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#26942 - 07/08/09 02:22 PM role models
Emily Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/20/09
Posts: 23
Loc: north wales, U.K
All these role models are useless...paris hilton, jordan (katie price), pussy cat dolls ect. why do we need these sluts? Its putting pressure on woman who want to be a singer or a dancer,ect. Its not really fair on women, men can be as ugly as anything but women, they have to be thin, pretty ect.

what i want to know is what are your thoughts?
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when theres a will, theres five hundred relatives

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#26946 - 07/08/09 02:40 PM Re: role models [Re: Emily]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
A role model is a personal choice, chances are rare that my role models are the same as yours.

However, these women are idolized, which is another thing altogether. This is due to a combination of factors: Jealousy and the Media (having nothing better to do than get crotch shots of hussies getting out of limos). The two are constantly circling each other. People who are ugly or have shitty lives are jealous of those with money, talent and looks. The media are at fault in both perpetuating these stereotypes and flooding our everyday lives with the minutae of these "false gods". If we didn't have the high-roller lifestyle ideal shoved down our throats at every opportunity, we might have more appreciation for what we already have.
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Nothing is sacred.

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#26948 - 07/08/09 03:55 PM Re: role models [Re: Nemesis]
hellbent666
Unregistered



Men CANNOT be ugly. There is just as much pressure on men to be ripped with six packs and big arms as there is pressure for women to be thin and hot. If a man is unappealing in the face can still lift weights to try to build a better body, but I think your ugly comment is perpetuated by women. I've met many women that will date a short chubby hairy dude as long as he can spit game and had confidence.

Celebrities should never be used as role models. we should look to our friends and family first.

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#26950 - 07/08/09 04:19 PM Re: role models [Re: ]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
What I was addressing with my "ugly" comment is that in the idolization of a particular ideal of beauty, average people are "made" to feel ugly. This applies to both sexes, as I am fully aware of the pressure that men are under.

A side-effect of idolization and stereotyping is the cosmetic industry, which is in turn heavily endorsed by celebs themselves.

Got zits? Use Proactiv! Jessica Simpson uses it!

Or just cruise the mag rack at the store, and look at the teen section: Nothing but baby-faced young men (whose sole claims to fame tend to be born at either WB or Nickelodeon) and articles about how to apply make-up grace the covers.
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Nothing is sacred.

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#26951 - 07/08/09 05:09 PM Re: role models [Re: Nemesis]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
The only pressure men are under is actually that which they accept. The only pressure women are under is actually that which they accept.

If you allow the whims of fashion or culture to define you, you are undefined. You are a willing pawn in the control element that you would claim is oppressing you. If you accept the parameters of the dictates of some fashionista as binding on your life, subject to his or her interpretation of what is beautiful, or what is sexy, or what is worthy... give up. You've already lost the battle for your "soul."

I've known people of all shapes and sizes who are beautiful in their own right, not because they have followed some formulaic vision of what "must be" to be perfect. Perfection in nature is an abnormal state. That's why we prize it so highly when we see it. The perfect rose, the perfect man, the perfect woman are all simply visual representations of a consensus of opinion, nothing more.

A Ming vase and a "supermodel" have a couple of things in common. First, they're rare. There are very few of them around and thereby, they gain their value. Simply an application of the laws of supply and demand to art and humanity. But in today's media age we get the feeling (unrealistic and unsubstantiated by fact) that the beauty we see in supermodels is somehow a standard. This is actually so disproportionately wrong, statistically, that people overlook it simply because they are being brainwashed by the print and electronic media. The people you see in TV and print ads are NOT average or representative of the world at large. They are there for one reason and one reason only... to make the product look good.

Role models? Hardly. How many supermodels or Pussycat Dolls have ever done anything that really matters in the world? I suppose window dressing has its place, but would you consider your heart surgeon less valuable simply because he's a little disheveled and couldn't make the cut at GQ? How about the woman who might be an astrophysicist with glasses and thick body? Are her contributions to science outdone by a bleached blonde who can swivel her hips and moan, "I wanna be sexy?"

The lyrics, "Free your mind and the rest will follow," have meaning. You buy into the hype of media and all you have done is sell yourself short to accommodate the short-sightedness of others. Given the choice of a voluptuous, beautiful, blonde airhead and an average, intelligent and sexually practical woman, I'll take the latter over the former, every time. Given the choice between a waxed-chested, ab ripped, posing pretty boy and a man with a body that suits his lifestyle and his profession, maybe with a few extra pounds, but with a genuine personality, a sense of humor and the ability to not take himself so seriously... well, I have no driving urge to talk to a guy about skin toners and Calvin Klein.

And if the way I look offends. Tough luck.
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Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#26953 - 07/08/09 05:38 PM Re: role models [Re: Jake999]
hellbent666
Unregistered



You're definitely non-offensive Jake, and honestly I would rather shut up and listen to you as you would more than likely have more experience in the matter and in the life arena than most on this forum. I agree that holding yourself to an almost unattainable standard of beauty is rather foolish, but modeling yourself around other physical attributes is not bad thing. I aspire to have a well defined muscular physique, but I'm not shallow. Often times it's people's first assumption that said body builder is suffering from some sort of complex or he is a shallow meat head. There is nothing wrong with trying to look as best as humanly possible! If that means going on a strict diet to look good in a tank top, so be it! Not only will there be health benefits but also social benefits. 1 out of 4 americans are over weight, so holding yourself to a skinnier standard is not a bad thing unless you are a weirdo and take things to extremes like anorexia or bullemia.

If we are to call ourselves Satanists, or to be of a Satanic mind, then we need to respect, cherish, and nurture this ONE body and ONE stab at life we get. You might as well commit suicide if you have no concern of whether or not you're healthy and functional. Maybe big useless muscle tissue like mine is desirable, but honestly all that matters is that you're healthy, and healthy implies a good well rounded diet, exercise, and shapely figure. Do what thou wilt, but taking pride in your physique is not a bad thing if done properly.

I must agree with you that female musicians for the most part aren't worthy of being role models. If I ever need a good role model I look at my mom, or my dad. The Anima and The Animus of everyone's life. Now this is assuming that your parents are of high caliber ;\) The movers and shakers of life have always been scientists, artists, philosophers, sometimes entertainers, psychologists, etc... The only thing Paris Hilton pioneered is the anxiety get out of jail free card. She's a pussy that can't do her time.

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#26955 - 07/08/09 06:40 PM Re: role models [Re: ]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
There is nothing wrong with wanting to look your best or wanting to be healthy. The problem that I see with all this is they way the media tries to beat it into our collective heads that "this is the only way to look." As if you don't measure up to these standards you are a worthless individual who will never find love or success. It is that line of thinking that leads to conditions such as anorexia or bulemia.

As Jake said; the only pressure you are under is the pressure you allow yourself to be under. Aside from that there is really nothing to say other than that beauty truly is in the eye of the beholder.

Was going to post this in the video section as this topic reminded me of it, but the embedding code was removed so I will post the link instead: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adjNEcbzOOA


Edited by 6Satan6Archist6 (07/08/09 06:43 PM)
Edit Reason: added video link
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No gods. No masters.

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#26964 - 07/08/09 11:43 PM Re: role models [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Jester Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 62
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
The media is the same as a religion. They like to impose a certain set of ideals (that they themselves tend to break) to control and herd the masses. Mass media is the religious movement of the 20th and 21st century. Look at the 50's and the idea of the "American Dream."

When it comes to "fashion" and what people should look like and wear one of the biggest culprits is that stupid show, "What Not To Wear" I hate that with a passion. Some people like to express themselves through what they wear. What right do these two tards have to dictate what is "acceptable" to wear.

One expression comes to mind, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it." Be the horse, don't drink the water, it's full of bullshit.
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"...And I thought my jokes were bad."

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#26966 - 07/08/09 11:44 PM Re: role models [Re: ]
Draculesti Offline
Impaler
member


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 325
Loc: Rockville, Maryland
 Quote:
I must agree with you that female musicians for the most part aren't worthy of being role models.


You really must qualify this statement, as it is so erroneous in this form, not to mention that no one said any such thing in so many words. The Pussycat Dolls are NOT musicians. They are a product, a commodity; they can dance and move their lips to what is undoubtedly prerecorded "singing." To call Britney Spears, Jessica Simpson, or any of these other pop "tarts" (pun intended) musicians is an insult to those who can actually lay claim to the title. While I do not like country, I must admit that the likes of Taylor Swift may be called musician; she plays an instrument, can sing, and writes her own songs. She is much more appropriate as a role model, the point being that female musicians can be worthy of being role models.

Unfortunately, women have played a relatively minor role in music history, at least in art music. The famous castrati (boys who were castrated at a young age before their voices changed so that they could retain the beautiful singing voices which they possessed) of the 17th and 18th centuries were, more or less, created for the purpose of excluding women from singing, at least in a public venue such as in a church choir, in opera, etc. Admittedly, boys' voices are generally better than girls' (which is why the Vienna Boys' Choir are gender exclusive and kick the boys out when their voices change). It was not really until the mid- to late-18th century that women started really taking a larger role in music, mostly in opera. Relatively few were actually composers; the first woman composer of repute of which I am aware is Hildegard von Bingen (ca. 1098-1179), an abbess who composed, among other things, what is known as liturgical drama. Then, of course, there is Clara Schumann (1819-1896), widow of composer/pianist Robert Schumann, who had a 61-year concert career. As the years progressed, women musicians became more prevalent, from composer Amy Beach, to the renowned Parisian teacher Nadia Boulanger, to composer Ellen Taffe Zwilich, and the many great women musicians out there deserving of role model status (many of whom are beautiful in their own right). Still, composing music does not seem to be seen as a "womanly" pursuit (except, perhaps, in the pop music category). I would like to see more women composers (as opposed to performers) than there seem to be.

So, to sum up, my rant has served, I hope, two purposes: One, to show the original poster that there are qualities in individuals to be admired that go beyond the skin-deep illusion of outward beauty and, Two, to show Hellbent that he must be more careful with his words, especially if he is to use such broad general statements as the one to which I have replied. ;\)
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The Holy Trinity: Me, Myself, and I.

Homo Homini Lupus

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#26969 - 07/09/09 02:02 AM Re: role models [Re: Draculesti]
hellbent666
Unregistered



Wow! Now this is what I'm talking about! What to reply on is my next decision...hmmm....

I honestly never had the luxury of having a gender history lesson while on the subject of music, but a female composer I could definitely jive with. I'm not a huge fan of contemporary female music/musicicans/artists or whatever the fuck you want to call them. There is a method to my misogyny. My example would be "Men are like shoes." I don't know who sings it but she is definitely not worthy of speaking her name. And this shit my ex made me listen to with the chorus that said, "Give me a reason to love you." This further illustrates our attention span in the west when one needs further reasons after the couple is ALREADY together for her to love him successfully. So I guess if I don't have to hear them sing and just listened to a composition I would be okay with it. Things I could hear a woman say all day would be romantic sweet nothings in a foreign language, no idea what the hell you're saying but it sounds nice! LOL!

The reason I don't like female music, I take that back, Hanzel Und Gretyl, Kittie, and Flyleaf are okay, is because it propagates a cycle of materialism and man-hatred, which are not ideals women should be aspiring to. And when I call myself a misogynist I really just mean wishy washy sluts in the states because there are some countries that still instill gender roles in women and they actually are very caring and compassionate wives/companions. Comparing men to inanimate objects such as shoes is a blatant slap in the face to any decent, respectable man. Feminism is to blame for this. This is one topic at least me and fist can relate to in some way.

Not saying that male musicians are any more respectable either. Most men as with most women are not worthy of respect or admiration, and they typically show you why in their daily lives. I do not respect women that treat their bodies as objects and I do not respect men that play "golf" with women's assholes. Korn was notorious for this blatant disregard for women. So on the topic of music I really only respect a small handful of people in the industry. Your actions, not your words, speak volumes about someones character and how they treat people around them. Why ANY woman with a healthy respect for men would listen to such garbage is beyond me. Our society is slowly starting to emasculate men to cater to women. It's bull shit! I won't even speak their names if they are partially responsible for this kind of behavior. Talent is one thing, but unless they have the social etiquette to back it up I don't listen to it.

Respect should be given to such individuals if they are worthy of it. In a slowly approaching amoral society, anything goes, nothing is sacred. Pretty sad state of america if you ask me. Role models are like geniuses, making up less than 1% of the population.

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#26975 - 07/09/09 05:22 AM Re: role models [Re: Emily]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3139
A role model is still someone you can relate to in a certain branch you want to be specialised in.
Draculesti pointed this already out nicely in his reply.

As also mentioned before, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. A women doesn't need to match the standards the fashion industry is trying to sell. Same goes for men, altough less clear, men also have to match certain standards by the fashion industry so they also aren't considered "fashion outlaws".

Most people want to match the beauty standards so they can feel "special", better or more pretty then the rest of the world.
I can't say looking pretty isn't important, some level of outward appearance is neccesary to succeed in bussiness, sex and many other things. Caracter is almost always a secondary factor in judging people.
To put it short: I wouldn't shag a whale even though she is fun to talk with.

I have to add that the girls you mentioned indeed are nothing more then cheap sluts with money, they give information away in the form of how they use their body to sell themselves. They use and "study" the behaviour of the men on certain parts of their body. It is a common mistake by women to try to look as the models instead of studying their body and attract the attention of others to the best part they have to offer. Be it their breasts, bums, lips, eyes... With a little aid of make-up, corsets, blouses, jeans and other helping materials any women can let a man focus on their best body aspect. (This under the condition of the mans personal taste and style... Never go fishing for trout in the open sea where you can only get salmon).

A role model is to be learned from and not to be imitated.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#26977 - 07/09/09 05:55 AM Re: role models [Re: Emily]
god.over.djinn Offline
pledge


Registered: 06/23/09
Posts: 75
Loc: Melbourne
 Originally Posted By: Emily
All these role models are useless...paris hilton, jordan (katie price), pussy cat dolls ect. why do we need these sluts? Its putting pressure on woman who want to be a singer or a dancer,ect. Its not really fair on women, men can be as ugly as anything but women, they have to be thin, pretty ect.

what i want to know is what are your thoughts?


Hi Emily,

It sounds like you are indulging in the sins of envy and greed. And maybe some anger? Good start! But perhaps you need to prescribe yourself a bit more pride. "Not really fair on women"? Please.

Also, before worrying about how men have it so good, are you saying that you have no standards regarding men? Because if you do have any standards, then these are the standards that men in your life will feel pressure from. Perhaps you will expect your dude to be adventurous and successful? Those are qualities that many women do seem to appreciate. If so, then you are placing pressure on men to have those traits. I mean, I don't have anything against you applying that pressure if you feel like it, but don't get all hypocritical about it.

And one more thing, perhaps a little reflection on what the term "role model" actually means. A model for a role. Someone you hope to learn something from. Perhaps some people regard the skanks you mentioned as role models, but I don't. Same for "sports heroes" and other popular personalities. They are only there for your entertainment. Flip them some spare change if you like their stuff, or walk the other way, just as you would the busker on the street - because that is all they are.

G.O.D.
_________________________
SATAN, a recursive acronym invented by GOD: "SATAN: Advocating The Adversarial Nihilist"

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#26985 - 07/09/09 04:43 PM Re: role models [Re: god.over.djinn]
Emily Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/20/09
Posts: 23
Loc: north wales, U.K
dont get me wrong all the stuff that you all have said is very truthful and i agree with most of them, and most musicains and many other famous people dont deserve any of it. Like (for example) amy lee from evenescece (sorry if i didnt spell it right) said once "it's too hard to be a millionaire" well it's also too hard not to be.Yes, it takes them all alot to get where they are today.

Seeing a (roughly) around 5year old girl wearing a tank top sort of thing that says "future pornstar" on it abit disturbing. dont you? yea, i know its her (or probally her parents) choice...but do you see where im getting with this?

and i know i didnt put enough information about this subject ect. so i'll keep that in my mind for the future.
_________________________
when theres a will, theres five hundred relatives

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#27004 - 07/10/09 06:33 AM Re: role models [Re: Emily]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
I could say Britney Spears doesn't deserve all the money she has made from her "music", but she has most certainly earned it. That being said, one could also argue that since she has worked to earn it, she most certainly deserves it regardless of how I feel about her methods.

It is very easy to say that rich people complain too much. Afterall, having all that money automatically means that life will be a cake-walk, right? I too have been guilty of making fun of celebrities who complain about "the cost of fame" because it is ultimately the life style they have chosen to pursue. Bear in mind that I am not speaking of celebrity children, while they are often under stress of their own it is often the parents who have chosen that life style for them.

It is indeed very easy for one to postulate how much easier and better their life would be if they were rich, but, as with many things, one can only cross that bridge if and when they came to it.

Just think about how much stress the average person is under. Pressure from parents, co-workers, bosses, teachers, peers etc. All expecting you to live up to certain expectations and ideals. Now add onto that problem of mainting your fortune. And instead of it simply being a select group of people who are "counting on you" and scrutinizing every move you make, it is entire countries of people.

Imagine every mistake you make and every pound you gain is plastered on the faces of magazines talked about on tv shows and around water coolers the world over. Imagine not being able to simple things like going to a store for a gallon of milk or dropping your kids off at school without being hounded by people. People who want to talk, and want autographs or pictures, all wanting their own little taste of fame. Even if that fame is second hand and only for a few fleeting seconds.

Through all of that you are expected to keep a smile on your face and be the person everyone expects you to be. Should you have a very human emotion such as anger or frustration you could very well be seen as someone who is "unfriendly" or a "dick" which could spell the end of your career.

Once you start to consider all those things, a quiet life with a decent job doesn't seem so bad, even if you can't afford that diamond studded fly swatter that you have always wanted.

While not being a millionaire can be hard at times, it as the same time very easy to not be a millionaire. Hell every day I wake up I am not a millionaire and I don't even have to try. \:D
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#27029 - 07/11/09 10:28 PM Re: role models [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
hellbent666
Unregistered



to answer your question emily, scum raises scum, more often than not. There are exceptions to every rule, but for the most part you can't have high hopes for humanity when the world is fixated on BS. We can have hope that you will raise your kids properly though. That in itself should be a comfort.
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