Page 4 of 9 « First<23456>Last »
Topic Options
#25118 - 05/29/09 11:36 AM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Scarlett156]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Thought forms are an easily understood concept and not unknown to most probably many of those here. Some of us have a little time in the "occult sciences" under our belts and might surprise you.

The problem isn't in our understanding of what you are trying to say, it's in your gobbledegoop way of trying to say it. The rambling might seem esoteric to you, but it's simply hard to wade through and to piece together. So you see, this kind of manipulation of acolytes and those with a need to believe is basic. It's been practiced by the priests of every mystery cult since the the dawn of time, from the Egyptian priests speaking from behind the walls at Abu Simbel to the Oracle of Delphi, all the way up to the common Magic 8 Ball.

In ritual, it's a simple transformative adaptation. Again, something that has been around a hell of a long time. Psychodramatic ritual within the Church of Satan is widely known and understood, and has been used quite effectively when needed.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


Top
#25127 - 05/29/09 10:39 PM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Scarlett156]
miriam Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 90
Loc: Seattle, WA
scarlett, if you think satan does exist, how do you know he doesn't have a favorite beer? and if you think satan is merely an archetype, than why do you say he can be brought into physical manifestation? if you mean to say you're finding satan within yourself, and that idea is manifested in your physical being (although i honestly have no idea if this is what you're trying to say), than isn't satan's favorite beer your favorite beer? personally, i think satan wears spike heels and drinks shirley temples! \:\) i'm going to have to go with jake on this one, assuming you're describing psychodramatic ritual. or is it time for that ride in the rain?

it was also said earlier in this thread that LaVey invented the term Satanism, that it hadn't existed before. i'd like to point out that the first written use of the word was by thomas harding in the 1500s. after this, it appears in myriad texts (and contexts), either describing actual "devil worship," or those practicing outside the traditional christian faith, especially outside of catholicism.

i can also think of many historical references (unless by "historical" literature is not included) in which theistic Satanism in some form, however ignorantly, is documented or at the very least imagined. gilles de rais (bluebeard) was accused of Satanism. huysmans, boullan, hawthorne, baudelaire, byron, lautréamont- there are so many examples of people who wrote about "Satanism" to choose from. obviously i'm not referring in this instance to modern Satanism, or any homogenized- or quite frankly, logical- definition thereof. just that people were indeed thinking and writing about it on some level before LaVey.
in addition to literal and figurative accounts of theistic Satanism, people have been writing about satan as an allegorical bringer of light, knowledge and veritable champion of free will for centuries. such works always inspire interest in contemporaries, and i find it very hard to believe that theistic satanic groups of some sort (especially as a simplistic inversion of christianity), as well as atheistic intellectual types did not both instigate and uphold these ideas, however secretly.

granted, most of this stuff comes from artistic minds and could have little basis in fact. but as soon as a "deity" arises in myth, you can bet someone will worship it. not being a theistic satanist, i have trouble grasping what or why one might believe literally in these things, and i'm still not clear on this after reading several posts by theistic satanists on this forum. cold comfort, mayhap?
_________________________
"Your body is the church where Nature asks to be reverenced."

Top
#25128 - 05/29/09 11:03 PM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: miriam]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: miriam

it was also said earlier in this thread that LaVey invented the term Satanism, that it hadn't existed before. i'd like to point out that the first written use of the word was by thomas harding in the 1500s. after this, it appears in myriad texts (and contexts), either describing actual "devil worship," or those practicing outside the traditional christian faith, especially outside of catholicism.


LaVey did not invent the term Satanism. LaVey defined contemporary Satanism. Big difference. There was no organized Satanic "movement" before this codification and those loosely using the term prior to LaVey's emergence were most often "devil worshippers" or what is loosely called "Luciferian," but always with a deference to the idea of an anthropomorphic being (god) or the Christian concept of "god" as the omnipresent and omnipotent being.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


Top
#25143 - 05/30/09 01:48 PM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Jake999]
love.light.peace Offline
Trolling Hippy
stranger


Registered: 05/08/09
Posts: 22
I find the premise of Atheistic Satanism absurd. Perhaps someone could explain to this idiot how you can be an acolyte of Satan and still call yourself an Atheist...

You adhere to LaVeyan life principles but you don't believe in the big guy downstairs? I think Atheistic Satanists are just libertarians in drag.

Do people crack up laughing when you inform them of your viewpoint?
_________________________
Looking for a ban

Top
#25150 - 05/30/09 04:03 PM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: love.light.peace]
miriam Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 90
Loc: Seattle, WA
i think ceruleansteel posted a great answer to this towards the beginning of the thread. you might want to go back and read it.

now let's be honest- are you a theistic satanist? if so, can you explain your beliefs to THIS idiot? i mean, really explain them, not just say why you're not an atheistic satanist?
but something tells me, after reading your posts, that you're just here to push buttons (please do not mistake this with provoking thought).
_________________________
"Your body is the church where Nature asks to be reverenced."

Top
#25151 - 05/30/09 04:19 PM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: miriam]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
I long ago came to that same conclusion. The subject has been covered over and over and is easy to find. I don't mind helping people out, but feeding trolls is someone else's job.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


Top
#25152 - 05/30/09 04:37 PM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Jake999]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Another thing that makes little sense about the whole 'atheeistik satinism doesnt make senses' argument these christians and reverse christians like to throw around is this;If we really DID work for the dark prince, why we would it be surprising that we would be working at convincing the masses of his non-existence?.

'The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing people he doesn't exist'
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#25153 - 05/30/09 06:46 PM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: miriam]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I think all words are wasted on Mr L.L.P. It was pretty obvious half an hour after him setting his first steps here, he was not here to share ideas and opinions. He might think he's a smart chap but I don't think he's the brightest of bulbs out there, probably a bit clouded by embracing the bong too hard and as predictable as the effect of it.

Regarding his signature, I think we maybe should grant his wishes. After all, the weak always need a little push in the back. It was nothing but a matter of time to begin with.

D.

Top
#25162 - 05/31/09 02:56 AM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: miriam]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
At some levels it is useless to try and find organized Satanism in history, partly because Satanism by definition is limited to Christianity and is a post-Christian reactionary movement or impulse. Also because modern Satanism is atheistic in origin, we have to do a search in other atheistic movements and philosophies through history and preferably also out of the western civilization.

So what we are looking for are philosophies that deny god, deny the supernatural, deny afterlife and put their priorities in ratio as an approach to things and enjoyment of life. As such they are always reactionary and in touch with Satan as a metaphor, even when the figure itself is unknown in their culture.

In India, The Lokayata philosophy comes close. Of course we will not find anything resembling current Satanism 100% and expecting that is a bit ridiculous. Memes and ideas adapt and change in cultures and will always have variations upon a certain theme.

 Quote:
We may paraphrase, and logically rearrange the ideas expressed by the Charvakas in simple and contemporary prose:

Happiness is the highest end in life. There is no soul and no life after death. There is no world other than this world. Heaven and liberation from the so-called cycle of birth and death are imaginary ideals. Everyone will inevitably die. No one will be reborn. Therefore, one should make the best of one's life and live happily as long as one lives.

It is irrational to suggest that one should give up pleasures of life because they are mixed with pain. It is just like saying that we should throw away our finest grains because they are covered with husk and dust.

Earth, water, fire and air are the four elements. Consciousness, too, arises from these four elements only; just like intoxicating power arising from mixing together certain ingredients which themselves do not have intoxicating power.

There is no soul apart from body. When we say "I am fat" or "I am lean" attributes like fatness reside only in the body. Phrases like, "my body" are only significant metaphorically.

The hotness of fire and the coolness of water etc. are all natural attributes. Everything behaves according to its own nature and the variety in things comes from nature alone.

The Vedas are not revealed. Their authority should not be accepted. The authors of the Vedas were devoid of intelligence and honesty. Vedic sacrifices, ceremonies for the dead (shraddha), gifts to priests and other related rituals are useless and bear no fruit anywhere. They were created only as a means of livelihood for Brahmin priests.


D.

Top
#25165 - 05/31/09 11:35 AM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Diavolo]
Scarlett156 Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/20/09
Posts: 59
Loc: rural Eastern Colorado (USA)
Indeed, whether an entity such as God or the Devil is "real" or not is an ubiquitious topic all over the internet. In all honesty, there cannot be much added to the subject in any discussion setting that will make everyone stop and go "hmmm.... I never considered that before".

There are a few things that may not have been brought up in any detail in this particular setting, however.

My remarks that something can be "real and not real" at the same time address what I have seen to be the core of the issue. (And I'm always somewhat consterned at how people, regardless of the setting, will take what I say to be antagonistic or threatening--that is never my intention in an internet setting; I have enough enemies in real life that I don't need to go around on the web getting people all pissed off at me, ya know?)

It's belief that is the issue here, not "reality".

If human beings do not believe in one thing, they will believe in another. If I don't know someone very well, or care very much what happens to him or her, I will never challenge his/her beliefs in the least way. (I grew up in a family that fights bitterly about every little thing, so in reality [har!!] have no taste for long-drawn-out arguments where everybody gets all out of sorts and the word "stupid", while perhaps never overtly stated, is implied in almost every sentence uttered.)

It is belief that is the troublesome thing, not "reality". (IMPORTANT NOTE: I'm not one of those people who will try to convince anyone that there is no such thing as "reality" by the way, or that the mishaps, luck, events, and obstacles that befall us are "only our imagination", or that things happen to use because "we wanted them to" or any bullshit like that. If a magician learns to walk through a solid obstacle such as a chair or wall, it is not because he has willed away its physical structure, but because he has learned enough about that physical structure to be able to manipulate it to his--very expert--ends.)

Instead of sticking up for this or that point of view about the subjective/objective nature of God or the Devil--or any non-space-occupying entity--I try to ask myself what benefit attaching my beliefs to one or the other will have primarily for me personally and secondarily for those I care about. Will it benefit me to believe in one thing (i.e., that God/the Devil are REAL on the physical plane as well as the metaphysical one, and that they are sort of like people, like me), or the other (that God/the Devil are just IDEAS without objective substance, and that I could travel to the ends of the universe and never hope to meet either one)...?

Or is it perhaps better to withhold belief entirely, and realize that whether I believe in these things' REALITY or not, it will have little effect on my well-being and happiness, either short- or long-term...?

I would rather just be a non-carer where these non-space-occupying beings are concerned. They are real enough if I need them for something, and otherwise I seldom have any pressing need to ponder whether they actually "exist".

One thing to consider is that whether God is ultimately real or not, we have to admit in a pragmatic and self-interested way that others' belief in the reality/non-reality of God can have significant effects on us. The same can be said for Satan. It would not do much good for me to deny unequivocally that either exists, since they CAN have effects on my life. You know: Mr. Big is someone you're never going to meet in "real life", and you have only a sketchy idea of how he lives, and don't even know his real name--but he knows yours, and eventually will send a couple of guys to your house to break your kneecaps because of your gambling debts, right? Even with broken kneecaps you may still be able to convince yourself that Mr. Big does not really exist, since you never saw him, but such a belief will not contribute greatly to your long-term wellbeing (and may actually be a detriment to it), if you see what I'm saying.

As another example: Many people will claim not to "believe in" ghosts--although again, as noted above, it's not a matter of belief/lack of belief, but differing beliefs regarding a thing's objective reality, that is the issue.

However, many of us who study and investigate paranormal occurrences will find that these "ghost" things are often able to move physical objects, such as furniture, doors, and so on. Could it be, therefore, that ghosts are actually "real"? And if this thing that so many people will passionately and vehemently disavow belief in actually is REAL, could it be then that other things--angels, demons, God, Satan, Mercury, Cerridwen, etc.--are also "real"...?

For me it's almost always of more short- and long-term personal benefit not to ponder whether a ghost is/is not real, whether I observe that it can move physical objects or not. My belief, I feel, prevents me from properly evaluating the things I do perceive and see. If the ghost, to the best of my perceptive ability to discern, can move a glass of water on a table, that is what I want to investigate, not sit around blathering about whether "I believe in ghosts" or not (possibly giving him time to realize that there's also a knife sitting on the table next to the glass of water). If I have to get rid of, or radically change, a bunch of belief in order to observe something correctly, then I'm starting off at a great disadvantage.

That's just my take on the thing anyway--people do much better without belief, in the long run. In the above example, I said that if I don't know someone or care about him much, I won't discuss his beliefs with him--well, if I DO care about someone, I will, over time and in a non-confrontational way, attempt to displace his beliefs from whatever they are semi-permanently attached to.

Sure, my friend or family member has a right to whatever he wants to believe! However, I never forget that also have a right to be free of the consequences of others' beliefs that I do not share.

There are always consequences for belief--no beliefs are "harmless". In my opinion, eradicating the tendency to believe in one thing over another is a more beneficial undertaking for the average human than getting rid of or embracing God or the Devil. xoxoxo


Edited by Scarlett156 (05/31/09 11:37 AM)
_________________________
"I can fling poo gooder than u"

Top
#25167 - 05/31/09 12:08 PM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Scarlett156]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Originally Posted By: Scarlett156
One thing to consider is that whether God is ultimately real or not, we have to admit in a pragmatic and self-interested way that others' belief in the reality/non-reality of God can have significant effects on us. The same can be said for Satan.


First of all God and Satan are not real and no amount of belief that they are will ever make it so. Second of all another person's beliefs can only have an effect on you if you let them.

 Originally Posted By: Scarlett156
You know: Mr. Big is someone you're never going to meet in "real life", and you have only a sketchy idea of how he lives, and don't even know his real name--but he knows yours, and eventually will send a couple of guys to your house to break your kneecaps because of your gambling debts, right?


What the hell are you on about?!

 Originally Posted By: Scarlett156
...many of us who study and investigate paranormal occurrences will find that these "ghost" things are often able to move physical objects, such as furniture, doors, and so on. Could it be, therefore, that ghosts are actually "real"?


I think it is more likely that a better explanation for these "paranormal" occurences exists, but most people would rather see the "evidence" that confirms what they already believe. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim that "it" is true.

 Originally Posted By: Scarlett156
And if this thing that so many people will passionately and vehemently disavow belief in actually is REAL, could it be then that other things--angels, demons, God, Satan, Mercury, Cerridwen, etc.--are also "real"...?


If wishes were fishes beggars would eat.

The rest of this post is even more confusing than your reference to Mr. Big. That being the case I will not even attempt to make sense of, dissect, or respond to it.

I suggest re-reading your post before clicking submit and see if it makes sense first. If you thought this made sense, well, i'm "sorry".
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

Top
#25172 - 05/31/09 01:27 PM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Scarlett156]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I had some problems following your train of thoughts in this reply. I read it a couple of times and still some parts are hard to understand where they are going or what you actually try to say. I'm not sure if it is your writing style and you just let it go when writing; stream of consciousness style. I admit I suffer from a similar disease at times, not that I use stream of consciousness but that I forget that what I am thinking might not be as evident to others, often because I don't include the in-between thoughts leading to some conclusions or opinions. So I try to take some distance from what I wrote, reread it again and try to imagine how others read it. I suggest you try it too, it might eliminate many misunderstandings.

I'll reply to some part, even when it is leading a bit away from atheistic Satanism but I'll do my best to tie it in. I won't get into the ghost subject. Not only because I don't find it very probable but because such an argument, which might go on for ages, has been done before and would completely get this thread off track. Ok, on to belief.

I don't think belief is as much the problem as how those beliefs affect their lives and others. Beliefs can't be eradicated; our whole identity, spiritual views and world view is build upon beliefs and agreements and they will always remain as such because certainty is beyond us. Reality is probabilistic to us and in that, rather hostile toward a concept like truth. The most rational approach is thus to embrace beliefs and agreements that are most probable or if not, that are most suitable. The superiority assumption that is part of Satanism is such a suitable belief that is only probably under certain circumstances. But it does work for some and in that is to be chosen above a more egalitarian perspective. In other cases it however is contra productive and the probabilities are only in favor when the frame of comparison exists out of clubbed baby seals and dead squirrels. In that, they don't feel very inclined to rise above their current self, the competition is not very threatening. But we do not need to get into such people here.

So at some levels the atheistic-theistic Satanism quarrel is futile. If someone thinks Satan exists in reality and he sees him as a role model and executing his wishes consists out of striving for his own excellence and indulging his life to the max, the fact that Satan is real in this case is trivial. I –sadly- do not meet many of those. The same can be said for an atheistic Satanist that embraces him as a symbol or metaphor but at the same time prefers to solve all real life issues by chanting Enochian keys. While his basic world view might be probable, his spiritual view isn't and he should have realized that real life acts are more probable when it comes to active changes than using metaphysical methods. I'm not talking about ritual as emotional purification here mind you.

So yes I partly agree that belief can be chosen not only for probability but also for suitability. But it, at the same time, makes us vulnerable because we do not always make the wisest choices and are easily lead astray by beliefs that might be emotionally fulfilling in short term circumstances but in the long run come at our own expense.

Once infected by a belief, it is pretty hard to let go. Even when it is self-chosen.

D.

Top
#25174 - 05/31/09 03:10 PM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Scarlett156]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Please, before you post again, Miss, consider the definition of the word concise. As has been said, your ADHD style of posting is quite hard to wade through.

With that said, I have managed to pick out one clear thought from that mess, and I truly find it objectionable.


 Quote:


There are always consequences for belief--no beliefs are "harmless". In my opinion, eradicating the tendency to believe in one thing over another is a more beneficial undertaking for the average human than getting rid of or embracing God or the Devil. xoxoxo

In fact, any premise can be believed or disbelieved, but that in and of itself certainly does not put all beliefs on an equal epistemological plane. Beliefs encompass everything from the belief that all humans should die at the tip of my knife, to the belief that I am, in fact, typing this post right now. Are these beliefs are equally as potentially dangerous? Of course not.

Beliefs are what we use to separate the wheat from the chafe, they are what forms our worlds and our boundaries. To completely abandon belief is to embrace epistemological egalitarianism. This is of course just so much hot air, because if you really held this position you would have long ago walked off a cliff or gone swimming and not surfaced. I mean, the belief that you need air or the belief that you can't fly are obviously not equal to their counterparts.

The important boundary marker in terms of belief is that of faith. Faith is the proverbial 'no mans zone' at the edge of reasonable existence. That point at which beliefs no longer have a coherent tie to reality. And that is where beliefs in supernatural deities necessarily must exist.

So you see, embracing one belief over another is not only important, but unavoidable. What is important is the criteria for belief.
_________________________
ADM
ideological vandal

Top
#25182 - 05/31/09 08:38 PM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Scarlett156]
NDawg Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/05/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Da South
I'm not entirely sure what chaos magic is, and I'm not too familiar with TSB (working on that one). One thing I do have going for me is that most of my thought is given to existential reality. All I was saying, and you verified, was that these abstract entities we call 'gods' are merely deep rooted abilities and currents within ourselves.

Whatever you want to name it, God, Satan, Thor, Bast, Zeus, whatever. These names are just ritual aids to help get us into contact with our subconcious, where all these abilities are stored. The dogma is what trips people up.

Take radio for instance. There was a man, when it was just debuting, that said that radio had no future. I'm sure there were others who were greatly excited about the prospect of being able to recieve and transmit speech across great distances. This was a dream back in the day. What do we all have in our cars today? A radio. Just because someone says that it's not 'real' or 'feasible' just means that in their experience they haven't found a way to make it real.

(Can't believe I'm giving this example, but, fuck it.)D&D is another good one. When I sit down to a game, I actually gear myself up to see whats happening in this little world I create with my friends. I may not physically experience what happens, for example, getting hit with a broadsword, but I can see and hear it in my mind, and that is no more real or unreal than the chair I'm sitting in.

When you bring Satan into physical manifestation, he may not be standing there with a body all his own, but he's there. In your mind, you know that he's there. No one can validate or reject your experience of this because we weren't there. What is real is completely arbitrary. It depends entirely on your perspective of things.

If someone comes up to me and says he sees little pink elephants with wings, I nod and say okay. I don't see them, but just because you can't see or touch it doesn't mean it isn't there.

Sorry if that got a little off topic.

Top
#25183 - 05/31/09 09:00 PM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
NDawg Offline
stranger


Registered: 04/05/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Da South
Not tryin to flame, but you have no proof other than bold print that god and satan are or aren't real. Neither do I.

Other people's beliefs can affect you, even if you don't want them to. The Inquisition is a perfect example of this. The poor farmers out tending their animals, being happy with their families, and generally just living the good life had no conception that a MAN which they didn't even know existed was about to send people over to where they were and start fucking things up drastically. They had been worshiping in their own way for generations. But these people in power believed that they were heretics and evil, and the beliefs of these people in power radically affected the normal people in ways they couldn't imagine but are appallingly apparent today.

It is a sad fact that people would rather be told that what they know is right in a new way, but we have to get over that as a race(humans). For example, you sound so sure that these entities don't exist, but a wise man said absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. There are millions of species in the brazilian rainforest that are completely unknown to humans. Just cause we don't know about them or don't have them fit into our little box doesn't mean they don't exist. We just don't know. The burden of proof does lie with those trying to prove it, but the inverse is also true. What is your proof these entities don't exist?

If you have a better explanation, I'd like to hear it. A new perspective is always fun. Give me a new way to think.
_________________________
I live to be proved wrong. Help expunge my ignorance.

Top
Page 4 of 9 « First<23456>Last »


Moderator:  SkaffenAmtiskaw, fakepropht, TV is God, Woland, Asmedious, Fist 
Hop to:

Generated in 0.03 seconds of which 0.002 seconds were spent on 28 queries. Zlib compression disabled.