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#27025 - 07/11/09 08:51 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Fist]
hellbent666
Unregistered



Honestly I'm glad gays aren't getting the ability to adopt and raise kids in a sexually compulsive environment. Just because you can doesn't mean you should ;\) And yes, I am making a sweeping generalization. EVERY gay person I've ever met was sexually compulsive. I don't want our future raised to believe that sex is supposed to be impulsive. I wonder in the years to come what studies of kids raised by gay couples actually turn out to be gay themselves. It would put a whole new twist on whether or not homosexuality is natural or as a product of one's psychological trauma, societal influence, or up-bringing. And on the record, I don't want most straight people having kids either!
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#27026 - 07/11/09 09:00 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: ]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Actually, studies have already been conducted on the so-called "gayby" boom.

"According to the American Psychological Association, numerous research shows that most kids of same-sex households describe themselves as heterosexual in roughly the same proportion as conventional families. The association also says that homosexuality is not deviant behavior but a normal expression of human sexuality."

There was an odd thing I found in the article that flies in the face of anti-gay adoption propaganda. Some children of gay parents actively suppress their natural bi or homosexual tendencies in order to keep their parents from "looking bad", ie, the common misconception that gay parents will raise gay kids.

Here's the full article.
_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

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#27028 - 07/11/09 09:56 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Nemesis]
hellbent666
Unregistered



Nemesis! Thank you dear! This is the study me and my substance abuse counselor were looking for! I wasn't BS'ing when I said I was genuinely curious on the subject. Him and I have an ongoing argument about whether homosexuality is natural, or a knee jerk reaction to sexual trauma. There are plenty of instances in nature we can look at, even this one about a homosexual pair of penguins raising an abandoned egg as a couple. I don't know why I am so interested in it, maybe it's due to my constant battle with trying to prove the xtians wrong with scientific evidence...

I guess we could further play Diabolus Advocate and say that "natural" is a trend in common behavior, thus proving homosexuality to be "unnatural". Of course this would also play into the argument that base, or carnal behavior is "natural". If we can observe it in fruit flies then perhaps this is natural. In prison it is a sign of weakness. Weakness when a man substitutes men for women, where no women are available. I think this argument could go one of 3 different ways.

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#27030 - 07/11/09 10:37 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: ]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
I guess we could further play Diabolus Advocate and say that "natural" is a trend in common behavior, thus proving homosexuality to be "unnatural".


Are you aware that homsexuality is not something that only people do? Here is an interesting article on homosexual activity among animals from the National Geographic website:

 Quote:
Homosexual Activity Among Animals Stirs Debate

James Owen in London
for National Geographic News
July 23, 2004

Birds do it, bees do it, even educated fleas do it. So go the lyrics penned by U.S. songwriter Cole Porter.

Porter, who first hit it big in the 1920s, wouldn't risk parading his homosexuality in public. In his day "the birds and the bees" generally meant only one thing—sex between a male and female.

But, actually, some same-sex birds do do it. So do beetles, sheep, fruit bats, dolphins, and orangutans. Zoologists are discovering that homosexual and bisexual activity is not unknown within the animal kingdom.

Roy and Silo, two male chinstrap penguins at New York's Central Park Zoo have been inseparable for six years now. They display classic pair-bonding behavior—entwining of necks, mutual preening, flipper flapping, and the rest. They also have sex, while ignoring potential female mates.

Wild birds exhibit similar behavior. There are male ostriches that only court their own gender, and pairs of male flamingos that mate, build nests, and even raise foster chicks.

Filmmakers recently went in search of homosexual wild animals as part of a National Geographic Ultimate Explorer documentary about the female's role in the mating game. (The film, Girl Power, will be screened in the U.S this Saturday at 8 p.m. ET, 5 p.m PT on MSNBC TV.)

The team caught female Japanese macaques engaged in intimate acts which, if observed in humans, would be in the X-rated category.

"The homosexual behavior that goes on is completely baffling and intriguing," says National Geographic Ultimate Explorer correspondent, Mireya Mayor. "You would have thought females that want to be mated, especially over their fertile period, would be seeking out males."

Well, perhaps, in a roundabout way, they are seeking males, suggests primatologist Amy Parish.

She argues that female macaques may enhance their social position through homosexual intimacy which in turn influences breeding success. Parish says, "Taking something that's nonreproductive, like mounting another female—if it leads to control of a resource or acquisition of a resource or a good alliance partner, that could directly impact your reproductive success."

Sexual Gratification

On the other hand, they could just be enjoying themselves, suggests Paul Vasey, animal behavior professor at the University of Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada. "They're engaging in the behavior because it's gratifying sexually or it's sexually pleasurable," he says. "They just like it. It doesn't have any sort of adaptive payoff."

Matthew Grober, biology professor at Georgia State University, agrees, saying, "If [sex] wasn't fun, we wouldn't have any kids around. So I think that maybe Japanese macaques have taken the fun aspect of sex and really run with it."

The bonobo, an African ape closely related to humans, has an even bigger sexual appetite. Studies suggest 75 percent of bonobo sex is nonreproductive and that nearly all bonobos are bisexual. Frans de Waal, author of Bonobo: The Forgotten Ape, calls the species a "make love, not war" primate. He believes bonobos use sex to resolve conflicts between individuals.

Other animals appear to go through a homosexual phase before they become fully mature. For instance, male dolphin calves often form temporary sexual partnerships, which scientists believe help to establish lifelong bonds. Such sexual behavior has been documented only relatively recently. Zoologists have been accused of skirting round the subject for fear of stepping into a political minefield.

"There was a lot of hiding of what was going on, I think, because people were maybe afraid that they would get into trouble by talking about it," notes de Waal. Whether it's a good idea or not, it's hard not make comparisons between humans and other animals, especially primates. The fact that homosexuality does, after all, exist in the natural world is bound to be used against people who insist such behavior is unnatural.

In the U.S., in particular, the moral debate over this issue rages on. Many on the religious right regard homosexuality as a sin. And only this month, President Bush vowed to continue his bid to ban gay marriages after the Senate blocked the proposal.

Already, cases of animal homosexuality have been cited in successful court cases brought against states like Texas, where gay sex was, until recently, illegal.

Yet scientists say we should be wary of referring to animals when considering what's acceptable in human society. For instance, infanticide, as practiced by lions and many other animals, isn't something people, gay or straight, generally approve of in humans.

Human Homosexuality

So how far can we go in using animals to help us understand human homosexuality? Robin Dunbar is a professor of evolutionary psychology at the University of Liverpool, England. "The bottom line is that anything that happens in other primates, and particularly other apes, is likely to have strong evolutionary continuity with what happens in humans," he said.

Dunbar says the bonobo's use of homosexual activity for social bonding is a possible example, adding, "One of the main arguments for human homosexual behavior is that it helps bond male groups together, particularly where a group of individuals are dependent on each other, as they might be in hunting or warfare."

For instance, the Spartans, in ancient Greece, encouraged homosexuality among their elite troops. "They had the not unreasonable belief that individuals would stick by and make all efforts to rescue other individuals if they had a lover relationship," Dunbar added.

Another suggestion is that homosexuality is a developmental phase people go through. He said, "This is similar to the argument of play in young animals to get their brain and muscles to work effectively and together. Off the back of this, there's the possibility you can get individuals locked into this phase for the rest of their lives as a result of the social environment they grow up in."

But he adds that homosexuality doesn't necessarily have to have a function. It could be a spin-off or by-product of something else and in itself carries no evolutionary weight."

He cites sexual gratification, which encourages procreation, as an example. "An organism is designed to maximize its motivational systems," he adds.

In other words, if the urge to have sex is strong enough it may spill over into nonreproductive sex, as suggested by the actions of the bonobos and macaques. However, as Dunbar admits, there's a long way to go before the causes of homosexuality in humans are fully understood.

He said, "Nobody's really investigated this issue thoroughly, because it's so politically sensitive. It's fair to say all possibilities are still open."
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#27033 - 07/12/09 02:32 AM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
hellbent666
Unregistered



thanks for all the fire power you 2 ;\)
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#27035 - 07/12/09 04:18 AM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: TornadoCreator]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Morgan
So these ideas about right or wrong laws affect you on a mental level, but not your daily life.

tc: Pretty much.

Originally Posted By: Morgan
Do you expect at one point to get out of your armchair soapbox and do something about how you feel?

tc: I do if I feel the effort is likely to cause a change. Most of the time I'm just debating as a means of recreation though, if it's raises conciousness and awareness of the issue then all the better.


So, you are just pretty much jerking off into the wind to get a point across that doesn't mean shit to you. Most people are aware of gay rights and how it affects or doesn't affect them.

Originally Posted By: Morgan
Gay people may have problems depending where they live, but they are not lower class people. I find that statement offensive.


I will point out the use of the word MAY, are you aware of what it means?

tc:
Will you move to a country where you have no roots, no connections, no family and friends, maybe don't know the language or the culture all that well... why? because idealistically, you oppose a law that's not likely to affect your life in your current country? I doubt it somehow.


You don't know me. I used to be the family gypsy. I have an ex in London I plan to see in the fall. He wanted me to move to Australia, and New Zealand. I would have, but I was working for a company I couldn't get away from at the time. I don't bitch about topics that don't affect me, I do stuff. I march in gay pride, I walked down the street holding my girlfriends hand. I vote for those who support gay rights. I don't need to just talk shit and do nothing about a topic. If it really means something to you. Then do something.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#27053 - 07/13/09 01:31 AM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Morgan]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
I don't see your argument Morgan. I mean sure I can understand your point and I agree people who have a stance yet do nothing to change the situation have no right to complain unless they physically can't change the situation. However, both you and ta2zz make the same point regardless of the discussion and it's "Well why don't you get up off your arse and do something about it?" which is a perfectly valid question but it's not a reason to not discuss the topic.

It perfectly reasonable to enter a discussion forum and discuss a topic that you have an opinion on, especially politics, moral philosophy and aesthetics as these things are subjective and worthy of in depth discussion. It's a discussion forum, it's very purpose is for us to discuss these topics yet for some reason you want me to not discuss them. Regardless of whether I'm getting up off my arse and doing something about my chosen complaint, the fact is I want to discuss it on a discussion forum, for whatever reason. I don't think it's unreasonable to presume that I don't need to justify this. It's the very purpose of the forum.
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#27056 - 07/13/09 04:19 AM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: TornadoCreator]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
It's not that you are discussing the topics, it how you present yourself in relation to it.

As Asemodieus (sorry spelling) pointed out (in another post,so you don't think its just Ta2zz, and I who notice it), you take all these things to heart and say you will fight for people to do whatever, but you don't actually do anything about it.

That was my issue with it.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#27064 - 07/13/09 03:56 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Morgan]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1737
Loc: New York
Actually, regarding the post which you refer to, I was on TC's side, regarding posting an opinion, without having the need to go out and doing something about the situation.

Personally, there are many things that piss me off in the world, but unfortunately, I do not have the will, and the fortitude, to go out and do things about them, mainly because I do not see them as a winnable situation.

For example, I hate the way that the government is constantly in my business (and everyone else's). Such as having to register one's home address with the motorvehicle department and which record is considered public. Mandatory car insurance, making certain CARTOONS illegal, having to file a tax return (even though they already have all the records, and take money from my paychecks on a regular basis). It's a long list, and I don't have to time to go out and petition against the things that I find to be a pain in the ass.

So, like most sheep, I will just bitch about it to friends, and online, and do my very best to avoid getting caught up in the "Bullshit Web" as much as possible.
_________________________
"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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#27080 - 07/14/09 12:58 AM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Asmedious]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Okay, but I was more of making a point of the pattern in the way he presents things so much that you could portray him easily.

"It's a long list, and I don't have to time to go out and petition against the things that I find to be a pain in the ass.
So, like most sheep, I will just bitch about it to friends, and online, and do my very best to avoid getting caught up in the "Bullshit Web" as much as possible."

Okay, I understand your point of view.

It's just when someone gets so up in arms about everything, and writes with such a personal fever yet doesn't act in public about his beliefs, its kinda hypocritical and pretentious.

If no one else thinks its a problem, then go ahead Tc lead from your arm chair.

I'll be silent, observe your posts then go out and do what I think is the right thing to do to get shit done.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#27081 - 07/14/09 02:24 AM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Morgan]
ZephyrGirl Offline
R.I.P.
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 706
Loc: Adelaide Australia
I think this comes to the core of why he is no longer blue. Satanists DO. Will is one of the most important part of life, the will to LIVE.

It is the core root of what a Satanist DOES in life. An armchair Satanist really is an insult and should be. Satanists don't just live in their armchairs and basements. That is what makes people elite, what they do and or did in their lives.

I know I'm here from an armchair perspective, to an extent, but I've already DONE alot of shit and have real world experience, I'm not just GONNA Do and BE anything. I've been there and done that and that gives me the chops to have an armchair opinion.

Respect must be EARNT!

ZephyrGirl
_________________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass -
It's about learning to dance in the rain.


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#27082 - 07/14/09 02:43 AM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Morgan]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I agree, at times I get the impression that I am reading another 'Internet broadcast of the minority defense squad'. If consciousness raising is the issue; the question that comes to mind is: "why here?". After all, the big problem for gay marriage isn't the enormous number of satanists putting political pressure out there to have their elected representatives hinder the laws from being passed. The root of the problem is situated elsewhere and addressing it, logically implies raising consciousness there.

Not to say anything is open for debate and argument here.

D.

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#27083 - 07/14/09 03:20 AM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Diavolo]
hellbent666
Unregistered



everyone bitches about shit they can't change, thus we have protesters. When has a giant cardboard sign changed anything?
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#27084 - 07/14/09 04:01 AM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: ]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Boston tea party was one for a start.....
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#27086 - 07/14/09 09:56 AM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: ZephyrGirl]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
 Originally Posted By: ZephyrGirl
I think this comes to the core of why he is no longer blue. Satanists DO. Will is one of the most important part of life, the will to LIVE.

It is the core root of what a Satanist DOES in life. An armchair Satanist really is an insult and should be. Satanists don't just live in their armchairs and basements. That is what makes people elite, what they do and or did in their lives.

I know I'm here from an armchair perspective, to an extent, but I've already DONE alot of shit and have real world experience, I'm not just GONNA Do and BE anything. I've been there and done that and that gives me the chops to have an armchair opinion.

Respect must be EARNT!

ZephyrGirl


That's an assumption isn't it, and if it is the reason I no longer wear blue well it's nice to know it was removed for ignorance on the part of the admin team rather than an actual reason. You all claim that I'm some "armchair" activist yet you're all the same, everyone here, including me, is an armchair activist for the most part. We're all elitist and we are all pompous, at least I'm man enough to admit it, however, I still feel it's a bit unfair to pigeon hole me.

Don't assume you know what I do or when I do it. I've taken part in protests and petitions. I spent 2 years doing an international free media radio broadcast to raise conciousness on current issues and politics (received 600+ listeners weekly on it's height). I'm a member of multiple societies and have represented them in conferences and discussion groups. I do get involved, but even if I didn't, that's a bloody stupid reason to claim someone shouldn't be respected and that they're a bad Satanist. Not every opinion needs to have time devoted to it in order to further some fucking cause. Time is our most valuable commodity and sometimes I want to sit in my room in my underwear, eating egg butties and watching TV. Why? Because I bloody well enjoy it, and if mindless self indulgence isn't something I should be pursuing, then I guess I misinterpreted "worship yourself". Furthering yourself and every cause you follow is a great use of time. Personal gratification is more important though, if you're not happy, why the fuck bother. I don't have time for both, so I use what SPARE time I have to follow my ideals and learn new stuff about the world. The majority of my time is devoted to making me happy.
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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