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#26654 - 07/02/09 08:27 AM Re: Vegetarian, The Moral Argument. [Re: Nemesis]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
I didnt read through the scienctific rabble but I assume you have a good piece of info there, but also remember there will most likely be some other scientist which will have some other theory that methane is bad.

I think the land usage we have now could be used instead for vegetation rather than animal fields. I dont see why that wouldnt work.

I just want to put this out there too, if we are supposed to eat meat like other animals then why do we cook it, and why is it we cannot digest raw meat at the same efficiency as most other animals and not get ill?

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#26655 - 07/02/09 08:49 AM Re: Vegetarian, The Moral Argument. [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
What I posted was no theory, it was proof, evidence. Fact, if you will.

Even if we farmed 90% of our crops hydroponically, the larger stuff like corn and wheat would still have to be planted onto large acreages of farm land. Quite a lot of slaughterhouses only take up a small portion of land. The animals are kept in small stalls, not roaming across a prairie.

Humans are perfectly capable of digesting raw foods, providing they are fresh. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_animal_food_diets

Jesus man, do some fucking research. It took me all of 30 seconds to find some pertinent information about a raw meat diet.
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Nothing is sacred.

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#26658 - 07/02/09 09:13 AM Re: Vegetarian, The Moral Argument. [Re: Nemesis]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
Fine you want be rude and technical, then another study shows that our stomach acids are 10 times weaker than that of a lion and I am very sure if you try eating raw chicken you get ill. I shall look that up now anyway.

Also, put another thing out there, early man managed to live quite well eating only fruits and nuts etc, so why cant we do so now. Seems they didnt need meat to get all their nutrients and we are more or less the same species just evolved.

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#26661 - 07/02/09 09:57 AM Re: Vegetarian, The Moral Argument. [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Excuse me, sir, but your seeming inability to look up the facts for yourself, are considered more "rude" than my pointing these facts out to you. Technical? I'd rather get down to the nitty gritty of the how and why, instead of basing my beliefs and lifestyle on factual misconceptions and sweeping generalizations.

No where in the article link I provided did it mention eating chicken or other poultry raw. "Grass-fed" = bovines and other animals with hooves.

Again, your arguments, such as they are, display more PETA-type "evidence" of the diet of early man, which are easily contradicted by archeological findings:

"We have direct evidence that early hominids did leave stone cuts on a variety of animals," Mr. Bunn said. But while this indicated meat eating was important, he said that the team advocated a "balanced view," stating that the evidence did not suggest meat was used to the exclusion of plants. "There is no reason to jump to the conclusion that early hominids, with half our brains, could successfully hunt and kill large animals," he said.

Taken from an article by Robert Reinhold, in full here

More articles concerning the paleolithic and vegetarian diet:
http://www.earth360.com/diet_paleodiet_balzer.html
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/vegetarian.html
http://www.nutritionreporter.com/stone_age_diet.html
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Nothing is sacred.

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#26662 - 07/02/09 10:29 AM Re: Vegetarian, The Moral Argument. [Re: Atralux Lucis]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Early man survived because he moved past eating only plants. It was the advancements made in food gathering, the main one being hunting, that helped him survive - History 101: Ancient Civilization

At one point in time humans were able to eat raw meats. I believe that is what the appendix was for. Man has since evolved from the need to eat raw meat because we know how to cook it.

You arguments just get worse and you continue to dodge questions. Quit while you are only 500 miles behind.

Nem: Nice job with the methane synopsis. Too bad you had to be the one to post it. I guess you pretty much proved my theory that AL here was just regurgitating info he had picked up from someone else and had no real understanding about for himself.
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No gods. No masters.

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#26664 - 07/02/09 10:59 AM Re: Vegetarian, The Moral Argument. [Re: Atralux Lucis]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
 Originally Posted By: Atralux Lucis
Oh and about life, id say an animal is more innocent than a human and I would sooner slaughter a person and eat them than an animal,
Animals fueled by pure instinct and have no desire to cause suffering or what-not on someone else, nor are they judgemental.
I dont hold 'life' to be this highest thing where we dont kill anything but I dont agree with killing innocent beings. Humans are inherently not innocent


Now, before I read on, (So I've yet to read any responses to Atralux from any one else), I just wanted to mention that although I can see your reasoning eating human flesh is REALLY foolish. Human flesh, particularly muscle tissue contains a specific prion protein which causes the brain disorder prions disease. It is not curable currently and is a form of severe dementia, however it's incubation time is often as long as 7-10 years. Eating human flesh therefore, it really very stupid. Once you'd likely be OK but regularly you'll probably get prions disease.
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#26670 - 07/02/09 01:20 PM Re: Vegetarian, The Moral Argument. [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3119
 Quote:
Just one point: So because we dont eat meat we are now immediatly prey for other animals. Well just stupid. As I recall if a lion came at me I dont think eating a cow will save me which Is the belief you all seem to support.

Read a bit closer, it counts for ALL humans..
Prey remains prey, the lion doesn't think of "hey that's the top predator in earth's history, I'm not going to kill it".. It only sees "food" and goes for the kill.

 Quote:
Also we dont need to keep populations in check ourselves. I thought there was a food chain you mentioned where some other animal will eat the lower one. If we arent eating other animals something else will replace our position obviously. The idea of over population is garbage. There are other predators to keep the whole system in check. As we all know humans do more harm to animal populations than good anyways as we are killing off important animal groups to the ecosystem (eg sharks and whales) and then other groups maybe not so important.

Every specie is unimportant. Natural thinking implies not giving a fuck if the specie vanishes as long as there are other sources to eat. And still you dodged the question: give me an important animal on earth which can't be replaced by others...

 Quote:

And then on the point of superiority. So because we build roads, have what we call intelligence, conquer the world in our eyes and so we are superior. Well I dont think ive seen an animal suffering from moral dilemma.

Moral dillema.. superiority.. You should get things straight..
It's not because there is such a thing as moral dilemma (which actually came to life by certain nutjobs who said we should feel guilty about natural feelings) that we aren't superior.

 Quote:

I think really humanity is just too lazy to stop eating meat. We cause suffering and death to animals soley because we like to eat them which seems a pretty poor excuse. Murder is considered bad, but then when we eat the victim its seen as terrible, disgusting and what-not. Why is this so? just another contradiction in this argument of whether eating meat is bad. Eating animals is fine but eating humans rather than wasting their corpses is bad.

Eating humans if different from eating animals. In what way? If an animal eats someone of his "family" chances are great you'll get strange diseases. (Little help needed, know dutch names but not the English ones..).
As others said, learn to think for a change and don't act like a parrot. You are talking to an academic here, the general "intelligent looking bullshit" for the average man in the street doesn't work with me...



Edited by Dimitri (07/02/09 01:22 PM)
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#26685 - 07/02/09 05:26 PM Re: Vegetarian, The Moral Argument. [Re: Dimitri]
god.over.djinn Offline
pledge


Registered: 06/23/09
Posts: 75
Loc: Melbourne
I know many vegetarians. I have trouble taking them seriously. I regard the practice as contemptuous. It reminds me of certain other practices that involve fooling oneself and looking down one's nose at others, such as having "faith" in some collective imaginary friend (not mentioning any names, God).

Everything dies. Pain is good. The human animal evolved to flourish on as-big-and-juicy-as-possible flame-grilled steaks or dried strips of jerky freshly cut and lovingly prepared from any cow, horse, bison, spider, kangaroo, frog, fish, elephant, lizard, whale, sheep, dog, deer, goat, lion, bird, bear, leopard, human, snake, or grub that happens to be lying around not protecting its own arse. Deal with it already!
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SATAN, a recursive acronym invented by GOD: "SATAN: Advocating The Adversarial Nihilist"

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#26694 - 07/02/09 09:04 PM Re: Vegetarian, The Moral Argument. [Re: god.over.djinn]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
I wont bother with our point at the moment (i dont think we shall agree) but I'll put something else out there (that doesnt require any actual evidence in it)

We would agree with eating meat as a natural part of the food chain. Now I find, just in my opinion, that the fashion in which we eat it to be unnatural. I dont have a philosophical issue with people that go out or have or would go out and kill an animal for food (i dont agree though) I do have a very big problem with people that profess love of animals, or simply wouldnt go out and slaughter an animal for food. Its a big contradiction. They wouldnt go and kill an animal therefore its unnatural that they would eat it.

Im just asking opinions on what people think about people that eat meat for convenience because its killed for them when they personally would not kill an animal. Its not an issue of how we get it but more of the actual nature that a person would kill for the food given the chance.

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#26721 - 07/03/09 01:33 AM Re: Vegetarian, The Moral Argument. [Re: Atralux Lucis]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
Big Slick
active member


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
Convenience and a lack of resources and knowledge. I grew up in Northern Idaho, where the deer are nothing more than overgrown rodents. We used to open our kitchen window during deer hunting season and stick our rifle out and shoot one. Perfectly legal and acceptable.

The problem lies in the ubanization of America. I realize you are in Australia, things might be different there. It would be impracticle for me to obtain a license, spend hours in a forest hunting, drag my kill home, and dress it out. Not to mention, I have no where to dress it out. My yard is about 3 blades of grass and I have no garage.

Too many people have grown up in the cities and suburbs where hunting isn't an option. So they wouldn't even know where to begin. Should they even attempt it, they wouldn't have a clue how to dress the animal properly. Hunting, killing, and butchering an animal has been removed from our culture. It's far easier, and in some cases cheaper, to just go to the store and pick up a pound or two of meat.

I love animals. I have had cats as companions since I was in diapers. My mom has fostered and cared for wild and domestic animals. I asked everyone in my family that they donote to the ASPCA instead of sending a gift to me for Christmas. That does not mean we aren't capable of killing and eating a deer, bear, grouse, chicken or any other animal you care to mention.
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#26722 - 07/03/09 01:37 AM Re: Vegetarian, The Moral Argument. [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Most people would kill and animal if the option was to do that or starve. Some people enjoy hunting as well, and like to stock their freezers with freshly killed deer meat.

Nem already went over the aspects of how we eat and digest food, etc. She did a really good job, better at explaining it than I could. Maybe you should reread her words.

I love animals, but I love to eat them too.
I have 4 cats, if shit goes to hell, I have a tasty receipe for cat somewhere in my apartment.

I personally don't care what people eat. You can be a meat eater or vegetarian. I do care when its thrown in my face, and people try to use guilt on me about it. On that note, if you have friends who do that to you, get new friends.

Eating meat is a personal choice, and I like mine bar-b-qued.

Morgan
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Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#26726 - 07/03/09 02:27 AM Re: Vegetarian, The Moral Argument. [Re: Morgan]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
Thanks fakeprophet, that was rather insightful, and I hadnt thought that way.

I personally just cant understand the liking and then the eating of animals. Its like me saying I like people and I also like eating them (but we went through that briefly) and then that wouldnt be accepteable to people.

Im all pooped out for this discussion now, I think we have collectively overkilled it. Thanks to everyone for giving me new ideas of the other sides of the argument.

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#26791 - 07/04/09 11:09 AM Re: Vegetarian, The Moral Argument. [Re: Atralux Lucis]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
I have started and deleted a bunch of points opinions and comments to this thread. I spoke to Atralux Lucis in chat so.

So I'm just going to say.

http://www.beyondveg.com/

When I was younger, we raised sheep and then killed and ate them on our farm. I've killed a kangaroo with a rock because it was strangling my pet dog.

Alot of really good points made by the meat eaters side, not too many on any other to me. Guess that meat really does help the brain function. Especially when you are a child and growing.

The ones with the best moral argument food wise is the Freegans.

But who wants to dig through bins everyday to eat? I'd rather earn my way of life and eat meat.

We're not all the same, what works for me won't for you. Who cares what you eat?

The environment issues are now taught heavily in Australian Public school system. Recycle, re-use and regurgitate.

Boy that's a bit disjointed but this whole thread has been to me to an extent and one that I've had the argument about before....

TC, I agree with Nems original answer about not knowing what you would do in situations until you get there.

Maybe everything we do in life is driven by two things. Pleasure and pain. Then you die.

ZephyrGirl
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#27636 - 07/28/09 04:49 PM Re: Vegetarian, The Moral Argument. [Re: Nemesis]
Jesse Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/22/09
Posts: 9
Good God, vegetarians are annoying but there is nothing more annoying than a vegan. Trust me, one lives upstairs from me and thinks just because she waltzes into a new apartment she thinks she can change everyone's life style. My dad told her off BIG when she complained about him cooking meat outside on the grill, and damn skippy he should all day any day.

This concept of vegetarian/veganism makes some of the most self-rightous snooty and arrogant people ever. All because they stopped eating meat they want the biggest God damn cookie in the world. It's a life style only another veg-tard could put up with.

I strictly stand by the "Do what thou wilt" part of Satanism, and by the power invested in me as my own God I'm going to enjoy meat as I please. So I raise my middle finger firmly high and a nice FUCK YOU to anyone who thinks they can tell me otherwise.

There's my rant \:\)


Edited by Jesse (07/28/09 04:50 PM)

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#27777 - 08/01/09 07:15 AM Re: Vegetarian, The Moral Argument. [Re: Jesse]
coelentrate Offline
member


Registered: 07/07/08
Posts: 164
Loc: Dundee, Scotland
I'm a vegetarian and I want to explain myself. I chose not to eat meat for three reasons

-self preservation, rather, preservation of my descendants. I feel that animal farming is wasteful. It's more efficient to eat what cows eat, rather than eat cows. One person, especially an American, doing away with meat for a lifetime makes a difference.

-I got tired of meat. My father cooked meat by boiling it gray with no seasoning, and served it for every meal. Now I indulge in fine cookery. My vegetarian dishes are infinitely more flavourful than my dad's meaty ones.

-I like animals. They're better than a lot of people.

I take animal life on a case-by-case basis. I don't eat animals, but I do animal research. I will eat meat if it's an inconvenience not to. Traveling in rural France is difficult as a vegetarian. Most of the times I've eaten meat recently have been when someone I wanted to impress would have thought less of me for refusing their offered meal. So there are a lot of exceptions to my vegetarianism, but they are very rare. I find that it's these few exceptions, these trickier scenarios that people argue about in real life and get needlessly hung up about.

I never tell anyone else what to eat. And I take offense at people telling me that I need to eat meat. Some people automatically assume that I'm judging them based on their eating habits, that I think they shouldn't eat meat. They say stuff like "what, you think you're better than me? You think you can tell me what to do?". That annoys me. Sometimes it annoys me enough that I'll play the part to get those people to fuck off.

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