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#27334 - 07/21/09 09:08 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: ceruleansteel]
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
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 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel
 Quote:
it's petty distinctions being made


What I find petty is the fact that the only thing you are apparently arguing about is the label. Marriage, I do believe, has a definition: one man and one woman. That is the legal definition. Thus, it would be impossible to call any other type of union by that name. A horse and a cat both have four legs and fur, but no fool would call a horse a feline.

You have equal rights. Stop bitching.


Marriage only had that definition in USA and only in the last decade or so. It was re-defined by the religious right in an attempt to legitimise the argument you just made. It's misdirection, nothing more.
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#27339 - 07/21/09 11:05 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: TornadoCreator]
Morgan Offline
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Oh my god, I can't take it anymore............

Please re read Diavolo's last post.

You are SUPPOSEDLY Satanists, who are really not supposed to give a FLYING FUCK about what the Xitian church thinks or says.

Shit, it's a word "marriage".

It only has the power you give it, and since a civil union gives you all the same rights what the fuck does it matter.

If you stand up in front of the people you care about and proclaim your love for life for another individual what difference is it if you do it in a church, city hall, or on a beach.

You only have to make yourself and your partner happy, if you can't do that then no word or phrase will ever make a difference.

FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK..............................

Morgan
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#27342 - 07/21/09 11:40 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Morgan]
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
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Morgan, if you can't understand why it bothers me that's fine. In many respects its a trivial thing, however on a certain level it's a fundamental injustice that I feel strongly about and I'm not alone. If you don't feel the same it's hard to explain, and it's nothing to do with how the Christian church treats us, it's all about laws, regulations, government and segregation. I can't really explain it any differently to how I already have.

The only thing that I feel I can say, is everyone here who's arguing against same sex unions has basically said what amounts to "if civil union and marriage give all the same rights, why the hell does it matter, they're the same thing", well, if you feel it's the same thing, why not agree we should name it the same, after all, you all consider it trivial but it means a hell of a lot to us. You can either tell us to grow up, tell us we're making a big deal out of nothing, and it really have no effect on you, or you can agree that same sex unions can be called marriage, knowing it would make us happy, and again it having no effect on you because... why the hell not, it's just a trivial thing, right?
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#27348 - 07/22/09 12:31 AM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: TornadoCreator]
Morgan Offline
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Registered: 08/29/07
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REMINDER from Diavolo post.....

"I decided to look up the legal status of homosexuals in the UK. After this whole debate I was under the assumption they were a bit the social niggers in the UK. I was kinda surprised when I read this on wiki:


Quote:
Civil partnerships in the United Kingdom, granted under the Civil Partnership Act 2004, give same-sex couples rights and responsibilities identical to civil marriage. Civil Partners are entitled to the same property rights as married opposite-sex couples, the same exemption as married couples on inheritance tax, social security and pension benefits, and also the ability to get parental responsibility for a partner's children,[1] as well as responsibility for reasonable maintenance of one's partner and their children, tenancy rights, full life insurance recognition, next-of-kin rights in hospitals, and others. There is a formal process for dissolving partnerships akin to divorce.


The question that appeared in my mind was: what is the fucking problem debated here so intensely upon? A white wedding?"


It's a word "Marriage" in your country which doesn't recoginize the pope anyway, Its all the same thing !!!!!!!!!!

So it means a lot to you, really???
You ever have a lover of the same sex?
You ever walk down the street holding their hand?
You ever talk about the future and kids with such a person?
I have so don't tell me it doesn't mean anything to me.

I'm just sick and tired about you going on about this when its pointless as Diavolo has previously pointed out.

Get it yet?

Morgan
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Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#27353 - 07/22/09 02:13 AM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Morgan]
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
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It obviously doesn't mean anything to you, because you said you didn't care, you told me it doesn't mean anything to you.

Yes, I have been in a same sex relationship, and I've dated multiple guys although none for very long. I specifically seek heterosexual relationships because I want to raise a family, however if I found a guy who was perfect for me then we could always either adopt or use a surrogate mother.

You say you're sick of the argument, you claim it's pointless and doesn't make any difference. That it's just a word. I'm claiming that the principle means more to me than you realise, that for my personal happiness it means a lot. If you're sick of arguing about it, stop, no-ones making you argue. I, however, have a stance, which I'm not entirely convinced you've understood (and I don't mean that in a condescending way, I'm not sure how I can explain it all that well anyway) and it greatly effects my emotional well-being, as it does others.

I'm a man of principles and my principles tell me that true equality, something I feel is of paramount importance within the realm of human rights, doesn't exist in the case of gays, even in a country like UK where we have civil unions, and especially not in USA where actual freedoms are taken away, that's without even considering the undeveloped world and their archaic laws. So for that reason I speak out about such things. It makes me unhappy to see my principles not valued globally, so I do what I can to instil my personal values in others and explain them in the hopes of changing peoples minds. (Why do I feel like I'm explaining the purpose of debating and philosophy to a four year old).

Now, you need to decide Morgan. Are you on the side of the gay rights movement, wanting true equality across the world; are you on the side of the anti-gay right fighting for the "sanctity of marriage"; or are you on the side of the apathetic crowd who don't give a shit (in which case why are you even arguing at all). You can't claim it's petty and pointless one minute, and act as though you're grievously insulted the next when I say it clearly doesn't matter to you. Either you give a shit or you don't, make up your mind.

As for me, I still feel gays are not treated equally. Sure the laws are the same, but the segregation is still there. Even if it's only their as a construct in language it's still there and in order to move on as a society in order to progress we need to stop these petty distinctions put up for the some purpose of legitimising prejudices. I hope this last paragraph highlights my reasons for wanting gays to have "marriage" not something similar, not something the same but with a different name, I want "marriage". In the same way as Women wanted to vote, they didn't want to have a "suggestion", or a "political pledge", they wanted to vote. They wanted the same thing men had, and they where right to want that. It's the same principal here.
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#27354 - 07/22/09 02:35 AM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: TornadoCreator]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3113

 Quote:
That it's just a word. I'm claiming that the principle means more to me than you realise, that for my personal happiness it means a lot.

So, because a "marriage" between 2 same sex people is called a civil unionship, although it is the same as a marriage, you feel your personal happiness attacked?

It's the same thing of starting a fuzz about calling shit turd.
However you would like it to be called it still remains the same thing. This is what diavolo and morgan mend. You can give it thousands of synonyms but it still remains the same fucking thing. It still is a "unionship". Marriage, hand-fasting,... are synonyms for the action (and maybe with a slight difference in texts) of unionship between 2 people.

 Quote:
I'm a man of principles and my principles tell me that true equality, something I feel is of paramount importance within the realm of human rights, doesn't exist in the case of gays, even in a country like UK where we have civil unions, and especially not in USA where actual freedoms are taken away, that's without even considering the undeveloped world and their archaic laws.

True equality? Pipedreams that is. Differences will always occur and will be based on every slight detail. Be it your sexual orientation, the way you look (I.e. how you are being stereotyped), your skin color, your behavior and many other things.
You may always try to get equality officially by laws, acts,... you might even succeed with that. But because it is written and everyone has to do so that everyone WILL obey it. We are humans after all, and as you know: humans seldom obey laws who go straight against natural principles.

 Quote:
Now, you need to decide Morgan. Are you on the side of the gay rights movement, wanting true equality across the world; are you on the side of the anti-gay right fighting for the "sanctity of marriage"; or are you on the side of the apathetic crowd who don't give a shit (in which case why are you even arguing at all). You can't claim it's petty and pointless one minute, and act as though you're grievously insulted the next when I say it clearly doesn't matter to you. Either you give a shit or you don't, make up your mind.

If you've read her answers you should know her opinion and position. You are placing people in a corner in which they have to choose between a vast amount of answers. This isn't really a way to debate don't you think?
It actually is even a sign of being close-minded and failure of the ability to discuss or debate.

 Quote:
As for me, I still feel gays are not treated equally. Sure the laws are the same, but the segregation is still there.

You are fighting against "the masses", and you together with another few are forming a minority. It is almost impossible for a minority to be recognized by the masses even if the laws put you on a same status. Learn to live with it. Minority stays minority.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/I1MSI592s64&hl=nl&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/I1MSI592s64&hl=nl&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Is a bit related in what the subject changed to now..


Edited by Dimitri (07/22/09 02:46 AM)
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#27355 - 07/22/09 03:14 AM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Dimitri]
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
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 Originally Posted By: Dimitri

 Quote:
That it's just a word. I'm claiming that the principle means more to me than you realise, that for my personal happiness it means a lot.

So, because a "marriage" between 2 same sex people is called a civil unionship, although it is the same as a marriage, you feel your personal happiness attacked?

It's the same thing of starting a fuzz about calling shit turd.
However you would like it to be called it still remains the same thing. This is what diavolo and morgan mend. You can give it thousands of synonyms but it still remains the same fucking thing. It still is a "unionship". Marriage, hand-fasting,... are synonyms for the action (and maybe with a slight difference in texts) of unionship between 2 people.

If it was just a synonym then I wouldn't complain. It's not. A gay union cannot be a marriage in most countries because it's against the law. That's the issue. All marriages are civil unions, but not all civil unions are marriages, and they should be, if you want them to be. Marriage is after all just a word.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Quote:
I'm a man of principles and my principles tell me that true equality, something I feel is of paramount importance within the realm of human rights, doesn't exist in the case of gays, even in a country like UK where we have civil unions, and especially not in USA where actual freedoms are taken away, that's without even considering the undeveloped world and their archaic laws.

True equality? Pipedreams that is. Differences will always occur and will be based on every slight detail. Be it your sexual orientation, the way you look (I.e. how you are being stereotyped), your skin color, your behavior and many other things.
You may always try to get equality officially by laws, acts,... you might even succeed with that. But because it is written and everyone has to do so that everyone WILL obey it. We are humans after all, and as you know: humans seldom obey laws who go straight against natural principles.

Doesn't mean I shouldn't strive for it. Few people get to the top echelons of society, by their very definition, it doesn't mean I shouldn't aim to get there.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Quote:
Now, you need to decide Morgan. Are you on the side of the gay rights movement, wanting true equality across the world; are you on the side of the anti-gay right fighting for the "sanctity of marriage"; or are you on the side of the apathetic crowd who don't give a shit (in which case why are you even arguing at all). You can't claim it's petty and pointless one minute, and act as though you're grievously insulted the next when I say it clearly doesn't matter to you. Either you give a shit or you don't, make up your mind.

If you've read her answers you should know her opinion and position. You are placing people in a corner in which they have to choose between a vast amount of answers. This isn't really a way to debate don't you think?
It actually is even a sign of being close-minded and failure of the ability to discuss or debate.

It's a binary situation. You either care or you don't. They are mutually exclusive all encompassing opposites. You definitely fit into one of the two, you definitely don't fit into both, so choose. It's not being closed minded to make a claim. If I said she was either pro gay rights or anti gay rights, then that would be pigeon holing, but I gave the apathy option as well. Now, I can think of any other positions to take, you're either for something, against it, or don't give a shit, if you can think of a fourth then I'll happily admit my mistake.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Quote:
As for me, I still feel gays are not treated equally. Sure the laws are the same, but the segregation is still there.

You are fighting against "the masses", and you together with another few are forming a minority. It is almost impossible for a minority to be recognized by the masses even if the laws put you on a same status. Learn to live with it. Minority stays minority.

I'm aware of that. I accept that as basic human nature. However, the government shouldn't put arbitrary legislations such as bothering to make a legal distinction between gay "civil union" and "marriage". The only purpose for doing such is as a symbolic method of prejudice. Legally they can't remove any material rights from gays such as tax breaks and medical rights, however they can appease bigots by giving them a different label as a constant reminder that same sex couples ain't quite equal. It's basically an adult way of saying "We're better than you", and it's government sanctioned. The distinction serves no other purpose, it's there solely because the religious right want to push the gay population around, and if they can't remove some material rights from them a symbolic smack in the face still makes it clear who's in control of the government. It would be like a slave being told they can live exactly like a free person, but they're still a slave technically. They have all the rights that a free person has, but they are still registered on the forms as a slave... I'm sure Martin Luther King would have approved of that. It's petty yes, but it's done out of hate and bigotry and it's offensive and spiteful. It should be changed if anything, because society should be growing beyond the need for such pathetic segregative labels. I can't help feeling humanity should be better than this.
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#27356 - 07/22/09 03:34 AM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: TornadoCreator]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3113
 Quote:
It's a binary situation. You either care or you don't. They are mutually exclusive all encompassing opposites. You definitely fit into one of the two, you definitely don't fit into both, so choose. It's not being closed minded to make a claim. If I said she was either pro gay rights or anti gay rights, then that would be pigeon holing, but I gave the apathy option as well. Now, I can think of any other positions to take, you're either for something, against it, or don't give a shit, if you can think of a fourth then I'll happily admit my mistake.

It isn't a binary situation. YOU make a binary situation out of it, together with other people who are eagering for "equal gay rights". The normal person in the street doesn't give a fuck. He or she is neither for or against it. They only make up their mind when confronted with the subject. And still then their is the pressure of society, which might differ for influencing someone being pro or against.

I simply do not care about gays, they're just people. However I sometimes have the feeling to take a huge gun and shoot the first gay who is wearing a pink shirt and really acts gay or resembles a bit like this:


Rest of your response:
Can you backup statements like these:
 Quote:
The only purpose for doing such is as a symbolic method of prejudice.

Or is it once again just a moral statement based on your own interpretations?
In that case it's non-valid to me and the whole discussion was utterly pointless. I deal in hard things, texts from authorisized persons, laws, scientifique works and "valid" critical interpretations.
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#27365 - 07/22/09 11:57 AM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Dimitri]
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
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 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
 Quote:
It's a binary situation. You either care or you don't. They are mutually exclusive all encompassing opposites. You definitely fit into one of the two, you definitely don't fit into both, so choose. It's not being closed minded to make a claim. If I said she was either pro gay rights or anti gay rights, then that would be pigeon holing, but I gave the apathy option as well. Now, I can think of any other positions to take, you're either for something, against it, or don't give a shit, if you can think of a fourth then I'll happily admit my mistake.

It isn't a binary situation. YOU make a binary situation out of it, together with other people who are eagering for "equal gay rights". The normal person in the street doesn't give a fuck. He or she is neither for or against it. They only make up their mind when confronted with the subject. And still then their is the pressure of society, which might differ for influencing someone being pro or against.

You missed my point completely. It's not binary between the pro-gay right and the anti-gay rights. It's binary between the people who give a shit, and the people who don't. Read carefully before you argue against a point.
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#27376 - 07/22/09 08:35 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: TornadoCreator]
Meq Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
It's not binary between the pro-gay right and the anti-gay rights. It's binary between the people who give a shit, and the people who don't. Read carefully before you argue against a point.

I would think that there are various degrees of concern, on a spectrum between complete apathy towards the issue towards a militant passionate crusade for (or against) gay rights on the other.

It's not a black and white (or 'binary') issue, that is to commit the fallacy of the excluded middle. Most people fall into the "gray" on this one. It's a big deal to some, completely unimportant to others, but most fall in the middle - whether pro or anti. And there may be others who are unsure whether they are pro or anti.

And another thing: Would you consider it a form of thought crime for people to not particularly consider gay rights a big deal, or at least the big deal some make it out to be?

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#27379 - 07/22/09 09:40 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Meq]
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
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No, not at all, if someone doesn't think gay rights is a big deal, fair enough. The only time it's a crime, (or at least should be a crime), is when they think it is a big deal and are against it, because then they're being prejudice and attempting to remove rights.
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#27389 - 07/22/09 10:50 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: TornadoCreator]
Meq Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
Christian fundies will be Christian fundies. The same for conservative Muslims. Good luck getting their faith criminalised, for in their eyes, giving rights to gays is to promote sin and lead people astray to the Lake of Fire; hence opposing gay rights is, in their dogmatic view, the compassionate thing to do.

Hell, even secular social conservatives are under the impression that gay rights will erode the institution of the traditional family and thus (in their eyes) lead to more harm than good.


But are these views really thought crimes, or only criminal when they affect behavior in such a way that political and social action is taken which adversely affects homosexuals?


I for one am glad to live in a country where the religious right doesn't have such a huge influence as in the States.

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#27391 - 07/22/09 11:11 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: TornadoCreator]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
The only time it's a crime, (or at least should be a crime), is when they think it is a big deal and are against it, because then they're being prejudice and attempting to remove rights.


Wait a second. Wouldn't that make your belief also a crime? You being against them for being against the gays is also prejudice and attempting to remove their right to be prejudice.
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#27402 - 07/23/09 02:05 AM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
ceruleansteel Offline
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Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
To no one in particular:

What kicks my ass is all these little fringe-people wagging their differences in everyone's faces and DEMANDING that they be accepted, loved, placed high and exalted....just so that they can feel better about their different-ness. I'll not restate what I've bitched about ad-nauseum in the tolerance thread.

To TC:

Get the fuck over it. As Morgan has pointed out, it's just a fucking word. If this sort of thing is a representation of what gay men are like, then it's a wonder to me that no one has taken a minute to eliminate your whiney asses from the food chain altogether. You are being just as petty, etc as every bitch who ever filed charges for not being admitted to the boyscouts.

Truth be told, I'm sick of everyone being such a sniveler. Grow the fuck up and get the fuck over it. IT'S A WORD.

Oversensitive and overdramatic. If I were queen of the world, I'd make you change another word just because I could and just because you're a crybaby.

What next? The sub in the relationship going to demand entrance to the women's restroom? Go find a REAL cause to crusade about.

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#27405 - 07/23/09 02:39 AM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: ceruleansteel]
Atralux Lucis Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 79
Loc: Australia
The ignorant argument started by morgan is that YES, we can all say 'get the fuck over it' but I really doubt you can tell the whole world that.
This argument isnt a practical one its one of principles. There is no practical reason they cant have a union of a sorts but the word MARRIAGE infringes on certain principles.

And as we have already defined what marriage is, most of us agree that gays shouldnt be married, because of all the reasons mentioned.
I agree with Morgan that the whole argument isnt practical, but its based on principles which if you cant appreciate dont bother having an input.

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