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#30113 - 09/27/09 04:46 PM Re: Satanic Ritual Magic- Psychological? [Re: FlameReborn]
Mercury_Templar Offline
93 93/93
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Registered: 09/16/07
Posts: 262
Loc: Cabarita, Vic, Australia
Yes, your acquaintance does not sound too au fait (lol). And yes, your assumption is correct – to a point. Crowley did not believe there was a difference in paths – for the outer/lower orders. As for the law/love thing – it is complicated, and if you were really interested, a simple forum search should turn up a previous explanation I posted.

Perhaps it was just an off-the-cuff remark, but I do not agree with your assertion that self-preservation may be a fundamental law of nature – consider suicide in all its forms (no, I don't mean 'go kill yourself'). It is more probable that a need for power/control is the primary law of nature – for it is with a loss of authority that animals (humans included) consider ending everything – sometimes not just their self.

M.'.T.'.
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#30115 - 09/27/09 04:58 PM Re: Satanic Ritual Magic- Psychological? [Re: Mercury_Templar]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3883
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:
It is more probable that a need for power/control is the primary law of nature – for it is with a loss of authority that animals (humans included) consider ending everything – sometimes not just their self.


I've yet to hear of the suicidal worker ant or drone bee. There are always alphas in mammalian groups, but the non-alphas still don't commit suicide. There is always a pecking order in every chain of power.

It seems to me that the thirst for power is a primarily human development, and not even universal to ALL humans.Many are content with their lot in life.

In what way would you consider the need for power as a law of nature, much less the 'primary' one?
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#30117 - 09/27/09 05:23 PM Re: Satanic Ritual Magic- Psychological? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
MT: Can you expound on what you mean? I may be missing your point.

I have to admit, the "law of nature" throws me off a bit. I could see it as a "subset imperative," as in those with the genetic predisposition to Alpha status might have an inborn imperative within that subset of the given species to gain power. Most notably it would be in the most aggressive of Alphas, but truly, when you consider any strata in a grouping that would form Alpha personalities, there will rise certain individuals who are "Alphas" within that strata.

"The best of the worst," for lack of a better term. Within the human condition, you may have a lowest class strata, and even here, there will be some who, while firmly entrenched in this strata, might be seen as "a cut above" all the others who populate the same strata. So here, I think that the subset imperative still applies, while as a "law of nature" would appear to indicate that all within a given subset should strive for power. We can pretty easily see that at least in the case of humans and other herd creatures, it's doesn't appear to be the case.
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#30118 - 09/27/09 05:37 PM Re: Satanic Ritual Magic- Psychological? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Caladrius Offline
member


Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 320
Loc: SoCal
I would agree with MT. IMO the "need for power" is a primary motivating force of our species. In what way? Perhaps the word "power" here should temporarily be put aside because it has certain associated concepts attached to it that may obscure the essence.

We could fragment the word/concept "power" to the concept of the human desire of Exertion, Assertion, Influence, of a human being; or any associated aspect of such human being such as his: Will, Desire, Opinions, Beliefs, Laws, Mind, Force, Body; upon "something."

In more simpler terms it could be understood as a desire or natural need to obtain dominion in some psychological and/or psychical sense over something via Exertion, Assertion, or Influence.

We see this act of the human animal exerting it's will on his own primal self and primal nature by first collecting together as tribes and using/exploiting natural resources to make villages. This would evolve into civilization: city-states and kingdoms or empires.

One can say that such power struggles of armies and nations, and capitalist tycoons and such may be a reality to SOME people, but surely not to ALL. But if we look on an individuated level... even here in this forum, we see this same natural human need to exert, assert, influence with some aspect of ourselves on others:

In the form of users and posters with egos going into threads attempting to Exert, Assert, Influence others with their own fabricated opinions disguised as "debating" and so forth. As if their/our opinions, convictions, ideas, ways, is better or more "righter" than others.

This natural and primary need for power has shaped our human world... and it shapes this forum, doesn't it?


Edited by Caladrius (09/27/09 05:39 PM)
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#30120 - 09/27/09 05:56 PM Re: Satanic Ritual Magic- Psychological? [Re: Jake999]
Mercury_Templar Offline
93 93/93
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Registered: 09/16/07
Posts: 262
Loc: Cabarita, Vic, Australia
You have answered your own question Dan – there is always a pecking order. It is when this order breaks down – individually as well as in group situations – that problems start to occur.

And Jake: I have seen this behaviour occur in a wide range of personalities and social standings. I do a fair amount of social work (unpaid – good guy badge) and nine times out of ten, it is indeed a loss of a 'sense' of power/control that leads to suicidal thoughts/actions. Just for the record, I have only had one 'subject' actually proceed with a substantial full attempt – he/she is fairly stable now (after much follow-up) and it is nice to be thanked sincerely on a regular basis (I don't really do all this for nothing ;\) )

Perhaps the connotations of the term power are getting in the way. Mayhap 'place' is a better term to use. But with place, comes a sense of power and control – even if it is just over one's self.

Perhaps a new thread on this subject may be necessary.

M.'.T.'.


PS Just read Caladrius’ post – very cool – what he/she said \:\)



Edited by Mercury_Templar (09/27/09 05:59 PM)
Edit Reason: ...added PS
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#30121 - 09/27/09 06:13 PM Re: Satanic Ritual Magic- Psychological? [Re: Mercury_Templar]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3883
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Quote:

there is always a pecking order. It is when this order breaks down – individually as well as in group situations – that problems start to occur.

Well, yes. I would agree with that. I don't really see how that follows from "a need for power/control is the primary law of nature" though. This is more of a general observation on the sociology of /some/ humans than any sort of immutable 'law' applicable to all of 'nature'.

Perhaps you just like to use dramatic language? :P


I think a new thread on this topic could be fruitful.


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#30123 - 09/27/09 10:24 PM Re: Satanic Ritual Magic- Psychological? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Mercury_Templar Offline
93 93/93
member


Registered: 09/16/07
Posts: 262
Loc: Cabarita, Vic, Australia
I am considering this from the perspective of understanding suicide – primarily that of humans. I am drawing influence from Jean-Marie Guyau, Émile Durkheim, Immanuel Kant and Friedrich Nietzsche. I am mixing the theories of Anomie and 'der Wille zur Macht' (the Will to Power). I have studied and witnessed the breakdown of der Welle, and the subsequent inception of Anomie, devastate previously stable and positive people on many occasions. My wider observations relating to all of nature are, as you have suggested, general observations.

Yes, I would be willing to take part in a discussion relating to suicide and suicide prevention.

M.'.T.'.
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#30195 - 10/01/09 10:06 AM Re: Satanic Ritual Magic- Psychological? [Re: MissKitty]
Satansfarm Offline
member


Registered: 01/12/08
Posts: 352
Loc: america
I have used ritual magic to affect a desired outcome and to also reaffirm or consolidate my beliefs. Call it self improvement by acknowledging the achievements of others through a ritual toasting. Timing is most important; however in times of dire need
and practical necessity, I sometimes choose to just do it when I feel it. Emotion plays a great part in this, I agree.

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#30302 - 10/05/09 09:13 PM Re: Satanic Ritual Magic- Psychological? [Re: Satansfarm]
Miss May Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/27/09
Posts: 66
Loc: sebastopol, CA
For me personally, the whole process revolves around my emotional state and the success is even more dependent upon it. I find that a true awareness of one's emotional patterns gives way to a whole new level of control in magik.
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#30364 - 10/08/09 12:58 AM Re: Satanic Ritual Magic- Psychological? [Re: Miss May]
FlameReborn Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 36
Loc: SPFLD,OH,USA
 Quote:
but I do not agree with your assertion that self-preservation may be a fundamental law of nature – consider suicide in all its forms (no, I don't mean 'go kill yourself'). It is more probable that a need for power/control is the primary law of nature – for it is with a loss of authority that animals (humans included) consider ending everything – sometimes not just their self.


"Hate your enemies with a whole heart, and if a man smite you on one cheek, SMASH him on the other!: smite him hip and thigh for, self preservation is the highest law."
(TSB, The Book of Satan, Verse 7)

This is where I got that from M.T.

In psychology it's called the fight or flight chemicals. I struggled with this my freshman year of college, then I was a peace loving student of Buddhism, and I couldn't imagine a peaceful humanity with brains naturally engineered to either run in defense or beat the living hell out of something. If peace was an objective, in my past opinions, we would either have to physically change our brains or spend our lives as human animals always running.

At least for me, as a Satanist, the birthday is another good example (in Satanism) since the day of your existence is the most important, then further importance is spent on taking steps to continue existing, or self-preservation. I don't mean in in a crude brainless form of preservation, I know that we have those fight or flight chemicals, but we can use psychology and sentience to our advantage.

I guess in the end the term self-preservation like Satanic Magic is left to the interpretation of the individual. (The first paragraph in the TSB mentions that even the definition listed in the chapter on what magic is, is left up to personal interpretation.)

-FRB

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#30418 - 10/10/09 10:55 AM Re: Satanic Ritual Magic- Psychological? [Re: MissKitty]
Miss May Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/27/09
Posts: 66
Loc: sebastopol, CA
Perhaps, you need to further examine your definition of magik and put aside your usual stigmas attached to it. Magik is something one uses attain their desires.
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#30921 - 10/28/09 10:35 PM Re: Satanic Ritual Magic- Psychological? [Re: Atralux Lucis]
HEX Offline
lurker


Registered: 09/22/09
Posts: 1
Loc: PA
I firmly believe in using blood in my magik and my Sigils
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#30933 - 10/29/09 03:16 AM Re: Satanic Ritual Magic- Psychological? [Re: HEX]
Mercury_Templar Offline
93 93/93
member


Registered: 09/16/07
Posts: 262
Loc: Cabarita, Vic, Australia
...pathetic first post - read the rules or 'go away'.

M.'.T.'.
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MALKUTH
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#36326 - 03/13/10 04:03 PM Re: Satanic Ritual Magic- Psychological? [Re: Atralux Lucis]
Ruwan Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/10/10
Posts: 8
Loc: Bahrain
well to be honest I mostly conduct destruction Rituals, I feel instead of conducting love/lust or a compassion ritual. I should just actively do something about the problem.
I conduct destruction Rituals because I cant do anything about the problem, with today’s society one can not just go out an attack another with out the worry of law enforcement.
So I conduct a Destruction Ritual to rid my self of emotions knowing full well that it probably wont do a lick of difference.

its mostly so I don’t do anything stupid when I am confronted with the problem again.
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#36341 - 03/13/10 09:21 PM Re: Satanic Ritual Magic- Psychological? [Re: Ruwan]
Noctuary Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/01/10
Posts: 92
 Originally Posted By: Ruwan
well to be honest I mostly conduct destruction Rituals, I feel instead of conducting love/lust or a compassion ritual. I should just actively do something about the problem.
I conduct destruction Rituals because I cant do anything about the problem, with today’s society one can not just go out an attack another with out the worry of law enforcement.
So I conduct a Destruction Ritual to rid my self of emotions knowing full well that it probably wont do a lick of difference.

its mostly so I don’t do anything stupid when I am confronted with the problem again.

Actually I can relate to this. At least when I was younger. That feeling of wanting to have control during a period of time you feel you have no control. It's almost akin to an eating disorder (as a general you know...I have no control so let me show you what I can control sorta thing.) Anyways..I stopped doing these rituals in my twenties. I realized revenge was better. And there is nothing more vengeful then being happy when life is trying to make you not happy. Jesus, I sound like some hippy. But I hope you get what I am saying. Sorry....currently on Vicodin for back pain. I could be a tad loopy
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