride by speaking in his native tongue.

 Quote:
I have failed in the respect that my 'raised' language, IE English, has not been understood by dunce ass bitches that fail to understand both grammar, and syntax.


From a grammatical point of view, this is an extremely poor sentence. Do you even know what syntax means? Are you sure English is your first language? Or, were you perhaps raised around some sort of English dialect? Ebonics perhaps?

If the management has any plans of deleting the GillesdeRais portion of this thread, please hold off until GillesdeRais has had a chance to respond. Culture and 'race' issues are part and parcel to the ONA and this could be quite instructive.

Thanks.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#29511 - 09/12/09 02:10 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Fist]
GillesdeRais Offline
member


Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 141
 Quote:
Culture and 'race' issues are part and parcel to the ONA and this could be quite instructive

Great point, it reminds me of when my grandmother warned me about the evil nature of 'black folks'. The race-issues that have been brought to light in this thread don't really prove anything other than a bored white guy can sound cool. I appreciate your candor. Some day, I plan to rule this board with a Stalinesque fist. No pun intended.
_________________________
Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.

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#29512 - 09/12/09 02:29 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Fist]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2517
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#29513 - 09/12/09 03:21 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: GillesdeRais]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 318
Loc: SoCal
Hiding behind a veil of proper grammar and syntax doesn't change the quality of your thoughts and thinking process, the lack thereof, and it's inherent weakness.

You obviously have your passionate opinions about ONA, which you are entitled to as a free person. But, the questions that should then be asked is: How did you end up with such convictions? Did these convictions of yours about the ONA come from personal experience, empirical apprehension? Or [as I assume] did they come from you reading other people's writings and opinions?

You are an example of what Fist was talking about. What opinions, convictions, and emotions you have for the ONA are other people's memes. Other people's memes which has infected your mind, which you have allowed to alter and change your own being: your own thinking, you own feelings. You are not even your own person. You are not a free thinker. Your opinions about ONA are irrelevant.

Empirical experience - that is direct physical experience - of the application of ONA Methodology; or the attempt; trumps regurgitated opinions, no matter how grammatically erudite such opinions are dressed up in. Simply because in the former, the Subject and Object are in direct contact and association of each other, whereas in the latter the Subject [you] get your ideas and information about the Object [ONA] indirectly from a opinion peddler.

Lastly, Anton Long's grammar and syntax sucks ass, but it is not the dead letter and punctuation that makes a man's thoughts worth something. It is the insights and his method of thinking that made AL what he is to the ONA. And over the 30 years or so, those insights of his and the ONA as a memetic vehicle of transmission of such thoughts, have affected influenced many people. And even many different genres of Satanism and politics.
_________________________
.:.gone fishing.:.

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#29514 - 09/12/09 04:32 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Caladrius]
GillesdeRais Offline
member


Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 141
 Quote:
thinking process

In this case it's 'processes' dumbass. Next time, don't be so accusatory if you cant back up your own ENGLISH GRAMMAR. BTW, thank your mom for me! ;\)
_________________________
Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.

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#29515 - 09/12/09 06:00 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: GillesdeRais]
Bacchae Offline
Satan's White Trash Neighbor
member


Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 438
Loc: los angeles
every ONA thread eventually ends up getting locked. everyone cease the bullshit please, or this one will too.
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#29516 - 09/12/09 10:58 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Caladrius]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
 Quote:
You obviously have your passionate opinions about ONA, which you are entitled to as a free person.


Actually, it provides no value added here and I think the best we can do at this point is simply ignore it. I have yet to read anything it has posted that made any sense.

In other news...

 Quote:
You are an example of what Fist was talking about. What opinions, convictions, and emotions you have for the ONA are other people's memes. Other people's memes which has infected your mind, which you have allowed to alter and change your own being: your own thinking, you own feelings. You are not even your own person.


Correct.

Raymond B. Cattell covers this to some extent in "A New Morality from Science: Beyondism." His approach is to use science to shape morality instead of relying on the revealed knowledge of morality to shape our science.

Satanism is the philosophy of the carnal and the intuitive. We should use our intuition and our passions as our guide until such time that our reason necessitates a change.

 Quote:
Anton Long's grammar and syntax sucks ass...


Oh, I don't know about that. He wrote in a stream of consciousness style much like Crowley and Charles Manson. Either you get it or you don't. If you don't get it than most likely you are not operating on the same 'wavelength' and perhaps that material is not for you.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#29566 - 09/14/09 06:17 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Fist]
Caladrius Offline
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Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 318
Loc: SoCal
School projects complete, and the lectures begins...

For those of us interested in Satanism and the Left Hand Path; in the ONA-David Myatt; Church of Satan-Anton LaVey; and The Temple of Set-Mr. Michael Aquino, from an academic perspective:

Several academicians hailing from several Norwegian universities will be hosting a conference on Satanism in the Modern World, this Nov. 19-20 2009 @ Hotel Augustin, Trondheim, Norway. Fortunately a dame who is a usual here is not on the list of speakers.

For those of us with interest in the ONA and David Myatt two people will be speaking on the topic: Jacob Senholt, and George Sieg. Mr. Sieg studies directly under a Nicholas who is an academic authority on National Socialism. According to my sources Mr. Sieg has just interviewed a certain someone we know as "Anton Long" for his PhD thesis.

I will post a copy of the over view and synopsis of what will be talked about at the conference here. Hopefully it will fit:

Satanism in the Modern World
19-20 November 2009
Book of Abstracts

Jesper Aagaard Petersen,
The Norwegian University of Science and Technology, Norway
(jesper.a.petersen@hf.ntnu.no)

Per Faxneld, Stockholm University, Sweden
(per.faxneld@rel.su.se)Satanism and the Left-Hand Path: Conflicting Ethos?

Considerations on crucial differences in magic and philosophy among 21st century Satanic and Left-Hand Path organizations Alberto Brandi, University of Naples “L’Orientale”, Dept. of Philosophy and Politics, Naples, Italy,
brandi.alberto@fastwebnet.it

This paper wants, from the point of view of an historian of magic and religions, to raise the issue of what I consider a problematic identification, namely the one linking Satanism and the Left-Hand Path in both philosophy and magical practice. The enquiry of my lecture will focus on finding
possible differences in the interpretation of metaphysics and magical practice between these two traditions and therefore arising the question if Satanism as a whole can be considered as a Left- Hand Path (henceforth LHP) philosophy.

Providing a thorough definition of what Satanism and the LHP are is of course difficult, and even if fascinating such a demanding task is beyond the scope of the considerations I will present.

Therefore, to narrow down the field of research I will rely on the written documents of contemporary organizations claiming themselves to be, in different degrees, Satanic and/or belonging to the LHP, only shortly introducing the two categories.

I will mostly refer to Western contemporary organizations which have produced influential literature on the aforementioned subjects, the major ones being the Church of Satan and the Order of the Nine Angles for Atheistic and Theistic Satanism respectively, and the Temple of Set, Dragon
Rouge and the Typhonian Order (formerly known as Typhonian OTO) for the LHP.

The questions behind my investigation therefore are: a) On which ground Satanism – as presented by such organizations – claims to belong to the Left-Hand Path; b) Which are the main differences between the mentioned Satanic organizations and the LHP organizations concerning problems like
evil, the nature of Satan and how such topics are addressed c) How these groups relate to ethics and society; d) How such organizations interpret and approach magical practice.

Following an analysis of the literature produced by the very organizations as well as critical literature, including my own researches on the field, I will present my conclusions, providing the theory that contemporary Satanism can hardly be ascribed to the LHP.

This conclusion will mostly be grounded on fundamental differences in considering the problem of evil, the ethos of members and magical practice. The analyzed Satanic organizations focus their philosophy on actual evil, materialism and antinomism interpreted as antisocial action, while the
examined LHP organizations focus mostly on self-transformation, initiatory magic and an interpretation of evil based on a spiritual plane, formulating in some cases an ethical code which doesn’t necessarily adverse common morality and social behaviour.

Jacob C. Senholt, University of Aarhus, idejcs@hum.au.dk

The Sinister Tradition: Political Esotericism & the convergence of Radical Islam, Satanism and National Socialism in the Order of the Nine Angles The Order of the Nine Angles (ONA) has been active for the last three decades, and has in recent years experienced an increased interest from followers of the so-called ‘Left Hand Path’ (LHP). Even among LHP-practitioners, that are themselves considered notorious by mainstream society, the ONA has long been infamous for its explicit combination of esoteric doctrines of ‘Traditional Satanism’ and far right National Socialist politics. The ONA has with a few exceptions received little attention by scholars in the past, but in recent years ONA-inspired activities, led by protagonist David Myatt, have managed to enter the scene of grand politics and the global War On Terror, with several foiled terror plots in Europe that can be linked to Myatt’s writings and as this paper will document, also directly to the ONA. In addition the general increase of activities and recent formation of several prolific ‘off-spring’ groups make a scholarly examination of this group both necessary and important. The ONA is unique in its overt combination of esotericism and extreme politics (initially National Socialism, but now also Radical Islamism), and several order manuscripts such as Nexion – A Guide to Sinister Strategy,
describe the order’s preferred method of influencing world politics, namely the adaption of political insight roles.

This paper will present what can be identified as a certain ‘Sinister Tradition’ with specific characteristics and with ONA as the main proponent, within the general realm of the LHP and Satanism. Secondly it will examine the ONA, its origins, history and ideas, with a focus on the most
recent developments and the relation to established groups such as the Church of Satan and the Temple of Set. Finally this paper will examine the concept of insight roles according the ONA, as well as provide concrete examples of how the order has influenced the political discourse through both National Socialism and Islam, and look at which perspectives can be gained from this on the general topic of political esotericism.

About the author:
Jacob Christiansen Senholt is a BA in Science of Religion and the History of Ideas, University of Aarhus and an MA in Mysticism and Western Esotericism from the University of Amsterdam with a thesis on the Order of the Nine Angles. J. C. Senholt has for the last few years dealt extensively with the field of western esotericism and politics with papers on ariosophy, political neo-paganism, radical traditionalism and the New Right, and is currently pursuing a Ph.d. at the University of Aarhus, with a thesis on anti-modern thought and religious identity of the European New Right.

Hidden Persuaders and Hidden Hands: Conspiracy Theory in the Writings of Anton LaVey, Asbjørn Dyrendal, IAR, NTNU, asbjorn.dyrendal@hf.ntnu.no

In distinguishing between rationalist and esoteric Satanism, one runs the danger of overestimating the rationalist and scientific elements of laveyan Satanism. Often when looking at LaVey's texts, it seems the very parts calling upon science and research that are most strongly involved in the pursuit of esoteric truths. LaVey's strong focus on how to manipulate one's environment is mirrored by a similar interest in how we are manipulated in everyday life. The satanic magician is but one of the intentional powers seeking influence and hiding his hands in doing so.

This paper takes a closer look at some of the hidden persuaders and hidden hands seen to manipulate man and society by LaVey.

The strange case of Ben Kadosh: A Luciferian pamphlet from 1906 and its current renaissance Per Faxneld, The Department of the History of Religions, Stockholm University, per.faxneld@rel.su.se

It is often claimed there were no systematic attempts at creating a satanic ideology before Anton LaVey founded the Church of Satan in 1966. However, several such examples can in fact be found, and this paper focuses on one of them: the Danish dairy salesman, alchemist, and luciferic freemason Ben Kadosh (Carl William Hansen, 1872-1936).

Kadosh came from a poor working-class background, but managed to acquire a certain level of education all the same and in his early twenties secured a job as a bookkeeper. A few years later he was initiated in the esoteric group L’Ordre Martiniste, the first of a vast number of occult societies he would join in his life. He would go on to hold around 300 (!)
degrees and titles in different Masonic lodges.

In 1906, Kadosh published his pamphlet Den Ny Morgens Gry: Lucifer-Hiram: Verdensbygmesterens Genkomst (NN). This somewhat unstructured and highly eccentric text presents a type of Satanism, which remains both original and confusing to this day. The purpose of the pamphlet is stated to be the rehabilitation and spreading of the cult of Satan/Lucifer. This figure is to Kadosh synonymous with the Greek Pan and the Masonic “master builder” Hiram, the latter sometimes identified with God himself in Masonic lore.

Lucifer is here portrayed as the vessel of God’s divine power, and as the appropriate manifestation for mankind to approach the divinity through. This vessel is a demiurge in the Gnostic sense, but paradoxically still a benevolent entity.

Unlike many others with a sympathy for the Devil around the year 1900, Kadosh was unrelenting, enduring and firm in his convictions: In a national census of 1921, he stated his religious belonging to be “Luciferian”. One of Denmark’s most famous authors, Hans Scherfig, immortalised Kadosh by portraying him in his two novels Idealister (“Idealists”, 1944) and Frydenholm (1962), where a most likely slightly incorrect version of the luciferian’s religious ideas is also given in some detail.

My paper will attempt to show what some of Kadosh’s sources of inspiration were, focusing primarily on the (more or less) scholarly literature of his time concerning the history of Satan and Satanism, for instance the book Satan og Hans Kultus i Vor Tid (“Satan and His Cult in Our Time”, 1902) by Carl Kohl.

In our own time, Kadosh’s writings have enjoyed a small renaissance. A group called Danska Luciferianska Kyrkan?, basing a large part of their system on his ideas, was founded in Denmark in 199, and now has a Swedish chapter as well. The paper will thus also investigate how the teachings of Kadosh are reinterpreted in this new context, discussing how forgotten Satanists from ages past in general can be revived by a young religious milieu looking for predecessors and traditions in order to gain a firmer cultural grounding and increased legitimacy.

SOURCES, SECTS, AND SCRIPTURE: The “Book of Satan” in The Satanic Bible
Eugene V. Gallagher, Connecticut College, evgall@conncoll.edu

Michael Aquino reported in his history of The Church of Satan that in 1987 he had discovered that Anton Szandor LaVey had relied heavily on an earlier text, the pseudonymous Ragnar Redbeard’s Might Is Right, for the substance of The Satanic Bible’s “Book of Satan” and that LaVey had also appended a version of John Dee’s “Enochian Keys” to his text. Since then, the composite nature of The Satanic Bible has largely been taken for granted by scholars, though their evaluations of LaVey’s work have differed.

In a recent survey of Satanism, for example, Chris Mathews renders a harsh verdict, describing the composition of LaVey’s text as haphazard, a “hurried pastiche,” and an act of plagiarism. Mathews concludes that LaVey “stole selectively and edited lightly.”1 Aquino himself had described LaVey’s work as haphazard and asserted that LaVey was not the “true author” of the Book of Satan.2 Nevertheless, Aquino perceives The Satanic Bible as “inspired writing.”3 On his part, James R. Lewis also describes LaVey as borrowing substantially from Might is Right, claiming that LaVey only “added in a few sentences of his own.”4 Lewis does note, however, that The Satanic Bible functions at least as a kind of “quasi-scripture” for many Satanists.

Although Aquino provides a list of passages that LaVey used from Might Is Right in an appendix, neither he nor any other commentator has offered a systematic and detailed account of what LaVey took, changed, and omitted from his source text. By implication, LaVey’s editorial activity is presented as meaningless or simply evidence of his “haphazard” approach.

This paper will argue, however, that LaVey’s editing of his source material was much more than commonly portrayed and conducted in the service of his own ideological agenda. In his creative use of his source material, LaVey demonstrates the same dynamics of appropriation and innovation that Jesper Petersen generally associates with contemporary

1 See Chris Mathews, Modern Satanism: Anatomy of A Radical Subculture (Westport, CT: Praeger, 2009), pp. 53-77, quotations from pp. 77, 65, respectively.

2 Michael Aquino, The Church of Satan, privately published, 6th edition, 2009; p. 54; available at
http://www.xeper.org/maquino; accessed 12 August 2009.

3 Ibid. p. 53.

4 James R. Lewis, “Infernal Legitimacy” in Jesper Aagaard Petersen, ed.,

Contemporary Religious Satanism: A Critical Anthology (Burlington, VT: Ashgate, 2009), pp. 41-58, quotation from p. 49.

Satanism and other movements5 but also the creative use of sources employed in other scriptural texts in the broad Western scriptural tradition, such as the use of Q and Mark by the gospels of Matthew and Luke or the use of J, E, D, and P by the authors of the Pentateuchal narrative. Thus not only the function of The Satanic Bible in the broad Satanic community but also it its mode of composition suggests that it can be considered a modern scripture. This paper will also consider why Aquino and those who have made use of his source-critical work have not attended sufficiently to LaVey’s editorial activity. In Aquino’s case, the motivation seems clear. Anything that would highlight LaVey’s creativity would potentially cast doubt on Aquino’s assertion that his Temple of Set was the more highly evolved successor movement to the Church of Satan. His unmasking of LaVey’s sources for the “Book of Satan” was a part of an overall strategy of de-legitimation rather than a neutral act of historical investigation. Mathews makes similar use of Aquino’s research to buttress his negative evaluation of contemporary Satanism. Many of the comments about the composite nature of The Satanic Bible need to be read as part of a contentious discourse both about sectarianism within the orbit of the Church of Satan and broader attempts to de-legitimate socially stigmatize Satanism in general.

What’s in a name? Theoretical and Methodological Musings on the Scholarly Use of the Term Satanism. Kennet Granholm, Åbo Akademi University, kennet.granholm@abo.fi

The Shakespeare-quote in the title of this abstract proposes that a thing will retain its essential qualities whatever it is called. In scholarly discourse, however, maintaining such a position is very problematic. “Names” do in themselves contain connotations, the number of which often depends on their relative popularity and familiarity in social contexts. The thought that
scholars would be able to remain completely unaffected by general connotations of a term, or be able to portray value-laded terms in ways which will make them be understood neutrally by the reader, is naïve. The word “cult” is a good example. From having been a sociological term for a distinct type of religiosity and religious organization, it was adopted by opponents of unorthodox alternative religion and given more or less the meaning “bad religion”. This connotation is difficult to escape, and is the reason why sociologists of religion have more or less abandoned the use of the term.

Satanism, of course, is a value-laded term which often has very negative connotations among non-scholars. When the term is brought up, it is also very common that people will have a general, and ultimately false, understanding of what is meant. Satanism will be seen as having to do with child and animal sacrifice, evil, deviance, fascism etc. even though the scholar shows that this is not the case. A situation where the term Satanism could be divorced from any pejorative connotations is difficult to imagine.

I have chosen to use the originally emic term Left-Hand Path to denote the milieu of “dark spirituality” that many Satanist philosophies and organizations are a part of. The term has the benefit of being fairly unknown to the general population, other than in occultist circles of course, and therefore lacks many of the automatic negative connotations the term Satanism brings up. However, and more importantly from a theoretical and methodological standpoint,
5 Jesper Aagaard Petersen, “Introduction: Embracing Satan” in Petersen, ed., Contemporary Religious Satanism, pp. 1-24; see pp. 13f. the terms highlight different aspects. The term Satanism highlights the figure of Satan, and an increasingly dubious collection of other mythological figures that are meant to be in some way analogous to the Christian devil. The term Left-Hand Path, on the other hand (pun unintended), highlights specific discursive strategies and practices – primarily those of antinomianism and ideological individualism. It could be argued that the choice of the figure of Satan in the original Church of Satan is in itself based on an antinomian ethos. Clearly, though still conjuring up negative sentiments, the figure of Satan has become too familiar and overused to be of sufficient value in antinomian practices. When using the term Satanism, the scholar then needs to take increasingly wide and problematic leaps to conclude that figures such as the Old Norse Odin, the Hindu Shiva, or the Zoroastrian/Parsi Ahriman would have some essential similarities with Satan.

Another term I would like to discuss is “post-Satanism”. I present the term in my article in the anthology Contemporary Religious Satanism, but downplay its analytical value. I would like to change my positions somewhat. When dealing with the methodological and terminological issues that the scholarly use of the term Satanism brings up, this term is actually very useful.

It highlights both historical continuity and change in realm of “dark spirituality”, while avoiding and addressing major issues that more typologically oriented and definitive categorizations have.

Satanic Witchcraft: A Study in the Creation of a Tradition
Fredrik Gregorius, Malmö University, fredrikgregorius@yahoo.se

The following presentation will look into the development of witchcraft as a discourse within modern Satanism, like chaos-gnosticism, and the rhetorical function such a discourse can have for the formulation of a concept of ”traditional Satanism” as a claim of legitimacy in opposition to other forms of Satanism, especially LaVeyan.

Looking at the way witchcraft is used in contemporary esoteric forms of Satanism and related forms of Left Hand Path groups will not only illustrate the way cultural terms can be reinvented and used in a variety of ways but also how the trend to embrace of a non-symbolic approach to demonology and witchcraft is used to claim authenticity. The following presentation will argue that the trends we see today in Satanism are a reflection of a larger
trend within contemporary esoteric and occult movements.

Author: Lloyd K. Keane, Ph.D.
Affiliation: Carleton University (non-academic staff) Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Email: lloyd_keane@carleton.ca
Title: Set as Dark Self An Analytical Psychological Interpretation of the Figure of Set as found in the Public Documents of the
Temple of Set.

Body: This paper will begin by highlighting how the figure of Set is defined and represented in the Temple of Set’s publically available documents. In general, and at this early stage of research, the “Prince of Darkness” is seen by the author as solitary and dynamic force of psychological change and transformation. Following this initial review the paper will briefly outline Jung’s notion of the Self focusing specifically on the notion of the dark, “violent”, and numinous aspect of the archetype of the Self as well as briefly touching on how Jung viewed the figure of Satan (Jung saw Set as being an earlier version of the figure of Satan). The figure of Set can be interpreted as reflecting, to some degree, what Jungian and Post-Jungian thought refers to as the archetype of the Self. Rather than simply representing basic egoic consciousness this paper will claim that Set can be read as representing a link between consciousness and the depths of the collective unconscious. In the capacity of archetypal image, Set, as understood by the Temple of Set, is simultaneously a potential source of destructive impulses, at least form the perspective of the ego, as well as representing a means toward psychological maturation (what Jung called the process of individuation).

Tolkienian and Tolkien inspired black metal
Tommy Kuusela, History of Religions, Stockholm University, tommy.kuusela@rel.su.se

In this paper I will discuss the role of Tolkien related imagery used by black metal bands. Tolkien’s fictional world Middle Earth plays an important role for many black metal bands, their use of the evil powers from the catholic author’s fantasy world is fairly common in the name the bands or artists chooses as well as in their lyrics, often mixed up with satanic imagery and lyrics. For example; the infamous Norwegian Varg Vikernes, better known as his artist name Count Grishnack, from the one man band Burzum and the controversial black metal band Gorgoroth both uses names taken directly from Tolkien’s fiction. Grishnak is the name of an orc; Burzum in black speech means 'darkness' and Gorgoroth is a plateau in the land of Mordor meaning 'Great dread' in the elvish language Sindarin.

Black metal, with the evil image and the use of satanic lyrics is naturally inconsistent with Tolkien’s personal world view. In his works there are evil powers at play, but we must not forget that we’re still in a fantasy world which Tolkien described as a sub-creation, that is when an author creates a believable world. Even though Tolkien as a professor in Anglo
Saxon made this world realistic and impressive, partly based on his use of languages, history, legends and myths, it’s still only fiction, believable fiction but still not reality.

The aim of this paper is to explore why black metal bands have chosen Tolkien as a medium to strengthen their satanic image, and to explore the concept of evil in Tolkien’s Middle Earth.

I will also try to put together a compilation of black metal bands influenced by the works of J.R.R. Tolkien. This will hopefully conceptualize in what extent Tolkien influences the black metal scene, and hopefully by analyzing the choice of names/and or lyrics that will also give me some kind of conceivable tool to try to understand why Tolkien matters to this genre of underground metal music.

In order to discuss whether different bands express different concepts and ideals drawn from Tolkien I will present material chosen from a few bands and try to compare their lyrics with the works by Tolkien, and try to understand what it is that I so alluring for the “evil” black metal bands in his works.

The Devil’s Demographics
James R. Lewis, DuPaul University, jrlewis@rocketmail.com

At the beginning of the present decade, I conducted a survey that gathered basic demographic data from 140 self-identified Satanists. My findings initially appeared in article form in 2001 under the title “Who Serves Satan? A Demographic and Ideological Profile.” This past summer, I sent out a more ambitious questionnaire to determine if and how the Satanic subculture had evolved, as well as to gather other kinds of information. To date, over 200 Satanists have completed the second survey. Though members of both samples were predominantly white males raised in Christian households, the average age of respondents rose from mid-twenties to thirty. Partly as a consequence of higher average age, the new sample exhibited more diversity – in terms of having a broader range of educational backgrounds, an increased likelihood of being a parent, and the like. Similarly, while the majority of respondents to the new survey were still broadly in the LaVeyan tradition, a far greater percentage than in the old survey professed some variety of Theistic Satanism. When contrasted with the first questionnaire, the picture that emerges from the second questionnaire could be summarized as ‘Little Nicky grows up.’

The Resurrection of a Fallen Angel. Satan in 19th Century (Counter) Culture
Ruben van Luijk, Faculty of Catholic Theology, University of Tilburg, The Netherlands, R.B.vanluijk@uvt.nl

In the nineteenth century, substantial parts of Europe’s cultural elite turned away from Christianity. One of the more remarkable results of this attitude was a growing sympathy for Satan, who from being feared or scorned as an object of loathing, came to be celebrated by prominent Romantic poets, lauded by novelists and political activists, and honoured by historians. None of these intellectuals who sung the praise of Satan were practising Satanism in a religious sense. For this reason, they are sometimes designated as ‘Literary Satanists’ by the historians of Literature. Nevertheless, the figure of the fallen angel expressed important themes of antichristian discourse for them; themes that have exerted a profound influence on the religious Satanism of the last and present century. Each of these themes reversed and/or gave new meaning to an traditional attribute of the ‘Christian’ Satan.

We can discern three dominant thematic clusters:

- First and foremost: Satan as Rebel. In traditional Christian theology, Satan’s fall was associated with rebellion against divine authority. The philosophes and the French Revolution had given ‘rebellion’ a new, positive meaning for substantial parts of Europe’s intellectual elite. Schock already has shown how political controversies in the aftermath of the French Revolution helped to shape Literary Satanism. Satan as noble champion of political and individual freedom would remain an important theme throughout the nineteenth century.

- Secondly, Satan as a torch bearer of Science. In its avatar of the Serpent, Satan had induced Man to eat the forbidden fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. The nineteenth century glorified science and the seeking of knowledge. For some, Satan came to symbolize the heroic pursuit of knowledge beyond the boundaries set by faith or tradition. Satan, Bearer of Light, thus
became a herald of human progress.

- Lastly, Satan as patron of Sex and Nature. Traditionally, Satan and his demons were strongly associated with the vice of lust. In the Christian iconography of the devil, moreover, elements of pagan nature gods as Pan and the satyrs had been incorporated. In the nineteenth century, these attributes were revaluated in a positive way. Satan was used by some to
represent nature, vitalism, passionate love, sexuality, and femininity vis à vis a Christian heritage strongly condescending of these elements.
Elements of these three clusters of meaning can be found in the work of Blake, Shelley, Byron, De Vigny, Proudhon, Bakunin, Hugo, and Michelet, among others. By the end of the nineteenth century, they had grown into a classic set of topoi that was transposed as such into the next century. In this paper, I will describe the emergence of this threefold reappraisal of
Satan and analyse the historical circumstances which contributed to its rise.
“Smite him hip and thigh”: Satanism, violence and transgression

Jesper Aagaard Petersen, IAR, NTNU, aagaardp@hf.ntnu.no

Widespread discourses on Satanism associate Satan and Satanists with violence, transgression and death. Today, many commentators and agents in the mainstream media, education and social services circulate a Christian or theological model of Satanism, where Satan and Satanism is understood as an inversion of the good, the beautiful and the true, often in a secular and psychologized version connecting Satanism with delinquency, criminality and mental illness. Less often, but still prevalent, are discourses associating Satan with rebellious pride, refined taste, carnality and power in popular and subcultural contexts. In general, both associations stem from the same source, namely positive or negative interpretations of the Christian heritage.

In contrast to the mythical Satanists of these demonological models, real Satanists come in many shapes and sizes, but violence and criminal acts are extremely rare and always associated with individuals and small groups living out the mythical frame. Most organized satanic groups and influential spokespersons define Satanism as a practical way of life utilizing transgression as a deconditioning of repressive sociality, hence strengthening the individual's positive self-image through controlled antinomianism. In addition, Satanism is a religion of the self as an adversary to herd mentality and group-think; the Satanist should question all things and transgress as well as transform through art, commentary and action that which does not work. The important point is how to discern the actual violence of serial killers and marginalized teens using Satanism as an alibi from the symbolic violence of Satanists like Marilyn Manson, Boyd Rice and Anton LaVey.

In essence, modern Satanism is a stratified cultural context, where values of aesthetics, ethics and transcendence are intertwined with judgments (and meta-judgments) of taste, behavior and authority formulated by dominant and marginal voices with strategic goals in mind. What is significant here is not only the image of Satan presented, but the use to which it is put and the connections made.

Firstly, the paper will describe the dominant formulations of modern religious Satanism and their stance on violence and transgression. Here, actions transcend social boundaries to redress the balance and express the self. Secondly, I will analyze selected articulations of "symbolic violence", "aesthetic terrorism" and "transformational psychodrama" that are used by satanic groups and individuals to question and challenge the self-evident. The main focus is two central aspects of this satanic project, namely the construction of individuality, seen as a “Conscious Life Design”, and the practice of antinomianism, understood through transgression. They are interrelated and can be understood through the lens of the “aestheticization of everyday life”.

”God is caught in Hell, so it is better to believe in the Devil”: Conceptions of Satanists and sympathies for the Devil in Early Modern Sweden

Mikael Pettersson, National Graduate School of History, Department of History, Lund University, Mikael.Pettersson@hist.lu.se

The term ”Satanists” was occasionally used by early modern Swedish theologians to denote the proverbial servants of Satan. In certain contexts this usage seems to have been of a clearly derogatory character, but in others it was undoubtedly meant to imply individuals believed to be in actual league with the Devil or even to belong to a form of satanic religious cult. But were there really ”Satanists” in early modern Sweden in any meaningful sense of the word?

Through the process referred to as demonization, a strategy applied already by the medieval church, the often ambiguous supernatural entities of early modern popular culture were frequently identified with the Devil and his demons. This process did not work in only one direction, however. The Devil himself sometimes came to be endowed with traits akin to the more multifaceted nature spirits of the popular mind. Hence, one may speak of alternative traditions concerning the Devil, in which it was possible to conceive of him as a helper or a kind of familiar spirit, even though he simultaneously appears to have retained most of his adversarial role as the enemy of God. Under certain conditions people voiced quite blatant sympathies for the Devil, and even held that befriending Satan was better and wiser than praying to God. There are also several written pacts with the Devil preserved in early modern Swedish court records which – although presumably often made under quite desperate conditions – further corroborate this motif. In connection with popular magic and witchcraft, there are further hints of certain ritualistic methods for summoning the Devil. In these contexts are also expressed views and words which suggest that the Devil could be part of more or less coherent unofficial worldviews.

Such blasphemous speech and forbidden actions were, perhaps not surprisingly, often linked to individuals perceived as ”outsiders” in several respects. Not only alleged witches and sorcerers, but also people accused of thievery, robbery, whoredom, murder and other transgressions – if not apprehended frequently dwelling in the wilderness outside the local village communities – were particularly conceived of as being in league with Satan. Indeed, there is evidence to suggest that they themselves, having already been marked as deviants or sinners, sometimes turned to the Devil as a kind of patron or helper of the rebellious or perhaps of those feeling unjustly treated by the community and the authorities. Such individuals, when interrogated by the courts, occasionally reported communicating with Satan, and at times even sleeping with him or magical entities in some way connected to him.

Thus, while there is no evidence of any organized or even loosely knit ”Satanism” or ”satanic cult” in early modern Sweden, one may – in certain respects – speak of the existence of a form of ”individual Satanists” and possibly a ”satanic discourse” partially outside the boundaries of established religion and the framework of learned demonology. The present study is a brief examination of the aforementioned motifs and conceptions, based primarily on a few particularly revealing court records and theological commentaries.

Angular Momentum: From Traditional to Progressive Satanism in the Order of Nine Angles. George Sieg, EXESESO (Exeter Centre for the Study of Esotericism), ahuramithras@gmail.com

In the last few decades, the Order of Nine Angles has become notorious in both the context of the Left-Hand Path, and radical movements, for its advocacy of human sacrifice and its apparent alignment to National Socialism and far-right terrorism, as well as the association of David Myatt (generally believed to be, pseudonymously, its leader or former leader, Anton Long) with radical Islam and the promotion of “martyrdom” (suicide) operations.

Esoterically, it has until the past year identified itself exclusively as a “Traditional” Satanism. Its membership, acknowledged to be small, has been suggested by detractors or sceptics to be nearly nonexistent.

These consistencies seem to have changed with the advent of ONA spinoffs such as the Tempel ov Blood in the United States and the Temple of THEM in Australia, both of which depart to a greater or lesser degree from the system promoted by the ONA. The Tempel ov Blood seems to retain the system, and the association with far-right extremism, but expands it in the direction of vampirism. The Temple of THEM, by contrast, encourages antinomian exploration of the extremes, rather than far-right extremism specifically, and has expanded the system into various speculative and theoretical arenas of esoteric interest.

The most significant evolution of the system, however, has occurred in a context of youthful American innovation, presenting itself as a new form of Satanism not only inspired by but officially within the affiliation of the ONA, identifying as one of its “Nexions.” This Nexion, named the “White Star Acception” and based in Oakland, California, but apparently progenating a number of daughter Nexions also in the United States, was founded by two girls in their early twenties who have coined the term “Progressive Satanism” to describe its methodology. Significantly, they openly purport to have syncretised the methods of the ONA with other work of David Myatt produced under his own name, including his pagan, apolitical “Numinous Way” and his communitarian “Reichsfolk” concept, as well as presenting an interview with Anton Long in which their innovations receive his direct approval and endorsement.

The variations introduced by the White Star Acception, however, are considerable. Its term “Acception” is derived from Freemasonry, as some of its members are also Freemasons. Masonic imagery is included in the initiation rites of the Acception, along with the use of Hebrew terms and the designation of profane, non-Satanic persons as “goyim.” This use of Judaeo-Masonic imagery is not merely an aesthetic departure from the Traditional Satanism of the ONA: the WSA repudiates biological racism. One of its founders is half Cambodian, and both Latino. Eschewing folkish National Socialism, the WSA promotes a “sinister tribalism” bearing more in common with gang culture, also an interest of its founders, whose rites include not only human culling, but gang-style initiations requiring assault, rape, theft, and other criminally antinomian acts. According to their own claims, however, the most “Progressive” aspect of their Satanism is its emphasis on the “sinister feminine,” and they maintain that despite considerable differences, their system aims at the grand “aeonic” goal of Galatic Imperium which is the ultimate aim of the ONA.

The Making of Satanic Collective Identities in Poland
Rafal Smoczynski, Polish Academy of Sciences, rafalsmoczynski@yahoo.com

While there have been produced many studies on the role of various interest groups in stirring anti-satanic moral panics there is a little systematic knowledge on the Satanic folk devils’ attempts to reject stigmatization, and consequently there is a lack of elaborations explaining
how this “fighting back strategy” shapes the collective identities of Satanists. The proposed paper seeks to contribute to both moral panics scholarship and the studies on Satanism in the modern world and examines the non-passive role of the satanic folk devils’ discourses in
Poland after 1990.

From the discourse theory perspective (as elaborated by Laclau and Mouffe) that the very possibility of society is conditioned by its intrinsic antagonism the proposed paper focuses on the discursive construction of satanic collective identities in the context of the anti-new religious movements moral panic in Poland. Satanists’ discursive practices are meant as ideological articulations that organize the field of intelligibility of collective identities and social interactions. This insight is founded on the social ontological principle formulated by Gramsci who claimed that ideology resonates with people, converting individuals into groups, provides them with the sense of the common interests and introduces interpretative schemes for grasping the meaning of social reality.

Applying discourse theory approach may be of particular value when we consider the present scholarship on moral panics which shows that the original model of this concept was formulated in a homogenous moral culture of the 1960s and therefore constrained the analysis on active role of the folk devils. Later formulations asserted that model should pay more attention to the interactions between moral panics entrepreneurs and folk devils’ discursive strategies who try to overcome stigmatization. The proposed paper attempts to develop these insights and analyze how in a context of growing functional differentiation of Polish society the collective identities, legitimacy strategies and variety of emancipatory discourses were contested and negotiated among the Satanists.

Additionally, the proposed paper asserts that the emergence of satanic collective identities in Poland in their empirical variety was partly conditioned by the state of anomie during the period of social change in the post-communist country. The state of anomie has revealed itself
as a dislocation in which existing narrative frameworks have lost their efficiency in providing ideological legitimacies for the subject positions. The proposed paper will attempt to show how satanic discourses have generated re-articulation strategies that aimed at suturing effects of a dislocation. In doing so it is important to delimit the field of emergence of the Satanists’ ideology which functioned as a surface of inscription for collective identities. While establishing the hegemonic nodal points which have been resonating with the Polish Satanists the stress will be put especially on emancipatory themes which seemingly functioned as crucial signifiers in the Polish context. While satanic discourses have become globalized there are considerable differences in the structures of discourses and social interactions within the satanic communities in the contemporary world, thus exploring the meaning of local peculiarities remains essential in this field.


Edited by Caladrius (09/14/09 06:26 PM)
Edit Reason: counted wrong...
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#29639 - 09/16/09 01:13 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Caladrius]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
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Jesus H. Christ! You couldn't post a link with a short explanation? I have porn to look at. I don't have time to read a 7 page dissertation. I doubt many others do either.
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#29697 - 09/17/09 07:49 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: fakepropht]
Diavolo Offline
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I did read it and it was fairly interesting, even if the information itself was a bit brief. It shows what goes on in general Satanism and how outsiders perceive it. At the same time it shows that what was (or is) not taken too serious by many, is having a larger impact than expected.

Hey, I'm a nerd, I read 500 page things too. ;\)

D.

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#29702 - 09/17/09 10:12 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Diavolo Offline
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I read bits of their work now and then when I'm browsing all things satanic online. I guess some of them might be sincere but observing Satanism from the outside in is a bit like an alien watching traffic from great heights. After a while they'll probably figure out some of the pattern those metal boxes follow but they can never fully understand what goes on until they participate in it themselves.

And at times I am amused how after months of research they seem to conclude something that any serious satanist could have told them in five minutes. On other occasions they just don't seem to get it and continue to have ideas which are outdated at least. Now, we have to admit, Satanism is rather complex and the fact that it is in constant change, combined with a huge amount of information and ideas that grouped together during the last decade, mostly thanks to the interconnections of the Internet, that all makes Satanism in its diversity a bit difficult to grasp; even to many inside Satanism. But they're, like you said, not solving our questions, or trying to bring us answers. They are mainly trying to understand something which at some levels will always be in the dark for them.

We ourselves however know pretty well what we are about.

D.

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#29705 - 09/17/09 11:35 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Caladrius Offline
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According to my source - who was corresponding with Mr. Sieg - George Sieg is a self described "practitioner" of the Sinister Way of the ONA for 7 years and personally admires Myatt.

I also made an inaccurate statement in haste in an above post. Mr. Sieg has NOT as of yet interviewed Anton Long of ONA. He seemed excited over getting connections to the man sometimes known as "Anton Long." Mr. Sieg wanted to meet Myatt in person and was turned down for the time being.
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#30034 - 09/25/09 03:28 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Caladrius]
Caladrius Offline
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ONA News:

Not only is the ONA alive and well in Germany... it killed somebody... whoo hoo! Too bad the two responsible for the ritual murder were not the most intelligent of ONA associates. It's the deed that counts. Props to Manuela and Daniel. Satan is happy with his court jester indeed. Here a link to the article 2 ONA Associates, 1 knife, and a friend.

One only got 15 years in jail, the other got only 13 years in the ward. Those European Satanists sure know how to party.

I have to quote something Daniel said in court here because it's too funny:

-!Quote Article!-

Daniel said he had merely been a tool of the devil. "If you run someone over with a car, you don't prosecute the car," he said at one point.

-!End Quote!-


Edited by Caladrius (09/25/09 03:34 PM)
Edit Reason: added quote
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#30035 - 09/25/09 03:47 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Caladrius]
Jake999 Offline
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This relates to a case back in 2001 in Bochum, Germany and from the accounts I was able to find had nothing to do with the ONA. Crazy fuckers are crazy fuckers and can't be ascribed to any group simply because of the area in the world in which they play out their stupidity.
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#30036 - 09/25/09 04:30 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Jake999]
Caladrius Offline
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What a party pooper, no?

This is an example of the difference between what is the ONA and what is your generic variety Satanism. What's the difference?

-!Quote Karen Armstrong!-

Most cultures believed that there were two recognized ways of arriving at truth. The Greeks called them mythos and logos. Both were essential and neither was superior to the other; they were not in conflict but complementary, each with its own sphere of competence. Logos (”reason”) was the pragmatic mode of thought that enabled us to function effectively in the world and had, therefore, to correspond accurately to external reality. But it could not assuage human grief or find ultimate meaning in life’s struggle. For that people turned to mythos, stories that made no pretensions to historical accuracy but should rather be seen as an early form of psychology; if translated into ritual or ethical action, a good myth showed you how to cope with mortality, discover an inner source of strength, and endure pain and sorrow with serenity…

-!End Quote!-

Boring Logos is for the librarian and book worm. Most of humanity's imagination is turned on by Mythos. One's imagination influences one's emotions. One's emotions governs one's actions. One's actions manifests as causal results.

Where Mythos gradually transmutes into causal [real world results] by the power it has to captivate the imaginations of people. Logos only gives birth to debates and philosophical discussions.


Edited by Caladrius (09/25/09 04:33 PM)
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#30055 - 09/26/09 08:04 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Caladrius]
Diavolo Offline
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You mention some interesting points here.

We have a local saying that it doesn't matter if a story is true, as long as it is nicely told. Many people think story-telling or Mythos is amusement only but fail to see the potential of it. The cold naked truth is interesting to get to the core of something and in that brings knowledge, but stories trigger insights in people that at times can't be gained by Logos. How many people out there aren't affected by books or movies and have a shift in thinking just by being submitted to those make-up stories? The Greeks were not the only ones that used Mythos to transfer wisdom to other people or the next generations. I don't think there is one culture out there that hasn't got that tradition or at least a somewhat evolved form of it. In ours it is continued into books, movies and to a degree music.

I personally walk the middle road between Logos and Mythos. Logos is a tool that is valuable in its context but at other levels nothing gave me more insights in all things human, including myself, than the pre-christian European myths or works like the ones of Homer.

To me as a Westerner, there is the very root of my being.

D.

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#30066 - 09/26/09 01:30 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Diavolo]
Caladrius Offline
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You're very kind to Logos my friend \:\)

I was watching this nature show about this big bird that is so lazy it lays its eggs in another bird's nest of different species then leave. The babies then hatch, and the dumb Host mother and father bird just feeds them, not knowing the babies aren't even theirs. And these babies will kick and shove the natural eggs out of the nest, to the ground. This is Logos.

Logos says the material universe is dead and a cosmic accident, and everything else is pushed out of the nest. Logos says nothing can travel faster than light, and all other theories are pushed out of the nest to die. The worst part being that the theory that Logos endorses becomes deified and pretends itself to be fact: a thing to uphold with passionate conviction. You stop thinking when Conviction happens.

Something else I dislike greatly about Logos is that: Logos measures everything with its own self. Reason measures everything with reason. Not just any reason, the reason which has come into being in the mind that gives Logos life.

We each, as individual minds, develop our faculty of reason based on not what we have read in a text book, but on what we have experienced in life. So, if I have never seen a bird fly through a wall, based on that observation, I reason that: Birds being physical things, can't fly through walls, ergo nothing physical can fly through walls. Then when someone says that they witness something walk through a wall, I use what I have come to BELIEVE as reason to judge this person's personal experience, with my own personal experience.

Reason - to me - is limiting. The very fact that something can be labeled as "irrational" has set a limit, and has pushed most of the unobservable universe out the nest of possibilities.

I believe it was Einstein that said he would have never come up with the Theory of Relativity had he remained confined to the Reasoning of his academic peers of his time. They told Einstein that others have tried and have failed because it was impossible and beyond reason. Which it was. When you set something beyond the limits of Logos, that something becomes an impossibility; i.e.: "antigravity."

But Einstein went ahead anyways. He states that he didn't rely on Reason or logical thinking. He just sat on his arm chair, and like a boy, just day dreamed, and used his imagination, picturing himself flying on a shaft of light. From that he made the impossible possible. Later, when he was asked how he did it and and how he did all that he did, Einstein said that he is retarded literally. Retarded because he never outgrew his boyish curiosity and ability to daydream; when his peers have mentally grown into know it all text book academicians. [I paraphrased that].

Logos by itself has never done anything great, unless one considers text books and encyclopedias to be the Grand Triumph of our species. Was it Logos that drove Alexander the Great, the Russian Slavs, and Mongols to carve out the largest empires known to mankind? No, it was Mythos. The Mythos that captivated these men's imaginations, and what Mythos they imbued in their army and people's minds.

Was it Logos that drove Hitler and the German people of their time to nearly take over the world? No, far from it. Most of the memes that went into creating the Third Reich was pure lunacy: Mythos.

It was Mythos that built the Gothic Cathedrals in Europe, not Logos. It was Mythos that built the Great Pyramids in Egypt, not Logos. Mythos is the CEO. It's the one that says: "This is what I want." Logos is Management. It comes later and says: "Yes sir, and this is how it will be done." That's the order it should be for human progression and evolution.

It was Mythos and the imagination of a country - or two countries and a little competition - that said: "We want to go to the moon." Only afterwards did Logos come and say: "Yes sir, we'll figure out how to make that irrational impossibility a possibility sir."

Mythos and Imagination is that aspect of our humanness - perhaps the very thing that makes us different from other animals - that drives us to reach and grasp for the impossible. And in doing so, there is evolution and progression.

We run into trouble as a species when we banish Mythos. When we defile imagination, dreams, belief in the impossible as childish fantasy. And when we set Logos by itself on a throne. Deified Reason is just another word for Dogma. For orthodoxy. For the way things are now and the way things should be and anything else is Heresy. This deification of Logos gives rise to stagnation. It might parade itself in the name of science but so did the dogma of the Dark Ages parade itself in the guise of religion: an institute that supposedly benefits mankind.

I think it's one of the things that made LaVey's Satanism, as he presents it in the Satanic Bible so attractive. He gave a place for Mythos and Imagination: in the Decompression Chamber.

Just for a moment, the Satanist lets go of Logos and gives life to Mythos. In incantations to mythic beings from Abaddon to Yen Lo Wang. For a moment the Satanist gives life to his dreams and visions in psychodramas, where his desires are scripted and enacted. In hopes of harnessing the Power of Myth [a great book by Joseph Campbell BTW]. Because, as history has shown, Mythos has a way of becoming real, of actualizing, of influencing, of manifesting, and materializing. And LaVey called this magic. Which it is: the act of changing one's causal reality according to one's will.

All the ONA has done it turn the whole world into a decompression chamber, profane life becomes the psychodrama, and the audience is the Mundane.

It is unfortunate that other breeds of Satanists: who have read the Satanic Bible and have familiarized themselves with LaVey's concept of Satanic Magic, cannot recognize Satanic Magic when they see it. The only difference is that the LaVeyans and Moderns keep their magic inside a box: their closet or bedroom which is the chamber; whereas ONA has made the world its stage.

So it becomes confusing to them when we [ONA] walk around with a handful of Dark Gods, and when our supposed leader, or whatever he is: Myatt, has become Muslim. Never realizing that perhaps Myatt is living a psychodrama, perhaps to help manifest a dream he has?

Lastly, if it shhould be ever said: Yes, be that as it may; but what manner of magic, or what is ONA trying to manifest by stories of murder? The simple answer: A magician never tells.
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#30069 - 09/26/09 01:54 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Caladrius]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Sure, the dreamer precedes the thinker. Much of the technology we now enjoy was dreamed up by science fiction writers past.

But what you seem to be saying is that you can achieve actual results through dreaming. That's just silly. Through reason is how actual knowledge is accumulated. Through reason alone.

Einstein did not somehow create Relativity theory through the power of his own mind or magic or whatever it is you are implying, he dug it out through hard, boring, mundane science. Pure 'logos'. You see 'logos' is where things here in the real world actually get done. The mundane, carnal, animal world in which we live.

Of course, dreaming, imagination, or 'Mythos' does certainly occupy a very important place in society and within our psychology as well. It is true that no new innovations or manifestations of existing technology, both physical and mental could come about without it. And what would magic be without mythology?

But on the other hand, where would the middle east be without it?


In summary, reason and logic are balanced by fantasy and imagination, but the if you like getting results the former should be running the show.
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#30071 - 09/26/09 03:14 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Caladrius Offline
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Loc: SoCal
This is to no particular person:

John 1:1

-!Quote the Holy Bible!-

Young's Literal Translation
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;

ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 1:1 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Ed. with Diacritics
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

-!End Quote!-

How does one react when someone dethrones Logos from it's sanctified throne?
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#30072 - 09/26/09 03:20 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Caladrius]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Quote:

How does one react when someone dethrones Logos from it's sanctified throne?

I will let you know the moment I hear of anything of importance being accomplished through 'magical' thinking. So far it is and has been boring old reason doing all the work.

What is it you are trying to say here? Is this some lame attempt at apologetics?
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#30074 - 09/26/09 04:01 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Caladrius]
Dimitri Offline
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I have yet another quote for you...

 Originally Posted By: The Satanic Sins
1. Stupidity—The top of the list for Satanic Sins. The Cardinal Sin of Satanism. It’s too bad that stupidity isn’t painful. Ignorance is one thing, but our society thrives increasingly on stupidity. It depends on people going along with whatever they are told. The media promotes a cultivated stupidity as a posture that is not only acceptable but laudable. Satanists must learn to see through the tricks and cannot afford to be stupid.
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#30084 - 09/27/09 02:43 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dimitri]
Diavolo Offline
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Dimitri, if you have nothing valuable to add to this debate, please refrain from replying at all. It's not because people have a different view upon a subject that it is therefor stupid. This argument is too interesting to start throwing mud simply because you don't agree. Counterarguments can have more depth.

Caladrius does touch some interesting concepts here even if the hardcore logicians oppose them.

D.

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#30088 - 09/27/09 03:19 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Diavolo Offline
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I have to disagree on a couple of points Maw.

In my opinion Einstein didn't change the way people perceive reality as much as he changed reality itself. I know it sounds irrational but the way we perceive reality is consciousness-driven and all changes in consciousness, which is defined by knowledge to a degree, is an effective change of reality. Of course we can debate that reality was like that before we saw it as such but it is a moot point. What you don't see does not exist. Once someone proves Einstein wrong, he alters reality again. This happens at all levels.

I find the idea that Mythos is the essential catalyst a rather valid one. Logos is a tool. Look at mathematics as an example. In itself it is a pretty sterile and useless concept. But when applied in architecture or space conquest as an example it is magnificent. Still, it will only shine when it is used to create something that is driven by an idea or a dream if you like. It's not that science or reason should be vilified but it is merely a tool. In that, it comes secondary to Mythos which is a drive. Once you are driven, you take the tools you need.

D.

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#30090 - 09/27/09 03:44 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Caladrius Offline
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So how many non-American egos does it take to flame an American girl? Give up? 3 \:\)

There's a moral to the above joke. The three of you appear to have a mother tongue which is not English, and/or you three seem to have a very low level of reading comprehension. Before we seriously debate intelligently, I would advise you to go back and re-read my long post in which I seem to shit on Logos, to notice that I did not attack Einstein, I was praising him.

As for the weird biblical quote. I provided both the English and Greek for the three of you, and you still couldn't figure it out on your own. I'll restate it in a dumb way:

"In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God."

What's the intent behind this quote. Well, it basically shows that circa 2000 years ago some community of Greek/Jew religious philosophers had already deified or made a "god" out of Reason. And what a fine mess the Dogma of that god got us into.

As for science. If science were an animal, most people would be looking at science's ass, or the shit that comes out of that ass. The shit being the already digested shit in text books and wikipedia: I pity anybody who refers to wiki as a source of significant information. I do.

The question then becomes: How the fuck did that already digested shit get into those text books and wiki... the Reasonable and Logical shit? As if Logic/Logos fell out of something's ass predigested?

How does a field in science start?

It starts with the Scientific Method. Use an experience, form a hypothesis, make a fuckin prediction, and do an experiement. That sounds easy and great. But lets take a closer look at the process of a field of science being born, and lets keep this question in mind: Which comes first: Mythos or Logos?

Take for instance the field of genetics. This shit didn't fall out of a sky. It started with someguy wondering who how traits are pasted down. Then some monk worked with peas. During that early stage of this field of science the Logic and Reason of Genetic Science did NOT yet exist. If it did not yet exist, what then did these pioneers in this field of science depend on and utilize? Speculation... hypothesis... imagination... "mythos."

The problem with today's materialistic mainstream science is it has become too dogmatic and textbookish in it's approach. It has abandoned the scientific method for chalkboard mathematics using imaginary numbers; and old data preconceived by scientific saints such as Newton and Einstein. In it's inflexible orthodoxy it leave no opportunity for variation of thought.

As a quick example, there have already been a few Astronomers who have been banned from using observatories simply because they reject the theory of the Big Bang and consider the theory of what is called "Plasma Cosmology" to be a viable theory.

This is unscientific. To reject a theory and to condemn and "excommunicate" it's theorist for conceiving an idea which contradicts established scientific dogma based on written shit by Newton and Einstein et al.

It would be more genuinely scientific if mainstream materialistic science said: "Ok, electric universe? What's the hypothesis? What's the predictions, lets do some experiments with plasma and see what comes of this shit?

Did they do this? Are they doing this?

You support science and reason, which is great, but do you understand the state of that which you are supporting? Or is the "science" you are supporting the shit you came across in text books, classrooms, and wiki?

Good Nite


Edited by Caladrius (09/27/09 03:49 AM)
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#30092 - 09/27/09 04:24 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Diavolo Offline
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That Einstein had the power to change the way people think about reality directly results in him changing reality. Like I said before, the riddle if reality was like that before or not is a useless riddle. Logic states yes but logic works in hindsight. As an example, if I ask if there is a planet between Mercury and the Sun, the obvious answer is no. If however in ten years someone will discover there indeed is another planet, we will be convinced there always has been a planet and thus contradicting our current position. Of course we'll say; “Yes but we didn't know that back then!” which is a fairly logical claim but our lack of knowledge does directly effect reality. What we don't see does not exist. It works otherwise too. As a kid, I did believe in Santa Claus at one point, or rather in our original version Sinterklaas. That person that rode a horse on rooftops and dropped presents on December 6th was as real to me as the birds I saw flying in the sky. When the secret was revealed, reality changed and he became merely a story, or a commercial concept as it is nowadays. When looking at it in hindsight, he never was real but again, my reality back in the day contradicts that.

What you say about a certain reality being true to only those that heard about it or understood it is true. But there is not a single reality as much as there is one for each observer. Consciousness defines reality. At many levels these realities overlap and those similarities we call THE reality but at other levels those realities are totally different and changes anywhere can trigger a resulting change in THE reality.

D.

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#30095 - 09/27/09 05:24 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Caladrius Offline
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"He was a scientist. He worked in science, not myth." Maw

I'll dumb something else down for you so we can be on the "level."
I don't know what you mean when you use the word Mythos-Myth. But when I use it I essentially mean "story telling." That's as dumb as I can get.

When I say that Einstein was using "mythos" to acquire his theory of relativity shit, I mean the mutherfucker was using his fucking imagination and telling stories... stories which only later became ACCEPTED as reasonable.
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#30096 - 09/27/09 05:30 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Caladrius]
Dimitri Offline
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To answer just plain simply on this discussion:
A lack of logos creates mythos, mythos thrives into the brains of the ones without insight or knowledge while being adapted underway to "fit" the human experiences, observations and mistakes.
Only afterwards critical thinkers will begin to dissect the mythos and expand the logos.


 Quote:
This is unscientific. To reject a theory and to condemn and "excommunicate" it's theorist for conceiving an idea which contradicts established scientific dogma based on written shit by Newton and Einstein et al.

If a theory is being rejected, it most of the times means that there is something wrong with it.
I would like to remind you that there is no such thing as "scientifique dogma". Someone believing such a thing or trying to critize the pure scientifique way is a pseudo-scientist or an idiot without a clue.

Science is based on observations, repeatable experiments, models and logic. If you search a bit on the internet you'll notice and will find books, articles and lectures with critics pro and contra for any subject you have in mind. Perhaps you should search a bit more about "electric universe critics".. sometimes opening up the eyecaps might do wonders.

 Quote:

You support science and reason, which is great, but do you understand the state of that which you are supporting? Or is the "science" you are supporting the shit you came across in text books, classrooms, and wiki?

Science has no state, it is happy with all possible views on a subject. Yet there is only one condition: it has to make sense.. and clearly most things spit out by so-called "scientists" (read pseudo-scientists) simply aren't, lack a fundamental model and simply come up with bullshit. Sadly enough most idiots fall for the empty posturing done by these leeches.
It is ofcourse not their mistake, not everyone is gifted with a good working brain and the ability to have a broad perspective while remaining critical.

And while some say you give some interesting points I stick to my first reply..
Especially if a person can't build up a coherent sentence without the words "shit, fuck, fucking,..".


Edited by Dimitri (09/27/09 06:17 AM)
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#30097 - 09/27/09 06:09 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Diavolo Offline
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"Esse est percipi"

Of course I am equating perception of reality with reality Maw, they are identical. Everyone has their own reality but this does not conclude all are isolated. We just coexist in overlapping parts and that is why you still can have that rocket car.

Descriptive laws are tools which work in a certain context but are not necessarily true for all. They can be true in my reality and how I perceive others reality (which is of course a no-brainer to me) but it doesn't necessarily work the other way around. Think the theory of evolution as an example.

D.

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#30099 - 09/27/09 06:26 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Diavolo Offline
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I really don't understand what the confusion here is about the relation of Mythos-Logos as explained in the first post and why all so vehemently react to it? There seems to be some confusion and it is almost interpreted as abandoning all we know and start following some mythological story to the letter.

Maybe if I quote Einstein the relation will be more obvious.

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand."
-Albert Einstein

I got his letters which might share more views upon it but I'm in the middle of a move and it'll have to wait until I got all books back into place.

D.

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#30102 - 09/27/09 11:42 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Caladrius

When I say that Einstein was using "mythos" to acquire his theory of relativity shit, I mean the mutherfucker was using his fucking imagination and telling stories... stories which only later became ACCEPTED as reasonable.

This little gem here seems to sum up your whole case, and also illustrates why it fails.

If you could produce some sort of evidence that Einstein, or anyone else, has the ability to somehow (perhaps through alchemy?) transform his or her fanciful wishes into reality, you would indeed have accomplished something.

Alas, though, it has become obvious that it is in fact your critical misunderstanding of how science, and scientific discoveries work that is impeding your understanding.

Since you seem to be fond of patronizing tones and looking down your nose at those that disagree with you, let me 'dumb this down to YOUR level' a second. Scientists to not 'create', they 'uncover'. Einstein did not 'dream up' his theories, he figured out theories that fit testable reality.

You see, that's what science does, what it is. Science is simply knowledge, and all methods of reliably acquiring it. If you think a particular accepted theory or idea is bullshit, you have to do BETTER science, come up with BETTER explanations, and they better be testable and repeatable!

If they aren't, you are left with the 'mythos' you seem to be so fond of, which is fine. Just don't pretend it contains any real explanatory power here in the real world.

After all, if it did it would be logos, not mythos, now wouldn't it ? \:\)
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#30103 - 09/27/09 11:57 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dan_Dread]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Diavolo

Of course I am equating perception of reality with reality Maw, they are identical. Everyone has their own reality but this does not conclude all are isolated. We just coexist in overlapping parts and that is why you still can have that rocket car.

I disagree. I think reality is as it is, regardless of how anyone or anything perceives it. We can't create our own reality. We are all bound by the same laws laid out for us by 'the universe'.

We of course are just crude flesh contraptions with randomly and highly inefficiently evolved senses with which to experience this reality, and a fairly primitive fleshly brain with which to interpret this data. With this said, we probably don't experience this reality as it really IS, or even have the faculties to understand how or what REALITY really is.

All we can really do is work with what we have to try to get as close to 'the real' as we can. To stretch the limits of our understanding and ability to try to uncover what we can, and use it to our best benefit. This is a hard and mostly unrewarding path, but still far superior to embracing mythology and make believe to fill in the blanks. Results gathered in this fashion will get nobody closer to any sort of real truth.

Of course, if you like it in LALA land and don't care about what objective reality has to offer, that is fine. Many people, probably most, live with one foot firmly planted in fantasy. Just don't mistake one foot for the other.
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#30106 - 09/27/09 12:46 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dan_Dread]
Caladrius Offline
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What exactly do we each mean when we use the word "reality?" Do we mean the stuff floating out there like planets and stars and nebulas? Do we mean a weltanschauung? Or is it something hazy in between? Is it what our Mind puts together as the environment it exists in as an observer? The minute the objective stimulae of the outside world is beheld by our minds and comes into our conscious awareness, it has become a subjective phenomenon. By that I mean to say that what we "see" as being the outside world is actually the by-product of the electrical jiggles and wiggles of our brain. Once it is in the brain/mind it is subjective.

If by "reality" was mean to say the environment our mind/brain exists "within" as an observer. Then yes, we do constantly change and mutate our reality. In fact one man or corporation can alter the reality of the whole world.

To illustrate: the invention of Commercial airlines or Computers or television or Bill Gates or automobiles or the concept of personal liberty and freedom or the big changer of reality: Money. Granted, these things don't force Jupiter into new orbits and shit, but they have each changes, revolutionized our "world" we live in: the "reality" which our minds are directly exposed to and immersed "in."
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#30119 - 09/27/09 05:53 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Caladrius]
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[oops, I mean "Physical" not "psychical" I was thinking of something different, in the other thread.]

Edited by Caladrius (09/27/09 05:55 PM)
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#30125 - 09/28/09 08:01 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Caladrius]
Diavolo Offline
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We are not talking about reality itself but about reality as perceived by a human and the limitations and potential which come with that.

When for a second attributing consciousness to an object, imagine a video camera to be a conscious observer. The reality as the video camera perceives it is two dimensional; it does not see depth. The lens perceives the environment, processes that through its processor (brain) and puts it on film. Reality for that camera is limited to the width of its lens and to the dimensions of its film. The fact that reality is three-dimensional and existing outside of the lens range is an alien concept to the camera. Its subjective reality is as 'big' as the camera's limitations.

The same goes for conscious life forms on earth. The size of the reality of a life form is equally great as the potential of its consciousness. A cat has a small reality compared to that of a human. Why is our reality so huge? Because our consciousness has one magnificent ability seldom encountered in other life forms here; imagination. But even our expanded consciousness does have one severe limitation; it can't perceive reality different than it perceives it. Just like the camera has its limitations, so have we humans. And that's why we are stuck inside a subjective reality.

This however does not imply that all exists in our brain, or that whatever we imagine becomes necessarily true. But it creates potential to toy with reality. As mentioned before, the psychodrama of Satanism can be taken outside of its box and spread through reality. If this sounds alien, imagine a depressed person. What they do (even if unwillingly) is nothing else but take their internal psychodrama and use it to change reality (as perceived by them). Belief does the same. It doesn't matter if people believe in god, ghosts, the devil or demons, the process is identical; they change their reality to include what they believe and reality will, in return, affirm them in their belief. The fact that about all satanists think they are the hottest thing on earth, as an example, can also be seen as taking psychodrama out of its box and move it to the biggest box out there; reality. In the end, it does not need to be true to obtain results; it only needs to be true to the actor.

Truth itself is a metaphysical concept and of little use in day to day life or when being goal-oriented. What counts there is what works.

D.

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#30128 - 09/28/09 10:54 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Diavolo Offline
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You seem to confuse belief with the willingness to dive into ones own creation.

If you are an actor in a play, you know it is merely a play, a simplification of a reality invented by someone else but if you'd constantly need to remind yourself that you are merely a guy on stage pretending he is an invented persona saying words written down by another, you'd be a lousy actor. Good actors lose themselves in their role and become their character, they make the words real and enter that reality.
Once the role doesn't have benefits any longer, you drop it.

If you are your own god and you inhabit your own reality, what a dull god would you be if you would not be able to adjust that reality to your liking or to your needs?

Let's take it to simple examples. You're in the pub and you want to get into some girls pants. You aren't going to demand a verification first that you are her type or want a written thesis about her bed-qualities, so you'll know that the effort is not wasted. No, you create a stage and become an actor. You change your reality, and hers of course, in order to get what you want. Those that say that you just need to be yourself either have a lot of cash or don't get laid a lot.

The same when you go for a job interview; you create a character and toy with reality as long as it is advantageous. You'll never say 'Well actually I'm an average candidate for the job and it isn't too important for your company if you pick me or one of the twenty others that applied." No you lie and act as if the lie is true.

You can call it psychology or LBM or whatever you like but what you do is toy with your and other's reality and take advantage of that. That is the intention of creating these realities. Whether it is true or not is of little matter as long as you get the results you like.

And in the end we are back at Mythos it seems.

D.

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#30132 - 09/28/09 01:04 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Diavolo Offline
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Why does faith have such control over you that even when you discard it, it terrifies you that much you can't even see it as the tool it is and use it accordingly?

Vamamarga is a path of experience, a path of confrontation; going beyond good and evil in the Nietzschean sense. Avoidance only limits your personal progress.

It's your life like you said but not only are you missing out on the fun, you're also limiting your potential.

D.

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#30136 - 09/28/09 03:37 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Quote:

Faith is poison to me. I loathe it.

I've been singing this same song for many years. I've always seen faith(Faith, meaning in this instance,religious faith, that being a belief that can either not objectively be shown as true or it can objectively be shown to be untrue.) as a sort of mind virus. The second you allow yourself to assign truth to a proposition without evidence the wall between truth and fantasy has come down. Once something is 'true' based on faith alone, anything can be 'true'.

To me this is a problem of epic proportions.

I suppose this is because I personally place great value on logic and reason, and through them, knowledge. As faith is not and can never be a valid form of epistemology, all we really have to figure anything out is 'logos'.

'Mythos', while useful for emotional stimulation, will never give us knowledge, and as such, insofar as I am concerned anyway, will always be 'second banana'.
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#30240 - 10/03/09 10:29 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dan_Dread]
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I have a friend who claimed logos was the true messiah mankind has sought for thousands of years. I believe the madness of faith belief is only a misplaced interpretation of instinct brought about by our recent development of large conglomerate societies. It has always been a weapon of dictators and empire, especially in the case of communism where deceptively "god" becomes government and you are expected to have faith in the government leaders, or in capitalism where you are expected to have faith in the corporation you buy product from or work for...

Unfortunate....

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#30242 - 10/03/09 11:56 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: 97and107]
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I have long felt that statism and further, patriotism/nationalism are theisms earthbound bastard cousins. In both cases a premise is offered that you are expected to swallow whole without examination, and in both cases examination weakens, if not destroys, the premise.

And , of course, both require faith to operate.

The 'God' meme is very flexible and contrary to popular belief, is not confined to religions.

In my eyes Anarchism(not black flags and firebombs, but serious Austrian school economic and political models) is political Atheism.
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#30243 - 10/03/09 12:22 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dan_Dread]
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Yes, I love Anarchism. (97. And 107 are gematric in some qabala for Satanist or Satan and Anarchy or Anarchist) that is interesting how you propose it as "true political Atheism". - will have to keep my eye on you.

I have a former friend who is Austrian royalty deposed during some cultural revolution and he held an absolute abhorrence for any kind of worship, even of other people. But he was not allied with Satanism (but!) By any definition could have been one.

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#30251 - 10/03/09 04:03 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
97and107 Offline
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Over time my criticism of Satanic factions has lessened, partly because I don't find the infighting in xianity appealing, and two, I would rather dine witha member of CoS or ONA more than I would a common religio-fascist perpetrator.

As a parallel, in my dealings with all of the 500 nations here in the US I find Navajo and Ojibwe to be quite irritating, but despite this have an occasional friend there, too - familiarity breeds contempt but native americans in general understand me better and divisiveness only hurts us, rather than doing anything positive.

In the same way I am an independant Satanist but I need to be more forgiving of those under the banner of Satanism even if they have bizarre beliefs I don't agree with, since even this is preferable to the banality of mediocrity or normalacy.

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#30254 - 10/03/09 04:35 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Caladrius Offline
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Here's an old ONA MS on the ONA and Anarchy. It should be kepted in mind that this is old; and that to the Sinister Individual, such things as Anarchy serves only as a tool. In the same sense that "Satanism," NS, or now Radical Islam are outer tools for the sinister individual to utilize to manifest certain end results:

*****

ONA and Anarchy I: Magick and Politics


(Transcribed from a talk given by Anton Long at ONA Sunedrion, Oxford, yf 99)

Magick and Politics

What is occurring more and more within society, is adherence by individuals to ephemeral causes and 'opinions' as a result of the subjection to individuals to propaganda both overt and more 'covert' (i.e. 'subliminal'). That is, society is developing so as to make practical experience of the traumas of life more and more distant - the individual becoming shielded not only by the 'State' and its Institutions by also by ideas. Thus, the world is seen via the distorting lenses of these ideas. In the past, wisdom arose usually painfully over a period of time by diverse and often traumatic personal experience - that is, a very individual' 'view of the world' was formed as a result of these varied experiences. Of course, few arrived at even this stage of conscious development.

Magick, properly understood, was an attempt to 'short-circuit' this process - hence, for example, the tasks and procedures of the Grade Rituals in the seven-fold Way. Thus, magick built, from within and without 'the individual, a genuine foundation - an 'inner core' which enabled the individual to not only survive in an often-hostile world, but also enhance their life quite significantly. Magick restores the individual in a very important way to the 'roots of their being' allowing thus a personal growth.

However, society in general does the opposite. Its 'education', its Institutions, its Laws all act together to produce an individual lacking in spirit: that is, devoid of a personal world-view. Moreover, this occurs whatever the outward political allegiance of the society -e.g.. Socialist or capitalist or shades in between. - and occurs whether or not a particular society is 'democratic' or overtly 'repressive.

The only difference between the two is the method: the latter is more objectified and direct, often involving force and suppression, while the former is more devious (and all the more dangerous because of this).

Essentially, there is growing within nearly all the societies of the world a consensus and an adherence to a certain set of ideas and values. That is, there is a 'levelling down' of differences together with a real loss of individual freedom not only in terms of the ability of an individual to transit freely, unencumbered by whatever 'past' he or she may have, but equally importantly in terms of inner outlook. There is less and less 'realness' about individuals because the dramatic, formative experiences which shape and mould character and which give spirit are either becoming 'illegal'/frowned upon or made impossible by State control and/or indoctrination of the individual into a certain pattern of living/ideas about life.

In the practical sense, one could say not only are the legal restraints on an individual and their actions increasing, but also the direct power which States have over individuals (and this includes information about individuals) are ever growing. This, coupled with co-operation between States in the distribution/exchange of information and the desire for even more and larger 'federations' of States (e.g. like a 'European State') both national and international, means more and more direct personal restrictions and less and less 'inner freedom'. There is in short, much more superficial ways of living: ways encouraged by States and by those who adhere to what is fast becoming the accepted world 'idea-system'. This 'idea-system', it will surprise few here, is based to a great extent on the 'Nazarene view of the world'. Already in one of its many political forms it is established within the States of the West where its watchwords include 'democracy' and 'equality' and 'freedom'. Of course, those words enshrine clever ideas - but they are not real simply because they belong to something beyond one or at least a few individuals.

This is really the crux of the matter. What is real is that which exists for each one of us, and this is and must be discovered anew by every individual as part of the process of life itself: when it is not, there is no real life - only the appearance of it. There is thus no inner essence, only outward form. What this means is that all governments, States, Institutions or power-groupings negate this essence because our conscious life is a personal process of development pivotal upon our understanding of ourselves, the world, the cosmos and those few others with whom we inter-act in a very personal way: it should not be extrapolated beyond this, and all politics, all religion and all social pressures of whatever hue contradict this. They are, essentially, counter-evolutionary because they make the individual reliant on that which is not born from within. Thus there can be no such thing as genuine 'democracy/freedom/equality' and all attempts to create what are only abstract ideas destroy individuality. Such abstract ideas, however, continue to flourish, and they continue to make the individual sterile. There will be, in the near future, more and reliance upon such ideas, more and more attempts to make them a 'reality' in State/governmental forms - e.g.. in Eastern Europe and beyond.

Of course, this analysis forms the core of 'genuine anarchism': but even this is a label, an ism - which has evolved into an 'idea' with all the dissent appropriate to an idea. Magick is a means away from all this - it is a practical system, devoid of dogma, and makes possible the next stage of our evolution as individuals. As such, it is direct opposition to all power-forms - governmental, religious or social - although this opposition is silent and will remain silent.(Note 1)

Magick is individual and will remain individual and while current conditions remain not unfavourable as regards the spread of information relating to its techniques, this will probably change: simply because inner liberation is and will continue to be so for some time the province of a small number of individuals while the devotees of abstract political and social ideas continue to flourish and expand.

This, naturally, is only a brief resume of the problem and what perhaps it is essential to remember is that we as artists of the magickal possess the ability to bring about change: both within ourselves and, should we wish it, within the society within which we live. The essence of the former is the seven-fold way, that of the latter: Aeonic Magick.

(This article first appeared in Issue 34 (Summer Solstice) yf101 of Azoth, an internal ONA bulletin.)


(1) Silent as in "covert" - at least in respect of the intention of the Initiate/Adept of the Sinister Tradition of the ONA. Understood magickally, politics, of whatever type, is one means, one form, used in a magickal way by an Initiate/Adept to bring about causal change in accord with the sinister intent of that Initiate/Adept, and in accord with intent of the Sinister Dialectic itself.

*****
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#30267 - 10/04/09 02:41 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Caladrius Offline
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Your welcome,

That's one of the more fascinating aspects of the ONA, or rather Long/Myatt: is that it will adopt any subversive tool to undermine what it calls "the Magian" to the point where from an exoteric perspective, the ONA seems to completely contradict itself.

You've got ONA embracing "Satanism" and expounding the wonders and virtues of Radical Islam. Then you have ONA seemingly embracing National-Socialism and racialism, and at the same time makes White People the new Subhuman species to be hated and destroyed.

The following MS will answer some of your questions you have. It is fresh out of the head of David Myatt. It is one manuscript in a series of such manuscripts he has written which deals with "Homo Hubris," and "Vindex."

*****

The Downfall of The White Hordes of Homo Hubris

Introduction


The downfall of The White Hordes of Homo Hubris, the destruction of their nation-States, of The West itself, is something not only to be desired, but also striven toward by all practical means.

Why? Because as mentioned in Chapter Two of The Mythos of Vindex, “The White Hordes of Homo Hubris…have consistently and for many centuries been the destroyers, par excellence, of The Numinous.” In addition, it is and has been The White Hordes of Homo Hubris (Footnote 1) who are and who were the natural allies and the footsoldiers of the Magian, and who are responsible for the present triumph, in the West, of the Magian and the Magian ethos, which triumph has enabled the creation of the tyrannical, dishonourable, modern nation-States with their abstract laws, their materialism and their mechanistic so-called “progress”. For is The White Hordes of Homo Hubris who – doing the bidding of their Magian masters, knowingly or unknowingly – have used brutal force and war to fight and destroy each and every attempt to resist the control of the Magian, just as it is and has been The White Hordes of Homo Hubris who have brutally and ruthlessly put down each and every rebellion against the Magian ethos, and who at the time of writing are engaged in yet another war against those who seek to free themselves from Magian control and who desire to live in communities free of the stifling, un-numinous materialistic, mechanistic, Magian ethos.

Why have The White Hordes of Homo Hubris done this? Why are they, and why have they been, the allies, servants and footsoldiers of the Magian? Is it because of their ethnicity – something innate? Or is it because they themselves have enthusiastically adopted, or became infected with, the Magian ethos itself? Fundamentally, it is combination of both these factors.

The Character of Homo Hubris

The White Hordes have, and have had for at least two thousand or more years, a certain innate character (Footnote 2). This character is one of arrogant aggression; of arrogant interference; of cunning; and especially of hubris – that belief, that instinct, that impatience – often born from some feeling of “Destiny” – that “they know better”, that they are somehow “more civilized” than others, and that “progress” or change is in itself desirable. In addition, they seem to have some innate desire to manufacture and to identify with – and some kind of addiction to – causal abstractions; to impose categories, -isms, and -ologies upon themselves, others, the world, and the Cosmos itself.

Basically, they are and have been for thousands of years, restless, and have either (1) never managed, en masse, to establish a balance within themselves and so have been unable or unwilling to manufacture – for long – stable, communities and societies which express, manifest and continually presence the numinous, sans abstractions; or (2) have never been able to control, for very long, their primal instincts, their lack of respect for the numinous, and their innate bullying savagery, although they have managed, or rather connived, to convince themselves, and sometimes others, that they, and their ways, are somehow “civilized”, although this so-called “civilized behaviour” of theirs that they have often been so very proud of is and only ever has been at best a thin veneer, and at worst mere pretence, for while showing to others, and the world, a civilized and “honourable” public face, they have hypocritically continued to act, in private, in an altogether different way, as was for so evident, for instance, in the days of the British Raj in India, and of British control in places like East Africa, where the private lives of the individuals did not match the hypocritical high standards they preached about in public and which they attempted to convince people they were examples of.

This utter hypocrisy, this lack of control, this cunning, this aggression, this hubris, this insolence and disrespect of the numinous, this desire for the illusion and the security of abstractions, is so evident, also and more recently, in the behaviour of The White Hordes of Homo Hubris in places like Afghanistan, which they have occupied by force in order to impose their ways, their abstractions, upon the peoples there. Thus, they have yet again disrupted and are attempting to destroy the ways of life of others; and are yet again using force, terror, cunning, lies – and all the other tactics of the insolent – in order to get those peoples to adopt some mythical idealized way of life, which idealized way of life does not even exist and never has existed even in the Western lands of The White Hordes.

Thus, The White Hordes of Homo Hubris are yet again bringing death, destruction, disruption, hunger, and suffering, to others in the name of some mythical un-numinous abstraction. In the case of Afghanistan, it is in the name of the un-numinous abstraction “democracy” and in the name of “peace”, by which the sly White Hordes mean, of course, the so-called “peace” that arises when one surrenders to a bully, that is, surrenders to them.

The character of The White Hordes of Homo Hubris is also evident in their desire to control, to restrain, to “organize” – to try to dominate – Nature. The character of The White Hordes of Homo Hubris is evident in their obsession with causal Time and with “planning”, which obsession anyone who comes from, or who has lived for any time among, other non-Western communities and cultures and cultures, will recognize. For example, individuals who belong to The White Hordes of Homo Hubris will expect others to share their attitude that “causal Time” is valuable, a kind of commodity, and can be measured out, and, indeed, The White Hordes of Homo Hubris have gone to great lengths – as part of their cultural colonialism – to impose their causal Time and their schedules (based on some abstraction), and their causal orientated mechanistic “planning”, on other peoples, world-wide.

Most other cultures, however, have or had an understanding of life as it is – as a slow flow of slow change, in rhythm with Nature, which slow flow of slow natural and local change those individuals accept and which they do not, for the most part, attempt to struggle against. But, for The White Hordes of Homo Hubris, it is constant struggle – for they desire to impose themselves, their “Time”, their abstractions, upon others and upon Nature. For instance, for them, mañana is an irritation, an inconvenience; just as wu-wei is, and just as “InshaAllah” (as commonly used, for example, by Egyptians) is. For The White Hordes of Homo Hubris, a delay of a day, or a week, or more, is unacceptable, just as for most of their kind the subtle delicacy of chadō is a “waste of time”, an irritation, or something “quaint and touristy”; just as the intricacies and meanings of Ram thai – evolved naturally and locally over periods of natural Time – are and were lost on these impatient “foreign devils” and for whom such things are at best something they can momentarily gawp at. For The White Hordes of Homo Hubris have always ridiculed, or dismissed, or seem as inferior, or wanted to change, the natural practices and ways of every single people they have ever come into contact with, from the Native Americans, of North and South America, to the tribes of Africa, to the lands of Khmer and Tai, to the islands of Nihon.

Given their character, their impatience, their hubris and insolence, their desire for an almost instant gratification, their addiction to abstractions, it is no wonder then that The White Hordes of Homo Hubris came to destroy the culture, the communities, the tribes, of others, and have imposed upon other peoples their own unfeeling, their own causal and un-numinous, abstractions, manufacturing thus modern abstract nation-States in place of the subtle numinous culture of Bushido and Samurai, in place of regional small ancestral kingdoms such as Tai, Khmer, and Mon, and trying to destroy and replace the tribal ways of the Ashanti, Afar, Hopi, Tsitsistas, Ndee, Siksika, and the many, many, others whom they often ruthlessly uprooted from their ancestral lands and whom they demanded, often by force, adopt the ways and abstractions of The White Hordes of Homo Hubris.

Now, of course, they and their savants pretend, for the most part, to “treasure and recognize the importance of the world’s cultural diversity”, but what remains of this diversity – after century upon century of military and cultural colonialism by The White Hordes – is for the most part now rootless, not derived from a thriving, living, numinous and tribal way of life which owes little or nothing to the ways, the abstractions, of the West. Such “cultural diversity” is now often only some “tourist attraction” for the tourists of The White Hordes “to enjoy” and gawp at, or something the Western-style governments and nations of other lands have appropriated and which they promote in order to foster a kind of artificial national unity, and a Western-style nationalism, among the citizens of these more-often-than-not Western created new nation-States, over which the West still retains control, directly or covertly, by the threat of military force, by usurious loans, through “aid”, through political and economic blackmail, or by others means.

Furthermore, what The White Hordes and their Magian masters will not tolerate, in the modern world, is another land, another country, other peoples, being free from Western control, free from Western abstractions, and having a way or ways of life that place their own numinous ancestral culture, their own numinous laws, and a tribal way of living, before the mechanistic material “culture” of the West, before the abstract laws of the West, and before the soul-less abstraction of the usury-driven, debt ridden, tax-demanding nation-State. Any and other such attempts by other peoples to free themselves from Western abstractions, Western control or influence, have been and are ruthlessly put down, which the sly bullying White Hordes of Homo Hubris, and their even slyer Magian masters, always manufacturing some “excuse” for their actions, for their intervention, for the crippling sanctions they impose. (Footnote 3)

Adoption of the Magian Ethos

Long before they devolved even further to become – during and after the so-called Industrial Revolution – Homo Hubris, The White Hordes of the old Europe had begun to undermine and disrupt our natural and slowly evolving connexion to the Numinous, based as this connexion was on tribal communities and the law of personal honour. That is, based on a human, individual, scale of things, on personal knowledge of and interaction with and respect for, others, and upon an awareness, often only instinctive, of ourselves as an integral part of Nature. This connexion thus gave rise to a natural and balanced and fundamentally pagan attitude toward life where the individual for the most part had or could strive to have power over their own affairs or at least the basic freedom to defend themselves with weapons and where the only authority was a local, tribal or clan, one, with those in possession of such authority being personally known to the individual and almost always respected by the individual by virtue of being, for instance, clan or tribal elders.

This undermining and this disruption of the numinous by The White Hordes occurred because of their innate restless insolent character, and because of their manufacture of various un-numinous abstractions which – from the times of Ancient Greece – they interposed between themselves and the reality of the Cosmos and which they increasingly began to adhere to or see as “ideals” to be striven for. These abstractions included, of course, the Platonian “ideal” itself, the notion of potestas tribunicia, and the abstraction of a codifiable law, which established the Imperium Romanum. In many ways, it was this abstraction of a codified law, together with the imposition of a remote, impersonal, authority – often maintained by force and almost always sustained by mandatory taxes – which began the unfortunate dominance of The White Hordes and which marked the real beginning of their de-evolution, of their increasing distance from, and disruption of, the numinous. Of their, in brief, wholesale adoption of and belief in profane abstractions over and above the ways of the Numen. For they began to make this abstraction of a codified law and a remote, impersonal, authority, sustained by mandatory taxes, an ideal to be striven for.

However, it was their outward and inward adoption of the abstractions of what became the religion and dogma of the Nazarene that began not only their great and rapid descent back toward barbarism, and thence ultimately toward and into the new subspecies Homo Hubris, but also and importantly led to an alliance with the Magian, which alliance in its beginnings had more to do with usury, avarice and the power of so-called Kings and rulers, than it had to do with changing the world for the worse based on some messianic abstraction or on some prejudiced desire to “civilize the natives”.

Even so, there were times – several times – when some of the peoples from The White Hordes of the old Europe forsook the ways of abstractions and of profanity, and returned to the old ways of balance and a natural paganism. But every time such a natural balance was restored within some communities of the West, it became undermined, and was ultimately destroyed, by the restless insolent abstraction-loving character germane to the White Hordes themselves, often because of the desire to pursue, to believe in, to implement, some un-numinous abstraction; some dogma, so -ism or some -ology, be these -isms or these -ologies deemed to be “political”, social, or “religious”, which terms themselves (politics, religion, social) are of course just more examples of the un-numinous illusive causal abstractions imposed upon the numinous reality of our organic, acausally-imbued life.

What we have now – manifest in The White Hordes of Homo Hubris and their Magian masters, with their modern tyrannical nation-States – is the result of The White Hordes having: (1) adopted and adapted what became the abstraction of the Nazarene (Magian-derived) way of life; (2) having adopted and adapted the Magian principle of usury; (3) having manufactured from the Nazarene abstraction and from their own other abstractions (such as a codified law and a remote, impersonal, authority, sustained by mandatory taxes) new abstractions; and (3) from them striving to implement, because of and using their innate character, these new abstractions, such as modern “democracy”, the modern nation-State, and the mythical desire for so-called “peace” to be established, of course, by and under the aegis of the armed forces led by or dominated by The White Hordes who have manufactured for themselves a world mandate, courtesy of their creations such as the so-called “United Nations”.

Thus was the rough beast – our mortal enemy – born, to slouch toward Bethlehem, where it helped to bring about the Zionist entity, which entity has come to believe that its messianic hour is almost here, at last.

The Tyrannical Abstraction of The State

One of the fundamental problems of our times in the un-numinous, the tyrannical, the impersonal, abstraction of The State, maintained as this abstraction is by mandatory taxes, by an increasingly bullying Police force which increasingly relies upon surveillance and paid informers, and imbued as this abstraction is with a mechanistic materialism, a capitalistic ethos, and the ever-present threat of individuals being incarcerated in some barbaric prison if they break some law which some servant or servants of The State have manufactured in order to ensure the survival of The State and the survival of those oligarchies who control The State and who benefit from its existence.

The modern State – wherever in the West or in the world it is located – seeks to imbue its citizens with either some sort of abstract national pride (for which it has manufactured a lifeless un-numinous so-called national “culture”) or with a belief in some other abstraction of a political, social, or religious nature, just as it assigns a high priority to other abstractions such as “national security” or “national defence”, and just as it uses all the means at its disposal – from the Media to entertainment to sport to manufactured celebratory events to worthless so-called “traditions” to promises about “change” and “progress” – in an attempt to keep its mostly debt-ridden wage and salary slaves reasonably content, knowing that it needs the taxes it steals and extorts from them in order to maintain its existence, and the existence of the parasites who feed upon it and who benefit from it.

For the modern nation-State is, in truth, a large legalized protection racket, demanding you pay “protection money” or you will be visited by their “heavies” (the Police and the other agencies they control) and then either asked to pay even more protection money (a “fine”) or be imprisoned for however long they deem appropriate in their barbaric prisons, which prisons they maintain as a means of persuasion and control. for the so-called “justice” of the State and its flunkies is an abstract, impersonal, “justice” wholly unrelated to the natural and numinous (and real) justice which derives from personal honour – for their abstract so-called “justice”, and their Police forces and their laws, take away the freedom and the ability of the individual to make their own judgement of others, to be responsible for themselves, and to seek honourable redress in a personal, direct, manner.

What all this amounts to is that The State makes the individual rootless, powerless, and undermines and destroys the connexion of the individual to the numinous, for it destroys that natural, numinous, culture which arises from our natural, tribal, human, way of living. It takes away the ability of the individual to evolve in a natural way, for it replaces the natural perspective of Nature and the Cosmos with the perspective of various lifeless abstractions, all of which abstractions have their own lifeless, un-numinous and ultimately causal and mechanistic goals. Even what passes for “religion” or for a non-material Way in such States is lifeless, un-numinous and ultimately meaningless because it is either an abstraction itself (some -ism, some -ology) or because it demands subservience of the individual to its dogma and does not recognize, promote nor accept either personal empathy or personal honour as a basis for insight and for living.

In contrast, a true numinous way of living is never “religious” and never supra-personal; it is never impersonal and dogmatic, and never demands subservience to some impersonal authority. Instead, a true numinous way of living: (1) always arises from, and is part of, a natural tribal or clan-based community who live, who work, together in some locality and who thus know each other personally or know of, or are related to, the others in such a locality, and (2) always allows for, and indeed often insists upon, the importance of individual empathy, of individual experience, of individual change, never ever thus negating those three most fundamental principles of genuine freedom, of our humanity itself: empathy, personal honour, and a learning from direct personal experience, which personal learning builds noble character and which personal, practical and direct experience is far far more valuable than the abstract impersonal “learning” and the “knowledge” and the “experience” obtained in and enforced by impersonal Institutions and by mandatory State schools.

For the birth of this beast, The State, we have to thank The White Hordes of Homo Hubris and the influence of the Magian ethos, and for the continued existence of this beast and its modern progeny we have to thank the alliance of The White Hordes of Homo Hubris and the Magian. However, what began as an alliance has now become, in the last several decades, almost total control of The White Hordes of Homo Hubris by the Magian, and an almost total reliance, by The White Hordes, on not only The State, but also on abstractions, which abstractions now include the new mythos which the Magian and their willing helpers among the White Hordes have developed as one means of control (Footnote 4).

The Downfall of The White Hordes of Homo Hubris

How can we, how should we, deal with this beast, The State, and thus re-establish our connexion to the numinous? First, we have to accept that the peoples of the West – the vast majority of whom are still part of The White Hordes of Homo Hubris – will not, and cannot, suddenly change their nature, and what has now become their character, and neither will they, at least not in the next century or so, free themselves from the control of the Magian and from their subservience to The State. For this State still provides them with, and will continue to provide them with, a reasonable materialistic way of life, and the Magian will ensure that the troops and minions of The White Hordes of Homo Hubris will fight for, and/or obtain by whatever means, whatever resources are needed, wherever in the world they are, in order for their lackey Western States, and their own beloved Zionist entity, to survive.

Given all these things, it is reasonable to suggest and expect and to work toward one or both of the following. (1) That the societies of the West have to broken down and disrupted from within by those who understand the perfidy of the abstraction of The State and who desire to live in either a new numinous, and evolutionary, way, or in a way consistent with their own, non-Western, culture or way of life. (2) That those, external to the West, who have suffered most at the hands of The White Hordes of Homo Hubris – and who have somehow managed to maintain at least some of their own numinous culture or some of their own ancestral tribal ways, and who may not yet be infected that much by the Magian ethos and the new Magian mythos – should begin to free themselves from Western control and Western influence by practical and/or by “spiritual”/cultural means, which practical means includes the use of armed force, rebellion, and insurrection, and which cultural means include embracing a tribal way of life, ancestral or otherwise.

In both of these, the emphasis needs to be moved away from the traditions, the history, the past culture, the current ethos, of the indigenous peoples of the West (the White “foreign devils”) and instead directed toward either (1) that of other non-Western peoples or (2) toward a new numinous and tribal way of living for peoples of any ethnicity, White and non-White. (Footnote 5)

Thus, it is time for a genuine new beginning, away from the West of today and yesterday. Time for the crimes, the oppression, the tyranny, of the West – of The White Hordes of Homo Hubris – to be exposed, to be understood, and for Western ways, values and abstractions to be rejected in favour of the ways, the traditions, the culture, of other peoples and in favour of our new and numinous way. It is time for other peoples to cease to regard and cease to view the West, and The White Hordes of Homo Hubris, as examples to followed and admired, and for the so-called progress and the current prosperity of the West to be understood for what it is: the bloody result of centuries of colonialism; the result of centuries of exploitation of the peoples and resources of the world; the result of centuries of blackmail, extortion, plunder, war, and atrocity after atrocity; the consequence of real holocaust after real holocaust.

Indeed, it is correct to state that the barbarian peoples of the West – despite their sly propaganda to the contrary – are the most blood-thirsty people in human history, having been responsible, during their recent “Second World war” alone, for the killing of over seventy million people, which is equivalent to exterminating more than the whole population of a country such as modern day France. In addition, if one considers the slaughter that the West have been responsible for in the past one hundred and fifty years alone, it is equivalent to exterminating far more than the whole population of a populous country such as modern day Pakistan.

Therefore it is indeed time for Western ways, values and abstractions to be rejected, and for the West itself to be brought down. For the West, with its abstract nation-States, with its White Hordes of Homo Hubris in thrall to the new Magian mythos and fighting for and on behalf of that mythos, is the greatest obstacle to our further evolution; the greatest tyranny to have befallen us in our history, although few among The White Hordes realize this, so brainwashed have they been by the sly propaganda of their nations, and so unaware as they are and have been of true, the evolutionary, purpose of our individual lives. For this modern profane mechanistic materialistic tyranny has taken away from us our numinous tribal ways, taken away our numinous living culture, our empathy, and our personal honour: our freedom to live numinously.

Furthermore, the foundation, the basis, the essence, of the change required to bring about the downfall of The White Hordes of Homo Hubris and their nation-States, is the change toward creating new communities; the change toward new tribes and tribal ways of living, whether these are urban based or rural, and whether or not – in the case of non-Western lands – these are based on or inspired by surviving traditions and surviving ancestral ways. That is, there is and must be a rejection of the abstraction of The State itself, and a desire to embrace the natural, the numinous way, of tribes and clans. The way of the tribe is the way of the future; the way toward a conscious and a continuing evolution, while the way of The State is the way of restriction, of tyranny, of impersonal control.

The change, the evolution, that we seek to bring about is a natural one; an evolutionary return to what is numinous; a restoration of the balance that has been lost, and this is, in essence, a return to a tribal way of life, a return to and a development of empathy, and a return to the law of personal honour in place of the abstract law of The White Hordes and of the Magian.

This is an evolutionary return because it derives from a knowledge and understanding of the perfidy of abstractions – and especially the perfidy of The State and of conventional religions – and from a knowledge and understanding of ourselves as a nexion. That is, it is based on an appreciation and awareness of the numinous, and is a conscious choice to change ourselves in a natural and numinous way. It is evolutionary because there is no desire to tro to re-create some idealized past or some mythical past way of living, tribal or otherwise. Instead, there is a striving to evolve, to become part of, to bring-into-being, new tribes, to form new communities from these new tribes, and to allow the development of new and numinous and vibrant cultures from these new communities.

Then – having awoken from the abstractive illusions that currently hold most people in a dream-like sleep – we can evolve, change, and develope; we will cease to be children, and instead become mature human beings who can leave their childhood home, this planet we call Earth, evolving thus to become an entirely new species of being.

David Myatt

Notes:

(1) For a general description of Homo Hubris, see (a) Homo Hubris and the Disruption of The Numinous and (b) The Ethos of Vindex In Historical Context (Part Two of The Mythos of Vindex)

(2) A good example of their type of character is the figure of Alexander of Macedon, who was ruthless, cunning, ambitious, vain, arrogant, restless, insolent, who believed himself to have a “Destiny”, and who set about disrupting the ways of life of other peoples, and imposing his own way upon those he conquered, thus destroying their tribal ways and thus upsetting the natural balance which those peoples had attained over long periods of time. In place of their ancestral tribal ways – which maintained for them a connexion to the Numinous – he imposed his own lifeless abstractions.

In describing the nature and character and thus the personality, the persona, of the collective White Hordes, we are, of course, generalizing, based as this generalization is upon a study of the history of the old Europe, and upon the deeds committed by the collective White Hordes in the past thousand years, including their colonialism.

Since it is a generalization, some or indeed many individuals belonging to, or deemed to be belong to, The White Hordes may have a character, a nature, a persona, different from, or even quite distinct from, that of the collective White Hordes themselves.

(3) Communism – and all forms of political socialism – are just more un-numinous abstractions manufactured by The White Hordes and by the Magian, with all or most of these forms requiring some State for them to be, in theory, implemented or tried. Similarly, all forms of modern democracy are un-numinous abstractions and most if not all also require some State for them to be implemented or tried.

Thus, all these forms, all these abstractions – like capitalism and fascism and all conventional religions – do not and never can liberate the individual or a people and return them to a numinous way of life, but instead only serve to enslave them further to un-numinous abstractions.

(4) This new Magian manufactured mythos slyly combines several elements. The first element is the almost mythical belief that the so-called “West” (and especially America) is a bastion of “reason, justice, and freedom”; that “democracy” means “freedom and peace”; and that those who do or who may oppose the nation-States of the West (for whatever reason) are “enemies of freedom, and enemies of reason and democracy”. The second element is that the way to prosperity and “freedom” and happiness lies in accepting the values, the ways, the abstractions, of the West, such as “democracy” and usury. The third element is that the Western created “United Nations” – over which the West maintains control by means of the so-called Security Council – has a mandate to intervene in the affairs of any country, by force if necessary; impose punitive sanctions, and is generally “keeping the peace”, although of course this so-called “peace” is really submission. The fourth element is that the West – and whatever allies it deems suitable (such as the Zionist entity) – has a right, and even a duty, to possess vastly superior weapons, including nuclear weapons, which it can and which it should deny to whomsoever it chooses, so that its military power can never, ever, be challenged by conventional means.

The fifth element – and perhaps the most sly element – of the new Magian mythos is the one that binds all the others together, and this is that the West, and those chosen to be their allies, have in the last hundred years fought and won several hard, difficult, wars for their “freedom” and their “rights”, which “wars for freedom” most importantly include what is called The Second World War, where the forces of “good” (the West, their allies and friends, including the Magian) narrowly defeated the forces of “evil” (the German National-Socialists and the warriors of Nippon) with the German National-Socialists accused of being responsible for the worst atrocity in human history (the so-called Shoah) and which so-called atrocity led to the necessary establishment of the Zionist entity, which entity should therefore be supported at whatever cost, and is itself a bastion of democracy and freedom.

The final element of the new Magian mythos is the belief that the West must defend itself, “whatever the cost”; that threats to “freedom” exist now or will exist; that the security of Western nations and of their allies are vital to freedom itself, and that its people should be and are expected to make sacrifices to ensure “our continuing freedom” even if this means going to fight in some war somewhere, or supporting whatever Western security organizations do and whatever laws governments may manufacture to “protect their freedom and their national security”.

Most if not all the peoples of the West accept and believe in most if not all of this modern mythos.

(5) Basically, the White peoples of the West need to cure themselves of their addiction to, and their desire to manufacture, abstractions, as they need to reform their own character by developing empathy, by re-engaging with and respecting the numinous, and by returning to and embracing the individual way of individual honour. Fundamentally, they need to reject the abstractions of the nation-State, of conventional “religions” and the causality of all “politics”, and instead embrace a new and tribal way of living.

Thus, it is not a question of ethnicity or of ethnic conflict – but rather the opposite; bringing-into-being in the West new ethnically diverse tribes. It is a question of all peoples, but especially the White peoples of the West – rejecting lifeless abstractions and adopting instead numinous ways based upon a new tribal way of life.

*****
_________________________
.:.gone fishing.:.

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#30268 - 10/04/09 03:31 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Caladrius]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2517
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Caladrius
... The following MS will answer some of your questions you have. It is fresh out of the head of David Myatt. It is one manuscript in a series of such manuscripts he has written which deals with "Homo Hubris," and "Vindex."

Well, I'm sorry, but all it did was trigger my MEGO alarm.

It sure would be convenient if all the screwy things done by hairless primates on this planet were identifiable by some physical feature (skin, hair, eyeball color; earlobes; pointed eyebrows; etc.). Then we could just hangemallhighatdawn and find ourselves in a perfect, schmoozy utopian society, perhaps like Pleasantville. Golly gee whiz, count me in! [Woops, better trim those eyebrows ...]
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#30274 - 10/04/09 06:57 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 318
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
 Originally Posted By: Caladrius
... The following MS will answer some of your questions you have. It is fresh out of the head of David Myatt. It is one manuscript in a series of such manuscripts he has written which deals with "Homo Hubris," and "Vindex."

Well, I'm sorry, but all it did was trigger my MEGO alarm.

It sure would be convenient if all the screwy things done by hairless primates on this planet were identifiable by some physical feature (skin, hair, eyeball color; earlobes; pointed eyebrows; etc.). Then we could just hangemallhighatdawn and find ourselves in a perfect, schmoozy utopian society, perhaps like Pleasantville. Golly gee whiz, count me in! [Woops, better trim those eyebrows ...]


Said the washed up/sell out Aquino: who is now a user at a LaVeyan forum to: David Myatt. I don't have to defend David Myatt. 20 years, and you're still hating on Myatt huh? To what end Aquino? Is it gunna turn your blue name tag green or something LOL? You know how wack it is for the likes of someone like you or a LaVey, or a Myatt to be in a forum indirectly selling his out dated irrelevant shit by himself? You don't see Myatt up in here selling his shit and battling you. Myatt's got people doing that shit for him. What you got? Nothing. Action speaks louder than words: What have you done for the past 20-30 years, compared to what David Myatt has done? I'm not talking about what the two of you have written, or what propaganda you two have spewed out. I'm talking about what shit have either of you done beside talk. Which one of you two [Aquino & Myatt] can not only do the talking, but walks the fucking walk. You think it makes you a big man for attacking a manuscript philosophically and intelligently? Go challenge Myatt to a duel if you got something against him. Schedule a time and place so the two of you old folks can box it out dude. Tell me when and where, and I'll pass the word down to the Mu Mu. I got $5 that says Myatt will kick the shit out of your ass. But don't act like you're the shit all washed out in here.

Myatt might not have ever made any sense to you Aquino, but even sans his accomplishments and influence, he still has a few things you don't have: 1. Sanity: he never claimed to be speaking to no Satan, Set, vishnu or whoever; 2. He never dressed wack like the grandfather from the Adamm's Family like you; 3. Determination: it could be said that Myatt's ideas are crazy; sure; but Myatt's been living his beliefs unequivocally for the past 30 years. How about you Aquino? What happened to you? Lets see, before you were communicating with Set like Blackwood talks with satan, now the "entity" you spoke with was a what do you call it today? And after all those years of claiming the shit you claimed back, you're a common user in a forum; and one that is not even "Setian." Where your boys at? Where your peeps at homie? You gotta make friends with "LaVeyan" Satanists; because ain't no "Setians" left! Why? because your shit is irrelevant to the needs and weltanschauung of today's current 21st century generation. That "Setian" shit didn't even last longer than LaVey's memeplexes. LaVey out did you, and he still continues to out do you, and he's dead. And what you got on Myatt?

You got every right to have the opinions you have of Myatt and his writing. And you can even debate the shit for all I care. But that don't change the basic fact that Myatt is the shit: 30 years and he is still doing what he has been doing: raising hell. What you doing? Oh, typing away in a forum on the internet? Good job, 30 year Aquino.

Like I said, if you got beef with Myatt's writing, at least be a real man about it and schedule a duel. We'd all love to see Aquino and Myatt fight LOL! I got 5 on the Mu Mu, I hear he knows martial arts. What a joke. Continue with your internet ramblings with me and everybody else in here. While Myatt is somewhere out there, still ticking like a time bomb.

ONA!


Edited by Caladrius (10/04/09 07:13 PM)
_________________________
.:.gone fishing.:.

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#30278 - 10/05/09 12:41 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Caladrius]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2517
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Caladrius
Said the washed up/sell out Aquino ...

Wow, great tantrum. But I think it missed my point, which I apologize if I phrased too whimsically: that Myatt's essay was long, droning, and incoherent - and premised upon silly & simplistic racism. This kind of apocalyptic hand-wringing has been going on since Spengler, and it's just as pouty and pointless now as then. The world is as it is; if you [or Myatt] can do something to improve it, great. If not, you're just underfoot.

I really don't care about Myatt personally one way or the other; as that old rascal Leo Martello once remarked to me, "Everyone can go to Hell on his own banana peel." Myatt is as welcome as anyone else to say what he has to say; and if people are impressed, good for him. What he [or you] can't do is throw a hissy-fit if they're not.

As for the Temple of Set, it's purring along just fine, thank you; it's on the web over here. I retired from the High Priesthood in 1996, but even before then had seen every aspect of its interests and studies soar far beyond my own expertise and competence. I am very pleased at that, as well as by the fact that everyone who has passed through the Temple in the past 34 years has both enjoyed the encounter and remained, or departed, the wiser for it.

I remain a Priest of Set [and regular participant in its forums], but I have been spending some recent time here because I am a bit nostalgic about "the old Satanic days" and curious to see how Satanism-as-such has sailed the seas of time since 1975. I'm much more impressed than I thought I would be, at least where the community which has come together on the 600 Club is concerned.

In my secular life I think I've done O.K.; what exactly is Myatt's secular record, since you are so impressed with it?
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#30279 - 10/05/09 01:35 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 318
Loc: SoCal
Well thank you for you're resume. I'll keep it in a file somewhere Aquino lol. That resume of yours looks awfully familiar? Like I've read the exact same thing almost verbatim before when a few other submitted their resumes to me? Did you copy off of Grand Magister Blackwoood and the Last Samurai Velus Pravus [ONA affiliate]?!

I'll wait for Myatt to turn in his resume to me like you lamely did. And after my review I will let you guys know which one won the million dollar prize. Velus Pravus' resume was more fascinating though. He was raised by a Japanese family of Samurai, and he was a Vietnam vet, and he does know Aikido and he is a Ninja LMAO!

Speaking of fat liars; Blackwood even has you beat nowadays. Besides having more dead weight membership than you. Blackwood's shit, whatever it is has done something your Temple of Set has failed to do: Jump the Generation Gap.

People around my own generation: [15-20ish] have heard of Blackwood; have become familiar with what memes and ideas he sells: as dumb as they are; but they have jumped the dreaded generation gap into the minds of the new generation which will unfortunately take his shit into the future [to die of course].

But you Aquino? Why haven I or anyone in my generation ever heard of you? Nobody in my generation knows a single thing about your Temple of Set? None of your memes crossed over into our current weltanschauung? You know why?

Now you can say: well who gives a shit about you dumb kids anyways? I got really successful 30 somethings buying into my shit. And that's as far as your shit has traveled.

Because your Temple of Set fell of the Generation Gap head first into the pile of rocks below and is dead; or will be dying with you, and those older "x-generationers" or whatever you old folks are called.

That question you asked of me, or what you implied is something which you yourself should truly take into consideration: Why do I [and those of my generation] pick David Myatt over Michael Aquino? Why has Myatt's memeplexes jump the generation gap to insure its survival into the future?

Incoherent or well written: only has relevance to forums and the internet: Your domain. In the world beyond the internet when memes travel between one person to the next in the form of unwritten words most often, the actions such words and ideas manifests and what causal results such actions materialize is worth more than an encyclopedia of erudite documents of theories and philosophical internet discussions.

What have your great volumes and tomes of intellectual delicacies materialized? A website? A group of stooges worshiping an Egyptian deity. People dumb enough to pay you money for "higher degrees" and greater wisdom that only the Great Aquino himself can impart?

Remember, Myatt isn't the one who is trying to sell himself to me. You are. You submitted your resume. Myatt and/or people like LaVey don't need to run around giving people their resumes and headshots to get gigs. People like you, Blackwood, and Velus Pravus do.
_________________________
.:.gone fishing.:.

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#30291 - 10/05/09 11:07 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 318
Loc: SoCal
Yeah, your right Maw. I get carried away at times. I can't help it: old senile men are just so cute and wrinkly! Look at what you did Aquino, you pooed all over this thread. Go put your depends on.

The thing is, this behaviour from Aquino, believe it or not, is not new. Aquino's man-pussy's been hurt over Myatt and the ONA for the past 30 years or so. In fact, Aquino has "critiqued" Myatt [or I should say: "Stephen Brown"] and the ONA so much that there literally about 3 volumes of Aquino's banterings being distributed and sometimes sold: http://www.heart7.net/set.html

Can't teach an old dog new trick ey Aquino? Actually, if it weren't for these volumes of years of Aquino getting asshurt over the ONA, which the ONA saves, I wouldn't even know he existed.

Aquino is mild now in here; but you should have seen the Aquino in those letters: the lunacy and audacity of some guy who actually believed his imaginary friend actually gave him some infernal mandate which made him better and more authentic than the other two old boyz on the block: LaVey & Myatt.

Now he's paying the LaVeyans a little nostalgic visit for old time's sake, awe how cute. And it's nice that they like him and have put all those years of asshurt hatery under the rug. But if he were to pay the ONA and Myatt a nostalgic visit in Shropshire England, Aquino would prolly get wacked by Myatt's garden hoe or bitch slapped.



Edited by Caladrius (10/05/09 11:09 AM)
_________________________
.:.gone fishing.:.

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#30295 - 10/05/09 11:43 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Caladrius]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3118
Caladrius,
I in fact see no negative aspect in Michael his 3 volumes with critics against the ONA. Even so, he actually can be considered to have a little ONA stance when put in the right perspective...
Wasn't there a certain saying from Anton Long which implied that Satanism is a tool, or even more interpretated broadly that any religion, aspect, philosophy, belief... can be used as a tool?

In this view the ToS which is his "child" can be seen as a certain tool to self-betterment.
Can you claim a title of standing on the "alien elite top" within Satanism for the past 30 years?
His critics are just the necessary tool for the Satanic practitioner to make up his mind, it invites the reader to become critical and aware of certain details. The same can be done with a critical work against "Laveyan Satanism" or against ToS. It is the art of reading over the personal attacking bits and getting to the fundamental critics which can be used against the particular subject. (I will let out a whole lap of text concerning the value of critics if mirrored towards own personal experience and value).

It is also in my view quite childish and not to say quite idiot to attack a person personally because of a difference in views and because of some critics/discussions in the past and present. Every person has something to offer, and I bet that if the three of them meet that they'll have a bloody good time. Difference in vision doesn't imply being each others enemy, and if it is being advocated then you know you are dealing with fucked up people.

Let the adult mind do the work properly, avoid bitch fighting and come up with counter arguments without added "spicy" words and insults. Perhaps spending less time on "mysatan" might be an improvement....

Keep in mind that there is lots of information, and that if you want to understand Satanism properly that you have to explore all the bounderies and views it contains or are linked to.
I wouldn't mind joining CoS (if it was for free or at a lesser membership fee) if I got acces granted to Satanic knowledge and/or experiences, the same goes for joining ToS or... .
It simply is all about the experience and knowledge you gather. And with these 2 things you better thyself and can become someone.. or at least have the tools to get a pretty good life.


Edited by Dimitri (10/05/09 11:52 AM)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#30298 - 10/05/09 05:16 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Caladrius]
Woland Moderator Offline
Seasoned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 763
Loc: Oslo, Norway
 Originally Posted By: Caladrius

Now he's paying the LaVeyans a little nostalgic visit for old time's sake, awe how cute. And it's nice that they like him and have put all those years of asshurt hatery under the rug. But if he were to pay the ONA and Myatt a nostalgic visit in Shropshire England, Aquino would prolly get wacked by Myatt's garden hoe or bitch slapped.


Dear Caladrius.

You would do well to note that we demand the most basic social skills of our members.
Personal attacks and/or flaming will not be tolerated.
I will at this point not issue a formal warning to you, in the certain hope that you will take my criticism to heart.
Your participation in the forum is valued, but a repetition of such pubertesque behaviour as quoted will most certainly have consequences.

P.S.
I am not LaVeyan...
Or Setian...
Etc...
_________________________
Regards

Woland

Contra Mundum!

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#30306 - 10/05/09 10:27 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Woland]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3811
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: "myatt"

The change, the evolution, that we seek to bring about is a natural one; an evolutionary return to what is numinous; a restoration of the balance that has been lost, and this is, in essence, a return to a tribal way of life, a return to and a development of empathy, and a return to the law of personal honour in place of the abstract law of The White Hordes and of the Magian.


If this be his ultimate goal, he's gonna have to figure out how to rid the earth of about 5.5 billion humans; that is the only way we could be 'tribal' as a species. It's a matter of people per square inch, so to speak.

Besides, all in all it sounds like idealistic crap, which I suppose makes sense because if history can teach us anything, it is that idealistic crap sells. To me though, it sounds very unappealing. I enjoy the comforts of civilization.

But ultimately I really just wonder what the point is. How does all this 'subversive' diabolical' 'live in the woods' shit benefit me? Or anyone? Seems a lot of mental masturbation.

For a philosophy that claims to be baseline and raw it sure seems out of touch with reality. And please,to any and all, save the 'but you just don't understand it' line for someone who cares.Wisdom that can 'only be understood by the initiate' is always suspect. I've read volumes of ona material, and gotten plenty of platitude induced headaches along the way.

Anyway, that's my stance on the 'ona'.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

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#30309 - 10/05/09 11:40 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dan_Dread]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"The change, the evolution, that we seek to bring about is a natural one; an evolutionary return to what is numinous; a restoration of the balance that has been lost, and this is, in essence, a return to a tribal way of life, a return to and a development of empathy, and a return to the law of personal honour in place of the abstract law of The White Hordes and of the Magian."

I'm fond of the ONA, but is it the end all answer to everything, hell no. Even the ONA needs to be questioned and broken down into basics. The above quoted material is an example of people being stupid and not understanding that if they believe and follow the above line of bullshit, they are idiot tools.

Myatt is smart and as such he understands history, how tribal and societies work, and how to appeal to mass amounts of idiots who refuse to do any research and just desire to be led around towing a party line without thinking about what the words really say.

So lets break it down...

"The change, the evolution, that we seek to bring about is a natural one; an evolutionary return to what is numinous; a restoration of the balance that has been lost,"

So, its not an evolution he wants, it is actually a de-evolution. He wants a return to a place and time that can never be again. Humans unless nuked, will never willingly go backward in their development. They like their computers, i-pods, and couches and mtv way too much to give it up. They don't believe in a balance, they are only out for themselves and be damnned anyone who gets in the way of their right to the last twinkie.


"this is, in essence, a return to a tribal way of life, a return to and a development of empathy, and a return to the law of personal honour in place of the abstract law of The White Hordes and of the Magian."

A return to the tribal way of life is just a pretty way of saying hey, join my new gang. It's not your family, it's a new group of friends whereby you will feel safe being just another name and number wearing a blue track suit and addaias sneakers.

Empathy, nope. Why should a Satanist have empathy for everyone? Why would one waste the energy when it has no benefits to oneself. Empathy is a tool used to manipulate people into doing things they really don't want to do.

"a return to the law of personal honour in place of the abstract law of The White Hordes and of the Magian."

This is where if you have an idea about history, you go huh???

A return to personal honour/honor. If you are a Satanist and you have no idea about personal honor or how to live your life daily with it, you need a beatdown. A lack of personal honor is a problem the masses of sheep deal with because it has been taught out of their system. They take no responsibility for their actions, and how no idea about how their actions or lack of them affect themselves and their supposed loved ones.

"the abstract law of The White Hordes and of the Magian"

The white horde was/is a name given to certain Mongol hordes. They were about as tribal as you could get, and personal honor was very important to them. Their laws were not abstract, but codified. Hell, if I remember correctly Ghengish Khan could read and write three languages. Mongolian, Chinese, and Turkish.

Now if he is using the terms white hordes and of the Magian to apply to western culture, he's screwed. Those with the power make the laws. Unless he becomes more successful with his indoctronation of idiots to become suicide bombers, its not gonna happen.

I like the ONA, but like everything, you should tear it apart and take the parts that make sense and can stand on its own. Otherwise you are just another sheep, a black one, but still a sheep.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#30310 - 10/06/09 12:16 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2517
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel
... The link [Caladrius] provides leads to slanderous propaganda, the links between its authors and Tos appearing as unfounded allegations. One example of Aquino's iniquity has even been overturned in court.

The reason I'm mentioning this is that Michael probably won't bother replying to it.

Today I took a look back in the 1993 deadfiles at the tedious attacks at the time against the Temple of Set and myself by Christopher Bray in England and Kerry Bolton in New Zealand. I could .pdf my responses/rebuttals here easily enough, but, as quoth Clark Gable, "Frankly, my dear, I just don't give a damn." [And I rather doubt anyone else today does either.]

I will mention only in passing that Lillian Rosoff was never a Setian, never had any contact with me, and withdrew all of her fake claims the moment I contested them in court. As was reported in the San Francisco Chronicle 9/29/94 if, again, anyone cares.

As for Myatt and his "ONA", all I remember about him/it was getting a flurry of unsolicited, badly-written letters in the late '80s from a variety of pseudonyms: "Stephen Brown", "Anton Long", et al. along with supposedly-commercially-published "Satanic rituals", including one for literal human sacrifice. As Britain was in the midst of its own "Satanic panic" in the 80s/90s, this sort of publication was hardly helpful, whether or not it was meant seriously.

And with that I will simply depart this thread and leave the "ONA", whoever or whatever it is today, to those who do care about it.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#30366 - 10/08/09 04:08 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Woland Moderator Offline
Seasoned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 763
Loc: Oslo, Norway
Dear all.

The discussion was heading in a direction not so compatible with the topic of this thread.
I have therefore separated these posts out and into another thread:

Language and communication
_________________________
Regards

Woland

Contra Mundum!

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#30416 - 10/10/09 10:19 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino

As for Myatt and his "ONA", all I remember about him/it was getting a flurry of unsolicited, badly-written letters in the late '80s from a variety of pseudonyms: "Stephen Brown", "Anton Long", et al. along with supposedly-commercially-published "Satanic rituals", including one for literal human sacrifice. As Britain was in the midst of its own "Satanic panic" in the 80s/90s, this sort of publication was hardly helpful, whether or not it was meant seriously.


From the point of view of the old idols of Satanism, I can somewhat understand the reaction against ONA. When people compare what is promoted by ONA with that of the previous major (modern) branches in Satanism, the old guard might appear like a bunch of housewives sipping tea, if I may be so bold to use this kind of metaphor. ONA are indeed the bad boys of Satanism as so correctly described by someone. And of course when there is a satanic panic (who panics?) or you want to have a somewhat shiny badge to display to the outside, bad boys are the last thing one needs. For the same reasons, many people pull out their pen and start writing a defending piece whenever someone does something evil in the name of Satan (in public). Save us from the day that evil should be linked to Satan.

But even when being bad boys, ONA is unmistakably satanic, even if only using Satanism as one of its forms. Heterodox and iconoclastic, not shunning the former concepts or old idols of Satanism in that. Maybe it is the heterodoxy that keeps people blind from seeing the value in its writings. Still, on the memetic battleground, where previous Satanism is slowly losing its potency to grab people's attention; ONA is gaining ground. Maybe also because they opened a door that Satanism in the past preferred to keep closed; politics. If the concepts of herd, Overman and "might is right" are truly upheld, Satanism could only move into a direction that would abhor society and compromise its call for acceptance. But times are a-changing and many people see more value in full self-exploration, actively manipulating or controlling their environment and a real "free ticket" for the predator inside, regardless what label they temporarily stick to it, instead of the somewhat restricted approach of the past. Ultimately it is all about control and at the level of Satanism, the old approaches somewhat limited themselves and due to that, are at the mercy of others.

And this is where the bad boys (and girls) enter.

D.

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#30639 - 10/19/09 04:49 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Diavolo]
Greg Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 25
Loc: France, Paris
I don't think that the ONA find its success because it reintroduces some politics in Satanism. I think rather that it is because of the esoteric speech that Myatt seduced a lot of people,and also because he authorizes whoever according to his doctrine to create his own organization.

Concerning the term of " magian ", it seems to me that Myatt is inspired by Spengler.


Edited by Greg (10/19/09 04:50 PM)
_________________________
A man cannot be comfortable without his own approval.
Mark Twain

http://www.facebook.com/diableries

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#30650 - 10/20/09 11:51 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 318
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel
... The link [Caladrius] provides leads to slanderous propaganda, the links between its authors and Tos appearing as unfounded allegations. One example of Aquino's iniquity has even been overturned in court.

The reason I'm mentioning this is that Michael probably won't bother replying to it.

Today I took a look back in the 1993 deadfiles at the tedious attacks at the time against the Temple of Set and myself by Christopher Bray in England and Kerry Bolton in New Zealand. I could .pdf my responses/rebuttals here easily enough, but, as quoth Clark Gable, "Frankly, my dear, I just don't give a damn." [And I rather doubt anyone else today does either.]

I will mention only in passing that Lillian Rosoff was never a Setian, never had any contact with me, and withdrew all of her fake claims the moment I contested them in court. As was reported in the San Francisco Chronicle 9/29/94 if, again, anyone cares.

As for Myatt and his "ONA", all I remember about him/it was getting a flurry of unsolicited, badly-written letters in the late '80s from a variety of pseudonyms: "Stephen Brown", "Anton Long", et al. along with supposedly-commercially-published "Satanic rituals", including one for literal human sacrifice. As Britain was in the midst of its own "Satanic panic" in the 80s/90s, this sort of publication was hardly helpful, whether or not it was meant seriously.

And with that I will simply depart this thread and leave the "ONA", whoever or whatever it is today, to those who do care about it.



As a note to the casual reader who may pass by here and read Old Aquino's version of this old exchange between him and Mr. Brown. There are always two sides to a story. It would only be fair for ONA to give its version of this old incident which now mostly evades Aquino's aging memory.

These letters - and your replies - are publicly available. They were published, in photstat, in the two volumes called The Satanic Letters of Stephen Brown, by Thormynd Press, in the 1990's.

I do believe pdf versions of these photstat originals are now available on the Net [for free]. The replies of Stephen Brown, to you, speak for themselves. [I would personally suggest anyone interested in ONA to read this old exchange, because in them you learn to see that one person is posing with empty posturing hiding behind delusions and titles, while the other person does have genuine insight who did not even care to be known - thus the nym]

Copies are available from:

http://nineangles.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/ona-the-satanic-letters-of-stephen-brown-i.pdf

http://nineangles.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/ona-the-satanic-letters-of-stephen-brown-ii.pdf


As for badly typed and having incorrect spelling, I do believe you fell for a sinister jape of the kind the early ONA often employed, and which particular jape has been mentioned many times in some recent ONA items,where it is described as a test. A means to dupe the receiver of the item (letter, or manuscript) into making unwarranted assumptions, and thus is a test of whether or not the receiver has any genuine Occult abilities, or at the very least be cautious about making assumptions about someone they had never met in person.

Another early ONA tactic - in those pre-Internet days - was to send out typewritten MSS with a word slightly altered or spelt slightly differently, in each copy sent out, so that if those MSS were later quoted, or reproduced, it was possible to know to whom they were initially sent.


As for the ONA advocacy of culling, the answer to your objections then - as now - is: so what? The ONA is a sinister grouping, which exoterically is Satanic. It advocated, and advocates, culling because this is often the sinister thing to do in certain situations, be such situations magickal, or otherwise.


The ONA enjoins its members and associates - its nexions and sinister tribes - to be a-moral; to transgress the limits set and made by the mundanes (moral, legal, and otherwise), and states that it is for the individuals themselves to make conscious choices in this respect. That there is, and cannot be, for a sinister organization, anyone or any authority "telling them what they can and cannot do".

So, like I said, this makes the ONA sinister - and serves to distinguish them as evil; as what they would say is genuinely Satanic. In contrast, of course, to the ToS and the Church of LaVey thingy.


Edited by Caladrius (10/20/09 11:58 AM)
_________________________
.:.gone fishing.:.

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#30683 - 10/22/09 12:15 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Caladrius]
Greg Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 25
Loc: France, Paris
I think that it's difficult to take seriously Myatt for several reasons. At first it's an extreme right-wing opportunist who invented nothing. His political ideas are resumed to Spengler and Toynbee, his esotericism plagiarizes the order of the Black Lily, Kenneth Grant, Savitri Devi without counting that it deforms totally the synchronicity of Jung.Secondly, the origin of the ONA is completely fictitious, Camlad, Noctulians is myths and the ONA does not exist since 1976 as Myatt claims it. Finally, Myatt assumes in no way its identity of Satanist but that of Aryan, Muslim... by hiding behind numerous pen names
_________________________
A man cannot be comfortable without his own approval.
Mark Twain

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#30686 - 10/22/09 02:45 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Greg]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3118
 Quote:
At first it's an extreme right-wing opportunist who invented nothing.

Might I ask why someone being an extreme right-wing opportunist be a reason to take someone seriously?

ONA introduces very interesting concepts and ideas within Satanism, regardless being it founded post 60-70ies or regardless Myatt writing different articles and essays under different pen names. Does it even matter that Camlad, Noctulians (or other things) are even fictive? Mirroring this on the bible it is quite an innocent act.

Get out of it what suits you best and improves your current ideas and lifestyle, enlighten.
ONA is interesting, but the whole BS and sinister traditions is only intersting enough for those persons who need drama and want to feel important. Even so, my interest in ONA ends with the whole dogfighting-style of discussion and information Caladrius wrote.

It is a perfect example of getting fed up about something because someone said so..
Sometimes I wonder where the real Satanists are who, at least can, make up their mind and state their opinion in own words without referring to someone else...


Edited by Dimitri (10/22/09 02:48 PM)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#30687 - 10/22/09 03:23 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dimitri]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3811
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Watching this word soup passing as a discussion get stirred around and around is making me dizzy.

ONA is it's own thing. It bears little to nothing in common with contemporary Satanism. Who cares?

Why this pressing need to somehow meld the two? Can ONA not stand on it's own feet without hitching a ride on the coat-tails of Satanism?

Really, folks...
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

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#30698 - 10/23/09 06:47 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dan_Dread]
Greg Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 25
Loc: France, Paris
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread


ONA is it's own thing. It bears little to nothing in common with contemporary Satanism. Who cares?

Why this pressing need to somehow meld the two? Can ONA not stand on it's own feet without hitching a ride on the coat-tails of Satanism?

Really, folks...




I agree, we grant too much importance for an esotericism of extreme right which hides behind a " traditional Satanism " (sic!). Myatt has never had the courage to be really a Satanist, he is only a neo-Nazi rebel of cheap junk.
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A man cannot be comfortable without his own approval.
Mark Twain

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#30701 - 10/23/09 09:06 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3811
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Specifics!

Satanism or not aside, this whole conversation, and indeed every conversation I have witnessed here centering on such things as 'ona', 'useful faith', or 'acausal whatever' have taken place purely within the realm of the abstract, of the generalization.

I for one feel that generalizations are the cheap backdoor route of the dimestore mystic.

Of course I am not referring to YOU in this case mah, but as you seem to have been convinced by these people on some level, I apeal to you to bring this into a more tangible realm.

What if anything makes this ONA stuff useful? What are it's applications in the real world?

In what context can it 'help you learn new ideas', and further, what ideas have you learned and in what sense have they benefited you?

I've been looking over this stuff off and on for YEARS, and still lump it in with the rest of the mystical minded hoohaha that the rest of the new agers peddle. Really, what's the difference?

Also, maybe you can tell me if or how this is supposed to tie into Satanism at all? (without redefining the meaning of the word, that is)
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

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#30707 - 10/23/09 10:24 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3811
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

I still maintain what I've said about not being entirely sure about what I'm going to take away from these readings, but I rather expect it will be something different than what was intended by the author. I suspect I could even lose a few taboos in the process, if I'm lucky.

'Taboos' are a very personal thing. Things you personally believe are 'off limits'. Personally I find many of these 'taboos' serve a very useful function, for example it is 'taboo' to fuck your mother. There are of course very good biological reasons why humpin' the mom is a bad idea, and it indeed is bored into our genetic unconscious.
But assuming a 'taboo' could be found in your life that was implicitly hindering your life in some way, in what fashion could ona material serve you better than good old critical self examination?

 Quote:

all I've found of benefit has been a distinct ignorance of taboos and a refreshing aggression towards anything and everything different from itself.

Do not both islam and fundamentalist christianity offer these same things? In what way do you see value here?



 Quote:

What I hope to find are the memetical introns that are left over from my childhood and excise them from my mind. As such, this may be more of an exercise of subtraction rather than addition, but a worthwhile piece of cutting nonetheless.

While I find this to be a worthwhile and even noble goal, I am left scratching my head as to how the ramblings of myatt might help one in this regard. I often root out irrational 'residual' beliefs and opinions through thought exercises and mental scrutiny. Each time I either discover the root of a thought or belief I hold, or discover that there is none to be had, I improve as a whole. Either my belief opinion becomes strengthened and more able to withstand scrutiny, or dead weight is cut away. In either case..a move in the right direction. What does myatt offer to this end that is better than true critical self analysis?

No offense, but you are still dealing in generalizations here. Where is the meat and potatoes?
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#30711 - 10/23/09 11:41 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Greg]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Greg
I think that it's difficult to take seriously Myatt for several reasons. At first it's an extreme right-wing opportunist who invented nothing. His political ideas are resumed to Spengler and Toynbee, his esotericism plagiarizes the order of the Black Lily, Kenneth Grant, Savitri Devi without counting that it deforms totally the synchronicity of Jung.Secondly, the origin of the ONA is completely fictitious, Camlad, Noctulians is myths and the ONA does not exist since 1976 as Myatt claims it. Finally, Myatt assumes in no way its identity of Satanist but that of Aryan, Muslim... by hiding behind numerous pen names


Of course you can read what influenced Myatt or Long in their works. It would be quite remarkable if they came up with all their ideas without a solid foundation of knowledge. But to not take it serious because of, would be the same as saying modern Satanism is worthless because the Satanic Bible is essentially nothing but cheap copy pasting.

Second, the mythos of ONA is the mythos of ONA, at times taking a life of its own. Still, it is a bit strange to hear modern satanists use the incorrectness as an argument while Lavey isn't particularly known for being that truthful about his 'past'. Or at least, that is what the rumor is.

So what are the real objections against ONA? It doesn't jibe with you? Basically it always comes down to that. Maybe that is why it wasn't meant for you.

D.

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#30712 - 10/23/09 01:08 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Diavolo Offline
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In the end, most people are fundamentalists; an (a)religious preference or political choice being of little matter in it. It's about considering an untruth being true or not. The key to this realization is to find your very fundaments and act contradictory if needed. That is Vama Marga. In the end, the difference between two choices is merely a preference or usefulness, while the slaves limit themselves with good and evil, even if presented in more euphemistic concepts like beneficial or destructive, sane or insane. If choice leads to damnation; one was damned to begin with. Fate is implanted in our genetic make-up. The rabbit will never hunt the wolf, no matter how hard he tries.

I see it, like you, as a rebellion of the self against anything, but I include the self. Iconoclasts should first throw a stone at the mirror, then through the window. I personally don't see myself endorsing ONA as much as I present my interpretation on certain subjects. ONA itself doesn't need endorsement. Your interpretation weighted your decision; you are the horse in front of every cart you prefer and all the benefits you'll eventually encounter are your accomplishments. As are your failures; blaming it, or praising it, on anything else is eventually blaming or praising god.

At some levels, the whole rebellion might indeed be seen as a teenage tantrum but this teenager is ancient. The Panchamakara is rebellion; all translation into contemporary culture is identical. The difference with traditional Satanism, and I assume we can rightfully call modern Satanism as such in this age, is that ONA doesn't present limitations, rationally sane or not, but only points to options. Crime; an option. Politics; options...etc. All is just a means to an end; find your end and discover the means.

As such, I don't see ONA; first or next generations, as much as organizations or cults as I see them as tribes. And similarity is not as much in their words or ideas as it is in their approach to life and living.

D.

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#30714 - 10/23/09 01:50 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Greg]
Caladrius Offline
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Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 318
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Greg
I think that it's difficult to take seriously Myatt for several reasons. At first it's an extreme right-wing opportunist who invented nothing. His political ideas are resumed to Spengler and Toynbee, his esotericism plagiarizes the order of the Black Lily, Kenneth Grant, Savitri Devi without counting that it deforms totally the synchronicity of Jung.Secondly, the origin of the ONA is completely fictitious, Camlad, Noctulians is myths and the ONA does not exist since 1976 as Myatt claims it. Finally, Myatt assumes in no way its identity of Satanist but that of Aryan, Muslim... by hiding behind numerous pen names



Diavolo did a nice job addressing Greg's issues. But it's true Myatt doesn't identify himself as a "Satanist" does he. Just like he no longer identifies himself as a "Nazi" we can tell from the many manuscripts he write for his The Numinous Way.

Is ONA a Satanic organization, or a Nazi organization? Or is it, as it has stated time and time again that it is a sinister 'esoteric' organization which utilizes such outer forms like 'Satanism,' National-Socialism, and now "Radical Islam" as a MEANS to and end.

If we keep this "means to and end in mind" and take a closer look at Myatt's activities across the past 30 or so years, since his early days in c18, can we not see a common thread or common 'theme' in all that he has done and written?

Even his Islamic identity today shares that common theme, and if you read closely between the lines, you can see that such Islamic identity he has assumed, or become, is a sinister means to the same end.

There is a great article about Myatt and his Islamic identity. Myatt didn't just become any old Muslim. He "claims" Saved Sect. If you look real close at Saved Sect, those who know Myatt, and the 'esoterica' of ONA will see the common golden thread:

[Quote Article: http://higher-criticism.com/2006/04/salvation-is-just-family-affair.html]

Salvation Is Just A Family Affair

David Myatt is certainly no stranger to ideologies, having been active in the neo-Nazi camp and also founding the hardline British National Socialist Movement (BNS). In 1998, all that changed when he walked into a British mosque and announced his conversion to Islam.

David Myatt’s discovery of Islam is vividly portrayed in an Internet article he wrote for the Saved Sect website. His association with the Saved Sect speaks volumes on the stream of Islam he is partial to.

The Saved Sect, more formally known as the Savior Sect, receives its name from the famous hadith (tradition):

"My nation will be divided into 73 sects, all of them will be in the Fire except for one (the saved sect)…"

Like most other Salafist flavors that derive the idea of a saved sect (al-Firqat un-Naajiyah) from the hadith, the Saved Sect merely claims to represent the views of the saved sect without claiming that they themselves are saved.

Though it is disputed by some, the Saved Sect is widely alleged to be an offshoot of al-Muhajiroun, which was set up by Omar Bakri Muhammad as a front outfit for Hizb ut-Tahrir in Saudi Arabia. Al-Muhajiroun broke away from Hizb ut-Tahrir in 1996 and was officially disbanded in 2004.

Tariq Ramadan (Western Muslims and the Future of Islam) calls Hizb ut-Tahrir a Salafist-Reformist group, with clear political aims to re-establish an Islamic caliphate. The Saved Sect- along with its now defunct affiliate, al-Muhajiroun- do not detract much from this aim. Like most Salafist flavors, the Saved Sect shoulders the burden of establishing dawah (evangelism) to remind Muslims- most of whom they deem to be on the brink of apostasy- about their duties.

Their manifesto also includes:

1. Labeling popular scholars such as Sheikh Hamza Yusuf and Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi as apostates. Not even Saudi-Salafists like Sheikh ibn Baaz or Sheikh ibn Uthaymeen are spared.

2. Positively identifying the Saudi kingdom as the personification of the ancient cult of secessionists known as Khawaarij (seceders). [see khawaarij]

1. Condemning the practice of taqleed (adherence to a School of Thought) that is widespread amongst Muslims to be a "road to deviation, misguidance, superstition and all other forms of falsehood". [see taqleed]

2. Labeling Sufism as a deviant sect. [see bid'ah]

Such lists are hardly novel, since ideologies don’t ordinarily tolerate one another. The Saved Sect’s criticism of popular Saudi sheikhs, for example, ensures hostility from a tireless and well-endowed quarter; that of Saudi Salafism. However, to extend the point about general ideological intolerance, Saudi Salafism does share a common enemy with the Saved Sect. Both groups detest Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi and many conservative Salafists label him as the Wicked Mufti. A Mufti, of course, is an Islamic scholar who is qualified to issue religious edicts called fatwas. Combined with the appellation, wicked, it denotes a person who perhaps issues heretical fatwas.

Sheikh al-Qaradawi’s brand of deviation, at least according to this article, is called Qaradawism. It’s rather unimaginative, but Olivier Roy (Globalised Islam) describes such exercises as entirely typical of ideological groups in Islam.

" …[they] tend to have the same habit as did the Soviets, labeling a ‘deviation’ with the name of the thinker (Suroorism, Qaradawism, Qutbism)."

Aside from having a whole movement named after him, Sheikh al-Qaradawi is also the target of any number of threats. They range from relatively harmless name-calling, like being dubbed a "barking dog" by no less a personage than Sheikh Muqbil ibn Haadee al-Waadi’ee, to out-and-out appeals for his execution. In this, Sheikh Abu Basser at-Tartousi, a man who explicitly styles himself a Wahhabi [1] and christens the Saudi regime as a kafir (Islam-rejecting) establishment, quotes a verdict by Saudi Sheikh ibn Uthaymeen [2],

" …if he [al-Qaradawi] doesn’t repent, he is to be killed as an apostate."

The Saved Sect, however, carefully maintains that it does not,

"…advocate any type of violence towards any particular nation."

Yet, ironically enough, in an article entitled "How Islam will dominate the world", the group recommends several ways in which a state or country can become Daar ul-Islam (the domain of Islam). One of them states that Muslims should,

"…rise, overthrow the government and implement the Sharee’ah by force…"

[1] The original declaration is found in a now-defunct website (www.tibyan.com) whose cached page I have screen-captured for posterity.

[2] His teacher was Sheikh ibn Baaz, Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and one of those who had been educated by a teacher from the family of Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab.

[End Quote]
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#30735 - 10/24/09 05:56 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Diavolo Offline
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The meat and potatoes.

I assume most people have a need for specifics; like ONA helped me prolong my erection or did charms for my sex life before they see value in it. It doesn't really work like this and so it is pretty hard to provide the practical meat and potatoes that could be linked to ONA insights. But let me try without being too specific for a multitude of reasons.

I've never been a law-abiding man. Partly because it is in our culture to do some shady business (country border towns have a tradition at this), partly because I find laws a slave-concept. Now, even when fumbling around, as many people do, the doing so is pretty harmless. Still, it can be seen as crime. Crime is looked down upon in modern Satanism. There is this general attitude it is not a rational approach on living because there is this inevitable risk factor. Gilmore, as an example, is often acting like a grandmother whenever some satanist could be linked between crime and their precious philosophy. "That fellow can be no satanist because we oppose crime!!!"

In the modern satanic concept, crime is looked down upon. Which is somewhat weird. It's almost as if they are hooked to a certain life style and a level of material accomplishments that they fear to lose their Ikea collection. As if their identity is affirmed by a certain societal status. The interesting part of it, practically and philosophically, is that crime is a more rewarding route to either materialism or experience than the average lifestyle. Satanists can be seen as those always looking for the best deal, as most people do, the difference maybe being, that they don't feel bad about it. Still, most live pretty average lives; they go to work, have a pretty normal relational level with their surroundings and work from there. It's a bit like a domesticated wolf; sure it got claws and teeth but it behaves pretty harmless and goes out in the garden to take a crap.

Now mind you, I lived like that too; I occasionally crapped in the kitchen and set my teeth in a couple but on average, I was a domesticated wolf. Why? Plain simple; crime contains a risk element not worth losing my precious accomplishments. ONA did deliver the meat and the potatoes to free myself of those restrictions. Call it an insight rôle; call it whatever you like but once I realized that crime is nothing but an option and in the end, I am not what I own, I found a new approach to living. So, I started building a tribe, moved places and am grabbing control here; from it's underbelly up. Quite heterodox to what modern Satanism stands for, quite normal as an option in the ONA mindset. It serves two purposes; A, the wolf finding its hunting instinct again and acting upon it, B, developing a cancer that increases the odds of destroying that what I detest.

Now I do know the risk element and if things proceed as they do now, I will at one point inevitably get caught and convicted. I am smart and clever in my approach but at one point the probabilities will be unfavorable to me. Thinking it will never happen is denying reality, but even in this, I see nothing but a potential experience. Jail is just another extension of society with a specific code of behavior and as such, a challenge, not a punishment. Societal wrath is a flea in the pelt of a lion. Doing time is nothing but another insight rôle; enforced by your surroundings maybe but nonetheless an experience which should not necessarily be shunned. That insight is another part of the meat and potatoes ONA delivers; maybe not a sane one or rational one, as in how most people prefer to look upon life, but an as rewarding one as all other heterodox actions.

Vama Marga shouldn't be practiced in a comfort zone.

D.

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#30741 - 10/24/09 01:56 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3811
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
So to you the whole thing is reactionary against what you see as limitations in contemporary Satanism? To you ONA is some sort of metaphorical green light to shamelessly live a life of crime?

As a man that was raised on the underbelly of society, and who clawed and scratched my way OUT of that to attain some sense of stability and normalcy, I suppose that appeal will just never exist for me. I already lived through that and just don't see it as a desirable option.

So if THIS is the meat and potatoes...excuses offered to behave like a criminal, I think I will pass on this particular meal.

I have this sense of JUSTICE that is wired deeply into my psyche, ironically enough placed there through outlaw ethics that will prevent me from ever being a thief, or a rapist, or a killer or whatever else. Maybe you might view this as a limitation, but I see it as a strength.

And with that, any passing interest I may have had here vanishes and so do I, insofar as this subject matter is concerned.
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#30752 - 10/25/09 12:00 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
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Shamelessly live a life or crime. Excuse me but that sentence made me laugh. What should I be ashamed about? The opinions of others? Seriously, what kind of master would I be if the fleas would destine my fate? Justice is ultimately the keyword that slaves use to address their problems; a philosophy that endorses might is right isn't too concerned about trivial concepts like justice. Justice is society protecting the maggots that can't protect themselves. In the end, most things boil down to honour. There is this sentence that there is no honour amongst thieves, but let me tell you; there is more honour amongst the criminals than there is found in contemporary culture.

Whether you agree or not agree with me is of little concern to me, as is the fact that your ancestors belonged to that very underbelly. The wolf is either domesticated or acting upon its instinct.

D.

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#30759 - 10/25/09 02:40 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3811
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 Quote:

What should I be ashamed about?

I suppose that depends what sort of criminal you fancy yourself. If you are a thief, and get by on taking things you did not earn, that makes you a parasite. If you are a rapist or con artist, the same applies I guess, only to a greater scale. If the bullshit of myatt has somehow convinced you that there is no shame in being a parasite, have at it I guess.

 Quote:

...as is the fact that your ancestors belonged to that very underbelly

Nobody said anything about 'ancestors'. I've been a part of that same underbelly you endorse not out of some flippant sense of mid-life crisis but out of necessity. There is nothing to be proud of there, and I removed myself by my own hand and effort.

 Quote:

but let me tell you; there is more honour amongst the criminals than there is found in contemporary culture.

Is honour under pain of death truly honour? Besides isn't honour just another limitation to you to be overcome?

If your definition of 'master' is one who disregards everything and lives as a thug perhaps you should pay more attention to black rap ghetto culture, as it would seem to be in sync with what you believe.

Personally the idea of a 'master' devoid of a sense of justice and honour, living as a common street criminal seems beyond ridiculous. But honestly I highly doubt you actually live like that. Talk is cheap.
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#30760 - 10/25/09 03:01 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dan_Dread]
Caladrius Offline
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Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 318
Loc: SoCal
Yes, talk is cheap Dan, and you have done a lot of that here haven't you Dan? With all of your arguing, and debatings, which has really lead you nowhere. As far as the "black ghetto culture" this idea is not too far from an avenue ONA is taking. What do you actually suppose ONA is implying when it speaks of "sinister tribes" or "tribes?"

[Quote Whose Gonna Run This Town Tonight]

Whose gonna run this town, tonight? The short answer: we are, however long it takes to undermine by whatever means the societies of the mundanes and replace their rule of law, and their Police forces, with our law of personal honour and our tribal enforcers.

That is the essence of our sinister strategy: to build a new, tribal-based, way of life in the cities, the towns, everywhere; to break down, to replace, what exists now; and to exult in this breaking down, this replacement; to enjoy the thrill of the chaos, the disorder, that we can and should and will cause. For by doing such sinister things we live life on a higher level than the mundanes; we evolve ourselves; we extend and surpass our limits and we most certainly surpass and discard and ignore the limits set by the mundanes and enshrined in their tyrannical laws.

Let us be quite clear (again); let us be understood (again): we are sinister, in real life. We are amoral. We are feral. We are not playing some sinister game or indulging in some esoteric rôle-play. We are, or aspire to be, outlaws, in real life. We can and will and should use any and every means – however such means are described by the “ethics” and the laws of the mundanes – in order to achieve our personal, sinister, aims, and our sinister Aeonic goals. Nothing of the world of the mundanes is forbidden to us; nothing of the world of the mundanes should restrict us.

In brief, we are new sinister species. A new type of human being. The type who scares the mundanes; the type of being that they fear and dread and who may give their children nightmares, or invoke within those youngsters the sinister desire to be of us, to be like us, to aspire to be like us. For it’s us, and them: us and the mundanes. Their world, or our new, sinister, world.

We desire, we need, real, practical, power: on the streets; in the towns, in the cities, in the villages, the areas, where we reside. We desire to rule, to control, our neighbourhoods, our locality; to establish there our new sinister tribal culture, and we will use whatever means we can and whatever means we desire and which are necessary to establish our feral tribes. We desire in such places to make a name for ourselves; to earn respect and be respected.

We have declared war on the mundanes, for they and all that they have are our resource; and all that supports them and their system – from their laws, their so-called Courts of Law, their Police forces, to their local and national governments – we loathe and detest and regard as our enemy. We are armed and dangerous; and if we are not already so armed and so dangerous, then that is what we aspire to be, and what we should and must be, for we regard it as our natural right as members of a sinister feral species to be so armed, and we would rather die, fighting and laughing and exulting, than submit or surrender to any mundane or to their so-called forces of “law and order”.

The politics of the mundanes – their whole system of governance, their ideologies, their religions, their Institutions – are irrelevant to us. Such things belong in the past; to the mundanes. Our way is the way of personal knowing; of earning, of keeping, personal respect; of personal loyalty to the members of our own local tribe.

Each of our sinister tribes is a law, a realm, unto itself. They set their own limits. They make their own rules; devise their own codes of behaviour. They have their own, individual, tribal aims. They all have their own means, their own ways, of making their mark; of acquiring what they need; of gaining respect and wealth. But they all – each and every one of them – are of us, part of us, by virtue of the fact we are family: a new, growing, thriving, spreading, species; an extended sinister family bound by loyalty to our own kind; bound by sharing the same sinister ethos, the same sinister and feral nature: the same desire to excel; to exult; to grow, to acquire by whatever means whatever we need to survive, to prosper, to live life as it should be lived. We are a family who knows our own kind; who knows who our enemies are, and who are our brothers and sisters.

Thus, we are the darkest, most sinister, sorcery of all; Presencing The Dark by our very lives.

Anton Long
Order of Nine Angles
120 Year of Fayen

[End Quote]


When the ONA speaks of Urban Tribes, it refers to a very practical and pragmatic kind, which only a certain kind of people would be interested in. I really doubt the common "parasite" and dreg of humanity [as you imply] are the type to affiliate with such urban tribes:

[Quote http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090605123237.htm]

'Warrior Gene' Linked To Gang Membership, Weapon Use

ScienceDaily (June 8, 2009) — Boys who carry a particular variation of the gene Monoamine oxidase A (MAOA), sometimes called the "warrior gene," are more likely not only to join gangs but also to be among the most violent members and to use weapons, according to a new study from The Florida State University that is the first to confirm an MAOA link specifically to gangs and guns.

Findings apply only to males. Girls with the same variant of the MAOA gene seem resistant to its potentially violent effects on gang membership and weapon use.

Led by noted biosocial criminologist Kevin M. Beaver at FSU's College of Criminology and Criminal Justice, the study sheds new light on the interplay of genetics and environment that produces some of society's most serious violent offenders.

"While gangs typically have been regarded as a sociological phenomenon, our investigation shows that variants of a specific MAOA gene, known as a 'low-activity 3-repeat allele,' play a significant role," said Beaver, an award-winning researcher who has co-authored more than 50 published papers on the biosocial underpinnings of criminal behavior.

"Previous research has linked low-activity MAOA variants to a wide range of antisocial, even violent, behavior, but our study confirms that these variants can predict gang membership," he said. "Moreover, we found that variants of this gene could distinguish gang members who were markedly more likely to behave violently and use weapons from members who were less likely to do either."

The MAOA gene affects levels of neurotransmitters such as dopamine and serotonin that are related to mood and behavior, and those variants that are related to violence are hereditary. Some previous studies have found the "warrior gene" to be more prevalent in cultures that are typified by warfare and aggression.

"What's interesting about the MAOA gene is its location on the X-chromosome," Beaver said. "As a result, males, who have one X-chromosome and one Y-chromosome, possess only one copy of this gene, while females, who have two X-chromosomes, carry two. Thus, if a male has an allele (variant) for the MAOA gene that is linked to violence, there isn't another copy to counteract it. Females, in contrast, have two copies, so even if they have one risk allele, they have another that could compensate for it. That's why most MAOA research has focused on males, and probably why the MAOA effect has, for the most part, only been detected in males."

The new study examined DNA data and lifestyle information drawn from more than 2,500 respondents to the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health. Beaver and colleagues from Florida State, Iowa State and Saint Louis universities detailed their findings in a paper in the journal Comprehensive Psychiatry.

[End Quote]

What kind of ancestral nerd genes do you have Dirty Dan?


Edited by Caladrius (10/25/09 03:09 PM)
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#30762 - 10/25/09 03:25 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dan_Dread]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1725
Loc: New York
I almost completely agree with Diavolo on this matter.

When such subjects about crime come up, many people tend to jump on the “rapist, murder, petty thief, child molester, and other type of scenarios which in many of our eyes would constitute being a parasite in one sense or another.

When he used the term “Domesticated Wolf,” that really hit me in the gut, because that sums up the way that I feel about myself.

Sure, I rebel occasionally, fight back when attacked, and at times voice my non-conformist opinions to others, who actually don’t much give a fuck. The only saving grace perhaps, is that I know that much of it is bullshit egoism and posturing.

I am willing to admit that I have a great amount of respect for some so called “criminals.”

However, I would also add, that a criminal action in one part of the world, or even a state, is NOT considered criminal in another.

While some “Great Satanists,” including yours truly, go through life eating crow, and putting up with utter bullshit in order to make a middle class living, and go along with the program paying taxes (which just keeps getting higher while the average living standard keeps getting lower, with the occasional putting forth of some verbal diarrhea type protest, there are the true wolves out there making a killing on things such as the black market and the “Grey markets,” living a truly free life style following their own set of rules.

I’m not talking about petty criminals, or small time drug dealers on the street corner, who have rap sheets a mile long. Nor am I referring to individuals who use individual liberty and the “Might is Right,” ideal to satisfy their perversions to hurt others.

It’s one of those situations, where I believe that one cannot throw a blanket judgement on all of the questionable practices that one might do to benefit ones self. Each case deserves its own consideration, and each of us might have to judge it one case at a time.

To give a few examples, was bootlegging truly wrong? It was illegal at one point and if caught one would face similar penalties that modern smugglers face.

Is Pornography wrong? That was also illegal at one point until people like Larry Flint did it, and had the balls to fight for his convictions.

At some point it was illegal for U.S citizens to own gold bullion, yet many did, and profited from it. Were they truly parasites, or wolves?

Same thing goes for Sodomy (Butt fucking) between two consenting adults.

Blasphemy was illegal as well, yet I think most of us agree that we would still do it, if it was still illegal. If we are bashing Islam, then in some parts of the world we are criminals where the penalty might be death.

Also note, that Diavolo accepts responsibility for his actions, and realizes that eventually down the road there might be a price to pay for those actions.



Edited by Asmedious (10/25/09 03:28 PM)
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#30764 - 10/25/09 03:46 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Asmedious]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3811
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Caladrius : All I could think during that long and amusingly ambitious tirade was "what, all 5 of you?", and I got a good chuckle. Have fun playing at that ;\)

Asmedius: There is a big difference between disagreeing with certain laws, (or even the whole premise of state enforced 'law' , as I do) and breaking laws just for the sake of it. Some laws are good, and make sense..following them allows society to function in a way that benefits me. I don't want to have to watch my back at all times, or always pack heat, or have to fight off robbers day to day..as I'm sure you don't. Laws make society, and people that break the ones that interrupt or make society worse, and by proxy make my experience of it worse, piss me off. As they should you.

Admiring people that break the law out of some misguided sense of rebellion for rebellions sake is really just a waste of perfectly good admiration. Is it really a sense of 'toughness/badassery' people like this project or a sense of shortsightedness and ultimately, stupidity? The real badasses do things for their own, much more personal reasons.
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#30765 - 10/25/09 03:49 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dan_Dread]
Woland Moderator Offline
Seasoned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 763
Loc: Oslo, Norway
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
So to you the whole thing is reactionary against what you see as limitations in contemporary Satanism? To you ONA is some sort of metaphorical green light to shamelessly live a life of crime?


A law-abiding Anarchist?
Somewhat sad...


 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
As a man that was raised on the underbelly of society, and who clawed and scratched my way OUT of that to attain some sense of stability and normalcy, I suppose that appeal will just never exist for me. I already lived through that and just don't see it as a desirable option.


A "Satanist" yearning to Conform?
Even sadder...


 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
And with that, any passing interest I may have had here vanishes and so do I, insofar as this subject matter is concerned.


Good idea!
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Woland

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#30768 - 10/25/09 03:55 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Woland]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3811
Loc: Vancouver, Canada

Stability and normalcy != conformity. Disingenuous as usual I see.

And I already explained my views on the necessity of law in society. You would do well to read some mises (or at least this thread) before you pretend to understand what I'm about politically.
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#30787 - 10/25/09 09:55 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dan_Dread]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
I agree with the hostility towards the pretensions of "legal wholesomeness" prevalent in modern Satanic thought; ie, the repetitive mantra of "Satanists would never break the law, because it's just WRONG". Such an approach would be dogmatic and disregard the individualistic approach to morality that characterizes Satanism. I can understand how the likes of LaVey and Aquino were so apt to ape this idea, considering the heavy weight of SRA allegations against them, but I don't consider it the most honest approach. A person is free to disagree with the law. And he is also free to violate that law, provided he fully understands the consequences- ie, if freedom of speech is outlawed, is it "unsatanic" to speak ones' mind? Satanism itself, after all, used to be illegal. In this I can respect the ONA's position on the issue.

But further into the issue, the ONA seems to enthrone extremism for its own sake, as if Satanism inherently requires criminal activity.

So first of all, I ask you who would be so quick to champion this kind of lawbreaking: In our modern quasi-democratic western society, what kind of illegal activity could possibly be worthwhile or productive? How would breaking the law benefit Satanism in any way, shape or form?

Honestly. How would tax evasion, child pornography, arson, music pirating, theft, drug trade, murder, sex trafficking, or *insert generic crime here* aid the Left Hand Path? Or does it merely cheapen a vital occult tradition, reducing it to nothing more than idealogical pornography for short-lived bouts of political extremism, that will usually amount to nothing but empty boasting except in cases where it prostitutes itself to some other popular movement that people actually care about, ie, white supremecism and Nazism?

Things start to sound more ridiculous when they start insisting that a "true Satanist" is incapable of living within the bounds of modern society, as if they should be so extreme and so entrenched in illegal activity that a "normal" life is simply out of the question. (However, it is with the greatest irony that almost all of the ONA's work was carried out under pseudonyms)

This kind of thinking produces two kinds of "revolutionaries":

Firstly, there are the people who actually put this to practice, and usually end up living in some shack or poorly-outfitted commune cranking out pamphlets and occasionally overseeing illegal activity. David Myatt and the "inner Circle" of the ONA (which only constituted a few people) fit this definition at the height of the Order. The "core" of the organization, of course, dissolves within a few years as the members lose interest, get arrested, chicken out (Beest), or join some other radical movement (Myatt).

Then of course, there's the second layer of adherents, being the bulk- that is, the "armchair extremists", the type who claim to detest modern society while at the same time sucking its teat. They're the only reason why the ONA is still considered "alive", even after the core members have long since abandoned it. They publish the MSS, run the blogs, et cetera, and spend most of their time spewing harebrained quasi-nihilistic drivel from the safety of their computer monitors.

Yes, we'd all like to form some Spartan "tribal society" where might is right and annoying weaklings are promptly culled from the better stock, creating a nation made of pure Ubermenschen. And we can keep on dreaming, because the bulk of humanity is far too stupid and complacent to allow anything of the sort to actually happen. Humankind hasn't changed a bit since we first started building mud huts in Sumer tens of thousands of years ago, and no amount of political revolution can change that.
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#30812 - 10/26/09 05:27 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The problem with pointing out options is that people tend to get so lost in the details they remain blind to the big picture. What I do in my life ultimately only has to make sense in my life. That's why Vama Marga, even when walked by more people, is a lonely path. So many people want to be part of a happy family they desperately desire some uniformity in the approach.
You meet people that have close to identical approaches to life; pursue similar goals and although this familiarity is heart-warming at times, one has to let go this need for conformity, even in tribal-sized environments. People either have the same soul or they don't. Their approach and how they exorcise this desire is their choice. One admires them for the fact that they do, not because of how they do it. This respect is in the end nothing but self-respect; if you can't have respect for someone having a similar approach to life, you ultimately have no respect for your own.
On occasions you might form a collective with similar souls. That collective is nothing but people grouping together upon a need base. The only difference in being part of a collective is it being a means to an end while many join groups or organizations as a means to being. It becomes an affirmation of their Self for them.

All criticism aside upon the public acts of ONA or their size; there is one thing one can't deny; ONA has developed an impressive memeplex and once such a MP has come into existence, it does what it must do. This MP is truly sinister and so adaptable it can be considered a predator on its own. It jibes so well with many because it awakens the wolf in them, it makes them see their self-constructed cage and the fact they are too often acting like a dog. They bark when they could howl. It offends others because it shows some just are dogs.

In the end, this is what it is all about; are you a dog or are you a wolf? What type of them you become is of little matter. That again is a matter of choice.

D.

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#30813 - 10/26/09 05:58 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Diavolo]
frazier Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 13
Loc: daphne,alabama,us
i totally agree.to many people are getting caught up in the fine points of of peoples lives.trying to almost mimic them so they feel as though they are accepted.finding people like minded and sharing ideas and life trials gives an incite to why some act or do the things they do.regretfully they turn to that to try and figure out them selves.when they should do what is right to them in their lives.i am proud to say i am a wolf.
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#30817 - 10/26/09 07:35 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: frazier]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
The Church of Satan does not CONDONE illegal activities. This has always been the case because of people like Manson, the Night Stalker and legions of dill weeds who seem to think that doing the crime and then blaming it all on Satan is a sure fire way to gain them the notoriety that they're looking for.

LaVey agreed that we live in a society of laws and the individual chooses to abide by or ignore the laws of the society or community, as long as they consider the consequences, should they choose not to abide by those laws and accept the consequences for their actions. Laws that are made for the public good... Don't park on the right side of the street on Wednesday between 5 AM and 10 AM because the street sweeper cleans that side of the street on Wednesday; Don't drive on the opposite side of the street to avoid being killed or killing someone else... easy to abide by or to accept the ticket for.

Laws that one feels are too restrictive for their own personal tastes that fall into the realm of criminality are laws that one must also consider the consequences for, if they are to be a part of that society or community. BUT if they are to reject the laws and break them, they assume that responsibility on their own and not as the result of belonging to (in this case the Church of Satan) an organization. That organization would have every right and indeed "corporate responsibility" to disavow your actions as any sanctioned activity.

This should be no problem for someone who firmly believes that they should violate the laws of their community or society. If they are man (or woman) enough to make that decision, then it would be logical to assume that they are man (or woman) enough to take that responsibility and the retribution that follows upon themselves without dragging others, who have no desire to be party to their actions, into the fray.

So, if someone decides that they want to break a law or two, more power to them, so long as they realize that the consequences are theirs and theirs alone. With greater risk comes greater reward... at least until you get caught.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#30822 - 10/26/09 09:48 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Jake999]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 318
Loc: SoCal
*Shooh* What a relief. Good thing somebody brought up the Church of Satan, cuz ain't nobody brought it up in this thread thus far!

Jake and the C/S is right guys. You can be non-conforming to the laws of a religion which no longer has power to imprison you because that's just way cool. But please, please be good Satanists and conform to, I mean obey the laws that are backed up by guns and prison bars; it's fun until somebody gets hurt! Or as Grand Magister Blackwood teaches his minions in his latest voice blog: "You can do whatever you want, as long as it's not breaking the law."

This makes me wonder of Gilmore Girl and the C/S would have had the "balls" [gajones en espanol] taught their people to disobey Christian laws back during, say... the "Dark Ages" when merely thinking different was a CRIME punishable by death? When such religious laws were the laws of the "State."

Of course you can say: Well this isn't the dark ages, it's the 21 century! Fine, that's true. Would you, as a Satanist living in an Islamic country strictly under the Shariah, have the gajones to be cool and break one of their religious laws or is nonconformity to religious laws only applicable in places where it is safe to pretend to be "sectarian rebels?"


Edited by Caladrius (10/26/09 09:57 PM)
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#30830 - 10/27/09 12:35 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Greg]
Raffy Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 76
Loc: Chicago
 Originally Posted By: Greg
I think that it's difficult to take seriously Myatt for several reasons. At first it's an extreme right-wing opportunist who invented nothing. His political ideas are resumed to Spengler and Toynbee,


Just what have you been reading, I wonder?

He manufactured a new take on NS which in no way depends on either Spengler or Toynbee, or even on people such as Alfred Rosenberg, but instead evolved NS into a non-racist, commutarian type, system. This is "Reichsfolk" - and what he termed "ethical National Socialism".

 Originally Posted By: Greg
his esotericism plagiarizes the order of the Black Lily, Kenneth Grant, Savitri Devi


Please do some better research. I assume you mean "Dark Lily" in Britain? If not who the hell is or was this Black Lily group or person that most of us have never heard of, so influential are they... Not.

The ONA predates Dark Lily which was just two people, including Magda G, both of whom were actually influenced by the ONA, and both fo whom were in personal contact with "Anton Long".

Also, just what esotericism did the later, now publicly known, work of Magda G actually amount to? Not much. A lot of waffle actually. Contrast that with the complex mythos and concepts of the ONA and anyone of any sagacity will see the difference.

As for Kenneth Grant, just where is the connection?

Where do you find any of the key ONA elements in his or similar work?

Concepts such as Satanism as an individual, amoral, way; or Adeptship involving practical ordeals in the real word. Or concepts such as a nexion between causal and acausal space-time; or ......



 Originally Posted By: Greg
without counting that it deforms totally the synchronicity of Jung.


Have you read Jung? Have you studied the acausal as used by the ONA and Myatt? If so, you have found no connection.

Where does Jung mention acausal energy, for instance? Or the bifurcation of the Cosmos into 4 dimensional Space-Time and an n-dimensional acausal Space-Time? Where does Jung mention acausal energy as that which animates causal life and makes it alive? And so on.


 Originally Posted By: Greg
Secondly, the origin of the ONA is completely fictitious, Camlad, Noctulians is myths


That is your opinion, based on what you desire to believe.

I suppose you are unaware of things such as the interview "Anton Long" gave, in 1973, to a local BBC film crew in Manchester who filmed a satanic rite of one of these groups for a documentary, and which also filmed a rite by another group in that area, the Orthodox Temple of the Prince?

There is other such early evidence.

Also, consider that academic researchers - such as Goodrick-Clarke - who actually did some real background research, accepts this early history of the ONA. As did Professor Kaplan, who possesses a microfilm of old archival ONA and pre-ONA material.

 Originally Posted By: Greg
and the ONA does not exist since 1976 as Myatt claims it.


If you want to believe the ONA doesn't know exist and that its old members have "abandoned" it, fine.

Mr Long still writes ONA material. Myatt is still around stirring things up by various sinister means, and influencing people. The ONA Old Guard - with one exception - are still around, as you might have known if you had bothered to try find them.

That the ONA OG can't be bothered to discuss stuff with mundanes on forums such as this doesn't mean they're not around, hidden and getting on with their work in secret, as LHP adepts have done for centuries.

In fact, the ONA now has more "members" and more "associates" now than ever. More influence. Just look at WSA352. Just look at how it has affected you, and people like you \:\)



Edited by Raffy (10/27/09 12:39 AM)
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#30848 - 10/27/09 02:19 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Raffy]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
In a nutshell, who really cares.
Either you take something from the writings or you don't.

The group is not going to change the world no matter how many rabid fans it has.

Now with that said, some elements are useful. It is up to the individual as to what road they take.

As for taboos, criminal activity, and breaking sharif, that is still an individual choice. If someone tells you do to something just to do it, you are a sheep. If you follow along because it's what an organization tells you to do, you are a sheep.

You are no longer a sheep when you can do and act for yourself without quoting anyone scriptures and take responsibility for those actions.

How actually have you applied the ONA writings to your own life? Or is it just a matter of internet trolling and spewing of facts and numbers?

I can honestly say, that from what I have seen, I do not want any of these idiots as part of my "tribe". I am more particular with those I call my own or would fight for/with.

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
Jail is no joke. I don't feel the need to end up in a place where you have to choose between gangs and have to fight the biggest idiot everyday. Oh, and if your ass is cute, you are going to get extra shit from the guards and other inmates. I don't feel the need to shank someone everyday, and I choose not to have to.

I find it interesting how people crawled up Dan's ass about his life. He lived in the "Dark element" and got out of it. I see nothing wrong with bettering your life through the choices one makes. I am sure that if shit hits the fan, Dan would do whatever is necessary to bring things back around to his version of status quo.

Besides, how many of you are just taking a game of shit and never got your hands dirty. Just because you claim an association doesn't make you a member.

Oh, as for the 352 bit, I think she was banned from here. Came here for a school project at her christian school, and decided to start lying and trying to pull a con. Hell, if the ONA fell for her stupid games, it shows who has a clue. Whatever...

Next....


Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#30861 - 10/27/09 06:08 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Morgan]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 318
Loc: SoCal
 Originally Posted By: Morgan


In a nutshell, who really cares.

[...]

Oh, as for the 352 bit, I think she was banned from here. Came here for a school project at her christian school, and decided to start lying and trying to pull a con. Hell, if the ONA fell for her stupid games, it shows who has a clue. Whatever...

Next....


Morgan



Well, apparently it seems like a handful of people "care" seeing how this ONA thread is 10 pages long.

What we are essentially dealing with - in context to Greg & Raffy - is the perpetuation of Misconceptions and Misunderstandings, and someone [Raffy] who cared enough, on behalf of ONA to dispel those misconceptions and misunderstandings about Myatt; Long, and ONA.

Any person and organization would rightly feel the need to dispel misconception about them or it. The Church of Satan spends a lot of time making sure people know facts about it from speculative misconceptions; and ONA is no different at times in this respect.

You as an individual person have every right to not care and believe such speculative misconceptions, but sometime other people actually appreciate facts... "getting the story straight" if you will.

As for this individual you brought up, she was not banned. Her old profile here still says: "active member." She left on her own accord after being disinterested. There are also speculative misconception in here about her, which differs greatly from objective facts.

Unfortunately, she is college educated. I know many people in here frown at the idea of a girl going to school and learning obscene things like reading and writing or the notion of getting a higher education when they can come to some forum to learn about life and Satanism.

California is weird, unlike hillbilly country. Believe it or not, long ago California was a part of Mexico, and before that it was a territory called New Spain [Spanish Empire].

Well, back in those days they built these beautiful Missions, which were homebases of operation where Catholic priests and Jesuits lived in as they went on missions to convert the native heathen tribes. Most of those missions were consecrated and dedicated to certain Saints.

Anyways, fast forward several hundred years later. California becomes a State in the Union! The little townships that had cropped up around those old Missions, grew into big cities, and most of those cities took the name of the Missions they grew around.

Thus there are cities in California named things like: San Francisco, San Diego, San Jose, and such. Now, you're average hillbilly will see those names and say: Gee, those must be Catholic Cities, since they are named after catholic Saints. This is faulty reasoning. They are secular incorporations of a secular State.

Now, in Southern California there exists a county which is one of the largest counties in territorial size in the country, if not the biggest. It's called San Bernardino County.

Like most non-hillbilly States, California has a system of State owned SECULAR [meaning not religious] Universities. There just so happened to be one such State owned university in San Berdardino CITY. This is the school the person you brought up actually went to. It's called CAL STATE UNIVERSITY OF SAN BERNADINO: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_University,_San_Bernardino

Now, I know the average hillbilly will see that name and notice the "San Bernadino" in it and say to themselves: Gee, it's named after a Saint, ergo, it must be a Christian/Catholic school of sorts \:\) But it only takes a little wikipedia to DISPEL such misconceptions and figure out what this school really is.

Something that only a college aware person would know is that unless you're going for your PHD, a school project usually doesn't last 2 years, or even a year. Being that the person you brought up was educated, and admitted to being a manipulative person, it would seem as though she could have lied when she said it was a "school project" to misdirect people's attention from what she may have been doing in here.

This was a good example of mythos or stories or the memes that compose such mythos having the tenacious ability to perpetuate itself and survive in the right minds that offer the right mental conditions - the kind that doesn't care about facts.

A lot of people do enjoy having half truths and nonfactual conceptions floating around in their heads, but there are some people out there, that prefer to have facts.

Such as the case with ONA. As an organization, ONA does have the prerogative to desire and attempt to offer misinformed people such as Greg actual facts about ONA.
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#30865 - 10/27/09 06:35 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Caladrius]
Woland Moderator Offline
Seasoned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 763
Loc: Oslo, Norway
 Originally Posted By: Caladrius

Unfortunately, she is college educated. I know many people in here frown at the idea of a girl going to school and learning obscene things like reading and writing or the notion of getting a higher education when they can come to some forum to learn about life and satanism.


Dear Caladrius.

You utterly lost me in this posting.
Sad really...

Oh?!!
Could it be misdirection?
Or am I just bored?
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Woland

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#30867 - 10/27/09 06:55 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dan_Dread]
Woland Moderator Offline
Seasoned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 763
Loc: Oslo, Norway
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread

Stability and normalcy != conformity. Disingenuous as usual I see.


The order of Merriam Webster has been invited to your rescue.
You also might want to question that...

 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
And I already explained my views on the necessity of law in society. You would do well to read some mises (or at least this thread) before you pretend to understand what I'm about politically.


Oh I have...
And; you think you have.

Your political "convictions" are GREAT fun to consider.
Especially what seeps through the cracks.
Thanks to the ever glorious hell that provided us a sense of humour...
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Regards

Woland

Contra Mundum!

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#30870 - 10/27/09 08:55 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Caladrius]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
 Originally Posted By: Caladrius
As for this individual you brought up, she was not banned. Her old profile here still says: "active member." She left on her own accord after being disinterested.

"Active member" merely means a poster has between 600-1199 posts, and in this instance is a misleading title.

The profile for LUCIFERIFIC shows that that account hasn't been logged in since May 18 2008, since making a goodbye post, though that doesn't of course rule out any anonymous lurking.

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#30872 - 10/27/09 10:49 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Caladrius]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
I wrote who cares in regards to what people think in regards to this topic. The ONA is not for everyone, and thus quarreling about it is pointless.

The individual chickie was an idiot, and still is. As for you defending her, I find it quite silly and beneath you. Besides, it now seems like you are actually a newbie to the whole ONA, and are just parroting what you have been told.

I don't need a lecture on California, its going to slip into the ocean in a few years anyway. Those missionaries built their churches on the ashes of other cultures. You either converted or were killed.

Who cares she went to college? So did I, I have multiple degrees. I still don't understand your point, besides I am a woman too. Big Fucking Deal.

Her project lasted because she started to make money with it.

As I stated before and yet you refuse to answer, so what?

What have you done with the teachings, have you applied them to your life or are you just another arm chair troll?

Have you ever gotten your hands dirty or do you just talk a big load of shit?

Do you have ideas of your own or do you just quote scripture?

Your failing now, come on.....

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#30880 - 10/28/09 05:31 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Morgan]
Raffy Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 76
Loc: Chicago
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
The group is not going to change the world no matter how many rabid fans it has.


Depends what you mean by "change", and "the world", and ultimately what one believes or assumes is the purpose, if any, of the life of an individual.

To just say that a certain group is "not going to change the world" is somewhat simplistic and seems to represent one person's personal view, or opinion.

The ONA is about individual change by using certain esoteric means, which individual change can, over long periods of causal time, provoke or be the genesis of some change among other individuals and among those causal forms or abstractions or constructs which affect large numbers of people.

But the main emphasis is upon individual change.


 Originally Posted By: Morgan

As for taboos, criminal activity, and breaking sharif, that is still an individual choice


Quite so.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
If someone tells you do to something just to do it, you are a sheep.


I think you may have misunderstood one of the fundamental principles of the ONA.

The choice to do stuff - whatever it is - belong to the individual. No one tells anyone to do anything. Nothing is expected or demanded. There is no dogma. That's the whole point.

It's about individuals taking responsibility for themselves and making conscious choices.

The ONA suggests that this, or that, may be useful and may or can produce individual change (toward the sinister) and may or can create a certain sinister character in individuals.

This is suggested because many others in the past have done "this" or "that" and it worked, for them.

The ONA does not care if someone does not want to follow the ONA way - it even doesn't really care if someone does. It's down to the individual.

They can take what they want, or not.

The ONA is elitist -it is not for everyone; it is not meant for everyone.


 Originally Posted By: Morgan

You are no longer a sheep when you can do and act for yourself without quoting anyone scriptures and take responsibility for those actions.


I think we're basically "on the same page" here - so maybe you have misunderstood the very basis of the ONA, for we abhor "scriptures" and dogma.

There are loads of ONA items about individuals working things out for themselves; and

But the essence is that the ONA exists and works in the real world - person to person. It's about doing stuff in the real world; sinister magick; sinister deeds.

What's on the Internet - what people read - is not that important. It's now a useful way of infecting others with certain memes - that's about it. It's now a useful way of inspiring a few individuals to do sinister stuff. That's all.

Were all ONA material to be wiped off the Internet overnight, it would not matter to us. Like someone said recently, it's not what you read or write about ONA that makes you ONA, it's what you do, with your life, in the real world.

Like TS Eliot wrote:

 Quote:
And what you thought you came for
Is only a shell, a husk of meaning
From which the purpose breaks only when it is fulfilled


The ONA expects each individual to find their own meaning in their own time in their own way by doing practical stuff.

The ONA is just like one good map of one particular territory - it can assist you in reaching your goal, but you have to make the journey yourself. We're not even going to go along with you to give you a helping hand - it's down to you.

Why, you may even end up revising the map yourself, and making a better version of it. Which is great, and which is exactly what's wanted.

Why, you may even want to venture forth into unexplored territory and make the first map of it. That would be great, and would be, for us, "job done".


 Originally Posted By: Morgan

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.


The sinister idea is not to get caught - to be smart, and, if you do get caught, then to use jail as another opportunity, another learning experience. To learn from your mistakes.

Anyway, been there, done that, got the tatt.


 Originally Posted By: Morgan

Oh, as for the 352 bit,


So who cares about someone's Internet opinion of someone else?

The point is that 352 - and other ONA nexions like them - exist in the real world, and are doing stuff.

The Internet is a useful tool, but can also be a means to pretension and self-delusion, which pretension and self-delusion often are or can became an excuse for inaction, for not doing stuff of the sinister/satanic kind.

To quote TS Eliot again:

 Quote:
Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge?
Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?
_________________________
Those who are not our sinister brothers or sisters are mundanes

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#30886 - 10/28/09 07:49 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Raffy]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Raffy, I will try to explain myself again.

Change the world means just that. You are not going to get a bunch of people to form tribe worldwide, or fund space travel. What you have currently is a bunch of armchair dolts who spew information but lack the ability to put it into practice. It doesn't matter if the Memes are wonderful and great if who they touch sits on their ass all day. Honestly, how many would you put into your tribe? How many would you be willing to fight with or for?

Yes, the individual change, this we agree on. As it was my main point.

"ONA does not care if someone does not want to follow the ONA way - it even doesn't really care if someone does. It's down to the individual.
They can take what they want, or not.
The ONA is elitist -it is not for everyone; it is not meant for everyone."

No Shit, this was my main point, did you even read all of the writings on this thread or just jump in?

My main contention with this thread at this point, is newbie ONA associates spewing shit with no understanding of what it means. Going on and on, quoting shit, without understanding it or getting their hands dirty with its full meaning.

Fine, then do the crime don't get caught. Honestly, how many idiots do stupid shit everyday. Most of the masses can't help but get caught, and other idiots who thought they were all bad ass and sinister, shit those guys end up in there too. Fine, so you did the crime and got a tat, do you want to go back? or was one time enough?

Whatever in regards to the 352 idiot. I found it amusing that she was being defended by one who didn't even know the whole story.

I think you need to sit and spend sometime reading the whole thread Raffy.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#30889 - 10/28/09 08:26 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Morgan]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
All in here are probably able to defend themselves but I think the interpretation that Caladrius is somewhat a newbie that doesn't know the whole story (which makes one wonder about whole stories an sich) is as an interpretation not that accurate I guess. But then again, interpretations are just that; interpretations and all in their own right serve a purpose.

To address the issue that Dan somewhat got ridiculed for living a life in the safe-zone. I think the fact that he got ridiculed is not so much for his choice as it is for him so vehemently disagreeing with all choices that are not his choice. His shamelessly living a life of crime reminded me of those priests sitting at their chancel trying to terrify their flock for shamelessly living a life of sin. As such, it was highly amusing, especially when encountering such ideas in the circle of sinners. As Woland so gently pointed out, there seems to be a discrepancy between the anarchistic Dan, and the other Dan that seeps through the cracks of his fortress. Amusing but really not worth the time to get too deep into for me.

As for ONA newbies spewing shit they don't understand or without getting their hands dirty, we encounter the problem of interpretation again. What exactly is an ONA newbie and how does one recognize them? And what specifics should be provided so see if they get their hands dirty? Would a severed head on a silver platter do or are we willing to accept merely a photo of such an act?
In a world of words it is amazingly hard to provide acts and if, for what very reason should anyone do it? To prove themselves? To who and for what reason?

D.

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#30892 - 10/28/09 09:45 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Morgan]
Raffy Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 76
Loc: Chicago
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Raffy, I will try to explain myself again.


Thank you. Civilized exchanges become those of our kind.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Change the world means just that. You are not going to get a bunch of people to form tribe worldwide, or fund space travel. What you have currently is a bunch of armchair dolts who spew information but lack the ability to put it into practice.


I agree, absolutely - which is why I, and others such as I, seldom engage with this Internet, and if we do it is only for a limited time or for a specific sinister purpose. We try to spend more time in the real esoteric world of nexions, tribes, and of individual LHP guidance.



 Originally Posted By: Morgan
It doesn't matter if the Memes are wonderful and great if who they touch sits on their ass all day. Honestly, how many would you put into your tribe? How many would you be willing to fight with or for?


Hey, I sense a kindred spirit, here...

Writings, words - whether on the Internet or not - are just writings, words.

But they may inspire a few people or more, every year, to actually do stuff, in the real world, and it is this real stuff that matters, that is important; that may and can change this mundane world of ours, over periods of causal time.

Let's not forget that the ONA - like the Church of Satan and the Temple of Set - managed quite well before this Internet.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Yes, the individual change, this we agree on. As it was my main point.


And individual change is the raison d'etre of the ONA.


 Originally Posted By: Morgan
No Shit, this was my main point, did you even read all of the writings on this thread or just jump in?



Yeah, I read them all - how boring - but it seemed to me necessary to emphasize - and clarify - certain points about the ONA. Perhaps I was mistaken in this...


 Originally Posted By: Morgan
My main contention with this thread at this point, is newbie ONA associates spewing shit with no understanding of what it means.


Fine, and again I agree, but what some newbie says on some Internet forum is just their point of view, however stupid or immature it may be. This could be a good learning experience for them, especially if they come across someone who takes them to task, who bursts their little bubble.

So, it's good for them, and so - give 'em hell. They will either rise to the challenge, and learn, or they will not. If not, then they won't get very far; they are failures.

It is a selection process. Part of their boot camp, if you like.


 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Going on and on, quoting shit, without understanding it or getting their hands dirty with its full meaning.


Yes, you are right.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Honestly, how many idiots do stupid shit everyday.


The point of ONA amoral, illegal, stuff is that it is consciously done, for a sinister purpose. That it's a learning experience. Part of a process of individual self-development that takes years.

It's a rational, willed, act - cold and calculated, if you will. That is, really sinister.

So, if some idiots do stupid stuff because they have read about doing such stuff somewhere, then so what? They may learn from it, or they may not - it might make them stronger, or it might destroy them. We don't care, because we are sinister. Because the responsibility is theirs.

It is a selection process. Those who are really "of us" will do such things consciously, coldly; and they will succeed, learn; change; gain understanding and skills. These will be the minority.

So if many others do shit and fail, they fail.


 Originally Posted By: Morgan

Whatever in regards to the 352 idiot. I found it amusing that she was being defended by one who didn't even know the whole story.


Would that be the "whole Internet story" as described here? \:\)

Well, I do know of and about some of these WSA352 people through personal contacts - and this in the real world.

An Internet opinion about someone is just an opinion which is often formed by the illusion of "knowing" that the Internet often gives.

But such sophistry aside, the point is that WSA352 is an ONA nexion - and what people of or associated it may say on some Internet forum or other, is just their personal opinion, their view, which may or may be mature; and which may or may not be immature or silly or even stupid. Like I said previously - maybe if they are being silly they will find this out, and learn from it; and maybe their silliness is only part of their own growing process.

It - such silliness - can sometimes even be a type of sinister jape, to get people to react a certain way; to encourage a dialectic of learning in some, here in cyberland, and maybe even prompt a few toward "us".

But quite often, it is just silliness, and immaturity.

But in the final analysis, if they're part of your family, your natural instinct - your duty, even - is to defend them, to side with them, against "the outsiders", even if they are being rather silly and immature, sometimes. That's just how it works, for our sinister kindred.
_________________________
Those who are not our sinister brothers or sisters are mundanes

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#30894 - 10/28/09 12:36 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Raffy]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3811
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Ok, this will be my last post in this thread because frankly, I just don't care about this particular brand of idealistic sillyness.

But to clarify a couple of things, number one I have seen and done things that would make most of you shit your pants. That you choose to interpret my words to suit your purposes, that my stance on society includes prefering those that participate in society rather than try to undermine it puts me 'in the safe zone' than so be it. Society serves me, as it does most of you..the difference is I am not a hypocrite about it.

That the word 'anarchism' carry's hollywood connotations to some of you, and that you can't make sense of anarchism supporting society rather than attempting to undermine it with pipe bombs and black flags isn't my problem. It's not up to me to do your homework for you. Try researching Market Anarchism and austrian economics.Read some mises, rothbard, tucker, many others. I assure you there are no 'cracks' for any "other Dan" to peek through. There's just me, and my worldview is wholey internally consistant and does not rely on any armchair idealism or pie in the sky fantasy that seems to be peeking it's head out in this thread.

I deal in the real world, as it is, and manipulate it to my ends. Pretending it is something other than it isn't, or trying to reshape it to what you think it should be is just another flavour of idealism. I prefer reality.


And with that, I leave you all to your games.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

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#30898 - 10/28/09 12:52 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Morgan]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 318
Loc: SoCal
"What have you done with the teachings, have you applied them to your life or are you just another arm chair troll?

Have you ever gotten your hands dirty or do you just talk a big load of shit?

Do you have ideas of your own or do you just quote scripture?

Your failing now, come on
....."

I didn't realize I was being interviewed for a job. Am I dress proper... do I have anything in my teeth?! I hate interviews. Are you still accepting applications lol. You want me submit a resume with that like how Aquino did for me? We gunna play which girl has the biggest tits game now? Are we gunna take turns? You gunna go next and present your intimate life stories and achievements to me for validation too!? This is exciting, I love slumber parties! Should we talk about our boy problems too while we're getting intimate and personal?

Stop for a moment and ask yourself WHO is asking me these questions. You - a Mundane - who has absolutely nothing to do with the ONA, wants to play me and make me prove myself to you. As if you were a sanctified judge of "Satanic" non-armchair pragmatism? As if I need validation from you - a stamp of approval from a mundane who doesn't even appreciate facts over self-perpetuating myths.

There is this very old legend in the British Isles about about birds called Caladria which have a certain gift. When a king or person is sick and the or a Caladrius looks upon their sick face, the bird takes that sickness into itself healing the king or person, and flies away.

Those who are genuinely affiliated with the underground ONA kulturkampf knows who I am by name; knows what ONA has done for me; and knows what I have done for ONA. The only people that don't are outsiders. In regards to outsiders such as yourself, I am the type of person who does not cast her pearls before SWINE; to have them trampled on by such as yourself.

I did not come into this thread to talk about myself, or get people to talk about me and my private beliefs. If so, I would have used my real name - as you do Morgan - and I would have spoken often about my personal beliefs and worldviews.

But, if you haven't notice I specifically try 98% of the time to stay within this ONA thread for a reason. Most often in this thread I just post ONA MSS for a reason. When I do speak, I present ONA ideas, and opinions, for a reason. There is a reason why I focus on the ONA and not myself here.

I am in this thread as one of many representatives of a Corporation if you will - on the job, if you will. This Corporation I represent is in the business of manufacturing memes and memplexes, which is our product. I am here to help 'infect' your mind, and those of casual readers with the basic memes of this said Corporation if you will. To use your field of awareness as a billboard if you will, and to help generate these 11 pages of talk... for personal reasons.

You are a women prone to extrapolated assumptions, and you fool yourself into believing such assumptions are factual. Such as the assumption that I or we [ONA] do not know Kayla of 352 personally. Wasn't she calling some of you in here arm-chair Satanists 2 years ago, if you can recall? Wasn't she attacking some of you with these same questions and accusations two years ago?

Such as the assumption that I am a newbie without my own thoughts. Had you taken the time to read current ONA MSS you would sooner or later realize that the essence of "my" thoughts imbues or supplements most MSS dated 120 yf by whoever.

Such as the assumption that I and or ONA affiliates in this thread are armchair variety "Satanists." It fascinates me, how you being in New York, completely oblivious to what is the underground "culture/tradition" that is the ONA and its "going-ons" would assume to know what it's individual units are doing with their lives in the real world. That you can pass judgment and assume to know the personal and private details of how ONA has changed and affected my/our life or if, where, and when I/we put it into practice.

But correcting these extrapolated assumptions of yours is absolutely beyond the limits of my interests. As I implied, I am not here to change your mind, or force you to accept facts over your misconceptions, or talk about myself and personal life and doings in the real world. I am simply here to make people like you talk 11 pages worth of stuff about ONA. To argue it, debate it, ponder it, hate it, decry it, accuse it, maybe praise it; and even see value in it. And if you see no value it than its no great loss. Maybe some causal passer-byers who will one day stumble onto this thread will see some value. The only value you have to me is you talking/posting/responding/debating in this thread over ONA related subjects.


Edited by Caladrius (10/28/09 01:09 PM)
_________________________
.:.gone fishing.:.

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#30903 - 10/28/09 02:15 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Caladrius]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1725
Loc: New York
 Quote:
Stop for a moment and ask yourself WHO is asking me these questions. You - a Mundane - who has absolutely nothing to do with the ONA, wants to play me and make me prove myself to you. As if you were a sanctified judge of "Satanic" non-armchair pragmatism? As if I need validation from you - a stamp of approval from a mundane who doesn't even appreciate facts over self-perpetuating myths.


Yes, we “Mundanes” require proof if someone claims that a philosophy or idea works for them. Otherwise it’s just a bunch of idealistic babble.

We may mean nothing to you, and you may mean nothing to us (me) but you chose to give us pages and pages of fluff, smoke and mirrors, while claiming that you do not care if we are convinced or not.

So what is your point in posting? I understand that you don’t care if we (I) can comprehend your reasons for posting or not, but if you truly don’t care about our opinions then what is the point to you being here.
Again, I know that my question holds no interest to you.

So if you get your jollies by having people respond to your nonsense, then you just got a freebie.

Cheers.
_________________________
"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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#30905 - 10/28/09 02:55 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Caladrius]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
You are funny, you want everything you say to be taken as rote and not questioned. I like how you call me a Mundane, you don't know me, my past, or any involvement I have in anything past or present.

I did my 20+ mile walk almost 10 years ago.

I don't care who you are, you mean nothing to me.

I did ask if you put your words into action, yet you go on and on without saying anything.

You still don't even understand what you read.
Silly girl, I have been one of people in favor of the ONA.

You still don't get it.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#30909 - 10/28/09 05:32 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Morgan]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Ladies, let's not turn this into a cat-fight, even when we males might enjoy such an event.

The matter of fact is that both don't seem to know the other too well and that acting upon this partial information doesn't really contribute to this thread.

Of course accusations like 'noob' or 'mundane' tend to evoke the lovely demons in us but when keeping the initial intention in mind, I don't think that the release of these demons outweighs the benefits of temporarily controlling them. Me and Morgan go back ages, for the good and the bad, and Caladrius is blood which runs thick so I'd rather not be forced to pick sides, especially because it messes up my intentions. So I'm not going to demand anyone to do anything but I'd love a certain degree of etiquette.

And Morgan my dear; "been in favor of" sounds as if it is in the past. Don't tell me you abandoned the dark. ;\)

D.

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#30918 - 10/28/09 09:55 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Diavolo]
Raffy Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 76
Loc: Chicago
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
The matter of fact is that both don't seem to know the other too well and that acting upon this partial information doesn't really contribute to this thread.


From "our" (ONA) point of view, the point here is that we have personal knowledge of the person involved, and so defend them, because they're family.

But in an important way, you're right - because what someone may post on some forum on the Internet may give a misleading impression of them, and lead to people making silly and hasty judgements about them, as seems to have happened here regarding some people judging the girl from 352 who used to post here.
_________________________
Those who are not our sinister brothers or sisters are mundanes

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#30932 - 10/29/09 03:14 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Asmedious]
Raffy Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 76
Loc: Chicago
 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
Yes, we “Mundanes” require proof


There really is no such thing as "proof" out here in cyberland - only in the real world when you know someone, in person.


 Originally Posted By: Asmedious

So what is your point in posting?


Spreading memes. Trawling for those attuned by nature to "us".

Not to mention some people like just having fun, with mundanes.

Not to mention some might use it as a learning process - gaining skill in sophistry, dialectical discussion, etcetera.

There are other reasons, of course.
_________________________
Those who are not our sinister brothers or sisters are mundanes

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#30985 - 10/30/09 12:50 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Caladrius]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3118
 Quote:
Well, apparently it seems like a handful of people "care" seeing how this ONA thread is 10 pages long.

There is a difference between caring for something and knowing something. I know my deal of ONA, yet don't care what it is doing. Maybe voicing an opinion when asked about a certain situation, yet still not a sign of caregiving.

 Quote:
You as an individual person have every right to not care and believe such speculative misconceptions, but sometime other people actually appreciate facts... "getting the story straight" if you will.

No story can be or will be told right since it is dependend on the story-tellers view. Objective truth is an idealistic term which is used common, but once taken in a closer perspective fails to work.

 Quote:
Unfortunately, she is college educated. I know many people in here frown at the idea of a girl going to school and learning obscene things like reading and writing or the notion of getting a higher education when they can come to some forum to learn about life and satanism.

Going to college doesn't mean a thing. It's what you do afterwards with the acquired knowledge. Yet, there are many people who go to college and get a high degree, neverless fail in life because they lack insight and skills.

 Quote:
There are also speculative misconception in here about her, which differs greatly from objective facts.

I assume that those "objective facts" came from her directly? Ever thought she might have given it a twist so she doesn't look brainless? Try to take an objective view yourself, make your own judgement and don't take things for granted because someone told you so.

@ raffy
 Quote:
There really is no such thing as "proof" out here in cyberland - only in the real world when you know someone, in person.

There actually is if you look further then facebook...
Internet was created as a manner for scientists to connect and share informatons, keeping collagues up-to-date with the newest discoveries. If you look hard enough you will find publications which can back-up your statements and proof you are right.

 Quote:
From "our" (ONA) point of view, the point here is that we have personal knowledge of the person involved, and so defend them, because they're family.

Because you have personal knowledge of a person you are considering him as a family...
Interesting, but what with a life-long rival of yours who suddenly joins your family? You can easily say he is fake... but what with the other "family members"?



Edited by Dimitri (10/30/09 12:57 PM)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#30998 - 10/30/09 04:31 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dimitri]
Raffy Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 76
Loc: Chicago
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

There actually is if you look further then facebook...
Internet was created as a manner for scientists to connect and share informatons, keeping collagues up-to-date with the newest discoveries. If you look hard enough you will find publications which can back-up your statements and proof you are right.


First off, we were, as I understand it, writing about an opinion someone forms about someone else based on what is written by or about that person on the Internet.

The operative word here is opinion. It is therefore not about the exchange of non-personal information which can or which could be verified by non-Internet means, such as printed books.

My contention was and is that any opinion formed about a person based on words about, or even by them, on the Internet is suspect, and that you cannot really know someone based on Internet-only exchanges.

To know someone, one has to met them in the real world, beyond this cyberland, and get to know them in the real world.

Cyberland positively encourages mundanes to make rash judgements about others,

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

Because you have personal knowledge of a person you are considering him as a family...


Yes, because they are family - they become part of our kindred when they join us and have shown their loyalty by deeds.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Interesting, but what with a life-long rival of yours who suddenly joins your family? You can easily say he is fake... but what with the other "family members"?


It is a question of individual judgement based on personal knowledge. Trust is earned over a period of time, by deeds done, and loyalty being shown.

It's how successful elitist groups (including Occult ones), successful underground subversive groups, successful "criminal" organizations, and successful gangs, have always operated, in the real world.
_________________________
Those who are not our sinister brothers or sisters are mundanes

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#31019 - 10/31/09 05:18 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Raffy]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3118
 Quote:
First off, we were, as I understand it, writing about an opinion someone forms about someone else based on what is written by or about that person on the Internet.

Quite a bad way of judgement IMO, I can act like a troll if I want to yet be one of the A-class scientists in the world and most humble person IRL. Internet contains much shit, a few pearls hitherto but only able to spot when the right bullshit filters are activated.

If you only base yourself on someones behaviour as written by a secondary person, then it is a bad judgement and an indication you are nothing but a brainless sheep!

 Quote:
The operative word here is opinion. It is therefore not about the exchange of non-personal information which can or which could be verified by non-Internet means, such as printed books.

When voicing an opinion one should be able to give facts and information to have his opinion biased. An unbiased opinion is worthless.

 Quote:
Yes, because they are family - they become part of our kindred when they join us and have shown their loyalty by deeds.

Smells like niggery to me.
What exactly is your "kind"? People who share the same philosophy? People who listen to some chief who tells others hat to do? A family always contains one or two alpha beings who says the do and dont's. When submitting yourself to a gang or group you are submitting yourself to their rules (even tough they claim to have none, there still is something called social supression and basic behaviour describing the group) thus limiting your freedom.

 Quote:
Yes, because they are family - they become part of our kindred when they join us and have shown their loyalty by deeds.

Out of interest: what kind of deeds?
(this btw is the perfect example of the limitation I described earlier)

 Quote:
It's how successful elitist groups (including Occult ones), successful underground subversive groups, successful "criminal" organizations, and successful gangs, have always operated, in the real world.

Elitist groups always tend to fall apart after a period of time, too many people join and want there share deal of the price. Thus the group is getting bigger and bigger, the "big-ones"think they are the masters yet forget that with the increasing number of people that the loyalty is fading and the group suddenly collapses after a couple of events. Nothing remains afterwards except maybe a few oldies wanting to relive the "old days" and die anyway with maybe doing a few things to get attention.

ONA as I see it is Myatt ALONE. Groups as WSA 352 and others fail badly in it's true ways. Myatt had (as I call it) the power of singularity on his side, pretending he wasn't alone ( and in the end wasn't) was but an illusion to make it look big.
The fact of pretending to have a number of people behind you covering your back is but a strategy to get enough attention and wreak havoc. It is also a strategy used in Guerillia warfare, when groups get too big they tend to split up for:
- better control
- strategic plans
- making sure that the people remain loyal to the ideology and not start to think for their own thus hurting/damagind the clan altogether.


Always learn to think and make a biased opinion for your own, never let anyone dictate you something. When in doubt about something or someone; join or get as close as you can to the subject without hurting/limiting yourself and start making up your own mind.
Own research is the best way to acquire intelligence and knowledge then pre-chewed literrary vomit someone else spews your way.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#31021 - 10/31/09 06:16 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dimitri]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
When reading this reply I somewhat get the impression of someone desperately wanting to look smart in the eyes of others but sadly, doesn't seem to get further than the very desire to do so.

The very point was that forming an opinion about someone based upon a short interaction with them on a forum, or chat for that matter, is not necessarily a correct opinion. So we can leave it at that and somewhat disregard your comments which seem to be nothing but some sort of masturbation.

Second, and this somewhat amused me; the claim that elitist groups always fall apart. Before you vent such an idea, I suggest you either check out the Mafia or the Yakuza as an example. Both are groups that base their initial structures on famiglia or oyabun-kobun in case of the Yakuza. Both are also groups that base their interaction on their own code of honour. And both are extremely successful even when society is at a constant war with them and thus triggers inevitable shifts in membership.
If you move to extreme environments, you will find similar codes of honour in interaction and similar applications of family. In the biker environment, as an example, members regard the other as brothers and also act upon a personal concept of honour. In the army, especially combat units, similar concepts can be found, even when not necessarily expressed in similar terms or that clearly. Anyone every participated in any of those families surely knows what I talk about.

The concept of famiglia in ONA can be seen, even when heterodox to the egocentric perspective of modern Satanism, as a reintroduction of this very successful principle, not only applied because it is so highly successful, but also because it comes natural. But unlike other structures, famiglia in this case, should not be seen as a top-down hierarchy because ultimately, the structure only consists only out of alphas, even when some might be young or require a degree of guiding.

D.

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#31022 - 10/31/09 07:04 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Diavolo]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3118
 Quote:
Before you vent such an idea, I suggest you either check out the Mafia or the Yakuza as an example. Both are groups that base their initial structures on famiglia or oyabun-kobun in case of the Yakuza.

The only reason why the mafia anf yakuza didn't fall is because they made small groups within their inner structures.
The mafia in reality is in fact a name given to different groups who work in similiar ways.
Or from wikipedia:
 Originally Posted By: wikipedia "maffia"
It is a loose association of criminal groups that share a common organizational structure and code of conduct. Each group, known as a "family", "clan" or "cosca", claims sovereignty over a territory in which it operates its rackets – usually a town or village or a part of a larger city.


 Quote:
Second, and this somewhat amused me; the claim that elitist groups always fall apart.

To be honest, I stand my ground on that claim. The falling apart doesn't need to be instantly, a few decades can pass, a bit of degeneration of the basic ideology and some time later it is but a term/group from the past.

 Quote:
The concept of famiglia in ONA can be seen, even when heterodox to the egocentric perspective of modern Satanism, as a reintroduction of this very successful principle, not only applied because it is so highly successful, but also because it comes natural.

Agreed, at least with the "comes natural" bit.
A human on itself is always egocentric. Even when working within a clan or a group, even when being the most loyal to the idealogy. At almost any moment there will be the idea of "what is my position here, and how do I get noticed/ better/..".
The family structure within ONA indeed is natural, the only negative aspect is the predescribed respect one should give/have towards other members, something I can't live with... I'm kinda fond of my freedom of mind.

 Quote:
If you move to extreme environments, you will find similar codes of honour in interaction and similar applications of family.

Might be, never been in some sort of "family" or clan-like group, but I still find it somewhat retarded to live by codes of honour as described by others. I have my codes of honour (inspired by maybe a few clans and from which I thought made sense) and I live by them, no need to swallow pre-chewed vomit designed as some three-star meal and feel moved about it. Vomit still is vomit.

 Quote:
The concept of famiglia in ONA can be seen, even when heterodox to the egocentric perspective of modern Satanism, as a reintroduction of this very successful principle, not only applied because it is so highly successful, but also because it comes natural. But unlike other structures, famiglia in this case, should not be seen as a top-down hierarchy because ultimately, the structure only consists only out of alphas, even when some might be young or require a degree of guiding.

One simple remark, since ONA consists out of alpha individuals, then why on earth is David Myatt being pushed forth as the frontman and almost masturbated on as some kind of prophet.
Equality is an illusion, officialy you can say that anyone within is "equal", but I'm bloody well sure that when it comes to real life terms there is some social unspoken hierarchy. I know the human psyche too well to not fall in that bullshit-hole.

 Quote:
The very point was that forming an opinion about someone based upon a short interaction with them on a forum, or chat for that matter, is not necessarily a correct opinion.

Hmmm, might have misunderstood it yesterday.. wasn't quite that able to focus.
The possibility to form a correct opinion about someone even when the interaction is quite short is there. There are indications in someones writing to know what he/she really is (indications varying from the style of writing to what is actually written). It is easy for me to spot (for example) the new members here who aren't going to thrive long here even when you or others congratulate him/her with their "interesting introduction" and "apperently good-looking knowledge".

You only have to learn to see these things, and I know you can't.


Edited by Dimitri (10/31/09 07:13 AM)
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#31023 - 10/31/09 07:26 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dimitri]
Raffy Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 76
Loc: Chicago
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

Quite a bad way of judgement IMO


Diavola has made some good points in reply to you on this topic, and since (1) answers to all the questions you asked can all be found in various ONA material, recent and otherwise; and (2) the basis of your arguments have been refuted in the aforementioned, and other, ONA items issued over the past quarter of a century, I personally see no point in pursuing the topic further here.



 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
as I see it is Myatt ALONE.


A resurrection of Aquino's silly and long-disproved claim, I see.

But if you want to believe that, fine.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Groups as WSA 352 and others fail badly in it's true ways.


Fail in what way? On the Internet - which is where I assume your "knowledge" of them derives from?

Since you almost certainly lack personal knowledge of these people - in the real world - your opinion is just your opinion based on Internet-only information, and therefore requires no further comment from me, as we return in a circular manner to what I wrote in my previous reply regarding such types of opinion.

Which circular return further justifies me making no further comment, since everything that required saying on the topic, by me, has already been said.

As someone wrote:

 Quote:
We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.



So, it is AoB from me, as certain individuals are wont to say.
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#31025 - 10/31/09 07:51 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Raffy]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3118
You come across as some drone repeating the same sentences over and over again... anyway let me point a few things out.

 Quote:
Diavola has made some good points in reply to you on this topic, and since (1) answers to all the questions you asked can all be found in various ONA material, recent and otherwise; and (2) the basis of your arguments have been refuted in the aforementioned, and other, ONA items issued over the past quarter of a century, I personally see no point in pursuing the topic further here.

I am well aware of these things, but I'm interested in your personal interpratation, not the vomit others have written. Show me you have thought about the writings (if you have done so), show me your interpretation.

 Quote:
A resurrection of Aquino's silly and long-disproved claim, I see.

On the contrary, if I'm not mistaking there is an article of Anton Long/ Myatt where he admitted that for a certain period of time that he ALONE was the ONA. You really should get yourself more informed... (Link will follow)

 Quote:
Since you almost certainly lack personal knowledge of these people - in the real world - your opinion is just your opinion based on Internet-only information, and therefore requires no further comment from me, as we return in a circular manner to what I wrote in my previous reply regarding such types of opinion.

As long as I don't see,hear or read any news-item involving them I consider it as a failure in real-life. Focusing on WSA: Kayla has spread out here whole life on the internet, together with some information which can be quite damaging. Internet is a trashbin (as Diavolo likes to say) and sadly enough when the right trash is being used it becomes a little weapon to manipulate and even supress people...

Internet is an informationsource, and using the correct information can enlighten people.It can even have give a clear view of things IRL, many people are unaware of the amount of their doings they shared with others online. But I bet you didn't know that... you should have listened to your grandparents or parents about the dangers of internet.




Edited by Dimitri (10/31/09 07:53 AM)
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#31027 - 10/31/09 09:24 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dimitri]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
On the contrary, if I'm not mistaking there is an article of Anton Long/ Myatt where he admitted that for a certain period of time that he ALONE was the ONA. You really should get yourself more informed... (Link will follow)


For a while, I was the Order of Nine Angles, although I expect few, outside of our sinister kindred, will understand what I mean here. Most - and certainly all the mundanes - will assume I mean I was the only person "involved with" some-thing called the ONA, but this is a fallacious assumption, since even from the early days there were always around a dozen or so people "involved"...

Questions for Anton Long by WSA352

D.

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#31028 - 10/31/09 09:51 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Diavolo]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3118
Looks like I forgot the rest of the article, admit my mistake.
Ans apologies for the one-liner which now is transformed into 2 sentences.
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#31030 - 10/31/09 11:39 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dimitri]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
To address some previous matters. I think you have a hard time understanding some things.

The perspective you have upon ONA, Myatt and family is, to use an analogy, like looking at modern Satanism as a group with Gilmore, since Lavey died, as its leader. I can assure you that many modern Satanists would rather perform oral sex on a coyote than consider Gilmore their leader. Any Satanist realizes that modern Satanism is just a label that describes a certain philosophy and that anyone regarding themselves as a modern Satanist does not make them a member of anything and as such, does not shift anyone in a position of leadership. The same is true for ONA.

What ONA presents is a message, what ONA is, is a means of communicating this message. What the role of AL is, is being a communicator. It can't be said simpler than this.

But as all too often, simple is too complicated for most people and they have a hard time understanding things if there is no similarity to that what has been popularized in their brain. Thus ONA has to be some sort of organization with followers and leadership; that being Anton Long who must be idolized as such. They can also not understand that different clans, tribes or families form, based on need or desire, and define their own modus operandi. One can easily operate alone in life if that is what one wishes. What all these people share is what I call blood. There is no grand global hierarchy spreading their tentacles and rulebooks to every tribe or individual who find themselves in the very message.

As for honour, loyalty and respect. It is easy on the internet to claim how limiting these concepts all are and how sinister one is for doing things their way all the time. But these are bedtime stories. Codes of conduct are to be found anywhere. Even here, with all the freedom of mind you pretend to have, you know very well how to behave and what to say to whom. Failing at it will quickly show you the door; about the kindest consequence that can happen to you in real life. Everyone submits to a certain code of conduct if it is beneficial. If you disagree, I invite you hereby and I'll guide you to some places one evening. You can freely speak your 'mind' to the others there; behave according your own unique principles and call vomit vomit and bullshit bullshit. I can assure you already you will not make it through the night. Neither would I if I behaved like that. If respect was not beneficial, the concept would not exist.

As such, an individual that has based his life on his code of honour will have no problems being honourable to anyone living according a similar code. If that is limiting… well then what else could I do but sigh? Loyalty does not even need to be discussed, people having no loyalty, have no honour to begin with.

D.

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#31162 - 11/03/09 04:05 AM Ona Auction [Re: Diavolo]
Khk Offline
member


Registered: 09/07/08
Posts: 398
There is an ONA/Occult Auction taking place on eBay with dozens of rare books and manuals, etc. Seller’s name is ‘Wyrdactic’

Check the templeofTHEM Wordpress for details.


Edited by Khk (11/03/09 04:57 AM)

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#32623 - 12/07/09 08:16 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Fist]
Conrad Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 9
The notorious Fenrir journal has resurrected itself and is up to no good:

http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/fenrir---issue-i-120-year-of-fayen/8034656


Oh yes, indeed, pseuds.

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#37634 - 04/15/10 01:54 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Fist]
Conrad Offline
Banned
stranger


Registered: 10/04/09
Posts: 9
Not again!

http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/fenrir---issue-i-121-year-of-fayen/10284556

Damn right, suckers.

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#105187 - 01/22/16 06:53 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Morgan]
Czereda Offline
senior member


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 1762
Loc: Poland
 Quote:
Myatt is smart and as such he understands history, how tribal and societies work,


I don't think that anyone living in the West, in a nuclear family and enjoying the comforts of democracy can really understand what tribal living implies. There is the tendency to idealize things. It's not a matter of history. Tribal societies do exist nowadays, not only in primitive cultures. Muslim countries, India and also Albania come to mind. In such tribal cultures the ancient codes of honor or rules of conduct replace or exist parallel to the official codified laws. They were usually passed orally from generation to generation throughout the centuries and became written down much later like, for example, Albanian Kanun. These ancient laws regulate all aspects of social life, often in a very detailed way, so it has nothing to do with happy anarchy as some Myatt's readers or fans tend to think.

Now this:
"this is, in essence, a return to a tribal way of life, a return to and a development of empathy, and a return to the law of personal tribal honour in place of the abstract law of The White Hordes and of the Magian."

Fixed. Those ancient tribal laws put a lot of emphasis on honor but not on personal honor but the honor of a clan/tribe. Say your kin attacks and rapes a girl from another clan. This other clan swears a bloody vendetta but not just on your kin, who committed a crime, but on the whole of your clan, including you and your children. You think your kin is a scoundrel and as such he should have his throat slashed, but you have no other option than to stand on his side and fight that other clan. Your personal sense of justice, your personal sense of honor don't matter because that other family doesn't give a damn about it. It's a group responsibility. When it comes to revenge, any member of your family will make a good target.

A more extreme case are honor killings in the Muslim societies. The tribal way of life is not about having your own personal code of honor. It's the code of honor of your clan and the rules that stem from the culture you were raised in that you have to conform to. Transgressing the honor code results in serious consequences, often a death sentence. Honor killings are done for petty reasons and women are murdered for such trivial things as wearing too "provocative" clothing or not being submissive enough. Then there come mafias who also function as old-fashioned tribal societies. Breaking their besa, omerta or whatever they call their oath of honor means death. You give your life to your tribe. It's a one way ticket.

Living in clans can have its perks as your family members can give you a job, lend you money, help to raise your children, take care for you when you're old or otherwise help you when you're in trouble. It's all nice if your large family is not dysfunctional. Otherwise, tough luck. In the Muslim countries honor killings are lightly punished or not punished at all. Now, if you are a Muslim immigrant living in the West, you can move out but, if your family takes their "honor" seriously, they can track you down, throw acid in your face, gang rape you or kill you all for dishonoring your blood. And no cops, no state laws will be able to protect you from your own kindred. Honor killings happen regularly among Muslim immigrants in the West. They are often kept secret by the police and referred to as domestic violence because the authorities are afraid of the social unrest, anti-Muslim protests etc.

Is democracy rotten? Perhaps, it is. Are tribal societies better? I don't think so. For sure, both the Western model and the tribal cultures have their advantages and drawbacks. But the tribal way of life is not idealistic as Myatt describes it. Just like the politicians and the government can make your life difficult, the same is with the members of your family if you are forced to depend on them. Their stupid and arbitrary rules can turn your life into a nightmare.
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O9A Meme Cat

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