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#25915 - 06/21/09 06:11 PM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Dan_Dread]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
Yes exactly. The only reason I choose to not use the word belief when describing myself it to avoid it being taken out of context, even accidentally when people respond to me. 'Believe' has too many meanings and connotations.
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#26418 - 06/29/09 07:27 AM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: TornadoCreator]
Octavius Offline
member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 557
Loc: Left the party
A general response to this topic:

This writing is to demonstrate the differences between Autotheistic Satanism specifically and Atheism. Ultimately, it is to show that those who are committed atheists have impoverished their lives and overlooked certain Self-empowering opportunities by falling into the modern West's false dichotomy of objective vs. subjective reality.

In our culture today there is a large percentage of people who seem to think that things of the mind have little or no potency. They feel that things of the mind have no efficacy in the real or objective world. The mind can be affected, but it cannot affect the world around it. This notion flies in the face of innumerable examples around us everyday. However, deep in their heart, even the most diehard scientific realist most likely doubts the minds impotence.

Basic examples abound to show how the line separating the mind and ìthe world out thereî blurs. In many cases it simply isn't there. An instance of this is provided in the film What the #$*! Do We (K)now!? During an interview the viewer is given the following to consider: it only takes one thought to give a man an erection. Though perhaps crude, it slams the point home. A single thought produces a tangible physical result. Extrapolate this to every conscious movement a person makes and you can see that the mind is very effective in an immediate sense.

Let's take this a step further. The next time you take a walk down the street by your house, as you look at the other houses on your street, consider how each and every one of those buildings started as an idea in someoneís mind. Consider it the next time you draw a picture, write a story, or achieve a goal. Think about it when you buy your next car or go on your next vacation. All of these realities started out as intentions in someoneís mind.

For a further level of abstraction, ask yourself about K-Mart. Does it exist in an objective sense? Does it exist the same way as a rock in your yard exists? Sure, perhaps there's one five minutes from your house, but that building is not K-Mart for the simple fact that it could be a courthouse, a gym, or a school. It is K-Mart because it is accepted to be so by the public; it exists as K-mart because it has been accepted as such by the collective consciousness. K-Mart is realized only as a collection of legal contracts, which themselves only gain validity in the consciousness of people. But look at how institutions like K-Mart can affect us in the real world. The same principle applies to law and economies. They exist because we make them so.

The concept finds its most fundamental support in quantum mechanics. Research superfluidity. It is the greatest empirical verification of superposition, though it is less well known than the double-slit experiment. It gives great credence to the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. Couple this with the Special and General theories of relativity and the Bohmian concepts of the implicit and explicit orders and you can begin to see just how important the consciousness of the individual is; you will see that at a fundamental level consciousness is a primary ingredient and creator of reality.

This brings us to the concept of symbolism. More precisely it brings us to the power of symbolism. K-Mart exists more or less as a concrete symbol of the collective consciousness. Its reality is established in the mind so deeply that it is viewed as a physical, objective reality. Just as some symbols are so powerful that they have made themselves realities without us even knowing it, other symbols can be adopted and then brought to that same level of objective reality.

Within the Autotheistic religion of Satanism, Satan exists as an icon for the purpose of emulation. He is a symbol the practitioner seeks to realize physically within himself. More specifically, He is a symbol of an individuals fullest potential. So, to put it simplistically, the Satanist seeks ultimately to realize his full potential within himself. To become a God to become Satan is to achieve that realization. The symbols of Satan and Godhood are synonyms for potential. The thing is that these symbols can become actualized through the individual. They can become reality. Thus they cease to be ìmere symbolsî but valid metaphysical terms with the same full-blooded reality of a painting or a house.

The icon of Satan is important in a way that the Atheist can never appreciate. This striving to embody a symbol has more emotional driving force and a sense of commitment more satisfying than the mere pursuit of pleasure or success can ever hope to bring. More to the point, the goal of Autotheism is more real than the ideals of Atheism. Atheism is just a metaphysical stance whereas Autotheism is a metaphysical ideal that can be turned into the same concrete physical reality as your local grocery store. All it takes is commitment and courage.


Edited by Octavius (06/29/09 07:28 AM)
Edit Reason: clarity
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#26452 - 06/30/09 07:36 AM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Octavius]
god.over.djinn Offline
pledge


Registered: 06/23/09
Posts: 75
Loc: Melbourne
Hi Octavius,

I agreed with your first two paragraphs, but then I was disappointed to see you get hung up on the "What the bleep do we know?" crap.

Thoughts do not affect the external world, subatomic or otherwise. If you are referring to certain counterintuitive results in quantum mechanics, this is a matter of experimental design, and the way experimental apparatus necessarily need to interact with their subject matter when studying processes on the quantum scale. The same outcomes would be yielded by an automated experiment which sends its outcomes for analysis to a statistics program on a computer without any human ever finding out what happened. It has nothing to do with consciousness or some act of observation.

I see you also refer to David Bohm and the Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum mechanics in the same breath. In fact, the work for which Bohm is best known, eg the implicit order stuff, is at odds with the C.I., and I believe that modern physicists have concluded that Bohm's hidden variables theory is also fundamentally flawed. I did like his early textbook Quantum Theory, but he hadn't decided to make his wishy-washy mysticism so public at that point.

Anyone who is so enamoured of the authority of science that they feel the need to use science to justify their every passing fantasy about superpowers and imaginary friends would do themselves a favour if they actually learned what it is of which they speak. "When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there."

Or you could just grow a set, and claim to have the power to affect your reality simply because that is what gods do, when gods have no need for sycophancy to methods that they obviously don't respect.
_________________________
SATAN, a recursive acronym invented by GOD: "SATAN: Advocating The Adversarial Nihilist"

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#26455 - 06/30/09 07:50 AM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: god.over.djinn]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3116
 Quote:
Thoughts do not affect the external world, subatomic or otherwise.

They do, for every action you make a thought is needed.
Think about this:
You see a nice lady passing, you are getting aware of something. How so?
You are hungry and start making food.
How so?
You are sleepy and go to bed.
How so?

I could go on giving stupid examples but one thing is certain: every action you are doing and going to make is the result of a "thought". Some actions in your body seem to be controlled thoughtless, but at a certain point you can come to the conclusion it is also steered by the brain for "safety issues" only.
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#26457 - 06/30/09 08:09 AM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Dimitri]
god.over.djinn Offline
pledge


Registered: 06/23/09
Posts: 75
Loc: Melbourne
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Quote:
Thoughts do not affect the external world, subatomic or otherwise.

They do, for every action you make a thought is needed.
Think about this:
You see a nice lady passing, you are getting aware of something. How so?
You are hungry and start making food.
How so?
You are sleepy and go to bed.
How so?


You haven't mentioned much to do with thought here. These are all physiological responses.


 Quote:

I could go on giving stupid examples but one thing is certain: every action you are doing and going to make is the result of a "thought".


I believe the quote you provided from my previous post contains a qualifier, in that I refered specifically to effects on the external world. The simulations generated by my brain which I call "my thoughts" do have feedback effects on the flesh, it is true. Purveyors of "What the bleep do we know?", "The Undivided Universe", and "The Holographic Universe" would have us believe that, ergo, we can win the lotto by wishing on a star.
_________________________
SATAN, a recursive acronym invented by GOD: "SATAN: Advocating The Adversarial Nihilist"

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#26459 - 06/30/09 08:27 AM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: god.over.djinn]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3116
 Quote:
You haven't mentioned much to do with thought here. These are all physiological responses.

Indeed physical responses to an internal/external stimilus and being put into "reality" after thinking (having the idea/thought) on how you should react.

More clear now?

 Quote:
Purveyors of "What the bleep do we know?", "The Undivided Universe", and "The Holographic Universe" would have us believe that, ergo, we can win the lotto by wishing on a star.

Can you proof it doesn't...
The deeper meaning of these things you mention is partly that every human subject has a subjective mind. It wants to believe what it wants to believe. I can indeed wish to win the lottery and after 500 wishes finally win it. I can say I won it by wishing it never what others are trying to tell me that it was a sheer "coincidence".
Thoughts are subjective and everyone acts according to it. The total sum forms reality. Reality is the sum of all subjective interpretations who interact with each other and finally form the total view.


Edited by Dimitri (06/30/09 08:32 AM)
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#26469 - 06/30/09 04:14 PM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: god.over.djinn]
Octavius Offline
member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 557
Loc: Left the party
 Originally Posted By: god.over.djinn
Hi Octavius,

I agreed with your first two paragraphs, but then I was disappointed to see you get hung up on the "What the bleep do we know?" crap.

Thoughts do not affect the external world, subatomic or otherwise. If you are referring to certain counterintuitive results in quantum mechanics, this is a matter of experimental design, and the way experimental apparatus necessarily need to interact with their subject matter when studying processes on the quantum scale. The same outcomes would be yielded by an automated experiment which sends its outcomes for analysis to a statistics program on a computer without any human ever finding out what happened. It has nothing to do with consciousness or some act of observation.

I see you also refer to David Bohm and the Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum mechanics in the same breath. In fact, the work for which Bohm is best known, eg the implicit order stuff, is at odds with the C.I., and I believe that modern physicists have concluded that Bohm's hidden variables theory is also fundamentally flawed. I did like his early textbook Quantum Theory, but he hadn't decided to make his wishy-washy mysticism so public at that point.

Anyone who is so enamoured of the authority of science that they feel the need to use science to justify their every passing fantasy about superpowers and imaginary friends would do themselves a favour if they actually learned what it is of which they speak. "When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there."

Or you could just grow a set, and claim to have the power to affect your reality simply because that is what gods do, when gods have no need for sycophancy to methods that they obviously don't respect.


I was impressed with your reply until you so eloquently questioned the existence of my testicles. Honestly, it was unnecessary and paints you as a sycophant yourself by trying to bait me with insults. It's refreshing to see a newbie with a brain here, but you discredit yourself with the machismo posturing and blatant bait for attention. Conduct yourself as a gentleman, or join the rest of the flotsam that get ignored on a daily basis here.

Octavius
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#26507 - 07/01/09 04:49 AM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Octavius]
god.over.djinn Offline
pledge


Registered: 06/23/09
Posts: 75
Loc: Melbourne
 Originally Posted By: Octavius

I was impressed with your reply until you so eloquently questioned the existence of my testicles. Honestly, it was unnecessary and paints you as a sycophant yourself by trying to bait me with insults. It's refreshing to see a newbie with a brain here, but you discredit yourself with the machismo posturing and blatant bait for attention. Conduct yourself as a gentleman, or join the rest of the flotsam that get ignored on a daily basis here.


*grins*

No worries. I apologise for insulting you.

G.O.D.
_________________________
SATAN, a recursive acronym invented by GOD: "SATAN: Advocating The Adversarial Nihilist"

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#26728 - 07/03/09 02:46 AM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Octavius]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
I should also like to note that the primary goal of the "What the Bleep" series' usage of pseudoscience was not to show the potency of human symbolism- as would be the case with Satanism- but rather to merely give vague and watery "evidence" in support of ridiculous things like ESP, magical thinking, ghosts, goblins, and all other such invisible pink unicorns.

Yet even with the most bullshit-drenched varieties of quantum-physical-quasi-mysticism that have arisen as of late, there are none that can accurately define "K-Mart" as a distinct physical entity-- other than the hard physical fact that it is a hunk of bricks, mortar, and cement, with a hive of mindless consumers scuttling about within it.

Octavius stated that, The icon of Satan is important in a way that the Atheist can never appreciate. I cannot disagree more. Atheism is merely the disbelief in an external god-- a tenet that is the foundation of Satanism itself.

I would say that the so-called "hard" atheists (insert erection joke here) represent a collection of the exclusively artless population that usually find their way into scientific or engineering professions- for the sake of differentiation, I will label them "the artless". The artless have no terrible interest for the literary, symbolic, or religions manifestations of humanity. Yet the Satanist- even though he is likewise an Atheist- has an interest in art, literature, symbolism, and religion- nearly to the point of obsession. Therefore, those with an appreciation for the "right side of the brain" are more suited to recognize the meaning and potency of symbolism- in this case Satan. Yet- as the grand point of my long rabble, resulting from staying up too late, is- it is not hindered by or in any fashion contradictory to- Atheism.
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#26731 - 07/03/09 03:11 AM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: The Zebu]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
I think the icon of satan couldnt really be appreciated by a mere Atheist (as in the labelled Atheist). we are atheists but we have a satanic religion behind it that gives form to our beliefs. Many atheists I know think the symbolism is stupid and then onto this philosophy being stupid.

I think The icon of Satan is important in a way that the Atheist can never appreciate isnt implying that its contradictory or anything just that those who call themselves atheists and nothing more dont appreciate 'Satan' as we do.

Excellent description of atheists and otherwise though.

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#26734 - 07/03/09 03:33 AM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"we are atheists but we have a satanic religion behind it that gives form to our beliefs."

There is no "we".
There is no "religion".

It is a philosophy.

Morgan
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Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
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#26736 - 07/03/09 03:47 AM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Morgan]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
Well I was to believe there was a group of people known as satanist but I guess Im mistaken.

Also I thought Satanism was a religion, a philosophical religion at least but I guess im wrong again there too.

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#26740 - 07/03/09 04:14 AM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Morgan]
hellbent666
Unregistered



Morgan, you are out of your mind!

There is such thing as "we" in Satanism. To be a Satanist you have to find yourself mirrored in TSB. If you find yourself mirrored in this book and adopt the title "Satanist" you are allying yourself with a group of people that also call themselves "Satanists". There is common ground that is shared by all "Satanists", thus proving that there is a "we" in Satanism. Just because you read, "The Myth Of The Satanic Community" doesn't mean it's true. Sure we're staunch individualists, but you still classify yourself as a "Satanist". If there is no "we" you might as well call yourself a Morganist. But then all Morgans that called themselves Morganists would also be apart of your little group. It's really okay to be a part of a group. We are social animals. It's okay, really ;\)

Satanism can either have the now un-PC title religion or philosophy. The more PC america gets the less likely it will be to call Satanists a religion, even though in many respects it still is.

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#26742 - 07/03/09 04:20 AM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: ]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"We" was in meaning to the fact that that idiot does not speak for me or many others. He speaks for himself.

Satanism is a religion to those who are mainly inverse christians still worshipping an image on their knees.

Satanism is to many a philosophy system because it is something to be lived not revered.

I hope this claifies things for you.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#26743 - 07/03/09 04:41 AM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: ]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3116
Finding a relevance in the SB means indeed you are related to a group of people who follow the same principle of life.
And there it simply ends, the "we" changes to "I".
Satanism is individuality in mind and actions. "We are", "we say",.. doesn't exist. Every human being has got a mind of it's own and fills in or interpretes the SB a bit different then it's fellow compagnons.

Proof? I differ from views about art, music, and generally other topics and moral lines from other members who consider themselves Satanists.

On a side note: Satanism is a philosophy since it lacks dogma.
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