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#26843 - 07/05/09 05:47 PM Gay Marriage
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
 Originally Posted By: Fist (from Burka thread)
TC, you should definitely start a gay marriage thread. It has come up a few times and could use it's own thread.

Right you are. Here it is.

 Originally Posted By: Fist
Never the less, marriage is an ancient social construct and is by and large a religious construct. A secular state will have a great deal of difficulty legitimizing gay marriage without defining what exactly a marriage is. In most of the EU there will be a great deal of hand wringing over the issue as they may have to own up to the fact that one-man-one-woman marriage is a Christian construct that is protected and promoted by the State.

Very true, and at no point do I expect a church to accept gay couples, churches should not be forced to conduct gay marriage and I would have no issue with them speaking out against it. That said, registry offices are not religious building, a judge can legally conduct a wedding, as can the captain of a ship. Why can't these weddings be same sex. Hell, even some churches, some being sects of Christianity are willing to conduct a same sex wedding. So why can't that be marriage. In history, marriage is an adaption of the pagan hand-fasting which was not restricted to heterosexual couples. In the Incan tribes to take a man as your wife was a sign of wisdom and a great honour.

 Originally Posted By: Fist
It is worth noting that the Greeks had the most gay friendly culture on Earth yet even they did not even have a concept of gay 'marriage.' Why?

Cultures change. That was a long time ago, perhaps there wasn't much call for it.
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#26846 - 07/05/09 06:27 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: TornadoCreator]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Déjà vu : an individual feels as though an event has already happened or has happened in the near past.

What do you do on a local level in the real world to affect change? Sitting here rambling about the way you think things should be is just mental masturbation. You realize this eh?

You chose to fight for lolicon, child abuse, furries, burkas, and gay marriage. You are a freaky man to associate yourself with such people. Only an ignorant man will fight fights that have no special meaning to their personal lives. Sorry but I feel that you either do fight these battles to serve yourself or you think you could make things better for all. I’m no fan of politicians or armchair activists.

Get outside do something. Go hand out fliers, show support at gay rallies, all talk and no substance makes Jack nothing but a bag-o-wind.

Since you seem to have serious personal views on everything odd and socially unacceptable, I must ask what are your views on N.A.M.B.L.A.? Perhaps a thread on why man boy love is a natural act eh?

~T~
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#26850 - 07/05/09 09:21 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: ta2zz]
TornadoCreator Offline
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Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
Doesn't this forum encourage debate. I could get just as much use out of discussing things on this forum as I could handing out flyers. Here I'm with a small group of people who want to debate and are more likely to take on board what I am saying. I'm expected to join in debates and start debates and people want me to give my opinion. This is a discussion forum, it's very purpose is to give it's members a pulpit for their opinions and to allow people to read the opinions of others. On the street people don't want to hear me, I would be no better than a street preacher. I'm not one for giving opinions when it is neither asked for or I'm not in an appropriate venue/situation.

As for the things you mention.

I oppose the movement to make lolicon illegal because I feel it's limiting art. It hurts no-one, if you don't like it don't look at it. It's not about what it is, it's the principal. If it was impressionism or ballet which people wanted to make illegal I'd feel just as strongly.

I've never fought for child abuse, stop claiming I have you obsessed sicko. One has to wonder if people like yourself are keeping this up because you yourselves are paedophiles who would like someone who supports you. Sorry I don't. (It's not nice when someone makes accusations is it).

Furries... at what point did I claim I was "fighting" for them, there's nothing to fight for. Furries aren't being oppressed, misrepresented maybe, but that's about it. Did you just want something to pad the list with. Besides, I am a furry so anything that effects the group would logically effect me, of cause I'd act in the groups interests.

Burkas I'm against. Bloody stupid things, but I'm not so much fighting as watching the news unfold and smirking at it. I'm actually on the fence on this issue in all honesty.

Gay Marriage, finally the topic at had. Yes, I have an opinion. As a bisexual who has many gay friends, many of which would like to get married I feel I and my friends are not being given the rights we should be given. I'm sorry is there something wrong with this point.

Basically, I'm a person with a hobby (furry) who happens to be libertarian, it's a common enough political stance. I'm sorry if you find it freaky then you're clearly not very politically minded. I actually have opinions. As for why I would fight for things that don't effect me. The lolicon laws don't directly effect me but I don't like them on principal because I don't like the idea of thought crimes, especially as if lolicon is made illegal it's not unreasonable that furry art would be next, why not, it also doesn't hurt anyone and has fuck all to do with anyone except the artist and the person looking at it. And I've explained my position on Gay Marriage.

I have voiced an opinion on two laws that I feel are unjust. I feel moderately passionately about them and I'm willing to vote against them and discuss them in an open forum in the hope of having other people agree. This makes me freaky? ta2zz, you're easily disturbed.

As for NAMBLA, I looked them up just now. They're extremely misguided. As much as they claim they don't want to hurt kids, they want it to be consensual, etc, they know that kids can't give consent. They are using their freedom of speech to campaign for something and I wouldn't want to stop them, free speech is important, but honestly, it's a transparent attempt to legalise child molestation so long as you can manipulate the child into saying it's OK. It's wrong, it's disturbing, and it'll never be allowed by modern society anyway so quite frankly, I'm just going to ignore them.

As this was clearly an implication that I supported them let me say simply this. ta2zz, I had to look up this group, you knew who they where. I was talking about gay marriage, you brought up paedophilia. I voice an opinion, you somehow relate it back to child abuse. What the fuck is wrong with you. Either admit that you like to fondle little boys or drop the fucking subject you sick weirdo.
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#26881 - 07/06/09 03:09 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: TornadoCreator]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

I had stated, “Only an ignorant man will fight fights that have no special meaning to their personal lives.” Thank you for spending the time to clear a few things up for us all.

Some tend to cry that their words are being taken out of context while others tend to exercise selective sight.

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
Doesn't this forum encourage debate. I could get just as much use out of discussing things on this forum as I could handing out flyers. Here I'm with a small group of people who want to debate and are more likely to take on board what I am saying.

Yes this forum encourages debate yet I am as free to give my opinion as you. Honestly I only saw one gay rally I ended up at back in 98 or 90 in NY on accident. Seems the off day the flamboyant flamers were still home. I would have to say if your local gay rally is anything near as big, then handing out fliers would reach many more people than are active here. But why stop there? More on that thought in a moment.

I have always said you were a bit confused so here we go. Here you are with a small group of people, I doubt any know you personally and not many even know what you look like. Yet somehow you think that most of us are here to debate and pick up your cause? Not many here care about you or I that is a simple fact. Look TC at best here you have a group of people that like to debate that are all looking out for themselves, not you.

Now why in the fuck you would want to keep showing your throat to this bunch I guess just leaves me puzzled.

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
I'm expected to join in debates and start debates and people want me to give my opinion. This is a discussion forum, it's very purpose is to give it's members a pulpit for their opinions and to allow people to read the opinions of others.

So you understand that my opinion has as much merit as yours, based on logic and evidence of course. Then you should also understand that while you are preaching your ideals from your soapbox I am allowed to counter with my ideas as well.

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
On the street people don't want to hear me, I would be no better than a street preacher. I'm not one for giving opinions when it is neither asked for or I'm not in an appropriate venue/situation.

I would think a much better venue to apply yourself to if you want to affect change would be at gay rallies, newspapers, forums specifically for gay rights activists or your local politicians office. But again you think preaching from the 600 clubs pulpit? (your terminology) is somehow enough. So preach away it's what you do best.

I dislike preachers as well as politicians, mostly their messages of do as I say not as I do just don't fly with me.

 Originally Posted By: TornadoCreator
Basically, I'm a person with a hobby (furry) who happens to be libertarian, it's a common enough political stance. I'm sorry if you find it freaky then you're clearly not very politically minded.

Wait so is it I’m not very politically minded because I think you are freaky or because you say I think furry libertarians are?

This whole shit about marriage is so blown out of proportion I find all of it a rather silly ritual that is unnecessary in today’s world. Oh wait the tax break and the next of kinship eh?

Let's not forget those who marry or divorce to get better health insurance. This has also been a hot topic over the last few years. Health Benefits Inspire Rush to Marry, or Divorce

There are still these things known as a will, and men called lawyers and politicians. These are the men you need to sway to your cause if you expect to have any effect at all.

Until then if you want to fuck your beer buddy and call him your lover, you get no tax break under current law.

~T~

PS. I leave you with a recent study done on fruit flies in finding the gay gene. turning-homosexuality-on-and-off Someday a pill may correct what law yet cannot. ;\)

EDIT: I should add I couldn't care less what anyone does, I only care when they feel obliged to tell me about it.


Edited by ta2zz (07/06/09 03:12 PM)
Edit Reason: marked
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#26886 - 07/06/09 05:20 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: ta2zz]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
Fair enough.

You know I debate largely for fun right? I enjoy having intelligent discussions. I don't see why you feel so strongly about me voicing opinions here but I suppose if you don't enjoy debates with little chance of making any lasting change to the issue then it would seem pointless.
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#26896 - 07/07/09 01:27 AM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: TornadoCreator]
hellbent666
Unregistered



Marriage was originally designed to trap women into Bull shit relationships, spread genetic material, and keep house. I don't understand the minimal tax breaks, or the want of such breaks, or the desire to be tied to one person for the rest of your natural existence. Marriage was also NEVER designed to include gays, it was for a man and a woman. There is a Magister who's name escapes me that is gay and very vocal about how absurd it is for gays to get married. It is a womans day, not a mans.

With that being said, what possesses anyone to get married is beyond me. Over 60% of all marriages in the states end in divorce mainly due to relationship ADD. No one knows what they want anymore. I think divorce should be illegal personally regardless of sexual orientation. If you can't honor your vows or do it out of convinence I think you're retarded. Being stuck to one person for the rest of your lives is such a crazy concept! I do not understand why anyone would trap themselves like that. People change, and often in very little time.

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#26907 - 07/07/09 09:57 AM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: ]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
 Quote:
Marriage was originally designed to trap women into Bull shit relationships, spread genetic material, and keep house.

Yeah right.. marriage used for spreading genetic material? If you are limited to 1 wife? You sir, are selling bullshit..

 Quote:
I don't understand the minimal tax breaks, or the want of such breaks, or the desire to be tied to one person for the rest of your natural existence. Marriage was also NEVER designed to include gays, it was for a man and a woman.

1) The idea marriage is only for man and woman is a religious idea. Ofcourse, it is the most natural idea that a man and a women live, fuck and get old together is "natural". Before you start nagging: in history there already were some kind of "same-sex unions" it cannot be considered the same as marriage but still...
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage#History
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_same-sex_unions

2)Marriage nowadays is (and was in history) used to provide financial security. A girl alone who wasn't married was completely lost and considered as "waste" if she wasn't married. Women were regarded as "inferior", letting them marry at least gave them a chance on having a "brighter" future. (Discussable)
Ofcourse I'm only talking about marriage from around these parts of the world. The position man/women might and can differ from envirronement to envirronement.

 Quote:
I think divorce should be illegal personally regardless of sexual orientation.

And why should it be illegal? Imagine you have a wife, beautifull, sexy.. she is dating another guy/girl and meanwhile leeches you for having a good time with him/her while YOU are being leeched out and handled as trash. Since divorcing is illegal you can't cut the money faucet and you have to pay her because otherwise you are being sued for not taking responsibility and for "abuse".


Edited by Dimitri (07/07/09 10:23 AM)
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#26908 - 07/07/09 10:15 AM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: ]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Ah, now we are getting somewhere. Clearly we will have to use the Socratic Method here.

Firstly, we need to define terms. Just what is a marriage? Where did the concept come from? Why does it endure today and does/did it have a purpose in society. Just what could that purpose be, and is it relevant today?

 Quote:

Marriage was originally designed to trap women into Bull shit relationships, spread genetic material, and keep house.


Was it now? When did societies (around the globe) begin practicing marriage? In Viking culture the woman owned all the land and by all accounts were as tough as the men and EQUAL under Viking law. They kept home and hearth in order while the men went out and hunted for booty - a division of labor if you will. In most of the barbarian cultures of Europe women were equal to men. Ever hear of Boadicea? In the West, this bare-foot-and-pregnant model is product of the Roman Church.

 Quote:
Over 60% of all marriages in the states end in divorce mainly due to relationship ADD. No one knows what they want anymore.


And just why is that? What could be the reason?

How about because the 'women's movement' has told women that they don't need a man. Women have stopped taking care of their men and, as no small consequence, men have stopped taking care of their women. Everyone has stopped taking care of their children. Children are shuttled off to some sort institutional setting to be indoctrinated as obedient serfs. Or, they are simply left to their own devices to cruise the vast wasteland of TV, the internet and FPS video games.

Govt for it's part has run a program for the last 40 year custom tailored to destroy families. Govt, in large part, has replaced the man as the provider. A woman with children and no man has access to a wide array of govt programs. In fact, should a struggling couple try to stay together the State will actually take away their public assistance.

Society in general has promoted this nonsensical concept of the 'Super Mom.' Where woman spend the vast majority of their time promoting their career and a very small amount of time tending to their husband and family. Is it any wonder that most marriages end in divorce?

But, just what is this marriage thing we keep talking about anyway?
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#26914 - 07/07/09 03:04 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Fist]
hellbent666
Unregistered



LOL! Do you want websters definition of marriage, or are we going to go around in circles like Socrates did, getting nowhere?
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#26915 - 07/07/09 03:08 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: ]
hellbent666
Unregistered



one more thing...If you're going to make vows in front of your friends and family to honor and love your mate FOREVER, you need to stay true to your convictions and do what you say you're gonna do. Divorce for most people is just an easy way out, it should never be easy. If people were punished for divorcing they probably wouldn't even get married in the first place. It's an out-dated, worthless institution regardless of sexual orientation. It's beyond me why anyone would submit to such a social contract
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#26919 - 07/07/09 04:35 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: ]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
 Originally Posted By: hellbent666
LOL! Do you want websters definition of marriage, or are we going to go around in circles like Socrates did, getting nowhere?


Yes, go ahead provide a definition because you know what the definition means... fuck all.

I don't care if your dictionary claims marriage is between a man and a woman, it's a new thing anyway, it won't say that in most dictionaries 20 years ago, because this "change the dictionary" thing that America does has only happened recently. Look up "Atheist", apparently it's not "Someone who asserts the dogma that there is no God". Fuck the Americans, it's English, not American, want your own language make one up yourselves, stop pissing on ours to further political goals.

As for marriage. If the definition is the only thing stopping it, guess what, we can bloody well change it. The language is fluid, it changes constantly. Hence why words like 'verily' are not used today, and why the word 'cool' officially means "Excellent, First-Rate, Satisfactory, Total Of, Full", this was originally slang, now it's not as it's a common use of the word that has traversed generations and subcultures. Marriage means "two people becoming each others partners, likely lovers, and wanting to be considered family both emotionally and legally", whether the dictionary agrees or not. I know this because if a gay couple said "We're getting married", everyone would know what they meant, even different generations and cultures. Not liking it being called marriage does not stop it being marriage, it still is, even if the form says "Civil Union" or "Civil Partnership".
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#26920 - 07/07/09 04:40 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: ]
TornadoCreator Offline
member


Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 586
Loc: No Fixed Address
 Originally Posted By: hellbent666
one more thing...If you're going to make vows in front of your friends and family to honor and love your mate FOREVER, you need to stay true to your convictions and do what you say you're gonna do. Divorce for most people is just an easy way out, it should never be easy. If people were punished for divorcing they probably wouldn't even get married in the first place. It's an out-dated, worthless institution regardless of sexual orientation. It's beyond me why anyone would submit to such a social contract


Does you not understanding why people would want to mean they shouldn't be allowed to do it. I don't understand why people would want to watch NASCAR, that shit sucks, does that mean they shouldn't be allowed to do it.

Just because you don't get it doesn't mean someone should loose their right to enter any legal contract they wish with who they wish, marriage is simple that.
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#26921 - 07/07/09 04:40 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: ]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Wow, you've obviously never been married, and certainly you've never been through a divorce. I have yet to meet a man who has not been put through the ringer emotionally and financially when he and his wife decide to get divorced. Mountains of paperwork, legal issues, custody battles, name changes, moving, property settlements, etc. Even with a prenup it's a bitch. "Deciding" to get a divorce may be easy, the actual process is anything but.
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#26922 - 07/07/09 04:44 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: ]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
lol, we agree on something hellbent:

"If you're going to make vows in front of your friends and family to honor and love your mate FOREVER, you need to stay true to your convictions and do what you say you're gonna do. Divorce for most people is just an easy way out."

That's why you have to be sure of what the hell you are doing. It's funny, my grandmother told me always see a man drunk before you consider marrying him, so you know what you are in for.

Divorce has become easy, people go through so many "starter marriages" because of it. Yet on the other hand, it is so necessary. Divorce is necessary sometimes, in the cases of abuse, abandonment, and attempted murder.

People do marry for love, and those marriages may last for years. It's just a matter of working on it and not giving up. My great grandparents were married over 60 years, and Jake is going on 40 years. I think its possible for it to work, if you really want it to.

I'm just of the opinion that everyone should have the right to be unhappily married.

Morgan
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#26923 - 07/07/09 05:52 PM Re: Gay Marriage [Re: Morgan]
hellbent666
Unregistered



Hey, TC. Most words have specific meanings, and there is nothing you can do to change that! You could write your own dictionary and pervert words if you wanted, but in AMERICA, marriage means primarily ONE specific thing. Your terminology may mean multiples of things, I have no idea. Specific words mean specific things like duck fucking means a water bird with a bill! I didn't make up the word! Yell at webster for that and I don't reclaim offensive words either, although it is funny to call my white friends cracka! LOL! Instead of relying on a word that has a specific meaning, join 2 words like you already did, civil-union. Why you would advocate that is like I said beyond me.

Morgan, I'm glad we finally agree on something ;\)

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