Page 1 of 2 12>
Topic Options
#26391 - 06/28/09 02:59 PM God is a psychological crutch
Nightmare Offline
pledge


Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 58
Loc: San Antonio TX
God is nothing more than a psychological crutch, an illusion, a form of wishful thinking caused by human weakness. you can trace back the illusory concept of God to an often subconscious, childish desire to be protected. In this scenario God is simply a substitute for the perfect father that the weak religious person never really had. In addition, the religious person also uses God as a crutch by referring to Him as the explanation for things otherwise inexplicable. Or God is used as a crutch when the religious person canít deal with lifeís tough realities. God listens to prayers and removes bad conscience when the religious person has committed something that he imagines to be sinful Because his bible tells him so. According to many critics of religion it is only mature and rational human beings, that have risen higher on the evolutionary ladder and escaped the falsity of religion. According to them we need to guide the psychological energy thatís directed towards the illusory God and heaven back to the real, material world.

This Idea of a god has existed since man has been around. even the cavemen had gods, all early forms of mankind had their god(s) that protected them and explained why things happened. The Greeks had A god or tale to tell why things happened and a god to protect some one in almost any problem. Athena the goddess of war was prayed to for protection in battle, for example. then Christianity surfaced and there was only one god to for everything. This I believe was the reason it spread so well and stays so powerful.

However God(s) also gives the morals by which laws are written and holy texts give the main ideas on which laws are made If God doesnít exist, then everything is permitted. Thereís no absolute moral standard against which we can measure our acts. Morality is created on the basis of the individualís likings. The Atheist can justify all kinds of abominable actions with claims such as: ĒSomebody may think my actions are morally wrong, but thatís just their subjective opinion. Iím can do whatever I like!Ē In this way Atheism gives people the possibility to ignore the dictates of conscience and live a life of full self indulgence. So Atheism could be considered a psychological invention aimed at eliminating all moral obligations that are created by the god(s) that man created for himself.
_________________________
So can you tell me what exactly does freedom mean,
If I'm not free to be as twisted as I wanna be

Top
#26396 - 06/28/09 05:25 PM Re: God is a psychological crutch [Re: Nightmare]
Demonic Moroni Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/25/09
Posts: 18
Loc: Arizona
I strongly disagree with the statement that religion is a crutch for the religious. To me, to say that is the same as making the statement religious people love to make so much: that atheists are just in denial about God, because they're hedonists who don't want to be held accountable for their actions. We all know that's bunk.

There are many things about religion that inconvenience the believer, just as us atheists have to deal with the fact that we will not be going to any sort of heaven after we die. It all comes down to perspective. To the believer, the world looks like it was created by his/her specific god. They don't do so, because they want to, even if they are happy because of it. If faith was built upon mere wanting to believe, it would fall apart. I've had many experiences with this.

Materialism is just as much of a philosophical starting point as theism. One can not disprove (or prove) supernatural religious beliefs with science, because that would be comparing apples and oranges. Science relies on a materialistic framework, therefore, it cannot make judgment on other frameworks, because they exist in different realities. The only way you can--somewhat--reliably conclude whether a religion is valid or not is to look at it from its own perspective. Look for philosophical inconsistencies and errors. Even then, the believer will often have some sort of apologetic to defend their faith with, but you'll know that you gave it the ol' college try.
_________________________
"Here I stand; I can do no otherwise."
Shemhamforash!
Hail Satan

Top
#26398 - 06/28/09 09:17 PM Re: God is a psychological crutch [Re: Demonic Moroni]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
I strongly disagree with the statement that religion is a crutch for the religious.


Wait who made that statement? The post I just read was stating that the God concept is used as a crutch to give people a sense of meaning/protection. Were you disagreeing with that statement?

 Quote:
To me, to say that is the same as making the statement religious people love to make so much: that atheists are just in denial about God, because they're hedonists who don't want to be held accountable for their actions.


To you and you only. I think most non-religious people see that God is just a comforting device to people who can't accept the fact that there isn't a reason behind everything and that their lives are in fact in the long run meaningless. And saying that believing in God is a crutch is nothing like saying atheists are in denial of God because they don't want to be held responsible for their actions. Saying atheists deny God because they don't want to be responsible for their own actions only shows that you don't understand why atheists don't believe in God. I've heard of a lot of religious people, mostly Christians who believe that atheists deny God and believe in the theory of evolution because if we believe that we are animals and evolved from apes (proof that they don't understand evolution either) then we can act like animals and commit crimes and cause the destruction of society.

The difference between the two statements you mentioned are that one is completely out of line and is easily put down, and the other is easily proven.

 Quote:
One can not disprove (or prove) supernatural religious beliefs with science, because that would be comparing apples and oranges.


That is untrue. There have been many religious theories that have been disproved by modern science. For example carbon dating proved that the Earth is not 5,000 years old. The theory of evolution has also been proven with the study of genetics, which disproves the religious belief that humans were made from clay by a divine creator. There are endless instances where science has disproved religious beliefs. And no matter how much evidence there is against religious myths, religionists always say the same thing; you need to have faith. Well if faith isn't enough and you need hard evidence of something, you turn to science to prove or disprove something.


 Quote:
Science relies on a materialistic framework, therefore, it cannot make judgment on other frameworks, because they exist in different realities.


What are you talking about? Science and religion exist in different realities? No, there is one reality and then there is fantasy. If what you meant to say was that science can't conclude anything on a spiritual level, for example you can't prove or disprove that there is a God, you're still wrong. There is less evidence than supports a theistic religious perspective than there is evidence that supports theories of science such as evolution and the big bang. The difference between science and religion is that with religion, nothing can be proved or disproved because everything is based on faith. Science on the other hand involves logic, observation, research, and experimentation. The scientific method, or the means by which conclusions are made logically, never fails if followed correctly. Some may say that Science and religion must stand alone, but when it comes to actually trying to prove that a religion is more than just faith based, you need to introduce some sort of science to the situation.

 Quote:
The only way you can--somewhat--reliably conclude whether a religion is valid or not is to look at it from its own perspective. Look for philosophical inconsistencies and errors. Even then, the believer will often have some sort of apologetic to defend their faith with, but you'll know that you gave it the ol' college try.


All religions are 'valid'. You can debunk some easier than others yes by looking for flaws within the religion itself, but like you said even then the believer will find some way to defend their beliefs. That is because for some faith is stronger than reason, but those who know better usually turn to science, or reality as I like to call it.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

Top
#26404 - 06/28/09 11:37 PM Re: God is a psychological crutch [Re: Mike]
Demonic Moroni Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/25/09
Posts: 18
Loc: Arizona
 Quote:
Wait who made that statement? The post I just read was stating that the God concept is used as a crutch to give people a sense of meaning/protection. Were you disagreeing with that statement?


The first sentence in the post I was responding to led me to take that interpretation of it. I apologize if I'm wrong.

Otherwise, I do disagree with your statement, and for reasons I outlined in the original response. If religion does provide meaning for the religious, then that is a beneficial side-effect. I take issue with the idea that religious people are deluding themselves for psychological gain. (You did not make this statement, yourself as I saw, but that is my take on a wider attitude I've seen.)

 Quote:
And saying that believing in God is a crutch is nothing like saying atheists are in denial of God because they don't want to be held responsible for their actions.


Why not? Both assertions assume that belief is, at least on a deeper level, insincere. The straw-man theist wants to believe in a god, because it gives him an external purpose; and the straw-man Atheist doesn't want to believe in a god, because then he wants to indulge in whatever hedonism he wants.

I see these as equivalent statements, and equally fallacious ones at that.

 Quote:
Saying atheists deny God because they don't want to be responsible for their own actions only shows that you don't understand why atheists don't believe in God.


I, myself, am an Atheist. I am merely pointing out a straw-man.

 Quote:
That is untrue. There have been many religious theories that have been disproved by modern science.


I was talking to a Lutheran pastor once, who was explaining why he believed in a 6000 year old Earth. His reasoning was based on the idea that God could've made it with a look of completeness. This concept did not appeal to me or my reasoning, but that is what I mean by science and religion being in different realms. If you attach consciousness to the natural universe, science becomes very shaky, because the universe could decide to change the parameters on you.

I am playing devil's advocate, here.

 Quote:
Some may say that Science and religion must stand alone, but when it comes to actually trying to prove that a religion is more than just faith based, you need to introduce some sort of science to the situation.


To attempt to prove religion with science is just as faulty as trying to disprove it with science. That's the whole point of faith.

 Quote:
That is because for some faith is stronger than reason, but those who know better usually turn to science, or reality as I like to call it.


I agree with your faith and reason statement. I also agree with your equating science with reality, but that is because I, like you, am a materialist. We are speaking the same language. What I'm saying is that you can't combat a belief outside of your philosophical starting point with tools that rely on your philosophical starting point. It just doesn't work.
_________________________
"Here I stand; I can do no otherwise."
Shemhamforash!
Hail Satan

Top
#26413 - 06/29/09 03:31 AM Re: God is a psychological crutch [Re: Demonic Moroni]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
God is a psychological crutch, to be sure. The biggest reason,I think, people hold such beliefs is very simple: fear of death. Not neccesarily being dead itself, but the permanent nothingness of death. People find comfort in the belief that upon their death they will transported to an eternal paradise where they will see their friends and loved ones again.

A recent poll at my school showed that fear of death was the biggest fear among students. Funny how the biggest fear is of something that happens to everyone and can't be controlled. Perhaps it is the lack of control that causes the fear. In turn the fear is allieviated by knowing that someone or something is in control. In this case, God.

That rationalization is followed by the need to know. People are curious creatures and do not like not knowing the explanations for things. Why are we here, how are we are and where are we going our questions that humans have asked themselves since they were able to ask such questions. The idea of God serves to answer all of those questions with little problem because people have the self-defeating tool of faith.

Don't ask for an explanation of the explanation, just have faith. Failure to have such faith assures the person will go to a not so nice place upon their death. It is also interesting how religion backs government and vis versa. Align yourself with a dominate deity to be seen as "one of them".

Believing that God is needed for people to have morals only helps to further assure that God is neccesary. Without God people would be nothing more than murderous heathens. Another crutch.

As far as Scientific Method is concerned people are a little off. Nothing can be proven or disproven scientifically. It can only be seen having the same result(s) over and over again. That doesn't mean that the results will always stay the same, hence the inability to conclusively prove or disprove anything. However, logic dictates there is no good reason to belive something without good reason. Sounds like circular logic but I think you get the point.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

Top
#26416 - 06/29/09 05:29 AM Re: God is a psychological crutch [Re: Nightmare]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
To put your rambling in short:
God is nothing more than an illusional being..

So what? Why care about it? He's illusional--> fine, and those who say otherwise--> fine for me also. I simply don't care if it is a crutch or not. I live in the 21st century with the tools common for it. I use them properly at any time I want, they are part of my life.
I want to have a "good" life in which I can enjoy things and don't have to wonder about such trivialities.

Why bother about it? It's kicking a dead horse, get a fucking life, live it, enjoy it and that's it. The bickering wether or not of the existence, the bickering about it being a "crutch"... be damned, if you don't believe in it: FINE just stop nagging/bitching about it if you made up your mind.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

Top
#26432 - 06/29/09 08:11 PM Re: God is a psychological crutch [Re: Dimitri]
Nightmare Offline
pledge


Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 58
Loc: San Antonio TX
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B3OPDu3lRc

The other side of the argument? do you see the flaws in this arguement? it is not even argument all he says is not to use this point because he cannot counter it.
_________________________
So can you tell me what exactly does freedom mean,
If I'm not free to be as twisted as I wanna be

Top
#26434 - 06/29/09 08:56 PM Re: God is a psychological crutch [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
As far as Scientific Method is concerned people are a little off. Nothing can be proven or disproven scientifically. It can only be seen having the same result(s) over and over again. That doesn't mean that the results will always stay the same, hence the inability to conclusively prove or disprove anything. However, logic dictates there is no good reason to belive something without good reason. Sounds like circular logic but I think you get the point.


Well if you really have to get technical, then no, nothing can actually be proven, with or without science. However, applying science to religion to try to determine whether or not certain aspects of it are true or not will most likely turn up more evidence that leads us to see that a lot of aspects of religion are purely based on faith.

Demonic Moroni: Although I do now see your point, I still disagree. Even though some may benefit from having religious beliefs, it is still a crutch for people who can't dictate their own lives and need something to keep them in line and happy with their lives. There are plenty of people without God in their lives that get along just fine. People who use religion to feel a sense of comfort often do so by telling themselves that with God they'll be happy and protected, and if they're going to any trouble to "let go and let God." Now how exactly is having a false sense of security and well-being due to a faith based religion that makes no logical sense 'beneficial' at all? It's mearly a crutch for the weak.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

Top
#26435 - 06/29/09 08:59 PM Re: God is a psychological crutch [Re: Dimitri]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
It's more than just saying God isn't real. We're trying to back up the statement that people use God/religion as a psychological crutch. Why are we arguing/debating it? Because we're on a forum that was made for us to do that.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

Top
#26436 - 06/29/09 11:10 PM Re: God is a psychological crutch [Re: Mike]
hellbent666
Unregistered



Mike, I couldn't agree with you more but I have something I want to bring up. Couldn't the sense of wanting to fit in be a psychological crutch as well? Couldn't the designer of this forum be providing the same sort of communal comfort found in church pews? I'm pretty sure I know these answers already but I'm just playing Devil's Advocate for amusements sake.

When I told my cell mate in prison that I was the God of my own subjective universe he said, "Show me something Godlike." I couldn't so he then said, "Well what's to stop me from pushing you out of this window?" still no answer. What I'm trying to illustrate here is the lack of substantial proof leading anyone to believe that Satanism is any different. I could give many examples but I think you get what I'm talking about.

Top
#26437 - 06/29/09 11:38 PM Re: God is a psychological crutch [Re: ]
Nightmare Offline
pledge


Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 58
Loc: San Antonio TX
 Originally Posted By: hellbent666


When I told my cell mate in prison that I was the God of my own subjective universe he said, "Show me something Godlike." I couldn't so he then said, "Well what's to stop me from pushing you out of this window?" still no answer. What I'm trying to illustrate here is the lack of substantial proof leading anyone to believe that Satanism is any different. I could give many examples but I think you get what I'm talking about.


Well please elaborate firstly and secondly Id like to point out that Satanism is different because the main belief is not (for me that is) in a god or god like figure, it is in yourself and your own world. Satanism has no god you must believe in and your cell mate misunderstood the point, it is not that you are a god and have godlike powers but that you lead your own life like a religious man believes god leads his (all of this just my take on Satanism not to speak for anyone)
_________________________
So can you tell me what exactly does freedom mean,
If I'm not free to be as twisted as I wanna be

Top
#26441 - 06/30/09 12:43 AM Re: God is a psychological crutch [Re: Nightmare]
hellbent666
Unregistered



There is no proof saying that he could not push me out of that window. There is no proof saying that other people often times dictate how you earn money and live in this world. There is no proof saying that you ultimately lead your life because there are men with the authority to lock you up at a whim. It's really crazy how little control we really have.
Top
#26447 - 06/30/09 01:26 AM Re: God is a psychological crutch [Re: ]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Hey,

You have options you don't know you have.

You could fight to stay in the room and not go out the window or pull him with you as you fell.

You decide what job you will take, and you choose how you decide to support yourself.

If fuck up and do something stupid, you will most likely go to jail.
But you are white, free, and over 21. Don't be an obvious dick and you won't go back to jail. That is still your choice.

You have the control to decide how to live your life.
You just have to shut the fuck up, and do something.

Oh, and please.....
Go join the public library. As a Satanist it is your responsibility to better yourself, go read more books.

Thank you,
Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



Top
#26449 - 06/30/09 04:10 AM Re: God is a psychological crutch [Re: Nightmare]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Originally Posted By: Nightmare
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B3OPDu3lRc

The other side of the argument? do you see the flaws in this arguement? it is not even argument all he says is not to use this point because he cannot counter it.

Nightmare..
I wasn't even talking about "their argument and it's flaws" nor mine.
I was mentioning that you simply shouldn't care, it's a time waster! While some prefer to discuss and convert people to "their religion or philosophy", you can also have a good time doing other fun things like hanging around with friends, having a decent fuck and so on...

Argument or not, I simply don't care as long as they aren't extremist bastards who start to annoy...


 Quote:
It's more than just saying God isn't real. We're trying to back up the statement that people use God/religion as a psychological crutch. Why are we arguing/debating it? Because we're on a forum that was made for us to do that.

Why should you back that up? You are on a fucking Satanist board just open up one of the closed topics where some christian heretic tried to "spread the word" and you have your back-up..


Edited by Dimitri (06/30/09 04:13 AM)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

Top
#26476 - 06/30/09 07:22 PM Re: God is a psychological crutch [Re: ]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
I don't see how wanting to fit in could be a crutch, however I do understand the rest of your post.

First, to an outsider, Satanism looks like any other religion. However, it is not them who have turned to Satanism, and those that have know that Satanism is unlike any other religion. I could go on to name all of the differences but I think most people on here already know.

Next, the concept of self-deification in Satanism doesn't include having any special abilities normally belonging to Gods. A better answer to your cell mate would've been that you are what's stopping him from pushing you out of the window. The proof that Satanism is different from other religions is easy to find. Anybody can point out the differences if they're a little educated on the subject.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

Top
Page 1 of 2 12>


Moderator:  SkaffenAmtiskaw, fakepropht, TV is God, Woland, Asmedious, Fist 
Hop to:

Generated in 0.024 seconds of which 0.003 seconds were spent on 28 queries. Zlib compression disabled.