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#26361 - 06/27/09 06:47 PM Yet Another ONA Thread!
Fist Moderator Offline
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Since this came up as part of another thread I thought it deserved it's own post.

Many neophytes come here seeking the secret knowledge of the ONA. Others claim ONA affiliation while knowing little more about ONA than what they read on the Blackwood site. What I can't really get my mind around is how much reasonably correct information can be found on the internet.

A quick google of "Anton Long, Combat 18, BNP" yielded what follows. I can neither confirm nor deny any of this. I simply offer up as a thing found on the internet, which in some cases is much like a thing found in your belly button. However, I do believe that it of some value and may explain a few things that I thought people in this game just knew.

To wit:

As lifted from http://www.cosmicbeing.info/rumours/wells-nine-angles.html

Note, 01.10.09, by PointyHat: The following article was originally written by Jeff Wells, and published on his Rigorous Intuition blog in August 2005. Since it is, in my opinion, one of the most interesting articles written about Myatt, I reproduce it in full here, even though there are several factual errors, about Myatt, in the article. For instance, the Interview once in the Hexagon Archive was with Stephen Cox, not Myatt; Cox was never even a member of the ONA (let alone its leader); and his Occult group had no connection to either the ONA or Myatt.


Nine Angles of Separation


“ In the mid-90s, in an essay entitled “Death Before Dishonour,” British neo-Nazi political philosopher David Myatt wrote:

To live and act like an Aryan - that is, with nobility of character - means upholding and living by this principle of Death Before Dishonour. Nothing else is more important - not personal happiness, not personal love, not personal comfort and wealth. This principle expresses the spirit, or ethos, of the Aryan warrior, and to be Aryan means to live like such a warrior, for however short a time.

Also, in “The Divine Revelation of Adolf Hitler”:

Quintessentially, the revelation of Adolf Hitler has rendered all other religions obsolete. For this is the first and most important revelation of the cosmic Being - of the purpose of the cosmic Being. Other religions now belong to the past; they are historical curiosities…. All these religions are earth-bound; they do not seek to fulfil a Destiny among the stars, bringing more life, more consciousness.

At about the same time, Anton Long, Grandmaster of the British-based “traditional” Satanic group the Order of Nine Angles, wrote:

We uphold human culling as beneficial, for both the individual who does the culling (it being a character-building experience) and for our species in general, since culling by its nature removes the worthless and thus improves the stock. Naturally, there are proper ways to choose who is to be culled - each victim is chosen because they have shown themselves to be suitable. They are never chosen at random, as they are never “innocent.”

Two years ago, in “The Perspective of Islam,” radical theoretician and al Qaeda apologist Abdul Aziz wrote:

The majority of Westerners condemn martyrdom operations on the basis of the Western perspective, using Western criteria, failing to understand the Muslim belief that this life of ours is only a means, a test, and thus failing to understand that many Muslims are willing to give up their own lives in order to do their Islamic duty, trusting as these Muslims do in the judgement of Allah…. Our life here on this planet we call Earth is only an opportunity - never to return - to gain entry into Jannah and that one of the best means to gain such entry is to strive, and if necessary die, in the Cause of Allah.

What do these people have in common? Everything. They - and many more, besides - are the same person. Let’s call him, for simplicity’s sake, David Myatt. But what he is, there’s nothing simple about that.

Combat 18 is a neo-Nazi org formed in 1991 to provide hooligan muscle for the racist British National Party. (Its “18″ numerically represents “AH,” the initials of Adolph Hitler.) Myatt has described himself as its political philosopher.

There’s much suspicion, on the both the left and right, that Combat 18 “was created by Britain’s internal security service MI5 to discredit the BNP while acting as a honey trap, or sting operation, designed to attract the most violent neo-Nazis in Britain into a single organization, where they could be monitored more easily.” Its leader, Charlie Sargent, who was sentenced to life imprisonment in 1997 for the murder of another member, was also an alleged Special Branch informant.

Combat 18 splintered, with Myatt founding the most radical faction, the National Socialist Movement, which remained loyal to purported informant Sargent.

In 1999 NSM member David Copeland conducted a racist nail-bombing campaign which killed three people and injured 129. Myatt’s “A Practical Guide to Aryan Revolution” was particularly formative to Copeland’s thinking. In a profile of Copeland, BBC’s Panorama determined:

…the man whose ideas had more influence than most on Copeland was David Myatt from Worcestershire, founder member of the NSM and its first leader. He once said the Nazi movement needed people “prepared to fight, prepared to get their hands dirty, and perhaps spill some blood.”

And though Combat 18 splintered under suspicion of members’ motives and loyalties, it isn’t quite finished yet being a bloody nuisance. A headline yesterday from Northern Ireland (where Combat 18 is reputed to be used by MI5 to infiltrate Loyalist paramilitaries): Neo-Nazis have threatened me, says Ulster assembly member John Dallat, who has received threats from Combat 18 to burn down his house and torch his office.

The Hexagon archives records an encounter with the unnamed leader of the “Order of Nine Angles” - apparently Myatt [ Not, in fact, Myatt: See Editorial Note, above] - who supposedly co-authored a book with associate “Christos Beest” which likened the ONA “to a modern equivalent of the German Thule Society, precursor of the Nazi Party and responsible for a number of assassinations of dissenters…the reader is lead to believe that the group are busy ‘culling human dross.’”

Hexagon, while refusing to disclose the name of the leader, found “a nucleus of four middle aged men surrounded by up to ten younger aspiring acolytes, again all male. The group [ unnconnected with the ONA: see Editorial Note, above] uses homosexual rites and although they may well have contact with the far right are highly unlikely to be capable of carrying out numerous murders as darkly hinted at.”

In The Song of a Satanist, “Stephen Brown” - yet another Myatt pseudonym - writes:

Most Satanists cannot publish an autobiography, or even have a biography which relates their life in detail while they still live, for the simple reason that it would probably render them liable to prosecution by those asinine guardians of the even more stupid system of ‘Law’. (Plus the fact that most wish to continue their sinister esoteric work in secret, to aid the sinister dialectic.) If this threat does not exist, then their life has not been Satanic enough.

Another demonstration of the convergence of fascism and occultism is found in the ONA’s Temple 88, which is described as an instantiation of the “aryanist and national-socialist ideas/ideals of the Order of Nine Angles.” The writings of “Temple 88″ are recommended for higher initiates, having “reached the seventh stage (Saturn) of the septenary Tree of Wyrd,” who are “assumed to be able to judge and understand why the usage of national-socialism and aryanism is implemented in the Order of Nine Angles ideological structure.”

And what are the Nine Angles? A ceremonial means to manifest the “Dark Gods.” And perhaps not surprisingly, here’s where things get Lovecraftian:

The details that Lovecraft gives regarding ‘calls’ and rites are mostly fanciful and only in a few places does he inadvertently reveal the truth - for example, in his mention of the trapezohedron and ‘Azathoth’. The key to travel along the passages between the star nexions is the Nine Angles and the key to the Nine Angles is the crystal tetrahedron which is activated by voice vibration. ‘Azathoth’ as described by Lovecraft, is a symbolic and distorted re-presentation of the intersection, in acausal space-time, of these astral star passages: a kind of galactic vortex or node. Those who journey there never return the same. Along the star passages the shells of long dead civilizations lie strewn. The Nine Angles (the key to contact both physical and astral) are re-presented in the septenary Star Game and it is through this symbolic re-presentation that the magick of the Dark Gods is made manifest. The rest, to the uninitiated, is sheer terror.

(Lt Col Michael Aquino has authored the Lovecraftian “Ceremony of the Nine Angles” for the Temple of Set, but disavows Myatt and the ONA’s public embrace of human sacrifice.)

And since we’ve come this far, let’s remind ourselves: according to the ONA, where do these “Dark Gods” reside?

The acausal universe itself may be described as that aspect of the cosmos bounded by acausal time and possessing more than three spatial dimenions; the causal universe may be described as that aspect of the cosmos bounded by causal, or linear, time and possessing three spatial dimensions at right angles to each other. The entities known to esoteric tradition as the Dark Gods are beings which exist in the acausal universe. Other such beings probably exist in the acausal realm, but the Dark Gods are known to us through having, at various times in our evolution, ‘intruded’ into our spatial universe.

As I’ve noted in an earlier post, the “acausal universe” recalls Michio Kaku’s Parallel Worlds, in which he writes that “anyone who can tap into the fourth spatial dimension (or what is today called the fifth dimension, with time being the fourth) can indeed become invisible, and can even assume the powers normally ascribed to ghosts and gods.” And interestingly, one of the things David Myatt may be said to be with some assurance is a student of physics.

In 2000 Myatt reputedly converted to Islam, and quickly became an advocate for al Qaeda “martyrdom operations.” Though as he had often done, Myatt hid his previous associations by assuming an alias. He became “Abdul Aziz.”

This story from February 16, 2003, entitled “Midland Nazi turns to Islam,” was one of the first to make the connection between the “Koranic scholar,” the neo-Nazi and the occultist:

A “Satanic Fuhrer” who urged neo-Nazis to fight a race war has turned full circle to become an Islamic fundamentalist.

Midland-based David Myatt, 51, was the political guru behind white supremacist group Combat 18 and has been the leading hardline Nazi intellectual in Britain since the 1960s.

Now the self-confessed Pagan and Adolf Hitler worshipper hails al Qaida leader Osama bin Laden as his inspiration and praises the World Trade Center attacks as acts of heroism…supporting suicide missions and urging young Muslims to take up Jihad.

“Turning full circle” always sounded to me like a lot of fuss to create the appearance of motion, while returning to one’s starting point.

Is Myatt an agent provocateur, a shit-disturber who can’t settle upon a radical philosophy, something more, or something less? It’s difficult to assess motive, but consider that he has been arrested numerous times for such things as writing and disseminating “practical terrorist guides” on suspicion of conspiracy to murder. These cases have always been dropped due to “lack of evidence.” Does he enjoy protection? The record is suggestive that he does. And if it appears so, then we should ask the next question: Why?

One Muslim internet user told the Sunday Mercury that Myatt, who has an IQ of 187, had convinced other users he was an Islamic scholar with his eloquent arguments backed with Koranic verses. He said: “After September 11 Abdul Aziz’s messages started to become more extreme.

“But because he wrote with authority, many less-knowledgeable Muslims thought he was a holy man and began supporting his fundamentalist views. When his true identity was revealed by other users on the site, he changed his online name to Abdul bin Aziz and then al Haqq.”

Myatt may seem to have flitted from one politico-religious philosophy to another, but there is a terrible thread of continuity and rigour through his life and writings that suggests he is much more than a disingenuous provocateur. Naziism and Islamicism have served, in turn, as modalities of disruption for what remains at core an occult working to sow general chaos and division - the necessary passage of “Helter Skelter” to break down the Old Order, before the founding of the New.

So again: whose interests are served by there being a David Myatt? Is he is own man - or men - or does he belong to someone else? Or is it something else - an intelligence service perhaps, or something, say, acausal? ”
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I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#26386 - 06/28/09 01:37 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Fist]
Mike Offline
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Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
Hm...I always wondered how there was a connection between neo-nazism and Satanism. I always thought the National Socialist Movement had something to do with the JoS. I read I believe on a website where con artists are revealed that the supposed leaders of the JoS were once members of the National Socialist Movement. Does this mean that the radical beliefs of the JoS are somehow related to the ONA?
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#27130 - 07/15/09 02:17 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Mike]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
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The Joy of Satan certainly have no relation to the ONA.

The ONA was a British group formed from the merging of avant-garde LHP occultism, neo-heathenism, and far-right extremism. The inner members were pretty much batshit insane, but you can't deny that they had an incredibly complex and intelligently-planned system.

The Joy of Satan, on the other hand, is an American group formed by a bunch of hicks whose understanding of Satanism does not go past infantile diabolism. Whereas the ONA was clearly balls-deep in western esoteric tradition, the "magick" of the JoS is limited to guided meditation and ESP-parapsychology nonsense.

It also deserves mention that the JoS is explicitly Theistic, calling Satan "Father Satan", praying to demons, believing in a literal afterlife in Hell, etc... not to mention their Sitchen-based UFO theology. The ONA, on the other hand, seemed to posit that the "Dark Gods" were abstract extra-dimensional principles representing chaos and acausality (not unlike the anti-cosmic beliefs of the Temple of the Black Light) The ONA also stated that any group claiming "direct revelation from Satan" is bullshit (the reason they ragged on Michael Aquino for his "Crystal Tablets")-- which is exactly what the JoS claims, since its' high priestess says that Satan personally speaks to her on a regular basis. (Seriously, she needs mental therapy or something)

As far as "extremism" goes, the ONA had clear links to several radical organizations connected to violence and illegal activity. While the Joy of Satan also has connections to white-supremecist/neonazi groups, they are not nearly as "extreme" as the ones the ONA dealt with.

For one, the JoS's neonazism is flagrantly out-in-the-open, and consists of a bunch of hick racists and Klan-types who like to hold public rallies and parade around in SS uniforms, yet have never had (to my knowledge) any problems with illegal activity.

Overall, the ONA has garnered a bit of byspoken reverence from the neonazi community, whereas the JoS is generally a laughing-stock. If the ONA were still active, though, I would imagine that they would use the JoS as a source of potential recruits.

=============

As far as Myatt goes, I have several reasons to believe that he is Anton Long:

1. Links to the same violent far-right extremist organizations

2. Both were initially involved in Heathenism/Neopaganism

3. Tendency to jump from framework-to-framework to further personal/racial/aeonic agenda

4. To boot, Myatt's website looks like a carbon-copy of the ONA's site.

Although, I'm pretty sure that Myatt has moved past the ONA for good, for the purpose of advancing his own ideas. Where the other original members are, I have no idea, but I do know that Christos Beest (co-author of the Black Book, writer of the "Invocation to Hilter" and artist of the Sinister Tarot) got scared and ditched the ONA because of its' extremism, recanted his racist/far-right views, converted to Christianity, and now spends his time composing classical piano suites and painting pictures of flowers, birds, and sunshine-y landscapes. I'm not fucking kidding. At least his art has gotten better.

The original ONA has "gone back to being completely underground", which is occult code for "defunct". I suspect a few second-generation members still publish ONA manuscripts online and carry their banner, but the departure of the core members pretty much gutted the group's foundations and connections to other organizations, rendering it little more than a loosely-knit group of occultists following in their footsteps.


Edited by The Zebu (07/15/09 02:22 PM)
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#27175 - 07/16/09 04:03 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: The Zebu]
Diavolo Offline
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I agree that Anton Long is probably Myatt but if or if not does not matter too much. I disagree however that they, or he, is batshit crazy. It's probably a lot easier for people to handle the heterodoxy of specific works or forms in dismissing them, or their creator(s), as crazy as to think, experiment and discover the genius of it all and how different approaches are really rather similar takes on an identical concept.

Myatt's early works are indeed situated into what is easily looked upon as the Neo-Nazis of western culture. I don't think it can be defined that simplistic but it seems to work for society to throw all upon a pile and slap the Nazi logo upon it to either scare people away from specific ideas or limit the potential and opportunities. After all, Nazism is the devil-word of the 20th century. And like with the original devil, the bad vibes and fear it creates distracts the people of the other agenda the Lefties are pushing down upon us.

ONA is a different approach to Satanism and at some levels one that is more loyal to the original Vamamarga than most of current Satanism. It is a choice to take that path but choice here is of course limited to them either being able to make that choice or not being able to not make that choice. A large part of current Satanism is situated in what I see as spiritual Satanism; considering oneself a Satanist only by assuming one is. It's a bit like role playing; a roll of the dices ending in 3 sixes makes people take the satanic identity while a different roll might have made them a communist or an egalitarian street fighter (in identity). It's not hard, reading a couple of pages here and there and people are what they believe to be. Most old timers surely know what I mean when I talk about those easily claimed instant identities. They also know that contrary to what many believe, Satanism doesn't end with learning to recant some basic principles. Consider ONA as the heterodox path in Satanism. A bit strange that Satanism itself also has paths it considers heterodox to itself but such seems to be the case.

Even Myatt's Muslim form I don't see as that strange compared to the rest of his writing. I'd say it mixes real well with the previous ones and the core is always identical in all.

All in all I find ONA the best thing Satanism delivered in the last decades. It however should be looked at as an advanced course. One that is free to take but hard to finish.

Is ONA defunct? Only if you look at it in the wrong manner.

D.

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#27469 - 07/24/09 11:49 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Diavolo]
bluj666 Offline
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Registered: 07/14/09
Posts: 38
Loc: Tennessee,USA
I really dont know how devoted to the occult or Satanism the ONA or David Myatt really was. Personally I think Myatt/Long was tring to capitalize on the growing interest of teens and those in their early 20s in Satanism and the occult as a way to recruit. If you really look into the ONA and its teachings it was very militant and Nazi oriented. The Black Mass was a ritual done in the name of Hitler, Human sacrifice (assination) was very much incouraged, to become an adept one had to isolate themselves in the wilderness for 3 months (with basically nothing. no food, water, literature ect). They also seemed to protray a respectable, bad ass hero figure of sorts much as hitler did to recruit his Nazi followers and as the US government did with media to get citizens to enlist in the army in times of war. Also the ONA played on my aspects that are appealing to individuals with "teen angst" or sever anger at the world as the Nazis do today with the music scene of punk and metal i.e. an outlet, eceptance, a "goal", revenge and or a somewhat heroine figure.
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#27475 - 07/25/09 01:45 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: bluj666]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
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Can you try the spell check feature? Maybe a dictionary? Some of our foreign users can spell and put together sentences better than you can. Get it together, or this bluejay will be flying the coop.
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#27494 - 07/25/09 06:41 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: bluj666]
Diavolo Offline
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I don't see how the devotion or intention of a creator matters to the value of a system. That is rather similar to devaluing the writings of Nietzsche because at one point he lost his sanity or because he maybe wrote it all to solve some psychological issue.
I don't think the intention behind everything is cultism or a glorification of people. I do understand that the generation of today is intoxicated with the glorification of people and that they seem to have grown into a need for role models (Britney became Jesus) but one should learn to separate the creators from what they created and judge and value both independent. Long's devotion to the occult or Satanism ultimately is as irrelevant as Lavey's devotion. What counts is what they shared. Why is of little importance.

What I find amusing is that you seem to be bothered that a Black Mass could be done in the name of Hitler. The Black Mass was/is in essence a heterodox ritual and weirdly enough people are not too bothered when it is/was done in the name of Satan, which was the archenemy of humanity if you think of it, but when it is done in the name of Hitler, one seems to cross some lines. The actual point is to cross some lines. We have come into an era where man became truly more fearsome to some than the devil. And in that, isn't this fearsome man exactly the heterodox personification that becomes valuable in that aspect? The Black Mass is the Panchamakara of the West, our translation of the 5Ms and as such, we can use whatever is heterodox in our culture. The devil sadly lost much of his potency, especially here at the Old Continent.

People talk about Nazis like in the past they talked about witches, or devil worshipers for that matter. Most is based upon what they are spoon-fed by society or political doctrine/religion. Now, I am not going to deny that Nazism contained some of the greatest mistakes of the previous century but at the same time it also contained some of the best of humanity. At some levels Nazism personifies the Western spirit, the soul of the conqueror and Hitler can be seen as a symbol of that Western nature. Of course he lost it at some point but overall he didn't do much that was not in the tradition of all previous Western conquerors. In the Melian Conference (history of the Peloponnesian war by Thucydides) is a fine response from the Athenians: “…since you know as well as we do that right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must…” Might is Right, the foundation of Western civilization. One of the biggest issues we seem to have with Nazism is the extermination of the Jews. While I do not agree with it, what bothers me most is not that they were killed but that they willfully had them be led to the slaughterhouse. While we all do try to find rationalizations for that suicide by proxy one can not deny that defeatism was an essential part of their character and defeatism is always selected against in nature. Abraham sacrificing his son to god is the very core of Judaism. As such, I do see their extermination as unavoidable. They seem to have learned their lesson nowadays and amusingly, that tends to shock us even more. Now we call them the Nazis of the Middle East, which, admit, is as ironic as history can get.

Now, like I said before, ONA isn't the easiest of branches in Satanism but their principles are valid. Our current I-pod generation might find it hard to submit themselves to hardship. After all, many have been nurtured during their first two decades and too many think that a day without the Internet, their cell phone or running out of coca cola is as horrible as it can get. They remind me of a log on water, softly floating, relying on waves to push them into a direction. And as such, they prefer an easier version of Satanism too, something not too hard to understand and preferably, also not too hard to live up to. But even when wielding the satanic label, they remain that very same log on the water. They call themselves, might even be convinced to be Satanists but they are still relying on the waves to push them forward. Essentially Satanism is about becoming the wave itself and push instead of being pushed. That is too hard for many and they prefer to be entertained in their comfort zones instead of trying to go venture out of them and explore themselves. This exploration is not only a physical one but also a psychological one and when people see the value of it, more and more might start to make sense. Excellence does not come by aging. For those who's life is all about reality-TV and cyber-identity, it tends to feel absurd of course. But remember, the RHP, traditionally, is a symbolic life, living by proxy and it is to all to find out in how far they are infected and care to cure themselves. After that, all they need to do is find appropriate tools.

D.


Edited by Diavolo (07/25/09 07:02 PM)

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#27496 - 07/25/09 07:39 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Diavolo]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
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As you know, there is no more misunderstood order of Satanic thought than the ONA. Many neophytes stumble upon ONA material and are draw in by 'evilness' of it without true understand of the sinister didactic.

Much like the Socratic dialog in "The Republic" perhaps our own dialog would be the best way to explain this material to the uninitiated?


 Quote:
It's probably a lot easier for people to handle the heterodoxy of specific works or forms in dismissing them...


Yes. The last thing people want to do is re-think their position on something. It is much easier to dismiss it and call it names. Most people lack the ability to develop memes outside of something they were marketed. Political, social and religious memes all come to ones mind by simple marketing. Fully 90% of all people on Earth are incapable of developing an original thought. A similar number are unable to comprehend an original thought that conflicts with or is too dissimilar to their current programing. Most people now actually talk in buzzwords and marketing hooks.

 Quote:
ONA is a different approach to Satanism and at some levels one that is more loyal to the original Vamamarga than most of current Satanism.


"Satanism is understood by its genuine adherents as a particular Occult way or method. That is, it is a specific path or way toward a specific goal, the following of which involves a particular way of living. The specific path, or 'Left Hand Path', is a dark, sinister one, and the specific goal is the creation of a new type of individual. On a more general level, Satanism is concerned with changing our evolution and the societies we live in - creating, in fact, a new human species and a civilization appropriate to the new type of human being." (Anton Long: Satanism: A Basic Introduction for Prospective Adherents, Thormynd Press, England, 1992)

Transhumanism. Vamachara - to break social taboos to gain freedom and enlightenment - to become a new being in thought and action, to develop new social constructs, and ultimately to bring into being the further evolution of mankind. And, this is what so disturbs the status quo. Imagine if increasing numbers of people threw off the current paradigms and began to construct their own social structures that better suited their own needs and world view.

 Quote:
Even Myatt's Muslim form I don't see as that strange compared to the rest of his writing. I'd say it mixes real well with the previous ones and the core is always identical in all.


Does Myatt's promotion of radical Islam and Islamic terrorism threaten the status quo? Then the question answered!


 Quote:
All in all I find ONA the best thing Satanism delivered in the last decades. It however should be looked at as an advanced course. One that is free to take but hard to finish.


Indeed. If you come to Satanism looking to 'get into' ONA then you are barking up the wrong tree. May I first suggest that the initiate first ground themselves in their own identity? Read Books of the Left Hand Path first.

 Quote:
Is ONA defunct?


Acausal meta-physics would say no.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#27508 - 07/26/09 12:38 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Fist]
bluj666 Offline
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Registered: 07/14/09
Posts: 38
Loc: Tennessee,USA
If you go to this site http://camlad9.tripod.com/ you can read everything dealing with the ONA. Their books, articules, ect. Anton Long never put a copy right on his material, for the basic reason of makeing it as obtainable as possiable.
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#27515 - 07/26/09 02:15 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Fist]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138

Neverless I do agree with certain ONA principles (i.e., personal evolution, personal growth by taking risks and achieving goals,..) the idea that they are creating a new type of society for maintaining a new kind of human raises more question marks to me, then little cries of pleasure. Even so, the idea of stagnation comes to mind on long-term.

For starters: a new kind of human? What should be new about humans? A new pair of legs? Neo-nazism and the idea of an Aryan race is mostly pushed forward. Despite that idea/ answer I can come up with enough counter-arguments to disapprove this statement. One of them is the evolutionary fact of natural modification triggered by environment. (A black mans' chances of survival are lowered heavily when he emigrates to countries as Alaska, Northern Russia,..) The body isn't simply evolutionary adopted to the new environment.

 Quote:
To live and act like an Aryan - that is, with nobility of character - means upholding and living by this principle of Death Before Dishonor.

Despite the fact this contains some truth, no one ever died of a good ass-spanking or a bit of dishonor. I prefer to be dishonored and to regain my status later by modification on my weaker points so I personally "evolve" and undo the dishonor. It's part of the "personal evolution/growth" which is a main principle within the ONA..

The best warrior is the one who has known defeat...

Last note:
As diavolo and fist said; the principles of the ONA are valid and they are the most misunderstood "group" within Satanism.
(I even admit I do not know everything about this group, only VERY basic knowledge and even that's discussable.) Even though the principles are valid, keep the guard of criticism up. Not only for the tons of bullshit around it, also for the doctrines and ideas within. It is easy to claim you belong to "something", but it's hard to have a decent understanding and nearly impossible to be considered as "full" by the elite.


Edited by Dimitri (07/26/09 02:25 AM)
Edit Reason: spelling
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#27522 - 07/26/09 07:07 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dimitri]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I don't think a new type of society is a that questionable idea. What is going on (generally speaking in a certain context) is actually a contra-revolution, an attempt to bring society back to the level that is human and intentional instead of an artificially created society where egalitarianism is enforced de juro and degenerating laissez-faire seems to be the general and promoted attitude at all other levels. To borrow a sentence of the past "(r)evolution; one mind at a time." At some levels idealistic, I agree, but conditions depend upon probabilities and when none toys with them, only a status quo can be expected. Now, in reality, many do toy with those probabilities and to a degree, the real war is situated at a memetic level. The logical question would be; does one prefer to be a log pushed by the waves or a wave pushing the logs. To some the answer is evident, to others the reality itself of this does escape them.

A new type of human should not be looked upon as a gradual and slow process as natural evolution in species mutation. We will not develop wings in two decades and roam the skies but we do evolve at a faster pace than we ever did. In the past I once had a debate about how the brain seems to evolve separately from the rest of the body or at least differently. At some levels this is true. Our species relies heavily on their brains and most investment by evolution was done there. Every couple of generations the general IQ increases some points, which is actually nothing else but faster working brains. As such, we have evolved immensely compared to humans from let's say the 17th century. Although our appearances might be similar, there is a huge difference in the speed of our brains, the basic knowledge we contain, what is required of our brains these days, and due to that, the interpretation and interaction with reality, which at some levels might be looked upon as a manifestation of our consciousness. We are close to opening Pandora's box and take evolution in our own hands. It can be debated if it really is evolution but when we are able to engineer ourselves and make it inherited traits, there is no difference with evolution. And even if we evolve to technologically enhanced humans, it can be seen as evolution. Transcendence can come in many shapes and this new human should be looked upon as what is called Homo Evolutis by some. They have been given many names but I do think that is the most appropriate in this era. And even when personal evolution is only reached at an emotional or psychological level, it can be seen as a New Human. The Übermensch as Nietzsche described him is Homo Evolutis at some levels.

Race itself is of little importance and I do think cultural traits are more important than the color of skin. As such, the Aryan, when used, should not be looked upon too strict but outside of the previous context and as a symbol for the New Man, the Homo Evolutis. Of course society prefers to uphold the blond Aryan ever hostile German as a symbol of doom but again, that serves a purpose to them. You'll also still find traditional Aryans of course but the world is also filled with creationists. Not all are able to let go old religions or put things into a new and better perspective.

About dishonor. Failure is an unavoidable part of life but to fail does not imply being dishonored. Don't look at those too simplistic. A man that lives by a code of honor will know what dishonor implies and when it is merely failure. He won't kill himself because he got beaten in a fight. But he knows that some fights are worth dying for.

D.

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#27527 - 07/26/09 10:03 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Diavolo]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
As such, we have evolved immensely compared to humans from let's say the 17th century.

I don't think it was that drastic. The human race, like most species, evolves very slowly. We like to think of how "advanced" we are, yet our genetic code has hardly changed since the stone age. It's "social" evolution, certainly, but not in the genetic sense.

In my view, the way modern civilization is right now can only stagnate and pollute the human gene pool, since we have removed ourselves from most of the forces of natural selection. Whether humans will be intelligent enough to safely implement eugenics and bring about the transhuman age has yet to be seen. (We will do it, no question. It's just a question of when) I can only hope we don't screw it up.
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#27533 - 07/26/09 11:18 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Diavolo]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
In the past I once had a debate about how the brain seems to evolve separately from the rest of the body or at least differently. At some levels this is true. Our species relies heavily on their brains and most investment by evolution was done there. Every couple of generations the general IQ increases some points, which is actually nothing else but faster working brains. As such, we have evolved immensely compared to humans from let's say the 17th century.

1) First one would be that I tend to disagree a bit with the statement "every couple of generations the general IQ increases". I would simply keep it to the brain getting slightly larger, which doesn't imply an higher IQ rate (since IQ-tests depend in current state, influences, background and the questions/test itself. Add the fact that statistics can seldom be applied to conclude the whole population...)
2) (not much of a remark) I tend to agree with you on the part in which you say we have evolved immmensly in comparisation to the average 17th century person (on intellectual level that is, for those who think about bodily modifications). But do keep in mind that "we" are living in a society based on morals in which some have become laws to obey. It is in my view that certain morals over a period of time become "outdated" since no one gives a flying fuck about it anymore.
As an example: antisemmetism is considered "bad" by most. I predict that within a timespan of 100 years no one wold even care about it. The action which caused that anti-semitism to be bad is outdated, it's history and hardly anyone likes history.
An example of evolution of the brain and or ideology? Or something else?
Anyway, it doesn't take away that "old morals" or ideas are still being used or being brought back for various reasons.
3)
 Quote:
don't think a new type of society is a that questionable idea.

When I think of a new society I tend to think about a whole new "hierarchical" structure. Or did I made an interpretational mistake?
 Quote:
And even if we evolve to technologically enhanced humans, it can be seen as evolution. Transcendence can come in many shapes and this new human should be looked upon as what is called Homo Evolutis by some. They have been given many names but I do think that is the most appropriate in this era.

Despite the fact it sounds far-fetched to rational people and having a science-fictional smell I can only agree with this. The evidences are obvious: nowadays almost everyone (at least in the western civilasation) depends on a computer or machine to keep things in order. Our whole social economy is being calculated and maintaind by highly advanced technologies. Not having any technological intellect is almost suicide in this age.



Edited by Dimitri (07/26/09 11:20 AM)
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#27538 - 07/26/09 11:54 AM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Dimitri]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Whether you agree or not with the increase in IQ is of little relevance to the fact that it is happening. The average IQ rises about 3 points every decade and forces IQ test to be re-normalized from time to time to keep the average at 100. It is called the Flynn effect.

New hierarchies to me are not as important as natural hierarchies. I am not charmed by bottom-up systems and logic states that only top-down systems have the potential of being intentional. Bottom-up will always end up corrupting itself. Not to say top-down is free of error but individuals are always more probable to succeed than masses when it comes to goal orientation. An individual has a 100% chance of pursuing his goal. A group of two only a 50% change both goals are similar. A group of 100, well you can do the math and see how the probability disfavors intentionality. So yes, I think natural hierarchies are better, natural in this case in the human sphere.

The technologically advanced human is not as far-fetched or scifi as most might expect. I posted some movies in the past about current research which clearly show the path towards Homo Evolutis.

Beyond the Crisis

Of course most is only at a physical level; the New Man will not be made solely of flesh.

D.

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#27638 - 07/28/09 04:58 PM Re: Yet Another ONA Thread! [Re: Diavolo]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 320
Loc: SoCal
The ONA seems to have made a slight "come back" from the "causal dead" lately. Behind the "scene-wise" "AL" - this year of fayen - has produced more new MSS than since the dark ages [late 90's].

Myatt seems to have also altered course. He has taken down many of his Islamic sites as of late, and has silently returned to working on his Numinous Way. Like "Long," Myatt has also been busy producing new MSS; on Homo Hubris, Acausal Physics, and such.

Both Myatt and "Long" [assuming "they" are different people] have phased out certain racialist outer forms once used in the past, and both now are making "Numinous Clans," and "Sinister Tribes," the 'new' Method of expressing the ONA exoterically.

I am personally delighted to see Myatt return to the 'helm' after his 'wandering' or 'excursion' into Islam. I'm sure it wasn't a waste of time. But personally I believe Myatt has a very creative mind, and that he should use that creativity to continue to nurture his own unique brain-children - The ONA; The Numinous Way; and Reichsfolk NS, rather that give that creativity to Islam.

It's also good to see some of the Old Guards working behind the scene. Seems as though they are trying to manifest a new Narrative. One which Myatt and Long are actually two different people a la Pointy. It looks like Anton Long "could" very well be a professor Crowthers?

It is also good to see that amongst the actual Thinking intelligencia of Satanism, the ONA is still regarded with some respect and honour. Whether it is dead or alive [or whatever], it's in such minds that the ONA 'exists,' takes root, and through such minds, does it change and evolve into something beyond what it was.


Edited by Caladrius (07/28/09 05:02 PM)
Edit Reason: Make Pretty
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