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#26745 - 07/03/09 07:20 AM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Dimitri]
Jester Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 62
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I understand Morgan and Dimitri's reaction because I am like them. I don't like people speaking for me and simply put Satanism is all about the "I". Never use "we" use "I" because you can't speak for someone else, whether you are involved in the same philosophical category or not.
What I don't get is why people are concerned with labels. Atheistic Satanism, Traditional, luciferianism, etc. People need to stop with the ists and isms. Just be yourself, don't worry about labels. When you label something you are putting it into a box, don't get trapped in the box. Be nameless, just be, it really is quite simple. Be everything, be nothing, just be.
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#26773 - 07/03/09 11:33 PM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Jester]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
Im sorry I assumed you were atheists then. Despite that, there is a we in Satanism. Church of Satan is a collective of satanists, this forum is madeup predominately of satanists. And since satanists are atheistic then 'we are atheists'.
You just want to get picky with everything, fine.

P.52- The Satanic religion has not, etc.

P.50- Humanism is not a religion. No ceremony or dogma. Satanism has both ceremony and dogma.

So Satanism is a religion, though usually referred to as a philosophical religion due it its focus being more on philosophy plus dogma and ritual

Now why do I know that and others don't. I would personally expect people remember that part. Go through 'Some evidence of a new satanic age' and relearn what you must have forgotten.
Oh and maybe I shouldve said 'The satanist is atheistic' then you mightnt have had an issue


Edited by Atralux Lucis (07/03/09 11:34 PM)

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#26777 - 07/04/09 12:07 AM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
If you have to quote a book and still not understand it, that is sad.

Whatever Atralux, I'm finished spoon feeding you basic information.

Enjoy your stay on the forum, perhaphs you can still learn some things.

Morgan
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#26781 - 07/04/09 01:12 AM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Atralux Lucis]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
Satanism is technically a "religion". It all depends on your definition of the word.

Furthermore, Satanism does have dogma. Take, for instance, the uniform insistence among LaVeyan-related groups that Satan is not a literal physical deity. Even though there are certainly good reasons behind it, it is generally regarded as an immovable, absolute core tenet of what is often labeled "true Satanism".

Although, it is interesting to note that the root word of "dogma" literally means "opinion".
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#26783 - 07/04/09 01:49 AM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: The Zebu]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
LaVey called Satanism variably a religion AND a philosophy with religious trappings. Dogma... yes. We have dogma, although not in the traditionally accepted sense of the word. Out insistence that man has his personal divinity, the Nine Satanic Statements, the Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth and other touchstones of The Church of Satan are dogmatic, but not nearly so binding as those of other religious entities.
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#26788 - 07/04/09 09:00 AM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
 Quote:

Also I thought Satanism was a religion....


Yes, and all religions share two things - the study and use of meta-physics, which Satanism does. And, all religion requires faith. So, what sort of things would a satanist have faith in?
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I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#26789 - 07/04/09 09:09 AM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Fist]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
I could argue that LaVey's debateable usage of ritual magic is metaphysical.
Metaphysics investigates principles of reality transcending those of any particular science- wiki

I also wouldnt say faith is a prerequisite for religion but even so, an Atheist cannot prove god doesnt exist therefore the Atheist has faith that god doesnt exist. A scientist can give evidence for their theory but ultimately cannot prove it to be correct so the rest is left to faith.

The last one is a bit of an extreme example but you get my point. Faith in oneself as the god of their own universe i guess is a principle of Satanism so that may count too.

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#26796 - 07/04/09 04:55 PM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Fist]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
 Originally Posted By: Fist
 Quote:

Also I thought Satanism was a religion....


Yes, and all religions share two things - the study and use of meta-physics, which Satanism does. And, all religion requires faith. So, what sort of things would a satanist have faith in?


I disagree. Either a religion doesn't by definition require faith, or a Satanism isn't a religion. Satanism is specifically opposed to faith and to hold faith in any of the teachings of Satanism is to accept them without critical examination as absolute truths, it's quite definitely missing the point.
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#26808 - 07/05/09 02:07 AM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: TornadoCreator]
god.over.djinn Offline
pledge


Registered: 06/23/09
Posts: 75
Loc: Melbourne
 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator

Either a religion doesn't by definition require faith, or a Satanism isn't a religion. Satanism is specifically opposed to faith and to hold faith in any of the teachings of Satanism is to accept them without critical examination as absolute truths, it's quite definitely missing the point.


IMO, it is worth considering in these kinds of discussions the etymology of the word religion: "to bind" (qv. "ligament"). The word is thus associated with similar ideas to the word yoga - "to yoke". The general idea is that a religion must involve adherence (binding oneself) to some way of doing things.

I doubt any Satanist would agree that they ever strictly adhere to such dogma as Satanism possesses. They would not be Satanists if they did - the moment the dogma becomes the overriding concern, that is the moment when taking the role of adversary (Satan) against that dogma is most required.

This may be contrasted with other potentially atheistic identifications such as Buddhism, where there is a set of axiomatic truths (4 of them) that one adheres to believing are true, and a set of "corollary" behaviours (8 of them) that one adheres to observing. Hence, while Buddhism can be classified as a religion despite not requiring acts of worship, Satanism - which shares with Buddhism this lack of focus on imaginary friends - does not fit the bill.
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#26810 - 07/05/09 02:45 AM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Fist]
Impius Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/08
Posts: 60
Loc: Lille, France
 Originally Posted By: Fist
 Quote:

Also I thought Satanism was a religion....


Yes, and all religions share two things - the study and use of meta-physics, which Satanism does. And, all religion requires faith. So, what sort of things would a satanist have faith in?


And where did you find such an "accurate" definition for a religion ?

A religion to me would rather be a philosophy (a way of thinking, a vision of life, a group of dogmas, call it however you want) AND a ritual/ceremonial part. These truly are two things you find in every religion. LaVey added the ritual/ceremonial stuff to his vision of Satanism because he believed human beings needed it in their lives, as most of them were locked in religious traditions since they were young. Let's recall the SB came out in the 60's...

Satanism can be perceived as a religion OR a philosophy, depending on the way its adepts (one by one) live their lives. A Satanist who performs rituals will be seen as practicing a religion ; another one, like me, who just calls himself Satanist because he shares LaVey's vision, but without practicing any ritual, will more be seen as sharing a philosophy. Once again, LaVey's writings are just a wide guideline, if it was supposed to be more accurate and dictate us Satanists how to live, we would be in a mess, because the subjects LaVey deals with in his books and the important ones today are quite different...

All the more so... as for me, I call Satanism a religion. Many Satanists do. The ones who don't are still Satanists. Such details don't really matter to us... just like earlier in this topic, when you guys were talking about Satan : who really cares if Satan is a principle, an evil God, or a bunch of potatoes ? The only thing which matters in Satanism is : if you recognize yourself in the global vision, then you're in. If you don't, you're out. End of story.

And to answer your question, my friend, Satanists do have faith in something : themselves.


Edited by Impius (07/05/09 02:50 AM)
Edit Reason: Typo
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#26827 - 07/05/09 11:19 AM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Impius]
FromGehenna Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/24/09
Posts: 53
 Originally Posted By: Impius
Satanism can be perceived as a religion OR a philosophy, depending on the way its adepts (one by one) live their lives. A Satanist who performs rituals will be seen as practicing a religion ; another one, like me, who just calls himself Satanist because he shares LaVey's vision, but without practicing any ritual, will more be seen as sharing a philosophy.


Magus Gilmore expounded on this in his 2005 Introduction to the paperback edition of The Satanic Bible:

"If it was only a philosophy, then such individualists might be welcome; it is more. Satanism has an aesthetic component, a system of symbolism, metaphor and ritual."

My experience from discussing such matters over at LTTD is that you tend to be given the cold shoulder if you use Satanism purely as a philosophy whilst shunning the ritual aspect. It seems that in order to be accepted that ritual is a vital ingredient.

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#26835 - 07/05/09 12:30 PM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: FromGehenna]
Impius Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/08
Posts: 60
Loc: Lille, France
I don't think Satanism has to be what anybody says it is ; what I did in my previous post was just expressing my opinion. Peter H. Gilmore has his own ; LaVey had his own. I disagree with LaVey on some subjects he deals with in his books. And I disagree with Gilmore on this one.

Satanism to me is what is expressed by the 3 basic lists LaVey wrote at the very beginning, before even writing the SB : the 9 sins, the 9 representations and the 11 rules. If you agree with it all, then you can call yourself a Satanist. All the rest is subjective. What LaVey did when he wrote essays (in SB, Devil's Notebook or Satan Speaks) was giving his opinion about some subjects, not saying what ANY Satanist should think about them. That's how I see things. LaVey isn't a guru : he defined Satanism (with the 3 lists), then gave us an example of what it means (with his essays).

It's probably a bit off-topic, but what I mean is that I'm not a sheep to anyone, even if this person is the founder or the Grand Manitou of any Satanist organization. I have my own understanding of what Satanism is (which I think is right), and according to it, I'm a Satanist. Even if I left the ritual part alone personally, I still call it a religion and know that satanic rituals are useful for those who use them (creating psychodrama and helping to sort things out in mind). I simply don't need it. I said I could be SEEN as making it a philosophy, not that I CALL it a philosophy ;\)

If being a Satanist meant HAVING TO practice rituals and HAVING TO prefer occult culture over any other culture, then I wouldn't call myself a Satanist and I wouldn't want to. I like occult culture, but I like many other things which don't belong to it.

Maybe some people will say I'm not a Satanist : fair enough. I believe in my opinions and unless you prove me wrong, I don't see any reason to change my mind \:\)

On top of that, I don't really like Gilmore's views. The Satanic Scriptures is a good book as it's the first one where actuality subjects are seen by a Satanist eye, but I think FSC is way closer to the true spirit of Satanism than CoS.
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#26862 - 07/06/09 05:43 AM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Impius]
Impius Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/08
Posts: 60
Loc: Lille, France
Sorry about double-posting ; edit function disappeared from my previous post since I wrote it yesterday.

Since that question was floating on my mind, I re-read parts of The Satanic Scriptures, and I guess I misunderstood what Gilmore meant. The point is, "do you understand the mechanics of Satanic rituals, whether you practice it or not ?", and not "do you practice rituals ?". In the last essay, he clearly says that a number of CoS members (which means people he considers Satanists himself) don't need rituals and can express their deep feelings by their everyday activities (arts, sports, whatever). So we totally agree on that point. I should have paid closer attention before judging his views \:\)
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#26868 - 07/06/09 07:30 AM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Impius]
Jester Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 62
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
An expression comes to mind;

"Different strokes for different folks"

Whether you perceive Satanism as a religion or striclty a philosophy shouldn't matter. You essentially make it what you want. I mean, if you add dogma (rituals and the like) or don't it doesn't matter. It's whatever works for you. I think some (not all) satanists can't to entangled with what other satatnists are doing. They hear about what one person is doing and they think to themselves..."with all he is doing he makes me look like less of a satanist."

Do what works for you, throw what you deem unnecessary.
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#26879 - 07/06/09 02:22 PM Re: Atheistic Satanism [Re: Jester]
Impius Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/08/08
Posts: 60
Loc: Lille, France
 Originally Posted By: Jester
Do what works for you, throw what you deem unnecessary.


Which is exactly what I do \:\)

I corrected my speech because I misunderstood Gilmore's point of view and said I disagree, whereas I don't. So I wanted to make things clear, by respect. But I didn't change my own mind a bit.

That's one of the things I really like in Satanism. Two dudes sharing the same religion (or whatever you call it) can disagree on some point, and that's totally normal. You can't find it anywhere else.

"Dogmas" means the ritual/stuff part ? I thought it means the "rules" & principles of Satanism. I'd better work my English out a little more ;\)
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