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#26700 - 07/02/09 10:01 PM Satanic Ritual Magic- Psychological?
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
LaVey dubbs the ritual chamber as a psychological decompression chamber. So he implies that its really an emotional outlet, psychodrama etc. (Higher Black Magic)
So is it up to the individual what they believe is real magick that affects the world or simply put down to psychological.

Just like the Atheism would we not believe in the power of witchcraft, voodoo and all that stuff. I find that LaVey writes in a manner that I find difficult to pick up which side he is on. He does imply that its psychological but also alot of his rituals in The Satanic Rituals can be pretty full-on and sometimes sound theistic which Im aware that enhances the emotional content of the Ritual but does any of it really have magickal essence in it.

(Im sorry, i think i put forward more than one question there but I hope you get the gist of the topic im bringing up)

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#26711 - 07/03/09 12:02 AM Re: Satanic Ritual Magic- Psychological? [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Jester Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 62
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
You might get different answers from different people in regards to your questions. Personally, It's all psychodrama used to inflate ones will and ego. Personally, instead of spending a considerable amount of time with psychodrama and all that foreplay I just go out and do. If I want to achieve something I just go out and do. I can appreciate the use of said psychodrama but it doesn't really work for me. I do meditate and visualize how I will achieve something that I want. Formulate a plan you could say. I just prefer to go out and do it. A man of action you could say.
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"...And I thought my jokes were bad."

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#26729 - 07/03/09 03:00 AM Re: Satanic Ritual Magic- Psychological? [Re: Jester]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1646
Loc: Orlando, FL
I have a certain fondness- a fetish even- for ritual. I wouldn't say that ritual makes me significantly more "capable" of real-world action, but it certainly makes me feel more confident about it.

But the primary reason why I practice satanic ritual is not practical- it's more artistic and emotional. Magic and ritual are a sort of drug for me- and I'm an enthusiastic recreational user.

From the contents of the Satanic Bible, I don't think that LaVey was the hardline materialist that the current CoS makes him out to be. It was the 60s after all, and he does mention things like "life energy" and "mind force" and some other manifestations of magical thinking that were inherent to magic and occultism at the time. (ie, the idea that a destruction ritual could possibly bring about the literal death of an enemy) I don't buy into that sort of thing, nor is it a part of my own practice....

My own "invocations" can get borderline-theistic at times, but my primary focus is the elevation of the self, and exaltation of Satanic qualities which are best represented as a "godform", so to speak.
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#26733 - 07/03/09 03:24 AM Re: Satanic Ritual Magic- Psychological? [Re: The Zebu]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
I think mind force and life energy are just normal terms. Like will= mind force and life energy is more or less will as well.

See though, thats what gets me. He does make it really, like, literal magic but then on the same coin he says its psychological, so he leans boths ways and leads to confusion. But I guess he leaves it to the individual opinion.

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#26735 - 07/03/09 03:42 AM Re: Satanic Ritual Magic- Psychological? [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Jester Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 62
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
When it comes to "magick" you should look at the works of Eliphas Lévi and Austin Osman Spare. They are very interesting. Spare's books might be a challenge to find, luckily there is the internet. I would recommend reading about them and what they thought. Not trying to overload with information, but it's good to take a look at what else is out there as well.
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"...And I thought my jokes were bad."

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#26737 - 07/03/09 03:49 AM Re: Satanic Ritual Magic- Psychological? [Re: Jester]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
Yeh, I will probably read up those but I'm still curious about LaVey's actual idea of magick, because its not as direct in the sense it being real or not in a supernatural sense.
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#26747 - 07/03/09 07:22 AM Re: Satanic Ritual Magic- Psychological? [Re: Atralux Lucis]
god.over.djinn Offline
pledge


Registered: 06/23/09
Posts: 75
Loc: Melbourne
Hi Atralux Lucis,

I am under the impression from the wording of your queries that you haven't done any magic yourself before. If this is the case, but you really are curious, then there is only one person on this forum who can give you the answer.

You can only find out by doing. Just try it out as an experiment. It doesn't even have to be some badass Satanic ritual, if that is a bit intimidating. Just do an LBRP or a GPR or a laughter banishing. Do it every day without fail, because being able to keep it up is part of the experiment.

G.O.D.
_________________________
SATAN, a recursive acronym invented by GOD: "SATAN: Advocating The Adversarial Nihilist"

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#26750 - 07/03/09 08:06 AM Re: Satanic Ritual Magic- Psychological? [Re: god.over.djinn]
Jester Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 62
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I always like the term decompression chamber. For me, my bedroom is my decompression chamber. Maybe a variation on the way LaVey describes one. My room is my sanctuary, my place to escape. I decorated with various objects, pictures, etc. When I go into my room I shut the door and ignore everything beyond the door. I sometimes like to put on music or a weird movie, let it play and fade away or meditate or read or whatever I feel like doing. That is my decompression chamber. When I am in it, I feel safe, I feel alone, I feel free. That is my version of a decompression chamber. A place constructed by my design, a place for me, by me.

A little off topic since this thread is about Ritual Magic, by my escapes are magical in their own right.
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"...And I thought my jokes were bad."

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#26776 - 07/03/09 11:49 PM Re: Satanic Ritual Magic- Psychological? [Re: Jester]
Atralux Lucis Offline
pledge


Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
I attempted to construct a theory on how the actual magick might work, based on will.

If (if) reality is a manifestation of countless wills:
Like when you buy something and you suddenly start seeing it everywhere, or you have a problem and you start finding conversations or reading material starts being relevant to that. (these examples times by 6 billion to create or motivate reality)

So perhaps if ones will can actual interact with the world, then the ritual magic is a ordered and emotionally empowering way of using your will to manifest reality, to an extent, to your desire.

Sounds fairly out there, but would that be one possibility on how the magick could work (even if its still down to personal belief) just thought Id put my idea out there for people to comment.


Edited by Atralux Lucis (07/03/09 11:51 PM)

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#29862 - 09/20/09 05:09 AM Re: Satanic Ritual Magic- Psychological? [Re: Atralux Lucis]
FlameReborn Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 36
Loc: SPFLD,OH,USA
I must agree with Lucius on this, I am somewhat new to this. Learning that LaVey understood magick and termed it differently than what the current CoS terms it as.

I believe that as a Satanists I am more than just an "Atheist playing dress up." (I may have mention this in a previous thread.) My belief is that just because Will or Force can be bent through Magic that it's not necessarily supernatural. Other religions (including Wicca) have tried to equate Magic to gods or supernatural.

As a Satanist I question this, Magic doesn't have to function on one plane only, gods. Magic is a tool. We don't use hammers, because of the people that made them. We use them to accomplish a task, that's what magic is. It's a product of us for us, not on the behalf of the supernatural.

Magic to me can't be completely explainable, but I guess that part of my philosophy as an Atheist. As for death and the Forces of Nature I don't always know.


Edited by FlameReborn (09/20/09 05:15 AM)
Edit Reason: adding

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#29872 - 09/20/09 01:39 PM Re: Satanic Ritual Magic- Psychological? [Re: FlameReborn]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2576
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: FlameReborn
I must agree with Lucius on this, I am somewhat new to this. Learning that LaVey understood magick and termed it differently than what the current CoS terms it as.

I believe that as a Satanists I am more than just an "Atheist playing dress up." (I may have mention this in a previous thread.) My belief is that just because Will or Force can be bent through Magic that it's not necessarily supernatural. Other religions (including Wicca) have tried to equate Magic to gods or supernatural.

As a Satanist I question this, Magic doesn't have to function on one plane only, gods. Magic is a tool. We don't use hammers, because of the people that made them. We use them to accomplish a task, that's what magic is. It's a product of us for us, not on the behalf of the supernatural.

Magic to me can't be completely explainable, but I guess that part of my philosophy as an Atheist. As for death and the Forces of Nature I don't always know.

Most generally Anton divided magic [he did not use Crowley's -ck spelling because he felt it parochialized the concept] into Lesser and Greater: the former referring to operations to influence people or events utilizing obscure or unrecognized techniques, and the latter for workings intended to evolve, strengthen, or focus one's own consciousness.

Much of the confusion about Anton's belief in Satan stems from others' ignorance or misunderstanding of these two types of magic. Making matters worse, they not infrequently overlap, for which the Temple of Set has used the term "Medial Black Magic" until we can come up with something more lyrical!

In Setian initiation we apprehend Set as the neter/Principle/Form of isolate consciousness of self, of which each individual ka/psyche/soul is a particularization or manifestation. You can see that this makes "objectification" or "distinction" of Set [or Satan in the days of the Church] a subtle and complex matter. Exactly where do you "stop" and the Prince of Darkness "begin" & vice-versa?

Anton expressed this very thoughtfully in a 1973 interview in John Fritscher's Popular Witchcraft:

 Originally Posted By: Anton LaVey
I don't feel that raising the devil in an anthropomorphic sense is quite as feasible as theologians or metaphysicians would like to think. I have felt His presence but only as an exteriorized extension of my own potential,as an alter-ego or evolved concept that I have been able to exteriorize. With a full awareness, I can communicate with this semblance, this creature, this demon, this personification that I see in the eyes of the symbol of Satan - the goat of Mendes - as I commune with it before the altar. None of these is anything more than a mirror image of that potential I perceive in myself. I have this awareness that the objectification is in accord with my own ego. I'm not deluding myself that I'm calling something that is disassociated from myself the godhead. Satan is ,therefore, an extension of one's psyche or volitional essence, so that the extension can sometimes converse and give directions in a way that thinking of the self as a single unit cannot. In this way it does help to depict in an externalized way the Devil per se. The purpose is to have something of an idolatrous, objective nature to commune with. However, man has connection, contact, control. This notion of an exteriorized God-Satan is not new.

Also in 1973 Anton commented in an interview for the phonograph album The Occult Explosion:

 Originally Posted By: Anton LaVey
To us “Satan” is a symbol rather than an anthropomorphic being, although many members of the Church of Satan who are mystically inclined prefer to think of Satan in a very real, anthropomorphic way. Of course we do not discourage this, because we realize that it is very important to many individuals to ritualistically conceptualize a well-wrought picture of their mentor or tutelary divinity. Symbolically, however, Satan is the teacher: the informer of the whys and wherefores of the world. In answer to those who would label us “Devil worshippers” or be very quick to assume us to be Satan worshippers, I must say that Satan demands study, not worship.

We do not grovel; we do not get down on our knees, genuflect, and worship Satan. We do not plead, we do not implore that Satan give us what we wish. We feel that anyone who is going to be blessed by any god of his choice is going to have to show that god that he is capable of taking care of the blessings that are received.

The Church of Satan is an organization which is comprised of Satanists who, because of their abilities and lifestyles - and I must stress lifestyles - reflect a higher than average human potential. Through this avenue - the Church of Satan - the Satanist will become the prototype for a more rational, certainly a more finely tuned society.

The media have stressed our nude altars. The nude altar is an integral part of the Satanic service, and with good reason: The nude altar represents man’s fleshly heritage - the very Earth, the mother, the womb whence he came. And we feel that there’s nothing “bawdy”, there’s nothing “licentious”, there’s nothing “lewd” about the nude woman who’s employed for the altar. We also feel that there’s nothing wrong with bawdiness, with licentiousness, or with any type of sexual activity; but we feel that the ritual chamber is no place for it, either overtly or covertly. And there’s no need to be surreptitious in our ritual insofar as sexual predilections are concerned.

For centuries both churchmen and laymen have been defining the Devil according to their needs, all the while playing the game of muzzling the enemy. They’ve been inventing the rules of how devils should behave, how Satanists should behave, how Devil-worshippers should act. And they have been in an authoritative position to do this, because naturally they are the men of God, the men of the church. Supposedly they are the men who have been doing battle with this Devil and have been absolving their parishioners of this Devil’s promptings. In this manner they have maintained a convenient means by which to esape the blame for their inadequacies or indiscretions.

“The Devil made me do it” has always been a stock alibi. Once it held, and held very firm. Now, fortunately - fortunately for us - it has become ludicrous to say, “The Devil made me do it.” Yet many, while laughing, still play the old game of self-deceit and blame the Devil in one way or another. So the old game is still going on. This is made amply clear in, of all places, the very world of the occult. “Witches”, who held the Devil’s name for centuries, now refute Satanism with a passion, employing it as the other side of the fence. All manner of occultists, from ESP researchers to faith healers, denounce Satanists as worthless, meaningless, dangerous, ad nauseam. Never is there to be found a positive adjective about Satanists. We Satanists smile at such transparencies - for they are transparent opinions; their motivations are most clear. It shows that even those who now claim emancipation from inquisitors need devils themselves, in order to make their art more palatable to others.

Ironically the masters of the world have always been Satanists. The masters of magic have always practiced Satanic magic - that is to say, magic without the trappings of self-deceit, for self-deceit is always an inhibiting factor in the ultimate success of a magical rite.

The great Devil’s advocates of the past - Friedrich Nietzsche, Mark Twain, Herbert Spencer, H.G. Wells, Shaw, Bierce - were all able to hold a looking-glass up to man. But man, momentarily viewing his self-deceit upon reading the works of these people, could quickly avert his gaze and find solace in his spurious rule-books. The time for an organization of devils had not yet come. Only a strong, organized movement could force the mirror of self-revealing before the world’s eyes and hold it there. And this is what we wish to do: hold that mirror up!

It has been said that the most powerful thing in the world is an idea whose time has come ’round. The idea that the “enemy” might conceivably have something worthwhile to say is now with us. In fact, is that demon within each of us really an enemy, as we have so long been taught? Or will it be recognized as the guiding spirit of enlightenment which it actually is? You must remember that the word Daimon does not imply “evil”, but simply a “guiding spirit”, a “motivating spirit”.

Man must quit kidding himself. Only when he emancipates himself from dubious interpretations of good and evil - when he can truly rise above good and evil, beyond good and evil, realizing that these terms are probably the most relative terms in his existence; when he can accept the long, obscene name of “Satan” [because that is a dirty word, “Satan” - the occult world seems to find it even more so]; when he can accept this word, this name into his vocabulary as a sound to be honored - then he will be free! Until then he will walk in fear of the very scapegoat he has created, and his potential guide will remain his nemesis.

Thus authentic Satanism is neither "mere worship of a scarecrow deity" [as in profane religions] on one extreme; nor is it self-deceiving Atheism in Halloween dress-up at the other. It is very much its own Grail Castle, and the same is true for the authentic operations of Black Magic which derive from this awareness.
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#29882 - 09/20/09 10:40 PM Re: Satanic Ritual Magic- Psychological? [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
MissKitty Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 10
Loc: UK
I agree with Mr. Aquino, that few really understand the concept of the two types of magic, as set out by Dr. LaVey. Those who do still have their own take on the matter.

Whether or not you believe in magic as pure psychology, or as something else, is very personal to the individual. Not everyone follows what Dr. LaVey has written, and you will find many different opinions on the matter.

For myself, I feel that the psychology behind it all is what really seals the deal. I also feel that, Greater Magic or Ritual needs to be “full-on” because it is something, which taps into your emotional self. If it did not then it would be as blasé as say, making a ham sandwich, and nothing would be gained from the process.
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The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

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#29897 - 09/21/09 04:07 PM Re: Satanic Ritual Magic- Psychological? [Re: MissKitty]
FlameReborn Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 36
Loc: SPFLD,OH,USA
So, obiouvsly the concept of magic in Satanism is up to personal interperetation (as stated in the STB) and it's not up to me to decided what your view of it is. I like this view of personal libery, it avoids glibly debating over dogmatic crap.

Thanks Aquaino.

-FlameReborn

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#29898 - 09/21/09 04:48 PM Re: Satanic Ritual Magic- Psychological? [Re: FlameReborn]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3895
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Well, No, flamereborn..Satanic Magic really isn't "up to personal interpretation". It is quite clearly defined in detail(both lesser and greater), for any to see, right there in The Satanic Bible. (STB?!?!?). Perhaps you should (re-?)read it.

In the future, you may want to edit your post's for grammar and spelling errors(not to mention content!). Presentation is everything here.

\:\)
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ADM
ideological vandal

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#29900 - 09/21/09 05:59 PM Re: Satanic Ritual Magic- Psychological? [Re: Dan_Dread]
MissKitty Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 10
Loc: UK
Something tells me, that my post did not help either. I thought that from Mr. Aquino's post, that it was pretty evident that there was no room for interpretation.
_________________________
The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

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