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#27090 - 07/14/09 12:49 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: TornadoCreator]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
You all claim that I'm some "armchair" activist yet you're all the same, everyone here, including me, is an armchair activist for the most part.

No generalisations please, it's not because they call you an armchair activist you need to call everyone the same in defense. Especially if you don't have any background of other members...

Second remark: not everyone here is elitist. Being elite means having a certain branch or doing you are specialised in and can claim with back-up from others that you indeed are the best in that branch. Not everyone is elitist, yet anyone can ACT elitist. Acting and being is a whole difference...
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#27092 - 07/14/09 01:26 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Dimitri]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Quote:
You all claim that I'm some "armchair" activist yet you're all the same, everyone here, including me, is an armchair activist for the most part.

No generalisations please, it's not because they call you an armchair activist you need to call everyone the same in defense. Especially if you don't have any background of other members...

They're all active members of a discussion forum, thus the claim is valid.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Second remark: not everyone here is elitist. Being elite means having a certain branch or doing you are specialised in and can claim with back-up from others that you indeed are the best in that branch. Not everyone is elitist, yet anyone can ACT elitist. Acting and being is a whole difference...

OK, I always assumed elitist meant someone who acted as though they where part of the social or intellectual elite. It's what it's always meant with people I've spoken with in person.
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If you can't practice what you preach, at least have the decency to preach what you practice

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#27093 - 07/14/09 02:28 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Dimitri]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
One can define elitist as many things, even when not invoking the dictionary, and in too many cases it is a rather non relevant but emotionally rewarding argument. A bit like calling yourself the sexiest wo/man on earth. I prefer to see elite as that what is not mass.

Ortega y Gasset described it rather well in his "The Revolt of the Masses".

 Quote:
The concept of the multitude is quantitative and visual. Without changing its nature, let us translate it into terms of sociology. We then meet with the notion of the "social mass." Society is always a dynamic unity of two component factors: minorities and masses. The minorities are individuals or groups of individuals which are specially qualified. The mass is the assemblage of persons not specially qualified. By masses, then, is not to be understood, solely or mainly, "the working masses." The mass is the average man.

In this way what was mere quantity- the multitude- is converted into a qualitative determination: it becomes the common social quality, man as undifferentiated from other men, but as repeating in himself a generic type. What have we gained by this conversion of quantity into quality? Simply this: by means of the latter we understand the genesis of the former. It is evident to the verge of platitude that the normal formation of a multitude implies the coincidence of desires, ideas, ways of life, in the individuals who constitute it. It will be objected that this is just what happens with every social group, however select it may strive to be. This is true; but there is an essential difference. In those groups which are characterised by not being multitude and mass, the effective coincidence of its members is based on some desire, idea, or ideal, which of itself excludes the great number. To form a minority, of whatever kind, it is necessary beforehand that each member separate himself from the multitude for special, relatively personal, reasons. Their coincidence with the others who form the minority is, then, secondary, posterior to their having each adopted an attitude of singularity, and is consequently, to a large extent, a coincidence in not coinciding.

There are cases in which this singularising character of the group appears in the light of day: those English groups, which style themselves "nonconformists," where we have the grouping together of those who agree only in their disagreement in regard to the limitless multitude. This coming together of the minority precisely in order to separate themselves from the majority is a necessary ingredient in the formation of every minority. Speaking of the limited public which listened to a musician of refinement, Mallarme wittily says that this public by its presence in small numbers stressed the absence of the multitude.
Strictly speaking, the mass, as a psychological fact, can be defined without waiting for individuals to appear in mass formation. In the presence of one individual we can decide whether he is "mass" or not. The mass is all that which sets no value on itself- good or ill- based on specific grounds, but which feels itself "just like everybody," and nevertheless is not concerned about it; is, in fact, quite happy to feel itself as one with everybody else. Imagine a humble-minded man who, having tried to estimate his own worth on specific grounds- asking himself if he has any talent for this or that, if he excels in any direction- realises that he possesses no quality of excellence. Such a man will feel that he is mediocre and commonplace, ill-gifted, but will not feel himself "mass."

When one speaks of "select minorities" it is usual for the evil-minded to twist the sense of this expression, pretending to be unaware that the select man is not the petulant person who thinks himself superior to the rest, but the man who demands more of himself than the rest, even though he may not fulfil in his person those higher exigencies. For there is no doubt that the most radical division that it is possible to make of humanity is that which splits it into two classes of creatures: those who make great demands on themselves, piling up difficulties and duties; and those who demand nothing special of themselves, but for whom to live is to be every moment what they already are, without imposing on themselves any effort towards perfection; mere buoys that float on the waves. This reminds me that orthodox Buddhism is composed of two distinct religions: one, more rigorous and difficult, the other easier and more trivial: the Mahayana- "great vehicle" or "great path"- and the Hinayana- "lesser vehicle" or "lesser path." The decisive matter is whether we attach our life to one or the other vehicle, to a maximum or a minimum of demands upon ourselves.

The division of society into masses and select minorities is, then, not a division into social classes, but into classes of men, and cannot coincide with the hierarchic separation of "upper" and "lower" classes. It is, of course, plain that in these "upper" classes, when and as long as they really are so, there is much more likelihood of finding men who adopt the "great vehicle," whereas the "lower" classes normally comprise individuals of minus quality. But, strictly speaking, within both these social classes, there are to be found mass and genuine minority.


D.

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#27094 - 07/14/09 03:29 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Diavolo]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
Generally speaking, I've found that if you have to tell people you are "elite," you probably aren't.

Yes, it's a one-liner, but nonetheless valid.
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#27107 - 07/15/09 07:12 AM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Daryl Basarab]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
This thread is about gay marriage and all its social connotations, not the marriage ceremony itself or what your terms for procreation are. Stick to Satanism 101 until you have a better idea of how things work on this forum.
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#27113 - 07/15/09 10:05 AM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Nemesis]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Ok, so now we are getting ready to hit page 5 on this thread. Back on page 2 I asked the pro-gay committee to define gay marriage. I got nothing. Now, as is always the case in this debate, the issue of 'gay rights' came up.

So please, can you people tell me what exactly is a 'gay marriage' and what are these 'gay rights' you keep talking about? Homos enjoy all of the rights that everyone else enjoys. Can anyone help me out here?
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#27115 - 07/15/09 11:15 AM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Fist]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
On the last page I posted a fairly in depth description of what marriage is. That description could easily be used to describe gay marriage. The only thing that would change is that the couples would be of the same sex.

Gay marriage is exactly the same legal contract that straight marriage is, but it is entered into by same sex couples. Does that really need to be explained?

You say that homosexuals have the same rights as everyone else, and indeed they do. However they don't enjoy the same rights as a straight married couple. These rights include, but are not limited to:

Joint parental rights of children

Joint adoption

Right to make a decision about the disposal of loved ones remains

Immigration and residency for partners from other countries

Crime victims recovery benefits

Domestic violence protection orders

Judicial protections and immunity

Automatic inheritance in the absence of a will

Public safety officers death benefits

Spousal veterans benefits

Social Security

Medicare

Joint filing of tax returns

Wrongful death benefits for surviving partner and children

Bereavement or sick leave to care for partner or children

Child support

Joint Insurance Plans

Tax credits including: Child tax credit, Hope and lifetime learning credits

Deferred Compensation for pension and IRAs

Estate and gift tax benefits

Welfare and public assistance

Joint housing for elderly

Credit protection

Medical care for survivors and dependents of certain veterans

You seem to give off the impression that you are against gay marriage. If I am wrong about that, then I apologize. If I am right, however, I respectfully ask why you are of that opinion.
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#27118 - 07/15/09 12:40 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Fist]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
 Originally Posted By: Fist
Ok, so now we are getting ready to hit page 5 on this thread. Back on page 2 I asked the pro-gay committee to define gay marriage. I got nothing. Now, as is always the case in this debate, the issue of 'gay rights' came up.

So please, can you people tell me what exactly is a 'gay marriage' and what are these 'gay rights' you keep talking about? Homos enjoy all of the rights that everyone else enjoys. Can anyone help me out here?


Gay marriage is the union of a man and a man, or a woman and a woman, in which they are recognised by the state as each others next of kin in the same manner as any marriage between a man and a woman. Surely this is self explanatory

As for your statement "Homos enjoy all of the rights that everyone else enjoys", that is an outright fucking lie. You can convince yourself of this all you like but it's false. Gay people are treated poorly. They cannot get married, the cannot adopt, in many countries they are even put to death.

Homosexuality is still a crime in 47 different countries, carries a life sentence in 5 of them and carries the death penalty in 8 of them. Gay marriage is legal only in Canada, Spain, South Africa, Norway, Sweden, Belgium and Netherlands. Housing Discrimination and Employment Discrimination are still hot issues in most places, with few countries having laws against discrimination for sexual orientation, and some like USA having hypocritical laws by which they will make discrimination by sexual orientation illegal yet gay marriage and gay adoption in illegal in almost every state.

In the military gays are also treated like second class citizens. In the UN Security Council, only 2 out of 5 countries allow gays. UK & France. Russia and China ban them outright, and USA only allows them if they remain celibate and are secretive of their sexual orientation.

Only 15 countries allow gay adoption (and USA isn't one of them, it's only legal in 6 states, and there it's difficult to get accepted, moving states often gets your kids taken from you and put in foster care)

The only countries with full equal rights to gays are Canada, Norway, Sweden, Belgium, Netherlands and Spain. That's 6 out of 203 countries. Sure, gays have all the same rights as straights don't they.
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#27120 - 07/15/09 01:06 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: TornadoCreator]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
If it disturbs you, start a protest action.
I'm with Fist when it comes to "gays having equal rights".
Marriage is not a right! Keep that in mind, it's something you CAN do but not should do.

Marriage is the same as having a religious belief, you are free to chose whatever belief you have, but it isn't a right to have a particular belief everyone should obey in your opinion. In the case of marriage it's something you can do, but are not forced to do.

Marriage was and still is an overblown union (lack of better words) which is not necessary to have a "happy" life. Therefor it isn't a right.
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#27122 - 07/15/09 01:12 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Dimitri]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
If it disturbs you, start a protest action.
I'm with Fist when it comes to "gays having equal rights".
Marriage is not a right! Keep that in mind, it's something you CAN do but not should do.

And it's something gay people CAN'T do. Right simply means something you are allowed to do, not necessarily something you should do.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Marriage is the same as having a religious belief, you are free to chose whatever belief you have, but it isn't a right to have a particular belief everyone should obey in your opinion. In the case of marriage it's something you can do, but are not forced to do.

In that case. Islam should be illegal. Everyone has the right to believe in Christianity, but believing in Islam should be illegal. See how stupid this stance is now. You clearly don't understand the argument.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Marriage was and still is an overblown union (lack of better words) which is not necessary to have a "happy" life. Therefor it isn't a right.

That's just fucking stupid. Wearing clothes is an overblown tradition of covering ones body which is not necessary to have a "happy" life. Therefore it isn't a right so let's pick a group of people and tell them they can't wear clothes. How about black people, or women, or gays. They can't wear clothes now, it's not a right after all.

This is fucking stupid. Your argument has more holes than Swiss cheese.
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#27123 - 07/15/09 01:20 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: TornadoCreator]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
And it's something gay people CAN'T do. Right simply means something you are allowed to do, not necessarily something you should do.
Ofcourse they can, you even admitted that it is possible in certain countries. This implies they have the possibility to do so.

 Quote:
In that case. Islam should be illegal. Everyone has the right to believe in Christianity, but believing in Islam should be illegal. See how stupid this stance is now. You clearly don't understand the argument.

Reread please...

 Quote:
That's just fucking stupid. Wearing clothes is an overblown tradition of covering ones body which is not necessary to have a "happy" life. Therefore it isn't a right so let's pick a group of people and tell them they can't wear clothes. How about black people, or women, or gays. They can't wear clothes now, it's not a right after all.

You can put your clothes off now, but I hope you don't live near any cold place where you reeze to death within a few seconds....

Rights are usually linked to morals, and how hard I try; I don't see any link marriage can be linked to a moral since it is only an action which takes place when both parties agree... A bit like 2 political parties who decide to work together. It's only a choice.
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#27127 - 07/15/09 01:38 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Dimitri]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Quote:
And it's something gay people CAN'T do. Right simply means something you are allowed to do, not necessarily something you should do.
Ofcourse they can, you even admitted that it is possible in certain countries. This implies they have the possibility to do so.

But not here. I don't care if it's legal in Canada, I want it legal here. Ideally, it should be legal EVERYWHERE. The law doesn't become justified just because it's only around in some places. Women have no rights in Saudi Arabia, but that's OK. If they wanted rights, they can go somewhere else, right? You fucking moron.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Quote:
In that case. Islam should be illegal. Everyone has the right to believe in Christianity, but believing in Islam should be illegal. See how stupid this stance is now. You clearly don't understand the argument.

Reread please...

Yes please do...

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Quote:
That's just fucking stupid. Wearing clothes is an overblown tradition of covering ones body which is not necessary to have a "happy" life. Therefore it isn't a right so let's pick a group of people and tell them they can't wear clothes. How about black people, or women, or gays. They can't wear clothes now, it's not a right after all.

You can put your clothes off now, but I hope you don't live near any cold place where you reeze to death within a few seconds....

Rights are usually linked to morals, and how hard I try; I don't see any link marriage can be linked to a moral since it is only an action which takes place when both parties agree... A bit like 2 political parties who decide to work together. It's only a choice.

Yes. A choice that it's illegal for gay people to make. How fucking hard is it. Do you have cheese for a brain or are you really that stupid that you can't see the obvious inequality here.

Now either make an argument that isn't a fallacy, or piss off.
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#27128 - 07/15/09 01:50 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: TornadoCreator]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Quote:
But not here. I don't care if it's legal in Canada, I want it legal here. Ideally, it should be legal EVERYWHERE. The law doesn't become justified just because it's only around in some places. Women have no rights in Saudi Arabia, but that's OK. If they wanted rights, they can go somewhere else, right? You fucking moron.

There we have the keyword... "ideally". Ideology that is.
Women have no rights in Saudi-Arabia? So what, if we take an estimation that they make out a 50% of the people then they have enough force to shed that bullshit off. Ohyeah, I forgot, most people prefer to be lazy and be armchair activists..

 Quote:
Yes. A choice that it's illegal for gay people to make. How fucking hard is it. Do you have cheese for a brain or are you really that stupid that you can't see the obvious inequality here.

Illegal means not permitted, this differs, they simple don't have the choice.

And I still wander, why are you getting that upset by it and start calling names for something you already claimed you don't care about...
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#27129 - 07/15/09 02:10 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Dimitri]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Quote:
But not here. I don't care if it's legal in Canada, I want it legal here. Ideally, it should be legal EVERYWHERE. The law doesn't become justified just because it's only around in some places. Women have no rights in Saudi Arabia, but that's OK. If they wanted rights, they can go somewhere else, right? You fucking moron.

There we have the keyword... "ideally". Ideology that is.
Women have no rights in Saudi-Arabia? So what, if we take an estimation that they make out a 50% of the people then they have enough force to shed that bullshit off. Ohyeah, I forgot, most people prefer to be lazy and be armchair activists..

Or maybe they're intelligent enough to understand that bullets hurt, and as not all women are psychically linked, they can't all revolt at the same time. So what happens, some people start to fight back, they get squashed and the others think "I like being alive, let's just shut the fuck up". If you understood sociology you would know why this happens. Become better informed before making such ignorant claims.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Quote:
Yes. A choice that it's illegal for gay people to make. How fucking hard is it. Do you have cheese for a brain or are you really that stupid that you can't see the obvious inequality here.

Illegal means not permitted, this differs, they simple don't have the choice.

And I still wander, why are you getting that upset by it and start calling names for something you already claimed you don't care about...

Ignorance, stupidity and self-deceit gets me riled up. They are after all the cardinal sins of Satanism.

Besides, I find insulting people who do such a good job of looking like a moron rather relaxing. It gets out my anger and I find it rather therapeutic. Plus you're just plain wrong on so many point, and as everyone knows...

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#27152 - 07/15/09 11:15 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: TornadoCreator]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Coin toss: Try to get the wall to sing opera or reply to TCÖ Damn

 Originally Posted By: TC
Ignorance, stupidity and self-deceit gets me riled up. They are after all the cardinal sins of Satanism.

Besides, I find insulting people who do such a good job of looking like a moron rather relaxing. It gets out my anger and I find it rather therapeutic. Plus you're just plain wrong on so many point, and as everyone knows...

One shouldnít preach what he doesnít understand. Funny from where I stand you insult yourself by posting this picture but you cannot see that can you? Dimitri is not particularly weak. He has been here less time than you, has posted more yet has not had many against him. This is something for you to think about. You freely admit that you like insulting those that are easy targets or morons to use your own words. You also admit to posting to get out your anger, I find this amusing. Do you somehow think this is your personal outlet for therapy?

You have answers to your question there are places where you could go marry your football buddy if you wanted to. There is an answer but you are not happy with it. So you complain on the Internet, to you this discussion is your answer and somehow enough. Like so many real world things you have to get up off your ass and do something to get what you want. The world isnít Burger King you do not always get it your way. You could get it your way at BK but that costs money, which in turn means you need to be employed (there is that getting off your ass again). Now the last I heard you had two working arms and legs and were not crippled. If only the energy you waste here could be used to find a job or better your life in some way. You could raise your position to that of one who's opinion matters.

Back to the point, for an example if I wanted to live somewhere where most drugs are listed as recreational I could pick one of two or three countries to move to. Just like if I wanted to be somewhere where whites are superior I could easily move to Maine or a few spots in TX that I know of. To do this I would have to work hard. (I know this one will be hard to swallow so take a deep breath.) I would need to build up the money to be able to take charge of my own life and break away from the place I just happened to be born in. I could go the other route as well and try to work getting the laws changed in the place I live but that involves work of a different nature. Here lies the real issue; someone whom has very little yet wants a lot is never happy. Some complain about it, some invoke change of their own to make them selves happy, while others just live in their parentís basements sucking the teat dry. Crying that their diaper needs to be changed even when itís clean.

A Satanist takes control of his future as much as humanly possible. No matter how you pour it Satanism and lazy just doesnít mix.

You like to argue and you like to be right. Here you may always argue (until you tire the mods or admins) but I assure you that you will not always be right. Now since this is a big boys (and girls) discussion forum and you are at least suppose to be trying to at least act better than the average, maybe you could keep the typical grade school name calling to yourself.

Stop, please donít reply just think a bit.

~T~
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