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#26527 - 07/01/09 08:10 AM Born a Satanist
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
Just to tickle on the concept of people being 'born' a satanist.

Can we firstly, honestly say that most satanists are born that way?

And expanding, arent we all born satanists, in being primarily instinctively driven until formed by external, genetic, social factors as we grow?

And then isnt the whole Satanism philosophy founded by a person who was a product of society, their own personal life etc.

I personally, I wouldnt consider, wasnt 'born' a satanist. I admit that. I have always had a open mind and interested in all manner of philosophy, and when I saw Satanism come up on wiki, i was curious. So i went through and saw all the devil worship crap (and saw it immediately as crap) and then found this other side of it which was LaVey.

Month or so of interest and internet research and then I ordered the Satanic Bible and read it and was possibly the best book Ive read and I would say i found the philosophy a very sound one and so I follow it and my base principles are based on it. I practice and observe alot of lesser black magic that goes one and try and learn myself on it through my own experience.
I use LaVeys ideas often in arguments as well. I generally live my life on this philosophy that I 'discovered' and having no previous ideas asides the basic contradiction of christianity idea that most people have before getting into Satanism.

So im not born a satanist, but after reading my own little story can one say that I am not a satanist because of that.

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#26528 - 07/01/09 08:21 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Jester Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 62
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Born a satanist or not, you don't need someone to tell you whether you are a satanist or not. Whether you choose to use moniker of satanist or not is honestly irrelevant. Walk your own path, don't seek adoration from anyone. Satanism has always been about individuality, walk the road that leads you to the goals you wish to obtain.
_________________________
"...And I thought my jokes were bad."

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#26530 - 07/01/09 08:25 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Jester]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
I agree, but its definitely a negative if the founder of Satanism thinks you arent genuine CoS you werent born a satanist.

Im just putting this out there for the sake of clarifying it with other people.

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#26549 - 07/01/09 10:17 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Atralux Lucis]
satansydney Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 20
Loc: Australia
i think satanists are born, certain life experiences brings it out in them.
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#26587 - 07/01/09 05:17 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: satansydney]
Demonic Moroni Offline
stranger


Registered: 06/25/09
Posts: 18
Loc: Arizona
I think the whole 'Satanists are born, not made' deal is really just saying that Satanism isn't a philosophy to mold yourself to. You can really only be a Satanist if LaVeyan Satanist philosophy is a reflection of your already-held beliefs. That way, one could, with a fair degree of accuracy, say that they are a born Satanist.
_________________________
"Here I stand; I can do no otherwise."
Shemhamforash!
Hail Satan

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#26592 - 07/01/09 06:48 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Demonic Moroni]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Every person is made up of his body and mind (the hardware) and his experiences (the software). Every brain is wired a bit differently, everyone thinks sees feels and tastes things a bit different as well. To simplify things, most brains are like computers simply taking in the software programmed into them. If this brain is comparable to a shitty computer then no matter the quality of software the end product is just another idiot/ shitty computer.

This is why I’ve seen students of Yale ask how the tattoo machine knew when to turn on, not how we turned it on and off. After being told it was tuned to the synopsis of our brain and turned on when we looked at them, the cries of joy over the miracles of modern technology were just too much to believe. They didn’t even think bullshit or happen to notice the footswitch wired to the power supply. They had a very limited power of observation, not a very powerful mind. This is our future was all I could think. This was an example of good software, as Yale is supposed to be one of the best being wasted on shitty hardware. No matter how much these buffoons learn they can only parrot this learned knowledge. Nothing will change the fact that they are blind to most reality.

Now if this persons brain is wired in such a way that thought patterns happen on a higher level than the next guy. He questions things rather than being satisfied with any answer given. Some higher thinking brains never see better software than general public grade school. Perhaps they are satisfied in the fantasy they have been led to believe since they were young such as religion. This brain can still out perform the more common model. This is why we can say so many people act satanic but are still Christian, etc.

Then there are the elite. The elitist brain will on its own no matter the life experiences it has, seek out better software or its own programming. This explains how many of us while being force-fed religion with the others said wait a minute. We saw and questioned the discrepancies in the logic being shown to us and dared to do our own research to draw our own conclusions.

This is where elitism stands for me in your thinking. You are either elite and think on a higher level than most sheep or you are simply just another blinded sheep. The truly elite will always strive to become more not being happy with being second best but also not looking to make unrealistic claims. This higher thinking, search for better knowledge and balance of knowing your own limitations to me is what defines the true elite.

This is also why I cannot be bothered wasting my time on hating many ingrates. They are what they are, I almost believe they have no choice in the matter some are hardwired to need religion and dogma. Most are hardwired ignorant. They are simply there taking up space, simply more sheep to manipulate to my will.

These are my beliefs. Who gives a fuck what anyone calls me.

We are the evolution of humanity, We are the future.

~T~

PS. No physical harm has been done to any words in this post. Any part where the word “we” has been used a stunt double was brought in so there was no undo stress caused to the word we or us. Thank you.
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#26618 - 07/01/09 11:50 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: ta2zz]
Jester Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 62
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
A lot of people need to label themselves and others. They need to be able to fit things into a specific paradigm, the "average" person needs to be able to explain and control the things around him. They need to put things into a box so they can organize, seperate and control. Even the people who think "outside the box." I like to think that their is no box.

To quote Bruce Lee, "Be formless... shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle; it becomes the bottle. You put it into a teapot; it becomes the teapot. Water can flow, or it can crash. Be water, my friend..."

He wasn't just talking about a fighting style, he was talking about living life in general.

Another great Lee quote, "Use only that which works, and take it from any place you can find it."
_________________________
"...And I thought my jokes were bad."

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#26688 - 07/02/09 06:17 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Jester]
god.over.djinn Offline
pledge


Registered: 06/23/09
Posts: 75
Loc: Melbourne
Hi Atralux Lucis,

It seems to me that some people are just wired to "get" the general Satanic philosophy. They may never read the works of LaVey (although they would not turn down the chance out of fear, if the opportunity presented itself). They may even - in fact, probably will - regard anyone as silly who goes around advertising themselves as a Satanist. To them, you don't need to tell them that you're a Satanist, because if you explain the philosophy that you live by, they will understand what you are talking about. They will say: "That is just common sense!" They will recognise you as a worthy opponent, and hence will treat you with the dignity you deserve.

Anyone else will certainly not get it, and they do not want to. If they ever pluck up the courage to even touch one of LaVey's books (or even one of Crowley's!), it would only be to confiscate and burn it. If you try to present your philosophy using rational and critical arguments drawn from science and modern philosophy, they will produce an endless string of moralistic "but! but! but!"s. Trying to talk these people around to anything like a sensible view point on the world is a waste of breath. They are there to be either used, destroyed, or ignored, for they are good for nothing else. They will not consider you a worthy opponent. They will consider you with rabid phobia born from their unacknowledged need to worship you.

This is the way of things. But maybe it would be better to say that Satanic people, and not Satanists specifically, are born and not made?
_________________________
SATAN, a recursive acronym invented by GOD: "SATAN: Advocating The Adversarial Nihilist"

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#26690 - 07/02/09 07:25 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
Can we firstly, honestly say that most satanists are born that way?


Yes. The Satanic philosophy is not for everyone or just anybody who finds it appealing. Satanists are such because of instinct. It's not your typical religion, therefore Satanists are not your typical people. Anyone who is born into a Christian family can one day decide to denounce their faith. With Satanism it's different. The Satanist knows the basic principles of Satanism even before reading The Satanic Bible, in fact, a real Satanist will read The Satanic Bible and realize what they are simply by reading their own thoughts on paper.

 Quote:
I use LaVeys ideas often in arguments as well. I generally live my life on this philosophy that I 'discovered' and having no previous ideas asides the basic contradiction of christianity idea that most people have before getting into satanism.


You see, that's the thing. Anyone who isn't a Satanist thinks that Satanism is a creation of Anton LaVey. Don't get me wrong, LaVey did write The Satanic Bible, found the Church of Satan and he was the first person to call this group of ideas Satanism. But when you really think about it, whether you call it Satanism or what not, the basic principles of the philosophy have been around for a long, long time. LaVey even mentions this in The Satanic Bible.

 Quote:
So im not born a satanist, but after reading my own little story can one say that I am not a satanist because of that.


Well, yes. I'd hate to be the one to break it to you, but if you don't understand the concept of Satanists being "born and not made", then you don't have a full understanding of Satanism, therefore cannot be considered a Satanist. When we say we are born Satanists, we mean the philosophy of Satanism comes natural for us. Even if Anton LaVey had never existed and Satanism was never established as a religion, the principles of Satanism would still exist. The only difference is the ideas would be scattered all over the world, and the people who followed each and every one of them wouldn't have a title.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#26691 - 07/02/09 07:28 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: god.over.djinn]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
But maybe it would be better to say that Satanic people, and not Satanists specifically, are born and not made?


Actually it would be the opposite. Satanists are born (refer to my last post), but anyone can be Satanic.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#26692 - 07/02/09 07:51 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Mike]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
I think LaVey pointed out the 'principles' of Satanism were around before him not necessarily Satanism. I think Satanism is more of giving all these ideas and concepts form into a religion.

Following that we establish that these principles outside of Satanism are quite scattered so it would be rather unlikely for a person to have all of the same beliefs. So if one was to see only 1 or 2 of their beliefs reflected in the Satanic Bible would one be a satanist?
And what if after read TSB that the points and principles expressed in it bring out beliefs one doesnt consciously recognize but has acted upon anyways?

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#26693 - 07/02/09 08:23 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
I think LaVey pointed out the 'principles' of satanism were around before him not necessarily satanism. I think Satanism is more of giving all these ideas and concepts form into a religion.


Exactly my point.

 Quote:
So if one was to see only 1 or 2 of their beliefs reflected in the Satanic Bible would one be a satanist?


No. This was discussed on another thread as well. Satanists follow Satanism as it is, period. You can be Satanic and follow certain aspects of Satanism, which is what most who claim to be Satanists do, but real Satanists are born.

 Quote:
And what if after read TSB that the points and principles expressed in it bring out beliefs one doesnt consciously recognize but has acted upon anyways?


Well that's part of it. Whether you follow the principles consciously or subconsciously prior to discovering Satanism by yourself, if you are truly a Satanist when you read The Satanic Bible it should be nothing more than what you already believe expressed on paper.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#26695 - 07/02/09 09:06 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Damis Offline
pledge


Registered: 12/10/08
Posts: 60
Loc: England
Obviously there are external factors such as society and culture which are bound to influence people even if the individual views it in a negative way. However it should also be taken into account that at least in my experience, people are born different from each other in a similar way to how everyone looks different from each other. For example, two siblings brought up in the same environment and culture will have roughly if not completely different personalities.

Taking this view, you could also compare it to political views, you could take two people who are both exposed to identical external influences, and it is possible that one may lean towards the left wing and one may lean towards the right wing, both believing that they are right because it makes sense to them.

If we attribute those to what is currently in question, it is entirely possible that someone through their views, behavior, actions and beliefs could be defined as a "Satanist" because it makes sense to them, this seems to me the most probable explanation to the theory of being born a "Satanist". People may think of themselves as being a born Satanist because what is described in TSB may just naturally make sense to them.

Looking at TSB, it is intended to be a description of an already existing but previously unlabeled set of values and beliefs, throughout the book it employs a third person narrative, "The satanist will", at no instance to my memory does it tell the reader to do anything, there is no second person narrative, e.g "You will". Looking at this I think there is no grounds on which to claim that the text is seeking to convert the reader. It offers the reader nothing, it does not speak directly to the reader, it is but a description. To which a "Born Satanist" would read and agree with and by just being themselves they are the label which is Satanism.

Again, comparing this to a political belief, I cannot see myself unwillingly changing my views in an attempt to suit a certain set of beliefs, I myself am not for example a Socialist, I could join a Socialist party, I could vote for a Socialist party but by just conforming to the beliefs against my own would not make me a "Socialist". Going along the same argument, if someone had to go against their own thoughts and force themselves to agree with what is described in TSB without actually believing in it. Then they would not be a Satanist. You could join CoS but that would not make you a Satanist.

Quite a disordered post but my base response is that you cannot truthfully be something that you are not. You can apply all the academic reasoning you like, but in the end if it seems incorrect to an individual then it is not them.

The difference lies in the descriptive format of TSB,theoretically if someone reads it and sees their own views, then they are the label that is Satanism, if they do not agree with what is described then they are not.

You can't make a cat a bird by sticking feathers to it, nor can you be a Satanist by just saying you agree with TSB.

However I am not saying that by just instinctively agreeing with what is described in the TSB would automatically mean you are a Satanist. It is one thing to agree and think you are what is being described. It is another to actually do what is described.
_________________________
Leben ist krieg.

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#26696 - 07/02/09 09:21 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Mike]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
My point was because one person cannot read the Satanic Bible and say everything in it was a pure reflection of how they live their life. Its extremely unlikely. I meant their would be parallels with certain aspects and the rest would be the reader finding new ideas they agree with and now hold as their own.

Lets say I read TSB and believed in everything written there but hadnt really thought about it before, would I then be a satanist or must I consciously recognise those beliefs myself before even discovering a religion for it?

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#26698 - 07/02/09 09:44 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Damis Offline
pledge


Registered: 12/10/08
Posts: 60
Loc: England
Of course it is highly unlikely that someone will be in a 100% agreement with TSB. However that goes along with my earlier mention of two people not being entirely the same. The general line of belief may be similar between the two people but there will be similarities. Identifying with the vast majority of the TSB would certainly point in the direction of the individual being a Satanist. However there will be points where of course a person will think differently. This would be an example of individualism if two Satanists disagreed over a certain point, however even if a Satanist was to disagree with a particular point described in the TSB, they could still very well still have a satanic view as it were on the given subject.

The TSB is but an attempt to describe and label what is called "Satanism". By saying that only what is said in the TSB is Satanic is just the same to me as someone saying that what is written in the Bible is the only true word of god.

What the TSB does is to set out a general line. If someone does not meet that general line at least, then chances are they are not a Satanist.

As for consciously recognizing, it is not a question of if the person already thinks about what is described before even reading it. It is a question of if they already DO, already ARE what is being described in the TSB. A person doesn't just read it then agree and then bing! They are a Satanist, an actual Satanist will have been a Satanist before they even learn of there being an actual description of it or label.
_________________________
Leben ist krieg.

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#26699 - 07/02/09 09:52 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Damis]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
Okay then. Thanks, that all gives me a better view on it. I really cant remember what my set beliefs before Satanism were so I cant really based my judgment on that unfortunately (i have terrible memory) but I do know I have always agree with there being immense contradictions in Christianity and that sex being just natural and just a few other points like magic being or can be just a psychological thing with the ritual and dogma. I think

The Satanic Bible reflected and gave new emphasis and argument to many of my beliefs and the rest of them I dont think I had really given much thought to but then we discover new ideas and so TSB also acted as a discovery for me in new ideas.

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#26701 - 07/02/09 10:01 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
My point was because one person cannot read the satanic bible and say everything in it was a pure reflection of how they live their life. Its extremely unlikely.


Unlikely to a non-Satanist. The problem is that so many people will read The Satanic Bible and say to themselves "hey wow I never really thought of things this way", and then go on to call themselves Satanists because it appeals to them and makes sense, but most of the time they'll either misinterpret something, add their own touch to it, or not agree with everything Satanism teaches. What happens most of the time is people will read through The Satanic Bible and just simply miss the 'big picture' and see Satanism as something different, and in that instance agree with whatever they interpreted Satanism to be and call themselves a Satanist. Not everyone who calls themself a Satanist actually IS a Satanist by the definition of The Satanic Bible.

 Quote:
Lets say I read TSB and believed in everything written there but hadnt really thought about it before, would I then be a satanist or must I consciously recognise those beliefs myself before even discovering a religion for it?


Like I said, just because it sounds good and you agree with most of it doesn't mean you actually are a Satanist. However if you understand and do agree with all of it, odds are you felt that way before hand. Besides, nobody picks up The Satanic Bible randomly without any reason. There's always something that pulls your attention to it, and even if you don't realize it until you actually read it, it could mean that you are a Satanist. This is of course assuming that you actually understand Satanism. Although my age could've been part of the reason, the first time I read it some of it confused me, particularly when LaVey would get into the symbolism of Satanism. Once I understood what he was implying about occultism and magick and the whole self-deification aspect, the rest became clear to me. You can't just read TSB and decide you're a Satanist. Like anything else in life it involves a lot of thought before you can truly understand it.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#26702 - 07/02/09 10:11 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Damis]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
However that goes along with my earlier mention of two people not being entirely the same.


You actually raised a good point there. Satanism is like a foundation. For every Satanist the foundation is the same. What you build on the foundation however it was makes you different. So as you mentioned before, two siblings brought up in the same environment may have completely different personalities. Basically, even though Satanists may have the same beliefs, they still do have individuality. Simply put, not every Satanist feels the same way about every aspect of life, but if they are true Satanists, they will all at least have the same foundation.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#26703 - 07/02/09 10:17 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Mike]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
I personally dont understand how people misinterpret Satanism (in LaVey's words). He makes it pretty straight forward. I think alot of the problem is people simply seeing it as devil worship which has led to many an argument Ive had with people.

Just another thing, what if someone who doesnt like Satanism (or is just unread in it) but follows all the same beliefs. Does that makes them a satanist without a label of sorts?

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#26705 - 07/02/09 10:25 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Mike]
Damis Offline
pledge


Registered: 12/10/08
Posts: 60
Loc: England
Ah yes that is something I forgot to mention that Mike has covered.

The interpretation of Satanism. I doubt that a lot of true Satanists picked TSB up one day and read it, and thought "Hey this means I am Satanist!", taking time to think on what is described is crucial before anyone can call themselves a Satanist. This could take years. Satanism if for convenience we are going to refer to it as a "Religion", is a religion of the mundane, the physical, the real world. And so experiencing this mundane and real world gives life experience which is critical to understanding the world around us and how we perceive things, it also applies therefore to the interpretation of Satanism.

I do not claim to have a correct or fully formed interpretation of Satanism as described in TSB. In this case I lack the life experience needed, however I can say that through thinking over what is described in the TSB I am gaining a more developed understanding of Satanism. Although I would not call myself a Satanist,, that would be a naive thing to do at my current stage of life. It seems to me that an individual must apply their thoughts and examine themselves thoroughly in order to gain a more complete understanding and to find out if they truly do agree and truly are what is being said. It is something they can only do on their own.

The TSB as I said before at least in my view is a general line, and if that general line isn't fully understood then nothing else will be.
_________________________
Leben ist krieg.

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#26706 - 07/02/09 10:41 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Damis]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
I agree. I read through the Satanic Bible a few times and made sure I understood it all. I got really interested and looked up lots on the internet about other aspects as well , looked through other philosophies related, and just did some research into the whole thing. (to make sure I didnt misinterpret anything)

Reading through other Satanic books and documents also helps one get clarification in the principles but overall I think Satanism is fairly easier to grasp. I guess since I see people who simply dont bother learning or what they know of it they simply deject it I guess that means the philosophy doesnt set something off in their mind, therefore they arent a satanist.

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#26708 - 07/02/09 10:51 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
I personally dont understand how people misinterpret satanism (in LaVey's words). He makes it pretty straight forward. I think alot of the problem is people simply seeing it as devil worship which has led to many an argument Ive had with people.


The only people who see Satanism as devil worship are people who have never read The Satanic Bible. I was referring to people who read The Satanic Bible and misinterpret it. Just because something seems simple to understand at first doesn't mean it actually is.

And in that instance I really don't see why anyone who follows the same principles of Satanism would not like Satanism...Also not every Satanist needs a label. I guess technically they could be considered Satanists by others, but a label is just a label. It's what it's describing that means something.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#26709 - 07/02/09 11:00 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Mike]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
Yes okay then. Reading the Satanic Bible usually clears up the difference between devil worship and Satanism. Unfortunately many dont bother and prefer to argue about it with ignorance.

I've found that even a person who:
Pleasure oriented, against christianity (and intelligently), and just follows alot of the principles but they think Satanism is stupid. I think its just the satan thing and still the misconnotated devil worship. Someone I know who is really very satanic in his own way but never gets past theistic Satanism being the 'true' Satanism even though he accepts that satan isnt real. Its just a childish idea that satan is the devil and has no other meaning.

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#26738 - 07/03/09 03:53 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Atralux Lucis]
hellbent666
Unregistered



In response to ta2zz reply in the first page I have to correct him on one thing.

Elite....
(often used with a plural verb) the choice or best of anything considered collectively, as of a group or class of persons.
2. (used with a plural verb) persons of the highest class: Only the elite were there.
3. a group of persons exercising the major share of authority or influence within a larger group: the power elite of a major political party.
4. a type, approximately 10-point in printing-type size, widely used in typewriters and having 12 characters to the inch. Compare pica 1 .

So by the first definition even idiot savants are good at one thing. By this definition most people are elite at one thing or another. The guy that fixes your car is an elite auto mechanic. The guy that makes you your food at a restaurant (granted it is a good place) is an elite cook. Not only Satanists are elite, this term is a very broad one and can imply numerous things.

If we go by the second definition of elite then only the rich are elite. Sorry to use your profession as a reference (my professional status is way worse than yours, I'm a goddamned deli clerk LOL) ta2zz, Paul Booth, Guy Aitchison, Kat Von D, Vincent Castigula, etc... are all "Elite" tattoo artists by second definition. They are the rock stars of the tattoo world. I am by no means diminishing your work ta2zz, just clearing up word confusion. You ask Paul Booth what he thinks of himself he will say, "I'm a big fat guy from Jersey. I'm nothing special and over-paid." This is a prime example of how modest but confident men are the first to succeed in life.

I am of the mind that LaVey was just trying to add exclusivity to the face of Satanism, and using a cop-out at the same time. By opting for an exclusive definition of what constitutes as real Satanism he made it impossible for anyone to fall into that category. Most of us didn't even know what Satanism was until we were old enough to comprehend such a book! At 2 years old you didn't waddle around in your diaper screaming shemhamforash! And I call Bull Shit on anyone that says they've lived in accordance with the guidelines of Satanism for their whole lives. Everyone fucks up. And according to the CoS some people are too satanic, or not enough satanic.

I do however agree with your hardware software theory ta2zz because, "You can't fix stupid." But then again it's always easier to call someone stupid than to try to understand them.

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#26739 - 07/03/09 04:03 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: ]
hellbent666
Unregistered



Atralux,

Anything can be misinterpreted. I asked a very valid question that was overlooked not too long ago. I asked, "If your boss is being a douche and talking shit to you, what do you do?" By Satanic standards you are to tell him to go out side and play hide-and-go-fuck-himself! Any reasonable person on the planet with a semi-secure job knows that this is not the case, sometimes you just gotta bite the bullet. So, if we were to follow TSB to a fucking T, most of us would either be in the ER eating through a straw or fired and homeless. TSB cannot be followed to a T. There was one black metal musician that did and ended up doing a stint in prison for murder. Sometimes murder is a satanic quality, most of us could not fathom actually following through with such an act. Eye for an eye no longer applies to the west, it is in the hands of the law now.

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#26744 - 07/03/09 07:10 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: ]
god.over.djinn Offline
pledge


Registered: 06/23/09
Posts: 75
Loc: Melbourne
 Originally Posted By: hellbent666
"If your boss is being a douche and talking shit to you, what do you do?" By Satanic standards you are to tell him to go out side and play hide-and-go-fuck-himself! Any reasonable person on the planet with a semi-secure job knows that this is not the case, sometimes you just gotta bite the bullet. So, if we were to follow TSB to a fucking T, most of us would either be in the ER eating through a straw or fired and homeless.


Hi Hellbent666,

I can see where you are coming from, but must disagree. Anton dealt with this issue in his discussion of what it means to live a life of sin, that you get bad repercussions from being sinful only if you don't keep the sins balanced. One example was along the lines of, if you indulge in too much gluttony, you might start to get fat, but then pride will reign you in. You want to be hot, so you don't eat so much.

Likewise with the example of your boss. If you have a temper tantrum and get fired, you are getting exactly what you deserve. It is what is coming to anyone who does not indulge enough in greed, pride, and sloth. A greedy person wants to keep their job. A proud person doesn't want to get fired if they can help it. A lazy person wouldn't bother getting worked up about it all. And if you had an excess of lust, you might even try to sleep with your boss and end up getting a promotion!

Furthermore, murder is not a Satanic act. Satanists relish life. Being willing and able to defend oneself, or to make a clean kill of yummy prey - without feeling excessive remorse in either case - is part of this. But those activities don't constitute murder.
_________________________
SATAN, a recursive acronym invented by GOD: "SATAN: Advocating The Adversarial Nihilist"

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#26761 - 07/03/09 03:56 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: ]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: hellbent666
In response to ta2zz reply in the first page I have to correct him on one thing.

I know the dictionary definition of the word elite thank you very much.

I think you are a bit confused and tend to generalize the word elite a bit too much. Perhaps it is your dislike for the word or the way some treated you while defending themselves with this term. Eh no matter, you missed the fact that I defined what I consider to be the seat of the Satanic Elite starting with the workings of the brain. An idiot savant would only be elite by the standard definition if he stood out from all others in his class, as would a mechanic, a baker, or a deli clerk.

 Originally Posted By: hellbent666
I am by no means diminishing your work ta2zz, just clearing up word confusion.

Your own confusion, again as I clearly was only speaking of a higher thinking brain capacity. Although that is covered by the first definition as well.

 Originally Posted By: hellbent666
You ask Paul Booth what he thinks of himself he will say, "I'm a big fat guy from Jersey. I'm nothing special and over-paid." This is a prime example of how modest but confident men are the first to succeed in life.

Paul Booth modest? The following was over a few Chinese machines that had a logo similar to pauls skull. Don’t get caught up by PR campaigns. Modesty and confidence

 Originally Posted By: hellbent666
I am of the mind that LaVey was just trying to add exclusivity to the face of Satanism, and using a cop-out at the same time.

So you are not a Satanist (by your own definition) then I must ask why bother with anything LaVey said? What LaVey did he did for himself, not you not me not anyone but himself. Was he vague at times sure the fuck he was. It all falls into place once you stop thinking LaVey did anything for you or anyone else.

 Originally Posted By: hellbent666
By opting for an exclusive definition of what constitutes as real satanism he made it impossible for anyone to fall into that category.

By opting to be vague in certain descriptions, he made Satanism into his church, a church that he was then able to market to those he was selling no need of a church or religion to. Selling exactly what he was speaking against. He made himself "the black pope" here we are years after his death still talking about him and his words. Pure fucking genius don’t you think?

Get it yet?

 Originally Posted By: hellbent666
Most of us didn't even know what Satanism was until we were old enough to comprehend such a book! At 2 years old you didn't waddle around in your diaper screaming shemhamforash! And I call Bull Shit on anyone that says they've lived in accordance with the guidelines of Satanism for their whole lives.

Again this statement follows what I myself said, though your interpretation is only trying to disprove born not made. Some say infants are Satanic in nature this does not make them Satanists. Who the fuck goes around screaming Hail Satan or shemhamforash except you youngsters and wannabes anyway?

 Quote:
Everyone fucks up. And according to the CoS some people are too satanic, or not enough satanic.

Yes even LaVey says that even a Satanist can make a mistake, the difference is to accept it learn from it and not make the same mistake again. But I’m not here to quote his words as scripture. Again to straighten out your blatant confusion, according to the current CoS unless you follow every word, as scripture without ever acknowledging the ToS or the FSC you are not a Satanist. Not too satanic or not satanic enough, you are or your not. I must admit while my standards are a bit different from theirs I agree you are or you are not, there is little very grey area for a Satanist. Though possibly like LaVey, unlike many here I can see a use and purpose for the stupids, dregs and wannabes. I also understand if they are bothering me it is clearly of my own doing by letting them get to me.

 Originally Posted By: hellbent666
I do however agree with your hardware software theory ta2zz because, "You can't fix stupid." But then again it's always easier to call someone stupid than to try to understand them.

Stupid cannot be fixed while the ignorant can learn. Maybe if you reread what I said you will understand it better. Because after all that by agreeing with me you are agreeing with the statement “born not made”.

PM me if you would like me to clarify anything else or start a new thread on Elitism as this is straying off topic.

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#26767 - 07/03/09 07:49 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Mike Offline
member


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 253
Loc: Farmingdale, NY
 Quote:
I think its just the satan thing and still the misconnotated devil worship. Someone I know who is really very satanic in his own way but never gets past theistic satanism being the 'true' satanism even though he accepts that satan isnt real. Its just a childish idea that satan is the devil and has no other meaning.


That means they don't understand the mysticism and symbolism of Satanism. Reading The Satanic Bible more carefully would fix that. But in that instance I guess you would say the person is an Atheist.
_________________________
-Mike, "The Patron Satanic Saint of the Youth"

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#26778 - 07/04/09 12:16 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: ]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
Big Slick
active member


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
You've completely missed it. Your examples suck.

 Quote:
So by the first definition even idiot savants are good at one thing. By this definition most people are elite at one thing or another. The guy that fixes your car is an elite auto mechanic. The guy that makes you your food at a restaurant (granted it is a good place) is an elite cook. Not only Satanists are elite, this term is a very broad one and can imply numerous things.


No, the guy fixing your car is someone that can read a manual and knows how to diagnose a problem. Hell, I have ripped my car apart and fixed it numerous times. Yet I am no mechanic. I knew how to read a manual and follow directions. I also had some training in high school. The elite auto mechanic is the guy that can fabricate his own parts. He realizes that a part is unavailable, but knows how to make a new one from basic metal and wiring and such. He's the guy that can take a rusting hunk of metal and rubber and turn it into running show car.

I cook my ass off. But put me up against some old lady from Sicily, I would lose. Elite would be being able to look in your pantry and make a fantastic meal out of bread crumbs, soup mix, and a can of sardines. It is knowing how to deconstruct food to their basic elements and reconstruct them into something else. Check out some of the stuff Jose Andres is doing here in DC. His stuff is amazing. Simply slapping a burger around on a fryer and serving it is not elite.

 Quote:
Paul Booth, Guy Aitchison, Kat Von D, Vincent Castigula, etc... are all "Elite" tattoo artists by second definition. They are the rock stars of the tattoo world. I am by no means diminishing your work ta2zz, just clearing up word confusion. You ask Paul Booth what he thinks of himself he will say, "I'm a big fat guy from Jersey. I'm nothing special and over-paid." This is a prime example of how modest but confident men are the first to succeed in life.


Have you ever met Paul Booth? I guess not, or you wouldn't have put him in this list. That comment must have been from 10 years ago or more. His ego precedes him. I've met him at 2 different tattoo conventions, and he is an over inflated dick. Kat Von D? Because she has a show on tv? I wouldn't set foot in her shop. I've seen her work. Not worth the price she charges. I'll give you Guy. His work is pretty impressive. And who is the other guy? If I have never heard of him, he must not be that elite.

You are trying to paint Elite into a corner with too small of definition. There is more to it than what Merriam-Webster would have you think.
_________________________
Beer, the reason I get up every afternoon.

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#26779 - 07/04/09 12:28 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: ]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
Big Slick
active member


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
 Quote:
I asked, "If your boss is being a douche and talking shit to you, what do you do?" By Satanic standards you are to tell him to go out side and play hide-and-go-fuck-himself! Any reasonable person on the planet with a semi-secure job knows that this is not the case, sometimes you just gotta bite the bullet. So, if we were to follow TSB to a fucking T, most of us would either be in the ER eating through a straw or fired and homeless.


It's called using lesser black magic. You become the chameleon. You blend in. You make notes. You look for fuckups. You take advantage of every training program he offers. You build your resume. Then you begin looking for a new job. Meanwhile, you work the system. You refer back to your notes and documents for the fuckups. You call OSHA. Have them do a safety inspection. You call the fire marshall to have them see if they are in compliance. Check with the Labor Dept or your state and local labor organizations to verify if any of his questionable actions are legal. Only a dullard would challenge the boss to fight. Again, missing the point.

BTW, TSB is not the be all, end all of Satanic thought. I suggest users take a look at the thread regarding Satanic reading.
_________________________
Beer, the reason I get up every afternoon.

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#33638 - 01/07/10 07:48 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: satansydney]
Baron dHolbach Offline
member


Registered: 12/29/09
Posts: 162
 Originally Posted By: satansydney
i think satanists are born, certain life experiences brings it out in them.


My Satanism was both born and made, similar to what you suggest, except that more causal than life experience was my own inner process, which of course cannibalizes life experience for parts, like a mechanic who gets his hands on a totaled car.

To employ another analogy, my in-born tendencies were hardened by inner pressure, as coal is hardened by tectonic pressure into diamond.

In-born skepticism became rigorous empiricism. In-born realism became rigorous materialism. In-born cynicism became rigorous Atheism. In-born pragmatism, hedonism, and impatience with fools and hypocrites became rigorous Satanism, which of course draws strength from the prior three disciplines.

As I more fully awakened, I didn't become a new person, but I became more fully what I already was. It was a ripening, like fruit on the vine.
_________________________
The baboon is the soul of man.



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#33722 - 01/08/10 07:24 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Baron dHolbach]
Cesare Borgia Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Madrid, Spain
 Originally Posted By: Baron dHolbach
[quote=satansydney]
As I more fully awakened, I didn't become a new person, but I became more fully what I already was. It was a ripening, like fruit on the vine.


That´s the key. The only natural path is TLP, the other one TRP with its morality is not real.

People is instinctive by nature, but their schemes have been broken with morality and the christian nihilism(in West countries).

Even christians act with egoism, selfishness, they love themselves more than anything else in life, they don´t love their neighbor at all, they don´t practice egalitarianism, they wont even put the other cheek.Like all good satanist do.

But their prudery wont let them know themselves as they realy are.Their hipocrisy stops their real self.

So every body is a Satanist but not everybody is as clever to know it.

Vulgar people condemn the Vitalist philosophy of Satanism because their minds have been educated in the Christian nihilism that denies life, instincts,and nobility qualities like: pleasure,courage, pride, etc.and makes apology of the qualities of losers and resented plebs:humility, meekness, egalitarianism, poverty, etc(this last RHP qualities don´t exist in nature and are dangerous for our instinctive personalities).

Satanism is sincere and aristocratic not for rabble as RHP philosophies.

We, as satanists , accept our nature and act as a result for our own sake and profit.



Edited by Cesare Borgia (01/08/10 08:13 AM)

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#33738 - 01/08/10 03:52 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Cesare Borgia]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
So every body is a Satanist but not everybody is as clever to know it.


Really, everyone? Are you sure about that? I'm not going to tear you a new asshole, yet, instead I will give you a chance to defend your position. What makes you say that everybody is a Satanist?
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#33746 - 01/08/10 08:04 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Cesare Borgia]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: Cesare Borgia
 Originally Posted By: Baron dHolbach

As I more fully awakened, I didn't become a new person, but I became more fully what I already was. It was a ripening, like fruit on the vine.


That´s the key. The only natural path is TLP, the other one TRP with its morality is not real.

The left hand paths, Christianity, morality, Satanism all are of human construct. How can anything made by humans not be natural or real? This would suggest that humans are not natural as well and this squeaks of creationism to me.

 Originally Posted By: Cesare Borgia
Even christians act with egoism, selfishness, they love themselves more than anything else in life, they don´t love their neighbor at all, they don´t practice egalitarianism, they wont even put the other cheek.Like all good satanist do.

What you describe is basic human nature, humans act like humans. While I am not cutting you a new one either, I do find your views of all good Satanists turning the other cheek a little fluffy and a bit disturbing. Now if you slap me or most any other Satanist and you are given the other cheek you would do best to run. Stomping you into the ground is already firmly set in the mind at this point, any offering of a second cheek is only a setup for retaliation.

 Originally Posted By: Cesare Borgia
We, as satanists , accept our nature and act as a result for our own sake and profit.

What you say here seems to contradict what you said previously in this post. Perhaps it is just a language barrier after all.

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#33749 - 01/08/10 09:09 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: ta2zz]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
My observation is that the LHP is the natural path - the path of nature. Mother Nature is a bloody bitch. She is without mercy. Nature ruthlessly operates under the Natural Law that might is right. In nature, stupidity is actually fatal.

It is only in RHP constructs do we find stupidity and weakness being rewarded.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#33756 - 01/09/10 05:33 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Fist]
Cesare Borgia Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Madrid, Spain
 Originally Posted By: Fist
My observation is that the LHP is the natural path - the path of nature. Mother Nature is a bloody bitch. She is without mercy. Nature ruthlessly operates under the Natural Law that might is right. In nature, stupidity is actually fatal.

It is only in RHP constructs do we find stupidity and weakness being rewarded.


I suscribe to this point of view.

6Satan6Archist6:

We humans are animals too so Satanism vindicates our instincts as animals, but those instincts have been condemned during 2000 years, now people have atrophied senses and put their mind under a morality that no animal of any species have. In fact morality is against our own survival.

If you see human beens in the past, before christianism, people was not moral, religion cults were cults of fertility(sex was good, pro-life), people, when neccesary, acted with cruelty to defend themselves.

Not every body was equal(that was stated in the French Revolution influenced by christians), but aristocracy, as in the animal kingdom, was the rule.

The strongest and inteligent ruled the world.

Christianism changed the rules. Instead of those moral values, more naturals to our instincts, they turned to change the whole world into "civilization", by teaching the most creeping and unnatural behavior in their moral with a sentence over pleasure, vengeance, pride, inteligence, wisdom, etc.

ta2zz:

What I said is that giving the other cheek is not natural.

The christian morality is not natural, even when created by human animals.Is the reflex of the psicological feeling of a nation, the jewish, that was having great troubles in past times.

That morality is created under the base of the existence of a world in heaven and beyond the grave. This nihilism denies the real world and existence and creates another one "better".I think, and I hope that many in this forum, that all that "better" world is not true.

Satanism as a Vitalist Philosophy gives this live the highest priority and its morality is based on what makes us strongger and more apt to deserve it.

The only logic to a morality like christian is that it prepares you for an eternal life only, it won´t give you the tools to act as a surviver. Chtistian morality is the highest human foolness of all.

6Satan6Archist6, ta2zz:

Conclusion.

-Satanism vindicates human animal nature.

-Religious morality is false and dangerous to human race(because is not natural).

-Satnists are aristocrats in the sense that they are a few people that don´t deny their instincts.

- Not every body can do this. Centuries of "sinfull" mind teached by judeo-christian religions have rotten today´s human capacity to act like satanists(that is, like healthy people).



Edited by Cesare Borgia (01/09/10 06:24 AM)

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#33760 - 01/09/10 06:17 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Cesare Borgia]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3142
 Quote:

If you see human beens in the past, before christianism, people was not moral, religion cults were cults of fertility(sex was good, pro-life), people, when neccesary, acted with cruelty to defend themselves.

People before Christianity already had moral values, if the human specie acted as you came to describe here, then the Roman civilasation and others wouldn't have been organised at all.
Morality is not a christian invention, it is a man-made agreement on certain terms of behaviour and acting to achieve a structure in human society with most of the people agreeing on this kind of "law".

To make it more clear: morality is used as a law to create a healthy society in which unmoral and disturbing actions are being shunned.
Thus your statement "In fact morality is against our own survival." is plain bullshit. The use of morals just made the human specie one of the most succesfull in the last 10 000 years.

 Quote:
What I said is that giving the other chick is not natural.

Chick? I hope you know that selling humans is against the law..

 Quote:
Religious morality is false and dangerous to human race(because is not natural).

Taking a look on the history of mankind, I can easily state that religious morality was a keystone in forming a structure within human society, making it possible "we" have become succesfull.
Only negative part is the belief in mystic and divine still being rooted within society. A belief which should actually be rooted out in the last hundred years with the advancement of science.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#33761 - 01/09/10 06:39 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Dimitri]
Cesare Borgia Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Madrid, Spain
Excuse me, I meant cheek.

My friend, you are confusing human law with morality.

Morality represents the will of an almighty gog, the last cause. Morality gives metaphisical punishment and prize.Morality states that there are universal values good and bad.

Morality was created to subjugate the weak with fear. That means humans saying other humans that what they say is truth because is god will.

Law is just a convenience, a pact between human beings.

Law made romans a great civilization, not morality. Humans to be able to live together need laws to respect each other.

A satanist respect the human laws, not divine laws, that is morality.


Edited by Cesare Borgia (01/09/10 06:54 AM)

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#33764 - 01/09/10 06:45 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Cesare Borgia]
Cesare Borgia Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Madrid, Spain
Though, you have reason, Romans had a morality, but a morality based on the instinct, on the strong over the week.A morality based on victory and pride.

Not the christian morality that is against human been and defends the week over the strong, stupid men over the wise men.


Edited by Cesare Borgia (01/09/10 06:55 AM)

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#33766 - 01/09/10 07:26 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Cesare Borgia]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3142
Human law IS based on morality.
If there was no morality, there was no law to obey.
The discussion here (at the moment) is about the importance and ones view on a certain moral statement.

While I reject most Christian morals involving my comitment to a god and/or other divine creature, I still live up to other morals as described by Christianity and rational logic.
While it is true that there are many fallacies on how one should live or act by most religions, not all written statements must be disregarded.

Will you commit murder? Will you rape a person without any reason? As far as I know Christian faith shuns upon these actions, just as most Satanists does.

 Quote:
A satanist respect the human laws, not divine laws, that is morality.

If that's the case, you should respect the laws of Islam, Christianity,.. since they are also man-made.

I'm not your friend by the way.


Edited by Dimitri (01/09/10 07:28 AM)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#33767 - 01/09/10 08:16 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Cesare Borgia]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
 Quote:
My friend, you are confusing human law with morality.


Correct.

Man is a social animal. Man has walked the Earth for over 500,000 years. Civilization has only existed for 5000 to 10,000 years on the outside. For the time prior to agrarian civilization man survived by being part of a social group. Survival demanded some form of Social Contract Theory. The general agreement is that if I am in need you will help me, and if you are in need I will help you. This is the basic level of human organization and happens all the time independently of any formal social structure or moral code. Children know this instinctively because evolutionary selection pressures have hardwired people to think this way.

In fact, it was the rise of formalized national govts that caused man to become more savage and less likely to help their own kind. It was only after the Enlightenment that this basic form of human organization was formally rediscovered and called Enlightened Self Interest. The American Founding Fathers use it as the basis of the new US govt.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#33768 - 01/09/10 08:23 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Dimitri]
Cesare Borgia Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Madrid, Spain
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

While I reject most Christian morals involving my comitment to a god and/or other divine creature, I still live up to other morals as described by Christianity and rational logic.
While it is true that there are many fallacies on how one should live or act by most religions, not all written statements must be disregarded.


I agree with you in this, but those logical parts of morality are not the moral of nihilism, those are convenient pacts between humans.

To put it clear.

A morality that is based on the " Mount Sermon", that is the base of christianism, denies life:

Not to resist the evil man, love to your ennemies, put the other cheek, if someone asks you something give it to him, love your neighbour as you love to yourself.

-"Blessed those who cry"

-"Blessed those who are pursued by my name"

I can´t put it clearer buddy.


That´s a moral for the week, and that moral won´t make any one success in life or anywhere else.

About killing:

Killing is so relative that in many cases is justified as you already know.

War, self defense, etc...

If you go to an islamic country you´d better respect their laws even when based on the Coran, but that doesn´t mean they are rational.

If a satanic woman goes without a vail is dangerous for her in an islamic country, so she´d better use it, but that is not a rational law.







Edited by Cesare Borgia (01/09/10 08:28 AM)

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#33769 - 01/09/10 08:40 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Fist]
Cesare Borgia Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Madrid, Spain
 Originally Posted By: Fist
 Quote:
My friend, you are confusing human law with morality.


Correct.

Man is a social animal. Man has walked the Earth for over 500,000 years. Civilization has only existed for 5000 to 10,000 years on the outside. For the time prior to agrarian civilization man survived by being part of a social group. Survival demanded some form of Social Contract Theory. The general agreement is that if I am in need you will help me, and if you are in need I will help you. This is the basic level of human organization and happens all the time independently of any formal social structure or moral code. Children know this instinctively because evolutionary selection pressures have hardwired people to think this way.

In fact, it was the rise of formalized national govts that caused man to become more savage and less likely to help their own kind. It was only after the Enlightenment that this basic form of human organization was formally rediscovered and called Enlightened Self Interest. The American Founding Fathers use it as the basis of the new US govt.



I agree with you. Those are totaly human and rational laws that don´t pretend to be human and are neccesary to survive, they are not derived from moral religion at all.

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#33770 - 01/09/10 08:44 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Cesare Borgia]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3142
Do me a favor and read the text I've written and you came to quote a bit better.
Didn't I state "While it is true that there are many fallacies on how one should live or act by most religions, not all written statements must be disregarded."?

With this I was actually implying to THINK about the moral and see if it isn't a fallacy within your reality.
"Blessed those who cry, Blessed are those who pursue my name" are examples of morals who may fly in some peoples view, yet if I start investigating and thinking about it: it doesn't fly with me.
Therefor I disregard it. Plain simple as it is.

 Quote:
Killing is so relative that in many cases is justified as you already know.

War, self defense, etc...

Can you justify a war? If so, you should attend a peace conference...
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#33771 - 01/09/10 08:57 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Dimitri]
Cesare Borgia Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Madrid, Spain
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

Didn't I state "While it is true that there are many fallacies on how one should live or act by most religions, not all written statements must be disregarded."?

With this I was actually implying to THINK about the moral and see if it isn't a fallacy within your reality.
"Blessed those who cry, Blessed are those who pursue my name" are examples of morals who may fly in some peoples view, yet if I start investigating and thinking about it: it doesn't fly with me.
Therefor I disregard it. Plain simple as it is.


Then if we agree in this, man, no more words about it.

If a war is not justified ask those who´s countries are being attacked, they´ll give you a better answer.

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#33784 - 01/09/10 03:42 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Cesare Borgia]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
In fact morality is against our own survival.


Oh, is it? Care to elaborate on that?

 Quote:
f you see human beens in the past, before christianism, people was not moral, religion cults were cults of fertility(sex was good, pro-life), people, when neccesary, acted with cruelty to defend themselves.


People weren't moral prior to Christianity? I don't agree with that statement one bit. While it may be a matter of what one considers to be moral, I would argue that people have pretty much always had some form of morality. The only difference between "us" and "them" (modern man and ancient man) are the specific morals that are adhered to. And people act with cruelty to defend themselves even to this to day. I don't know of anyone who wouldn't fight with every ounce of strength they have if their life were threatened.

 Quote:
Not every body was equal(that was stated in the French Revolution influenced by christians), but aristocracy, as in the animal kingdom, was the rule.

The strongest and inteligent ruled the world.


Aristocracy in the animal kingdom and the strongest and intelligent ruled the world? No and definitely not.

 Quote:

-Satnists are aristocrats in the sense that they are a few people that don´t deny their instincts.


You are obviously misusing the word. Aristocracy is a form of government whereby rule is reserved for the highest social classes.

Also, I deny my instincts sometimes. There will come times where someone says something that pisses me off and my first instinct is to kick them in the teeth but I don't because that isn't the best course of action. It is not that Satanists don't deny their instincts, rather they realize that such things are human and not something to be ashamed of as the Judeo-Christian religions would have us believe.

 Quote:
Not every body can do this. Centuries of "sinfull" mind teached by judeo-christian religions have rotten today´s human capacity to act like satanists(that is, like healthy people).


Exactly, not everyone can do that. Therefore, your belief that "everybody is a Satanist" is a false belief.
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No gods. No masters.

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#33790 - 01/09/10 05:40 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Cesare Borgia Offline
stranger


Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 30
Loc: Madrid, Spain
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
 Quote:
In fact morality is against our own survival.


Oh, is it? Care to elaborate on that?

I´m talking about morality based on the "Mount Sermon"

 Quote:
f you see human beens in the past, before christianism, people was not moral, religion cults were cults of fertility(sex was good, pro-life), people, when neccesary, acted with cruelty to defend themselves.


People weren't moral prior to Christianity? I don't agree with that statement one bit. While it may be a matter of what one considers to be moral, I would argue that people have pretty much always had some form of morality. The only difference between "us" and "them" (modern man and ancient man) are the specific morals that are adhered to. And people act with cruelty to defend themselves even to this to day. I don't know of anyone who wouldn't fight with every ounce of strength they have if their life were threatened.

Again, I´m referring to christian morality based on the "Mount Sermon". This is the base of that religion.

 Quote:
Not every body was equal(that was stated in the French Revolution influenced by christians), but aristocracy, as in the animal kingdom, was the rule.

The strongest and inteligent ruled the world.


Aristocracy in the animal kingdom and the strongest and intelligent ruled the world? No and definitely not.

Are you sure about this?

Aristocracy ruled always in the past, even in the "democratic" Greece, only a small group of senators elected a governor.

In the animal kingdom, gregarian animals are ruled by a few or only one, like lions(only one mate all the females) and he commands other lions, gorillas, wolves and other animals are structured in a hierarchy manner.


 Quote:

-Satnists are aristocrats in the sense that they are a few people that don´t deny their instincts.


You are obviously misusing the word. Aristocracy is a form of government whereby rule is reserved for the highest social classes.

Not the highest social classes, but the best qualified. wiseness and inteligence are the only criteria to govern in an aristocratic system

When I say that satanists are aristocrat is that they believe in a moral sustained by aristocrats in ancient times, and even now, that is:

Pride, strenghth, inteligence, good sense, enjoyment of life, stetic, courage, etc. All this values are oposed to christianism morality. You alredy know it, you have read the SB.

Also, I deny my instincts sometimes. There will come times where someone says something that pisses me off and my first instinct is to kick them in the teeth but I don't because that isn't the best course of action. It is not that Satanists don't deny their instincts, rather they realize that such things are human and not something to be ashamed of as the Judeo-Christian religions would have us believe.

In this I agree with you, a satanist is a Gentleman, he won´t do whatever happens through his head, I´m saying that he or she recognizes his or her basic instincts, but don´t deny them and is not ashamed by them.

 Quote:
Not every body can do this. Centuries of "sinfull" mind teached by judeo-christian religions have rotten today´s human capacity to act like satanists(that is, like healthy people).


Exactly, not everyone can do that. Therefore, your belief that "everybody is a Satanist" is a false belief.

They are satanists in the sense that they have the same instincts that you and I have.Satanism is about exalting our instincts, that´s what we do. Sins torment them, not to us, but they would like to do the same we do.

That won´t make them satanists, but they have a potential towards it because is their nature.


In fact all we know that christian morality is only for parishioners, not for priesthood and pastors, they all act against the christian principles, but they make the rules and behave without "Mount Sermon" principles, they are their aristocracy, they behave the way they want as thought they were satanists.



Edited by Cesare Borgia (01/09/10 06:03 PM)

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#35800 - 02/19/10 05:34 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Anonymous]
CanisMajor Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
I disagree completely,hellbent666.

It appears that you define being Satanist as strict adherence to TSB or awareness of ceremonial magic.Neither apply to the equation.

Ambition,independence,creativity,intellect:all are Satanic qualities that can be nurtured,but are often inborn and hard-wired.Diabolical existentialist that I may be,I truly believe that some folks are actually born lazy,conformist,uncreative and stupid.

However,the image of toddlers screaming "Shemhamforash" had me laughing my ass off
_________________________
For every complex problem,there is a solution that is simple,neat,and wrong.
H.L Mencken

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#35827 - 02/19/10 04:58 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Noctuary Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/01/10
Posts: 92
 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel
The disposition of certain people more easily lends itself to learning critical skills like creativity, lateral thinking, non-conformity, self-reliance, etc. To a certain degree, this is nature, but there is also a lot of nurture involved. In much the same way that you can't teach a quadriplegic how to wrestle, you can't make everyone non-conformists.

My most important job is that of being a parent. I hope that I can raise my kid to make intelligent choices for herself. I don't want to make a copy of myself. That would be a complete and utter waste. If I can do right by her, I will have given someone I love a good chance at making it in life.

Some people are naturally disposed to becoming non-conformists, individualists, etc. I like those people. They're like people, only better. Guess what they're called?

I agree that Satanism involves both nature and nurture. I really get annoyed by those that claim you have to be 'Born a Satanist' and not just become one. It's snobby. It's like when I go on Pagan forums and they introduce themselves and give the long list of lords and ladies they descend from as a reason they are 'special'. Just bs.

Gays. You are either born gay or become gay. Either way you suck cock. And that's all that matters.
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#35830 - 02/19/10 05:52 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Noctuary]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3898
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

I really get annoyed by those that claim you have to be 'Born a Satanist' and not just become one.

I get annoyed by the fluffies that try to turn Satanism into some egalitarian self help system. I guess we all have our pet peeves.

Those that are Satanists understand that not just anybody can 'convert' to it, and why. Anyone can study the Satanic Bible and proclaim themselves a Satanist, but that doesn't make it so. The type of person that actually sees the world as a Satanist does and acts accordingly is a rare thing indeed.
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#35833 - 02/19/10 06:46 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Dan_Dread]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
I have to agree with Dan on this.
You can claim to be anything you want, but it doesn't make it so.

Maw, most parents suck at raising kids.
I think it is more nature than nurture, people are just hard wired differently.

I will use my family as an example.
Same parents, same female sex, each a year apart.

Me = Satanist, flexible on issues that I care about
Sibling 1 = Born again Xitian, conservative/liberal
Sibling 2 = Religious non practicing Xitian, red republican

You can't really change who are inside, you might be able to lie about it, but when you look in the mirror, you know the true heart of the matter.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#35849 - 02/20/10 04:32 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Dan_Dread]
Noctuary Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/01/10
Posts: 92
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
 Quote:

I really get annoyed by those that claim you have to be 'Born a Satanist' and not just become one.

I get annoyed by the fluffies that try to turn Satanism into some egalitarian self help system. I guess we all have our pet peeves.

Those that are Satanists understand that not just anybody can 'convert' to it, and why. Anyone can study the Satanic bible and proclaim themselves a Satanist, but that doesn't make it so. The type of person that actually sees the world as a Satanist does and acts accordingly is a rare thing indeed.

Oh I agree with you. I am simply saying there are many reasons people become Satanists. And I am pretty sure it's in the gray area of nature/nurture. To me it doesn't matte if you were born a Satanist or not. It's not going to do you any good to pronounce it in kindergarten. \:D
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#35867 - 02/20/10 06:20 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Noctuary]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1738
Loc: New York
I think if you change the word “Satanism” to “Free Spirit,” you can tell at a very early age if a person is one or not. Actually, someone other then the person themselves might not see it until later in life, but if a person is not born with a true Free Spirit, it is unlikely that they can develop that nature, even if they ACT like they possess that trait. Even when society crushes that inborn spirit for independence, I doubt that they can ever truly put out that deep spark within.
Same goes for Satanism. No matter what circumstance a person is born into, there has to be that initial Satanic spark inside of them. Even if it is suppressed by the individual or society it is always there.

I believe that it is more likely that one can be born a Satanist, and never have the opportunity to live as one, as opposed to being born as a non Satanist, and then becoming one later in life.

As for
 Quote:
I really get annoyed by those that claim you have to be 'Born a Satanist' and not just become one


You can be annoyed by it all that you wish to let yourself be annoyed by it, but it doesn't make it untrue. ;\)

My opinion only.
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"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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#35887 - 02/21/10 09:05 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Asmedious]
CanisMajor Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
A predisposed inclination towards independence is a rarity among herd animals. There's no impetus to "break away". It is simply NOT herd behavior. And CANNOT be learned.

The implication here is that pack animals usually do not survive without the pack,so they almost never develop the desire to do so. Darwinism for Dummies.

You may be able to nurture a non-conformist spirit,but you cannot create one.



Edited by CanisMajor (02/21/10 09:07 AM)
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For every complex problem,there is a solution that is simple,neat,and wrong.
H.L Mencken

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#35895 - 02/21/10 11:49 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Asmedious]
Nyte Offline
member


Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 380
Loc: Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Asmedious
I believe that it is more likely that one can be born a Satanist, and never have the opportunity to live as one, as opposed to being born as a non Satanist, and then becoming one later in life.


This statement rings so true on so many levels, it's almost scary. I think many people never allow themselves to explore far enough to truly know what or who they are. They like fitting into the definition of normal more than they like themselves. I was relieved to figure out that all the "things" I had suppressed for so long were actually the norm for me. I find it interesting that what I draw, create, or what I like is considered "dark" to those around me. But then again, I've always been drawn to the "forbidden", as far back as I can remember. That's not to say that I don't enjoy many things that are considered normal, like comfy old jeans and a t-shirt.
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#35898 - 02/22/10 02:42 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Nyte]
Noctuary Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/01/10
Posts: 92
Hmm seems the consensus is leaning toward you are born with the predisposition to be a Satanist more often then not. I won't disagree with that idea. Though I don't think it's 100% accurate. . Though from my point of view I think differently. When I was Muslim and studying the Qu'ran etc I learned something pretty nifty. Islam believes all humans are born Muslims. And that when people who become Muslim consciously are called reverts and not converts. Re-enforcing the idea of always being a Muslim from birth. So...of course I don't really think that's accurate. The same way I don't think you are born a Satanist. Because then...well the two start to sound similar. And I then have to put that whole idea on the back burner. Because then it starts to sound like religious gumbo. So I am going to stick with the idea that you aren’t born a Satanist no more then you are born a Muslim. Unless you’d like to tackled the concept of Satanic Muslims…which I have been known to describe myself as when feeling silly.

And that's just my opinion as someone who has been on a few sides of religion ;\)
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Devils speak of the way in which she'll manifest

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#35899 - 02/22/10 04:24 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Noctuary]
CanisMajor Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 49
Loc: Texas
By that interpretation of Islam,the implication is that we are all birthed into some sort of egalitarian "Brotherhood of Man",thereby making everyone a de facto Muslim by default.

Made in gods' image,
everybody the same.

This is herd conformity. Nurture at its worst.

Brotherhood has no place in Satanism.
_________________________
For every complex problem,there is a solution that is simple,neat,and wrong.
H.L Mencken

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#35902 - 02/22/10 03:18 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: CanisMajor]
Noctuary Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/01/10
Posts: 92
 Originally Posted By: CanisMajor
By that interpretation of Islam,the implication is that we are all birthed into some sort of egalitarian "Brotherhood of Man",thereby making everyone a de facto Muslim by default.

Made in gods' image,
everybody the same.

This is herd conformity. Nurture at its worst.

Brotherhood has no place in Satanism.



Well that's a slightly skewed view of it (though I don't blame you. Most outsiders have those sort of feelings about Islam. As did I before I got inside of it) But yes, there is no place for that in Satanism. Which is why having a core belief that Satanists are born Satanists sits wrong with me. We can't exactly reject religion and then go ahead and be it's brother in beliefs. So I think people are born human. And that's it. I don't think people are born religious or political etc etc.
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#35906 - 02/22/10 04:57 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Noctuary]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3898
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

So...of course I don't really think that's accurate. The same way I don't think you are born a Satanist. Because then...well the two start to sound similar.

What's so wrong with similarities? You and Hitler both have(had) two arms and two legs, but that doesn't make you the same person. It's always best to check the bathwater for babies before pulling the plug.

I don't really disagree that muslims are muslims from birth. Or at least, born with the correct disposition to be one. However, the idea that EVERYONE has the same disposition is downright silly.

The main difference as I see it is Islam is an outward seeking faith based belief system for those attuned to the 'light' side, whereas Satanism is an inward seeking logic based belief system for those more in league with the dark.

That the prior is faith based leaves a lot of flexibilty as to what the adherent might believe, though. Faith works for anything, so it's pretty much a matter of who fills your head full of crap first that defines what religion you are. These faith based types sometimes end up at Satanism as well, but these pretenders are always easy to spot.

With Satanism however,being logic based rather than faith based, there is really not so much wiggle room for creativity. Reality is as it is, and that's how it is. It becomes a matter of exploring that to it's fullest rather than filling the gaps with cotton candy. When the Satanist comes to Satanism it is because there is no other option.

It's a matter of self honesty.
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#35908 - 02/22/10 08:11 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Dan_Dread]
delusion Offline
pledge


Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 77
Loc: hawaii
 Quote:
It's a matter of self honesty.


I wonder if it has more to do with a definition fetish?

We know that it takes a little more than a red card in your wallet to be a Satanist. We know it takes more than angst and a love of heavy metal.

So the daring young individual is often pointed toward TSB as it seems to be THE literary gateway into hell. Closer inspection finds that much of that book is made up of other people’s philosophical input.

Doesn't the fact that there are creative, free spirited, bold, educated, aesthetically pleasing, creative, free spirited, suitheist, nonconformists with spot on punctuation and grammar out there living in the world who know about Satanism and don't care to play the definition game show which group is impersonating the other?

Doesn't the fact that many of the authors and philosophers who make up the standards of "satanic recommended reading" never considered themselves Satanists imply that the Satanists has injected themselves into an already existing state of being/mind?

I guess it could be said that one should not define the soup by its individual ingredients. That Ayn Rand does not need to be a Satanist for her influence to lend its flavor to the meme.

But it does seem a bit like the Satanist is all too happy to go around town stealing philosophical bricks from which to build his house only to turn around and nail a note on the locked door that explains that this is a house by and for “born Satanists”. (Then again considering some of the types that knock on that door that can be an understandible move too.)

These are just some thoughts I had while reading the thread and others that follow a similar vein.

Looking forward to everyone's thoughts,

Delusion


Edited by delusion (02/22/10 08:25 PM)
Edit Reason: Afterthoughts

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#35912 - 02/23/10 04:47 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Dan_Dread]
Noctuary Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/01/10
Posts: 92
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
 Quote:

So...of course I don't really think that's accurate. The same way I don't think you are born a Satanist. Because then...well the two start to sound similar.

What's so wrong with similarities? You and Hitler both have(had) two arms and two legs, but that doesn't make you the same person. It's always best to check the bathwater for babies before pulling the plug.

I don't really disagree that muslims are muslims from birth. Or at least, born with the correct disposition to be one. However, the idea that EVERYONE has the same disposition is downright silly.

The main difference as I see it is Islam is an outward seeking faith based belief system for those attuned to the 'light' side, whereas Satanism is an inward seeking logic based belief system for those more in league with the dark.



That the prior is faith based leaves a lot of flexibilty as to what the adherent might believe, though. Faith works for anything, so it's pretty much a matter of who fills your head full of crap first that defines what religion you are. These faith based types sometimes end up at Satanism as well, but these pretenders are always easy to spot.

With Satanism however,being logic based rather than faith based, there is really not so much wiggle room for creativity. Reality is as it is, and that's how it is. It becomes a matter of exploring that to it's fullest rather than filling the gaps with cotton candy. When the Satanist comes to Satanism it is because there is no other option.

It's a matter of self honesty.


 Quote:
When the Satanist comes to Satanism it is because there is no other option.


Very well said. I tend to believe the same way.

I guess the problem I have is this:
If Satanists are born Satanists..then when another religion (say Islam) says you are born Muslim....There is a very big problem. Which is it I am born? Satanist? Muslim? I can't be both. Logically I tend to go with I wasn't born either. Two teams can't have me! \:D

And though I don't want to go in depth here about Islam..I will say islam is very much in inward seeking faith. The Qur'an tells you to question everything..including the Qur'an itself. It works outwardly as a very logical religion. Which is what attracted it to me. But I'll leave it at that. I don't want to bash or defend a faith I am no longer a member of...just explain it a bit from an actual hands on point of view.
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#35917 - 02/23/10 05:05 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Noctuary]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
ARGGGGG, Satanism is not a religion.

It is a system of philosophy. An internal compass that some people are born understanding, while others keep trying to justify it to themselves.

You can be born into a muslim, Xitian, jewish, or mormon religious faith, but if inside you know it's a lie, then it's a lie.

Satanist don't care if you are "on the team". I think more of us would be happier if less people wanted to join the team before they read they the rule book.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#35919 - 02/23/10 06:50 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Morgan]
Noctuary Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/01/10
Posts: 92
 Originally Posted By: Morgan

You can be born into a muslim, Xitian, jewish, or mormon religious faith, but if inside you know it's a lie, then it's a lie.


I am not sure if this was in response to my post..but eh..I'll go with yeah just to be on the safe side.

Yes, you can indeed be born into religion. But it's not what I meant. Islam believes you are Muslim (which to them is not a religion but a 'being of'. It get's hard to explain that if you aren't familiar with Muslims. It doesn't matter what religion you were born into..Islam believes you are all Msulims. It has to do with what it means. Islam means: Submission to God. Muslim means One who submits to God. So to them it's the definition of everything created. Rocks are Muslim. Stars are Muslims. Birds and bees and pandas too.

Anyways..so there you go.


Everything else you said I agree with. Especially about it being a philosophy
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#35929 - 02/23/10 02:32 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Noctuary]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3142
 Quote:
Yes, you can indeed be born into religion. But it's not what I meant. Islam believes you are Muslim (which to them is not a religion but a 'being of'. It get's hard to explain that if you aren't familiar with Muslims.

The "being born a Satanist" implies that a person is being born with the mindset to become a Satanist, but it also means that not everyone is being gifted with that specific mindset from birth.
Contrary to Islam where the more egalitarian idea of "everyone is Muslim", "being born a Satanist" can only be said from specific individuals.

A religion can claim that everyone belongs to them from birth, but time can only (and has) show(n) otherwise.


Edited by Dimitri (02/23/10 02:43 PM)
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#35932 - 02/23/10 04:49 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Noctuary]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3898
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

I guess the problem I have is this:
If Satanists are born Satanists..then when another religion (say Islam) says you are born Muslim....There is a very big problem. Which is it I am born? Satanist? Muslim? I can't be both.

Only you can answer that. Different people are wired..well..differently.
 Quote:

I will say islam is very much in inward seeking faith. The Qur'an tells you to question everything..including the Qur'an itself. It works outwardly as a very logical religion.

Inward seeking is seeking divinity and ultimate authority from within. Outward seeking is projecting these things outwardly. I'm pretty sure allah is thought to actually exist, somewhere out there, by every single muslim in the world.
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#35935 - 02/23/10 06:51 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Noctuary]
MatthewJ1
Unregistered



I thought I might add some comments here.

Hopefully this will make some sense and add something to the discussion.

The question seems to me to be: does the individual have some sort of innate quality or physiological propensity at birth, which necessarily makes him or her a Satanist?

I can understand the notion that the individual is a blank slate upon which experience writes, but beyond this: is there a core human nature, or rather a core Satanic human nature?

It is interesting to note that many people will subscribe to religious worldviews and belief systems and as a result you have Christian’s, Buddhists, and Muslims etc.

There seems to me to be a basic innate mental process taking place when belief systems are introduced to the individual. The individual will state - yes I accept this and will follow it, or, no I do not accept this and refuse to follow it.

Or, the individual will state – yes I need to be a part of this and need to be with others, or, I don’t want to be a part of this and don’t want to be with others.

Why this innate mental process? I don’t know. It seems to be the difference between being a sheep or being a wolf at some level.

If a belief system is accepted than experience seems to reinforce the belief system and the belief system is used to frame and interpret experience.

If the belief system is not accepted or loses credibility than the individual may perceive themself as an outsider or a fringe dweller until some other belief system is installed.

Where is the Satanist in all this? He or she has had to adopt Satanism because it was the only thing left over and which actually made sense, once reason had torn all belief systems apart.

Some people just refuse to accept anything without good reason. This is robust and healthy in my view.

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#36345 - 03/13/10 10:15 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Atralux Lucis]
exadust Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 91
Loc: georgia
The primal force that is within mankind has always exsisted. Some people are born with more than others. If you look into wildlife you will see the same thing. Some animals adapt to life better than others. Mankind invented alot of concepts religion, science and technology. But if all these things were taking away only True Satanists would be able to survive. We have the will to do so. La vey simply labeled it so likeminded people could interact with each other.
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Herein you will find truth and fantasy. Each is necessary in order for the other to exsist.

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#36349 - 03/13/10 10:37 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Vlad Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 21
Loc: Virginia
I believe that Satanists are born and not made.

"Satanism" is just a name and a symbol attached to a manner of living that has existed for as long as human kind. There were Satanists before the notion of "Satanism" was ever conceived. Satanism has simply allowed us to give it a name and to identify ourselves for what we are. I don't want to say personality type, as I don't want to confuse it with some kind of Myers-Brigg type of thing, but Satanists are simply a different breed. A cut above the rest that knows this and uses it to their advantage.

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#36376 - 03/14/10 05:04 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: exadust]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3142
 Quote:
The primal force that is within mankind has always exsisted. Some people are born with more than others. If you look into wildlife you will see the same thing.

What you actually state here is that a random person compared with another has varying degrees of primal force in his/her mind/body?
The primal force is existant in every human being, the sole difference is the mindset to acknowledge it.

 Quote:
Mankind invented alot of concepts religion, science and technology. But if all these things were taking away only True Satanists would be able to survive.

Apart from the disagreement of "inventing technology and science", these 3 are the main intellectual "weapons" of a Satanist.

On another note:
1)What are true Satanists anyway?
2) It's LaVey not La vey.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#36384 - 03/14/10 08:59 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Dimitri]
exadust Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 91
Loc: georgia
So what your are saying that if we didn't have religion,science and technology Satanist's wouldn't have weapons.Interesting.

No disrespect intended to LaVey I didn't preview that post before I submitted it.
_________________________
Herein you will find truth and fantasy. Each is necessary in order for the other to exsist.

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#36387 - 03/14/10 09:53 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: exadust]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3142
 Quote:
So what your are saying that if we didn't have religion,science and technology Satanist's wouldn't have weapons.Interesting.

No, it simply implies Satanism wouldn't exist at all.
Religion is a concept used to describe all the different philosophies and theisms with 1 term. The lack of religion would result in non-confrontational ideas and views wich make life so interesting. Satanism also falls within the description of religion (being it a philosophical way of living).

Abolishment of science for the Satanist would result in stagnation on intellectual level and would reduce his/her capabilities to those of faith and belief.

Abolishment of technology is equal on living like bacteria.
Say bye bye to fork and knife and eat with your hands(forks, knives, spoons or any other aiding thing is considered technology).

Abolishment of these three concepts would result for a human getting shot back to the prehistory (and perhaps further).
Satanism is acknowledging mans carnal nature, it does not imply embracing it fully and start living as prehistoric beings.


Edited by Dimitri (03/14/10 09:54 AM)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#36388 - 03/14/10 10:02 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Dimitri]
exadust Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 91
Loc: georgia
My meaning is that at this point in time if some global catastrophe wiped out technology and science that Satanists would be the main survivors. Because people rely on them for everything.

It is true that science helped label Satanism but the fact is that man has always been carnal and no amount of technology or scientific experiments will change that.
_________________________
Herein you will find truth and fantasy. Each is necessary in order for the other to exsist.

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#36390 - 03/14/10 10:18 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: exadust]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3142
 Quote:

My meaning is that at this point in time if some global catastrophe wiped out technology and science that Satanists would be the main survivors.

"if some global catastrophe"? Puh-lease..
Technology and science are things that can't be wiped out unless certain knowledge is being lost. But before knowledge is being lost, it will take several years/decades. Most of the time it is too less of a time to forget everything.

I imagine that if by some mysterious force everything we have of technology would disappear, but not the know-how, mankind can restore itself in less then 5 years.


Perhaps you should slow down a bit, THINK before you write! You are tossing in statements which aren't very well thought about.


Edited by Dimitri (03/14/10 10:19 AM)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#36393 - 03/14/10 10:34 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Dimitri]
exadust Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 91
Loc: georgia
If by chance you have read all of my post's you will see that I observe people's reaction's whether it is something I say or puncuation marks I use. I can see the type of person you are by your response. Being a Satanist is also about the shock value, and that comes in different degrees.

Manipulation has many sides you don't have to be infront of someone to manipulate them.
_________________________
Herein you will find truth and fantasy. Each is necessary in order for the other to exsist.

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#36394 - 03/14/10 10:35 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Dimitri]
felixgarnet Offline
active member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
Survivalism differs from Satanism; the latter is a personal philosophy and the former is the means to continue physical existence regardless of one's environment. Individual Satanists may well have the intellectual capacity to create solutions to minimize danger but anyone reliant on medical technology to stay alive would obviously perish quite quickly, Satanist or not.
_________________________
"Here's to Artifice!" - Anton Szandor LaVey.

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#36396 - 03/14/10 10:41 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: exadust]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3142
Yes, I have read all of your 27 posts, the only impression you give me is the one of a person who has read few things here (or elsewhere) but has failed to understand what is being said.

You want to give the impression of someone intelligent, yet upon a little pressure tends to give in.
Take my advice, think before you say/write something. I've smelled the blood of a poseur, surprise me and try to proof otherwise.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#36400 - 03/14/10 11:00 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Dimitri]
exadust Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 91
Loc: georgia
Really? A poseur. Is that supposed to infuriate me? Your opinion of me doesn't matter. We're not in highschool anymore. Or at least I'm not I can't speak for you. If you are so quick to accuse me of being a poseur then look into my black soul and see if it is true. A poseur is someone trying to be something they are not. I have always been me and I do not pose, I do not conform and I do not bow to others expectations.

Maybe you're the poseur. If not then you should realize that I am my own God and that what you think has no impact on what I do or think.
_________________________
Herein you will find truth and fantasy. Each is necessary in order for the other to exsist.

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#36402 - 03/14/10 11:09 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: exadust]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3142
This is turning a bit off-topic and turning into a bitch fight.
But yet I can't help to show your inconsistencies...

 Quote:
Your opinion of me doesn't matter.

In that case, why did you ask me if I read your responses?
It implies I give an opinion about you, which to some degree shows you actually DO care about it.

 Quote:
If you are so quick to accuse me of being a poseur then look into my black soul and see if it is true.

Black soul? Guess I indeed smelled something fishy here..

 Quote:
Maybe you're the poseur. If not then you should realize that I am my own God and that what you think has no impact on what I do or think.

Might be, but at least I have shown my backbone and skills to those with the same interests and came off quite well. You on the other hand are new here, acting with much grandeur but hasn't yet shown you are not the kind of person I came to describe.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#36441 - 03/14/10 07:24 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Doomsage680 Offline
member


Registered: 10/01/09
Posts: 111
Loc: NJ, USA
Thank you Mahwrinskel,

@Exadust...calm down. You mentioned manipulation as one of your Satanic tools. Understand that your actions thus far will only lose you respect, and while you seem to have some good ideas, your temperament negatively affects how they are perceived.

Dmitri is not a poseur. In any way. I find that allegation and that word's spelling funny. Back to the thread. Let's chill guys.

While I hold that there are a few born-Satanists, as in, those pre-disposed to understanding human nature and being willing to manifest their desires, for others it is something they must consciously work on.
Born-Satanists may also make less Satanic decisions that go against their goals, but because it is in their nature, it is easier for them to live "Satanically" without having to try so hard.
For myself, I was not born a satanist. Just wasn't in my cards. It is something I actuate in my life though, and I consider it the same as being a man. It is something of which I possess some qualities but am not quite yet. I must be aware of my decisions and keep in mind being responsible, not making excuses for failure, and intelligently working through problems. I consider these requirements for considering myself a man and a satanist, and I view both as necessary for my happiness. I desire nothing less.

I think I've always been drawn to born satanists. I remember as a kid, there were always a few children who didn't take crap from other kids, and when they were willing to get confrontational, people stopped causing problems. I don't mean that every kid who disobeys authority is even a little satanic, because, often, obeying authority is quite beneficial. (Don't chase balls into the street) But a few may have been.

I'm also an advocate of the philosophy that labels often over-define, and that a child who is raised from a very young age to be more responsible, mature, and independent can think and act as "satanically" as someone who was born predisposed.
But then again, they were taught, weren't they? And the difference is that the natural born would be Satanically inclined no matter what, while the other child wouldn't be the same under different conditions.

To address the question posed earlier about whether other religions have members who were born muslims or born christians, I think that the variety of human predispositions is sort of like a scale of people at one end who are satanists, and the other end who are either conformist or inept at understanding and manipulating their environment. This scale might be more complex than just the x-axis of a line graph, but maybe someone can post a diagram or something. Could be an interesting project. We'd have to compile a list of essential components of Satanism and un-Satanic qualities, but this is assuming that we are at the ultimate end of any such graph. Might be as simple as LHP-RHP, I'm not sure. Could be interesting.

~Doomsage680
_________________________
"I who have nothing but the comfort of my sins"
- Vinny Paz

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#36820 - 03/20/10 10:35 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Damis]
BloodRaven Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 12
Loc: Tucson, AZ
I’ve been pondering this question for a while. Many Satanists think you have to be born a Satanist’s to REALLY BE A SATANIST. I happen to disagree. This really goes back to the whole nature vs. nurture debate. I’m a psychology student and this subject comes up a lot. The current research suggests It’s actually a mix between the two that actually forms a persons characteristics. Here is a quote from my Human Development book, “We know that virtually no features of life-span development are due exclusively to either heredity or environment. Instead, development is always shaped by both: Nature and nurture are interactive influences”(Robert V. Kail, John C. Cavanaugh pg 5).

So with that said it is important to realize that one cannot be BORN a Satanist, but in fact it is an interaction between both their genetics and social programming. You can also look at it the other way and say that you cannot just BECOME a Satanist, you have to have the proper brain wiring in the first place. An interesting study on the importance of ones nature is the David Reimer study.

I think it would be interesting to study a group of babies who grow up and have different religions (Satanists included of course). Ones temperament as a baby stays with them for the rest of their life. I would hypothesize that there would be a temperament difference between the different groups of babies.

Here is an interesting side note. Aren’t all babies and small children very Satanic in a lot of ways?

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#36821 - 03/20/10 10:42 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: BloodRaven]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
I really have to ask, did you read the whole thread before you posted that????


What you wrote contradicts itself.....

.... fact it is an interaction between both their genetics and social programming.... ... I would hypothesize that there would be a temperament difference between the different groups of babies...

"Aren’t all babies and small children very Satanic in a lot of ways?"
Can you also say that.... the tykes are all sheep, all helpless, and very christian in a lot of ways, etc....


It's either in you or it's not.....

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#36822 - 03/20/10 11:02 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: BloodRaven]
exadust Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 91
Loc: georgia
On the topic of your side note:

What are you talking about babies are dependent on adults for everything. Satanists depend on their selves for survival. If babies needs aren't addressed they could die.

Babies are like dogs and are in no way "Satanic" as you put it!
_________________________
Herein you will find truth and fantasy. Each is necessary in order for the other to exsist.

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#36823 - 03/20/10 11:25 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: BloodRaven]
exadust Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 91
Loc: georgia
And on topic a Satanist's way of life is more along the line of evolution rather than an innate ability.

A person's way of life is formed on perception of one's desires and is not genetically inclined.

If it were based on genetics then hypothetically most of us would be inclined to walk the RHP since most of our ancestors walked that very path.
_________________________
Herein you will find truth and fantasy. Each is necessary in order for the other to exsist.

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#36829 - 03/21/10 01:16 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Morgan]
BloodRaven Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 12
Loc: Tucson, AZ
"What you wrote contradicts itself....."

Not really. Temperament does not encompass ones entire personality nor their entire philosophical leanings (although I hypothesized they have some effect). Different babies have different temperament but they fall into these three categorizes: easy, difficult and slow to warm up. Here is a simple summary:

http://www.parenting-ed.org/handout3/General%20Parenting%20Information/infant%20temperament.htm

What I'm curious about is if there is any correlation between these infant temperaments and future Philosophical/ religious beliefs. To my knowledge their has been no longitudinal study on the subject. Also, it's important to note that correlation does not equal guarantee as some people seem to think.

There are exceptions to every rule.....

Also, I think while there very well maybe a correlation between temperament and future philosophical leanings, I also think that having different sorts of parents and parenting styles would have an effect on future philosophical leanings here is a summary on parenting styles:

http://psychology.about.com/od/developmentalpsychology/a/parenting-style.htm

"Can you also say that.... the tykes are all sheep, all helpless, and very christian in a lot of ways, etc...."

You could absolutely say that. Thats why I posed it as a question not as a statement. Food for thought as it were. The other side of the argument would say that children are true to their carnal nature. Small children/babies lack the mental capacity to be heavily influenced by their society. Society likes to impose a lot of anti-hedonistic philosophies on us. Like it or not WE are far more influenced by society than a baby would be.

"A person's way of life is formed on perception of one's desires and is not genetically inclined."

Read the aforementioned David Reimer study.

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#36831 - 03/21/10 01:35 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: BloodRaven]
exadust Offline
pledge


Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 91
Loc: georgia
As far as someone else's study on any particular aspect of human behavior, predicting human behavior is not as easy as you think or anyone thinks.

Mankind's mentality is constantly changing. The belief systems people have are constantly changing.

But the philosophy behind Satanism has always exsisted and has never truely changed.

Like Morgan stated it is either in you or not. You either have the mindset to live in the carnality of human nature or you conform to manmade beliefs.

No one is born a Satanist.
_________________________
Herein you will find truth and fantasy. Each is necessary in order for the other to exsist.

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#36832 - 03/21/10 02:26 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: exadust]
BloodRaven Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 12
Loc: Tucson, AZ
"As far as someone else's study on any particular aspect of human behavior, predicting human behavior is not as easy as you think or anyone thinks. "

Such could be said about any aspect of science. Scientific ideas are always changing. What they say is good for you one day might be the very thing giving for cancer the next. BUT, that's no reason to ignore scientific studies. They are the best thing for really understanding the universe around us. Let the Christians do the ignoring of science, I'll have none of that.

To go back to Morgan's comment, "It's either in you or it's not.....". Well stated. To be a Satanist you gotta be well a Satanist. You have to view Anton LaVey's SB as your own philosophy. You don't have to agree about everything that the man ever said (I certainty don't), but your underlining Philosophy, and self-identification must be congruent to that of the SB PERIOD. Also, you can be LaVey incarnate but you are not are Satanist unless you self-identify as one. With that said, understand my previous comments were about what actually shapes a persons philosophy/religion not a definition of is a Satanist.

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#36837 - 03/21/10 04:11 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: BloodRaven]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3142
 Quote:
What I'm curious about is if there is any correlation between these infant temperaments and future Philosophical/ religious beliefs. To my knowledge their has been no longitudinal study on the subject. Also, it's important to note that correlation does not equal guarantee as some people seem to think.

Caracter or temperaments in no way correlate with a supposed philosophical/religious belief.
A philosophical and religious belief solely depends on the social factor. A childs mind is very malleable. At the very moment it comes out of the mother it already is open for social behaviour and influences of the people surrounding it.

The child might not have the capabilities to respond, but its senses are working, the influx is already busy copying the persons who are the nearest by and whom it is mostly in contact with.
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#36838 - 03/21/10 04:19 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Dimitri]
Noctuary Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/01/10
Posts: 92
It's after 1am...just got in from work..so I might be a bit short.
I wanted to address some general ideas and no one in particular.

If babies were born Satanic how come they tend to not be born in certain locations? Is there something in the water that makes Arab babies Muslim? I think not. I only ask because I was wondering...when and if I ever have children (through adoption) Would my baby be naturally a Satanist because of me? Or naturally Muslim because of the country it was born in? Doesn't make any sense to me. Of course I am just using these an as example. I do believe that who you are comes down to nurture and nature. Usually the truthful answer seems to lie somewhere in between two extremes.

*I bring up the Muslim aspect because...yes, my ex and I are working on getting back together. How that will work.. I have no idea. But hey....freakier things have happened in life!
_________________________
Devils speak of the way in which she'll manifest

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#36841 - 03/21/10 05:45 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Noctuary]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3142
 Quote:
If babies were born Satanic how come they tend to not be born in certain locations? Is there something in the water that makes Arab babies Muslim? I think not. I only ask because I was wondering...when and if I ever have children (through adoption) Would my baby be naturally a Satanist because of me?

Taking a look at the World map here you can (falsely?) come to the conclusion most Satanists are from the US and large parts of the UK.

Psychology is not immediately a field I have a broad knowledge off, but I wouldn't be surprised if your child (being it adopted or..) actually acquired a few skills which are considered "Satanic".

Perhaps it can be born with the mindset, it can also acquire it when growing-up. I don't know if characteristics can be inherited, but for the sake of simplicity I tend to agree with "born as.."(unless shown otherwise).
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#36844 - 03/21/10 07:04 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Noctuary]
Debbie Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/10/10
Posts: 11
Loc: Singapore
I am married to a Moslem & when I had given birth to my children my husband whispered the Moslem prayner in both their ears making them Moslem (i dont know how that works) . My son went through circumcision (final step into Moslemhood).
Goats are sacrificed too ..1 for girls & 2 for boys.

I on the other had went through all the rituals to make me catholic. Baptism,Communion & Holy Confirmation.

I guess it rituals that makes a child a Moslem , Catholic, Hindu , Buddhist or whatever religion the parents are.

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#36845 - 03/21/10 07:12 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Noctuary]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3898
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
A person can be a natural predator, confident and aware of things as they really are, with a natural propensity to manipulate reality around them and question all things, well before reading TSB and realizing there is a name for what they are.

The same can not be said for people naturally studying hadiths, quoting the quran and praying to the east each day.

This is common sense to anyone that gets Satanism in the first place. Go be a muslim, you seem more suited to it.
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ideological vandal

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#36855 - 03/21/10 01:49 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Debbie]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1738
Loc: New York
A Satanist can be exposed to any religion and or rituals as a child and still be a Satanist.
They are the ones who ask the questions which eventually exhaust their parent’s patience and are forced through pressure, physical distress, or social ostracization to fit the mold that the parents and their society wants them in.

As stated many times before, someone who is born with the Satanic spark within them may never have the opportunity to discover themselves as a Satanist if they are never exposed to the philosophy. They may attempt to conform to their surroundings but “something,” always seems to be out of balance between them and the “rest of the world.” If they attempt and WANT to try to fit in, they will be frustrated and stressed without knowing why.

Even in the most extreme religious circles, such as the Muslim world in the middle east, there are examples of a few people who when given the slightest of opportunity, will at great risk to themselves, break away and escape those that enslave them mentally and often physically.

A Satanist never has to search for an ideal or a philosophy to adhere to, but instead is searching for an explanation and clarity as to what it is that they have always possessed within them.
Once such a person discovers the Satanic community they do not require constant verification that they fit in, nor do they feel the desire to “learn” all that they can about Satanism by examining every piece of literature and opinion that has ever been put forth on the subject, because if they have the vocabulary to express themselves they are already qualified to write the doctrines themselves.
Reading the Satanic Bible, Might is Right and works by people such as Nietzsche, Ayn Rand, and many others are not seen as learning tools as much as tools for organizing and understanding ones pre-existing beliefs.

Satanic literature is there to assist the Satanist in recognizing who they are and to let them see that there are others out there on the same path. If they are not already aware of the term “Satanist,” then they also have the opportunity to adopt the label if they wish to, in order to identify themselves with one word to those who understand what “Satanist,” means.

So yes, one is either born a Satanist, or they are not.
If you are born as one, no matter how hard you may try. you cannot be anything else. You may wear the garments of the Right Hand path, read their words, recite their chants, and even allow a piece of your dick to be cut off, but you will never be truly one of them.

If you are not born a Satanist, you can read all of our literature, attend all of our secret meetings, learn our secret handshakes, cognitively understand our philosophy inside out and backwards, and if you are really good might occasionally fool us to believe that you are indeed a Satanist, but you cannot truly become one of us.
Even if you want to be a Satanist, and we really like you and want to help you in becoming one, it cannot be done.
_________________________
"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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#36857 - 03/21/10 02:18 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
It would be an interesting experiment to find a Satanist who is an identical twin.
It would be better, although not totally necessary, to find a Satanist with an identical twin who was separated at birth.

If the other identical twin turns out to be a devout Christian, as well as lacking the personality traits necessary to be categorized as a Satanist on non-religious grounds - then one could safely conclude that LaVey's hypothesis has been falsified - or at least requires re-interpreting to fit the evidence (e.g. by saying that both twins were born Satanists, but one diverged later on... which unfortunately makes it less meaningful as this could apply to anyone!)

Yes, I'm an empiricist, not a dogmatist. If this approach makes anyone feel uncomfortable, I'd advise them to head on over to the Letters to the Devil forum, where LaVey's word is axiomatic and freethinkers are persecuted.
(I can't link here, but do a Google search, with quotes, for "You are not a Satanist, you are shit.")


Edited by Meq (03/21/10 02:27 PM)
Edit Reason: Lazy fingers

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#36858 - 03/21/10 03:00 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Meq]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1738
Loc: New York
empiricist: (Empiricism–noun–Philosophy, the theory that all knowledge is derived from experience and observation.)
Yeah I will admit it, I had to look it up.

I agree that all KNOWLEDGE is derived from experience and observation. What I question is, how that knowledge is applied to personal ideals.

To give an extreme example, I may have met Jesus, seen all that he did, and even gotten verification from God himself that “J” is his son, and so on. But that knowledge in itself would not make me a Christian, if I did not accept what Jesus and God taught as my own ideal. In other words I may know what they state is true, but knowing doesn’t automatically make me “one of them.”
Out of fear of retribution I may claim to be a follower, and follow all of the customs that comes with being a follower, but on the inside I would feel greatly resentful, not to mention I would possibly lose self respect.

As for the identical twin experiment, I am doubtful if it would prove or disprove “the born satanist” theory either way.
I am in no way an expert on twins, but as far as I am aware, identical twins although they share many of the same traits (genes too I think?) can still have different personalities even at a young age, while being raised and exposed to the same environment. The ‘good twin’ and the ‘bad twin’ scenario comes to mind.
Again my knowledge of twins is limited to my exposure of a few written articles and science type specials on t.v, so I am definitely open to being wrong on this.

I do believe that the natural ability to think differently from ones indoctrinations comes from deeper within then from what is derived from experience and observation. I would like to say that it is likely in the genes, but if I clung to that idea, then that might contradict my notion that identical twins with identical genes can still have different personalities.

Could there be a “Satanic” gene? Sounds stupid as hell if one says it like that, but what if the term Satanic is removed from the equation and one asks, “could there be a gene in humans that would make it impossible for them to accept indoctrination to certain belief systems on the deepest levels?”

I believe that it has been shown that there are people who very well MIGHT be genetically predisposed to ACCEPT religious, and other common herd like indoctrination, therefore one might presume that the opposite could be true as well; either by having something extra or lacking something that most have in their genetic make up.
_________________________
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#36859 - 03/21/10 03:59 PM Born a Satanist VS Existentialist philosophy [Re: Asmedious]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
While I am not an existentialist, many here have expressed some sympathy towards existentialist philosophy, so I'd like to add another angle to the debate.

In existentialism, claiming to be born with any kind of fixed "essence", and identifying with such "essence" as one sees oneself, is considered an act of bad faith or inauthenticity.

This is because, as Jean-Paul Sartre put it, "man is nothing other than what he makes of himself" - so claiming to have identified one's "essence", and to claim to live in accordance with it, is seen as an excuse to avoid taking responsibility for what one chooses to make of oneself - an act of intellectual and moral cowardice.

This clash is interesting, since Satanism also strongly advocates individuality, personal responsibility and vital existence. However, the notion that "Satanists are born, not made" is an 'essentialist' idea, and thus highly anti-existentialist.

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#36867 - 03/21/10 07:09 PM Re: Born a Satanist VS Existentialist philosophy [Re: Meq]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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Well, as Morgan would say, it's either in you or it isn't. I have known there was something 'different' about me my whole life. Whether what made me what I am is pure genetics or a combination of genetics and early childhood experience isn't really important to me. By the time my personality had formed, I was what I am.

Trying to deconstruct this though philosophy may provide some insight, but it certainly won't change anything. Those of us that ARE, know we are. This isn't revealed knowledge or a faith based assumption, but rather the culmination of a lifetime of dealing with those that are not like us.
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#36869 - 03/21/10 08:08 PM Re: Born a Satanist VS Existentialist philosophy [Re: Meq]
SOLERIFT Offline
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Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 31
Loc: Dallas, TX
 Originally Posted By: Meq
This clash is interesting, since Satanism also strongly advocates individuality, personal responsibility and vital existence. However, the notion that "Satanists are born, not made" is an 'essentialist' idea, and thus highly anti-existentialist.

It's funny - I realize just how "existential" I am by reading the above. My first inclination is to say : the differences between an existentialist and a Satanist can be almost arbitrary. That is not to say that either model, taken to the extreme, will still be identical, but that for most Satanists, our philosophy started with a very existential question - "why"?

I guess a purely dogmatic existentialist would never congeal a personality, for lack of want to commit the sin of collapsing into definition, whereas a Satanist, is self-defined and chooses a definition to suit themselves.

I have defined myself in somewhat different ways at different times in my life, and my definition has always been somewhat malleable. I am as detached from the personality I have projected as I am from belief itself. That's pretty existentialist.

I have that knack for bending "circumstance" to my advantage one way or another. I can dawn a perspective simply for the enjoyment of understanding, without having to make it "my perspective".

I realize that I am WHATEVER I CHOOSE to make myself - I know this because as a Satanist, I have had an "awareness of self", for lack of a better term, for as long as I can remember.

It's a paradox - I cannot say that I was not born with this, but at the same time, I cannot say that I have not also made choices along the way that have led to my current mental/emotional disposition. It reminds me of the old argument : heredity vs environment.

Without several crucial experiences in my life, not the least of which was discovering Anton's book that defined Satanism as a philosophy for the first time - I would probably not define myself as a Satanist. In spirit, I would still be, but the label might have never occurred to me.

To me, saying I was born a Satanist is not literal, but an extenuation of my pride - meant to be exclusionary, to indicate a sincere admiration for those who share my love of the persona of the "adversary".

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#36883 - 03/22/10 03:26 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Dan_Dread]
Noctuary Offline
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Registered: 02/01/10
Posts: 92
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
A person can be a natural predator, confident and aware of things as they really are, with a natural propensity to manipulate reality around them and question all things, well before reading TSB and realizing there is a name for what they are.

The same can not be said for people naturally studying hadiths, quoting the quran and praying to the east each day.

This is common sense to anyone that gets Satanism in the first place. Go be a muslim, you seem more suited to it.

Are you referring to me? Because there is a post between mine and yours. And before I have at you.. I'd like to make sure it's me you are referring to.
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#36888 - 03/22/10 07:46 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Noctuary]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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 Quote:

Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Noctuary]

Yes I was talking to you, as anyone that can read can plainly see.

Feel free to 'have at me'. You may want to pray to allah for guidance first. You're gonna need it. ;\)
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#36889 - 03/22/10 08:04 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Dan_Dread]
Dan_Dread Offline
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A Satanist could never submit their will to some imaginary being, especially one that represents everything Satanism is not. That your mind is weak enough to even be able to entertain doing that is pretty conclusive evidence that you are probably a pretender. I look forward to your reply ;\)

Edited by Dan_Dread (03/22/10 08:05 AM)
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#36892 - 03/22/10 09:58 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Wake Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 93
Loc: Australia
Well done Maw.

Not intending to kiss some behind but I am actually 'grateful' you wrote this. All the former mislocated thoughts in my head (on the subject) were all simultaneously rearranged.
Cheers mate.
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#36899 - 03/22/10 01:44 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Wake]
felixgarnet Offline
active member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
I enjoyed that, Maw and agree with your theory (would I had the energy and motivation to have expressed myself so clearly). The nature/nurture debate about human beings will run on ad infinitum - inevitably, because the observer and observed cannot be separated. This conundrum will occur when discussing a propensity for Satanism as it will in discussing one for serial killing or musical composition.
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#36905 - 03/22/10 05:38 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
exadust Offline
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Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 91
Loc: georgia
I don't think anyone else could have said it any better.

If a person doesn't have anything to question or oppose how would that person know.

I would have always known that I was more capable than others but if I had never been exposed to organized religion I wouldn't have an outlet for people's ignorance. I mean most people's ignorance is reflected by their beliefs and without religion you would just have to say that most of the world's population is moronic and that is just pathetic!
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#36914 - 03/22/10 08:58 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3898
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel
However, I am not a determinist, and would say that the manifold intricacies of the human mind allow us to break away from the mold.


Well therein lay the crux of the issue. If you believe in 'freewill' as some essence that is somehow beyond the chains of cause and effect, then anyone can become anything. However in my opinion to invoke this kind of 'magical' thinking is no different than introducing a deity, or karma, or any other 'magical' x-factor into play, and leads nowhere useful.
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#36937 - 03/23/10 03:16 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Dan_Dread]
Noctuary Offline
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Registered: 02/01/10
Posts: 92
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
 Quote:

Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Noctuary]

Yes I was talking to you, as anyone that can read can plainly see.

Feel free to 'have at me'. You may want to pray to allah for guidance first. You're gonna need it. ;\)

I wanted to make sure. I prefer to think before I speak. Or I could end up sounding like an ass. Something I am sure mods on various forums have made clear you act like. I make no bones about stating at one point in my life I was going to revert to Islam because I fell in love. I tried to be something I am not and it actually came between my partner and I. Now that I am gaining ground back at my original balance of things.. I have become a happier person...something that is now bringing my partner and I back together. Though I am not a Muslim I still don't hold ill will towards the religion. Not taking up argument against it doesn't mean I am now a Muslim or am better suited toward it. Only I would know that for sure. And to have you questioning a complete stranger make you come off as ignorant. I've had no ill will with you yet you seem to want to take a jab where you can. All because maybe on the other forum you decided to act all high and mighty and pretend to have some 'secret knowledge' of people? Oh please. You got owned. Your ass handed to you and now here you are to pout...and of course all done...by my partner. Your apparent personal grudge is petty. Go pee on some other person's leg boy.
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#36940 - 03/23/10 06:34 AM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Noctuary]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
I think what Dan was trying to say is simply that a "Satanist" doesn't change who they are for someone else. It doesn't matter if its for love, money, sex, or kids.

Also, the fact that at times you confuse being born into a religion such as Muslim with being born a Satanist. A Satanist can be born into any religion, it is the internal PHILOSOPHY that makes a person a Satanist.

Now you say, you are happier because you are no longer Muslim, but being more true to your inner self. Fine, good luck with it.

I hope you noticed/came across one of the newer female members from Singapore (?). Her husband is Muslim as well, so she might be able to provide some more insight/experience in dealing with similar issues you may have with your husband.

\:\)

Morgan
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#36950 - 03/23/10 06:45 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Noctuary]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3898
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
The rather creative rendition of events given to you by your weirdy beardy boyfriend as per that 'other' forum is neither here nor there in regards to the point I was making, of which you just happened to be a convenient example. No need for you to get your burka all tied in a knot.
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#36957 - 03/23/10 09:01 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Dan_Dread]
Noctuary Offline
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Registered: 02/01/10
Posts: 92
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
The rather creative rendition of events given to you by your weirdy beardy boyfriend as per that 'other' forum is neither here nor there in regards to the point I was making, of which you just happened to be a convenient example. No need for you to get your burka all tied in a knot.

Thank God he's a terrorist. Makes things easier for me to rid myself of problems.
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#36958 - 03/23/10 09:07 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Noctuary]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3898
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Too bad they only blow up once. \:\) \:\)
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#36960 - 03/23/10 09:41 PM Re: Born a Satanist [Re: Dan_Dread]
Nemesis Offline
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Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
I think we can all agree that this thread has run its course. If involved parties wish to take the bashing to PM, that'd be just dandy.
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