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#30617 - 10/19/09 07:42 AM Re: Vegetarian, The Moral Argument. [Re: Phenex]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
In your first post, you stated that the reason you're a vegetarian was because of how livestock are treated on commercial farms. When I provided information leading to farmers to treat animals in a humane manner, you backpedal and state that you'd still be a vegetarian anyway.

So, what's the real reason you're a vegetarian? If it's because you don't like the idea of animals being killed, I can accept that, but just be up front about it. No need to beat around the bush. Most of us are animal lovers on here and could sympathize. However, most of us could also sympathize with a juicy 10oz. filet mignon wrapped in bacon and topped with Bearnaise sauce too ;\)

I have yet to meet a vegetarian or vegan that is healthy and vital. Oh, I'm sure there are plenty of them out there, ones who've been to a dietitian and mapped out what their nutritional requirements are (Christian Bale is a vegetarian, at least that's what he says). But all the ones I've met have been semi-sickly individuals who have weakened immune systems from not eating properly. Everyone needs some animal protein, and I'm not sure how far eggs would go as a substitute for a juicy steak or grilled and seasoned filet of salmon once or twice a week. The vegans are the worst: Nothing from an animal whatsoever, not eggs, milk, cheese, etc. Those people look godawful.

Miss May, that's an interesting bit of information you provided, concerning the proper diet for your blood type. I'm reading up on it now. That might explain why I always feel deprived when I try to go vegetarian (it has happened on occasion!).

Eating Right For Your Blood Type
_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

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#30634 - 10/19/09 02:41 PM Re: Vegetarian, The Moral Argument. [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Phenex Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/13/09
Posts: 11
I suppose my reasons would be both the cruel treatment and the health benefits that I, myself, have recieved. I am rather torn in the killing of animals at all, but it is also a system that has been a part of society since the dawn of time, and, in the case of deer, prevents overpopulation and starvation. I started out as a vegetarian because of the treatment of the animals. I was overweight, but in the first week I lost about ten pounds and felt much more clear of mind. Perhaps this was because I did not have the slaughter on my conscience, but there are also many great minds who would agree with this, such as Albert Einstein and Sir Isaac Newton--both of which were vegetarian.
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"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds." -Einstein

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#30696 - 10/23/09 04:29 AM Re: Vegetarian, The Moral Argument. [Re: Nemesis]
ceruleansteel Offline
active member


Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
Fuck that. Everything on that list of no-nos was something that I love.

I eat loads of meat, loads of seasonings and spices, and a few vegetables (usually any color but white or yellow). I add to the mix a juice of some sort every morning (orange, apple, cranberry, or V8). I don't eat "box meals" or TV dinners or canned meals, I cook from scratch. I love pasta, but I only eat it a couple of times per month. I don't drink bourbon any more (read: right now) so I have no caffiene in my life at all. I love fresh garlic and add it to everything I can.

I don't buy into the so-called health benefits of eating a certain way. I have a nice, juicy steak about two or three times a week and I eat bacon and eggs like a maniac. My cholesterol is perfect, I never get sick, and I can go from zero to sixty in the time it takes my two feet to hit the floor each morning, even on just a couple of hours of sleep. This annoys my Darling Man to no end.

Let 'em have their rabbit food. That's just more tasty murder for me.

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#30697 - 10/23/09 04:56 AM Re: Vegetarian, The Moral Argument. [Re: ceruleansteel]
godam666 Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/15/09
Posts: 23
Loc: indiana
why is it that people come up with a way to be different. Then they try and make as many people as they can like them by attempting to make them feel bad for doing something they like to do. My question is how much better would the world be if we all instead of trying to make everyone like this, or that and just be our self's and just that. Who says because we are different we cannot get along and live in the same world. I like being different I don't know about you.
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#30703 - 10/23/09 09:25 AM Re: Vegetarian, The Moral Argument. [Re: godam666]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: godam666
why is it that people come up with a way to be different. Then they try and make as many people as they can like them by attempting to make them feel bad for doing something they like to do.


The simple answer is that many people need to feel that unless they convince someone -- ANYONE -- of the value of a system or and idea that has somehow captured their imagination, it's a failed exercise. You can see this in MOST religious movements through their constant proselytization and in the "new and improved" rehashes of products, movies, music and other consumables. YOU TOO must enjoy this, or something is wrong with YOU.

It's been going on since Og found out that he could convince Bog to cook his meat.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#31763 - 11/16/09 06:34 AM Re: Vegetarian, The Moral Argument. [Re: TV is God]
Babylonian Dream Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/07/09
Posts: 43
Loc: Upstate New York
Don't like the way animals are treated? Either deal with it, protest, or find a way to outcompete them posting a "we treat animals ethically" banner and hope it boosts the sail of your product. Not enough people are willing to go along for the vegetarian idea to spread.

As for the not wanting to take a life or wanting a life to be taken, I agree, I don't like the idea of killing anything for food either, but it's a "necessary evil" so to speak. And if you didn't want to kill anything, or let anything be killed for you to eat, then you'd starve.

If we limit what we kill to plants, one may ask another moral arguement, is it better to take one life or another?

I personally am going to eat both. I just can't go without my bacon and eggs for breakfast alongside toast and other good stuff.

There are other reasons people are vegetarian as well I am sure. I don't have a problem with what other people choose to or not to eat, it leaves more meat for me so what do I care?

I think that it's immoral to take a life, but it is even more so immoral to me to not fulfill your life's purpose (to eat, mate and survive). That being said, it cancels out any moral obligation not to kill the plant or animal. It boils down to whether or not you see it as moral or immoral to kill an animal, or what is more important to you, survival or the moral of "do not kill".
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"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself" Sagan

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#31768 - 11/16/09 02:08 PM Re: Vegetarian, The Moral Argument. [Re: Babylonian Dream]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2599
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
There are two issues here: (1) What should you eat for maximum health, strength, & life? (2) Is it unjustifiably cruel to kill animals, even if it is to eat them?

Concerning the former, spend $10 on this DVD. While you're at it, pick up a copy of this book. Just go ahead and do it; you can argue with [or thank] me later.

Concerning the latter, I am generally opposed to hurting any living being which isn't hurting/trying to hurt me. One either considers "life" as something metaphysical/sublime/sacred or one doesn't. If so, then it is just as blasphemous to kill a cow or a pig as to kill another [unthreatening] human being. Go here, scroll down to

030701 A Vision of Hell: The Unspeakable Torment of Other Species, Part 1
- and -
030708 A Vision of Hell: The Unspeakable Torment of Other Species, Part 2
and download/play.

If not, then theoretically you should be as much in favor of Soylent Green as a Big Mac.

It is perhaps worth noting that we are being eaten by animals not just when we die (maggots, et al.) but while we're alive (fleas, mosquitoes, ticks, lice ... The next time you visit your dentist, ask him to take a scrape from the inside of your mouth and show it to you under the microscope; you'll see more Lovecraftian monsters living contentedly in/on you than you ever wanted to know about). Quoth archy the cockroach in Don Marquis' archy and mehitabel:

"insects have
their own point
of view about
civilization a man
thinks he amounts
to a great deal
but to a
flea or a
mosquito a
human being is
merely something
good to eat"
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Michael A. Aquino

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#31769 - 11/16/09 02:25 PM Re: Vegetarian, The Moral Argument. [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
TheInsane Offline
member


Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
I am not against eating meat. I do it most days in fact. I do not like how man produces their food though. I guess I would prefer the idyllic way of people having their own animals and kill them etc instead of having these industries that are just producing for profit and dont care about the animals lives (sorry I dont mean to turn this into another debate on capitalism ;\) ). However I do buy the products I have to admit.

Im not sure of the right word but I only buy fresh food. I never buy these "already made, microwave 3 minutes" and almost never buy fast food.

Since I started actually cooking my food myself I have not only slimmed down (not that I was big to begin with though) but I also feel better and it is indeed cheaper to do it this way. Although it does require some more time for cooking.

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#31770 - 11/16/09 02:36 PM Re: Vegetarian, The Moral Argument. [Re: Babylonian Dream]
TV is God Moderator Offline
Moderator
member


Registered: 08/11/08
Posts: 273
Loc: The Cornhole
There's a big difference between life and conscious life. When a vegetarian says "taking a life" you're meant to assume they mean "taking a conscious life."

And it's a bit silly to argue it's a denial of self fulfillment. If someone is pressured to be a vegetarian by the people around them then that would be a denial of self fulfillment but I would guess that's a very rare thing to happen. Some people are bothered by the idea of eating the flesh of animals and the torturous process of getting them that flesh. It is their self fulfillment to stop eating animals.

Babylonian Dream, you speak of vegetarianism as if it's a movement that's trying to convert people and take down the meat industry. There is a movement of vegetarians that will tell you you're wrong for eating meat, this is not the whole of vegetarians.

Vegetarianism itself is nothing but a preference of diet. It is not living against meat, it is living without meat. The word vegetarian does not mean you're a militant anti-meat-industry idiots that's trying to tell people they're wrong for eating meat. It baffles me why people think that these people are accurate representatives of vegetarians.

I'm all for kicking dirt on these self-righteous shallow anti-meat hypocrites. I'm all for bringing down any rabble rousing idiotic group of the like but understand that the dietary choice of vegetarianism and the idiocy are not fused at the hip.
I would guess there's probably more vegetarians eating what they want and minding their own business than marching naked in peta protests.

If you saw a militant satanist movement that was dressing up as devils and protesting in church parking lots you'd want nothing to do with them. However this would be what's on the news and what people see. Everyone would assume that being a satanist is hand in hand with the social masturbaters. You see what I'm getting at?

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#31775 - 11/16/09 04:00 PM Re: Vegetarian, The Moral Argument. [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel
It's convenient, it feels good and it beats the alternative. In short, because I want to.


And that right there is really the end-all of it. You can't apply morality to Vegetarian Vs. Omnivore Vs. Carnivore. Ok, you can, but you just look silly doing it. If you want to apply your own "morality" when deciding what you should eat - fine - but you can't exactly expect to hold others to that same line of thinking.

I mean, why even care what other people eat? How much does it hurt you when I eat a burger? I'll tell you how much; about as much as it hurts me when you eat tofurkey.

Fuck the pigs, chickens, cows, fish and all the other tasty creatures out there. They taste good, I want to eat them, so I do. The End.
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No gods. No masters.

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#31776 - 11/16/09 04:05 PM Re: Vegetarian, The Moral Argument. [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
CJB Offline
member


Registered: 10/12/09
Posts: 125
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA
I can't believe I just spent 20 minutes of my life reading through this thread...oh well.

So...for starters, I apparently don't eat right for my blood type. At all. In any way shape or form. How is an Irish type A suppose to survive, anyway? No beef,potatoes, cabbage, beer, or liquor? There's something wrong with that list...

Second...the argument that the industrial complex of slaughterhouses, etc...even saying they're not doing it for a profit, being able to evolve beyond being hunter-gatherers is what enables us to have the civilization that we do. If you argue that specilization of jobs is a bad thing, than you're not just attacking capitalism, you're attacking any type of civilization. The number of people that would have to be hunter/gatherers (even ancient farming is just another food industry) to sustain the population would be horrific, not to mention the fact that hunting/gathering wouldn't be sufficient to feed everyone. If you're thinking "Good! Humanity is overpopulated, anyway!" then just think that before our near extinction, we're going to take all the cute fluffy bunnies with us.

If you're fine with farming for food, but not growing livestock for food, it seems a bit of a double standard to me.

Also...humans are animals. Yes, we're different from every other animal in some key aspects, but animals we are. Why, then, is it bad to eat other animals? If you're coming from the moral aspect of not killing animals because it's taking a life...than are lions, tigers, and bears (oh my!) responsible for murder? Are they immoral? There's a lot more that could be said on that subject, but I doubt anyone's interested in it anyway, and it is about time to cook dinner...

If you argue that we're higher than animals, than why is it wrong to take an animals life? We're higher than them, their lives don't matter much compared to our whims.

I've known a few veggies/vegans. Only one was really healthy (except that he was a bit chubby, but that was likely from the beer diet, not the veggie diet), and he did pay a lot of attention to his diet, and what he needed. He also wasn't a self-righteous ass, and went out with us omnivores to eat quite a bit. He would sit and stare at us eating our meat filled dishes while he ate his veggie dish, and aside from fun arguments (usually initiated by someone else asking him why he was vegan), he didn't talk about it.

Some friends and I did go with him once to this vegan Chinese place in NYC, and I have to admit: prepared right, vegan food can be quite tasty. I wouldn't go vegan, because I like steak way too much, but there are some exceptionally exquisite vegan dishes to be had.

(Now, of course, I have that Tool song stuck in my head...life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life...)
_________________________
~~CJ
"To say 'I love you' one must know first how to say the 'I.'"
-Ayn Rand

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#31777 - 11/16/09 04:18 PM Re: Vegetarian, The Moral Argument. [Re: CJB]
TV is God Moderator Offline
Moderator
member


Registered: 08/11/08
Posts: 273
Loc: The Cornhole
I don't think I've tried anything vegan but you'd be surprised how good a lot of vegetarian food is. People tend not to give a food a chance because it's labeled vegetarian (I am personally guilty of not giving anything with the word "diet" a chance) but there are some really excellent vegetarian dishes out there. I went to a restaurant that served a black bean burger filled with peppers and I'd have to say it's one of the best burgers I've ever had.

Not to say there isn't a lot of badly flavored lumps of soy meant to look like meat. The boca meatless burgers and breakfast sausages are surprisingly good. I have several non-vegetarian friends that buy the boca chicken nuggets because they prefer them to the real thing.

As a side note never ask a vegetarian "Would you eat it if there was a gun to your head?". You know the answer is yes and they're all really really sick of everyone they meet asking them.


Edited by TV is God (11/16/09 04:24 PM)

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#31781 - 11/16/09 04:54 PM Re: Vegetarian, The Moral Argument. [Re: TV is God]
Room 101 Offline
member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 262
Loc: Scotland
Wow. This topic has seen allot of decent chat, but hey I’m going to jumping and have my say regardless.

I am an omnivore. I eat what I want to, and do so guilt free. I enjoy a nice steak and I’m also partial to spinach linguini.

I agree that it’s a valid point to contemplate the suffering of animals and question my right as person to deprive it of life rather than eat a carrot, something that would sustain me equally well. But I don’t let that ruin my steak.

I agree that there is an environmental sustainability issue when it comes to meats production. But I don’t let it hinder the enjoyment of my steak.

I agree that in the long run my diet of rare red meat may lead to a situation in which I clasp at my flabby chest with my sweaty sausage link hands and lament all those pretty women I never convinced to show me their breasts. But I don’t, EVER, let that shit on my steak.

Seeing a pattern here? (Other than my borderline infatuation with stake). While I acknowledge that there are those who are against meat, and I respect their right to be so, I don’t for one second consider myself in the wrong.

It’s up to YOU. If you want it, eat it. If not then don’t, but no person has the right to dictate that I shouldn’t.

Oh, and just to throw a complete spanner in the works, has anyone thought of the fourth option? (The first, second and third being Carnivore, Herbivore and Omnivore respectively).

Meat that was never born?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4148164.stm

I like the term “Synthasore”.


Edited by Room 101 (11/16/09 04:57 PM)
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"Nothing is your own except the few cubic centimeters inside your skull." - George Orwell (1984)

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#31782 - 11/16/09 05:10 PM Re: Vegetarian, The Moral Argument. [Re: Room 101]
TV is God Moderator Offline
Moderator
member


Registered: 08/11/08
Posts: 273
Loc: The Cornhole
I am a meat eater but if the synthasore option was cheap and easily available I would go for it. Not as a strict rule but when given the option I'd go for it.
And really if the technology is perfected it could (if they wanted to) be sold for next to nothing and make the giant factory farms obsolete. But I really doubt the fickle public will accept something like this as a major part of the food market, at least not in America anyway.

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#31784 - 11/16/09 06:09 PM Re: Vegetarian, The Moral Argument. [Re: TV is God]
Room 101 Offline
member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 262
Loc: Scotland
I wouldn’t have a problem eating meat that had been grown instead of conceived, as long as it had been tested as safe. I think it’s the solution to a great many problems regarding so the so called “morality of meat” issue.

Whether or not the “fickle” public embrace’s or even condones this method of food production is yet to be seen. The article is from 2005, and this was the last time I heard about it. But that aside it’s an interesting subject, more than as a solution, but in the problems it in its own right is likely to generate.

I suppose the deviant little boy in me can’t wait to poke fun at the dilemma vegetarians might one day be faced with. “Guilt free meat” will not only be ecological sound in that it does not require vast tracts of rainforest to be bull dozed in order to feed, it will also have never been truly “alive” (although that is also a matter of debate) and as such no animal will ever be harmed in its production.

Alas, there will still be those that feel this is still a form of animal manipulation suited for human interests, and worst still, there will be the “this is unnatural” squad. No doubt backed by some bible toting "Human Investor” that sees it as Gods will that nature should not be bastardised with science in this manner. The very same man no doubt taking his high blood pressure medication and enjoying a Rieces pieces (both of which now contain GM crop constituent components) moments after talking to room full of semi comatose “well doers”.

Only time will tell.
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