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#26997 - 07/10/09 02:00 AM Eugenics
Jester Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 62
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I did a search and couldn't find any threads about eugenics, so I thought I would start one.

This definitely can be considered a "hot button" issue because it can open a can worms. I like pushing buttons though. Anyway, let me begin...

When people hear the word Eugenics the first thing that probably comes to mind is Hitler. Hitler was for eugenics because of his ideas about a "perfect race" but let us take a
look at what eugenics is.

Eugenics
"the study of or belief in the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population, esp. by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics) or encouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits (positive eugenics). " from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/eugenics

Eugenics is a double edged sword. Most people want to improve the human race. We want to be stronger, live longer and be healthier. We want a better standard of living. Does improving the human race mean trimming the fat? Preventing what is perceived as weak to ever exist in the first place? When the word eugenics is used the first thing to pop into mind is the "negative eugenics" definition above. "discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits" Is it inhumane to prevent those with a pre-dispositioned genetic defect? Hitler would say yes, what would you say? I am on the fence about this to be honest. I do agree with the "positive eugenics." If we can find a way to eliminate disease, increase our life span, our strength (mind and body), why not? A lot of people say it's wrong to "play god" or that it's not "god's will." I counter them with the argument, we created god, therefor we determine god's will.

My thoughts are a little bit scattered, hope what I present is clear. My hope is to spark a debate about Eugenics. What are your thoughts? Agree with the idea? Disagree? Or do you think that if mankind is able to perfect itself and become something like a "superman" would life be boring?
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#26998 - 07/10/09 02:14 AM Re: Eugenics [Re: Jester]
hellbent666
Unregistered



I'm no genetics expert, biologist, or any kind of scientist but I do have a rudimentary knowledge of dominant and recessive genes. From what I understand is blonde hair and blue eyes is a recessive gene, thus proving hitlers grandiose master race theory wrong. We can also view directly that retards don't always produce retarded offspring, midgets don't always produce midgets, and certain mental disabilities aren't hereditary either. Germans in that time period and some that are still there have AMAZING genetics! If only I could bulk up like that!

You would have to understand genetics on a very complicated scale in order to properly decide whether or not your genetic material will advance or hinder future generations. If I had bad genes I would get fixed, but I don't and in fact I have wonderful genes short of my eye sight and I would pass them on to my babies along with some help from an equally remarkable woman.

If I'm not mistaken, isn't sicle cell a genetic predisposition of blacks, and didn't we some how genetically conquer the plague? This is a very interesting subject and one that is covered in a certain someone's book...we all know who I'm talking about, I hope ;\)

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#26999 - 07/10/09 02:35 AM Re: Eugenics [Re: ]
Jester Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 62
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I'm more concerned with the theory of it all. The philosophical/ethical argument over eugenics. I've developed an interest in Transhumanism. The ability to mix flesh with technology, I was talking with a friend about it the other day and it got me thinking about eugenics as well. If by some chance I decided to have kids (or if the condom broke haha) I would want my child to have good genes, I know I have good genes. I have good eye sight, no serious genetic defects etc. I think there is nothing wrong with trying to improve future generations through science. I mean, as a satanist, someone who loves life, why not try to make it better?
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#27001 - 07/10/09 05:29 AM Re: Eugenics [Re: Jester]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
I must admit that my views on eugenics were very much colored by my educational indoctrination with much of the focus placed upon "Hitler's eugenics."

Once I was able to step outside my comfort zone and look at it more objectively, I was able to see it in a new light. I no longer view eugenics as the "Nazi world domination plan" that I once viewed it as. Instead I see the next step in human evolution and a path to a better future. One which could see an end to things like autism, down syndrome, diabetese etc.

There is a problem that many people have with "playing God", but if I were to have children of my own I would want the best for them. If modern science were able to develop a way to curb the likliness, or totally wipe out the possibility of, a debilitating condition or abnormality, I would fully take advantage of it.

I suppose I would still differ from many propents of eugenics in that I feel this is a choice that should be left up to parents. Much like circumcision, while being a common practice and healthier for a baby than the lack thereof, is a choice left up to the parents and not state mandated.

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#27003 - 07/10/09 06:11 AM Re: Eugenics [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Jester Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 62
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I agree I think it should be a choice. I think it should be a choice that doesn't cost an arm or a leg (pun intended) for the parents. I mean, if someone wants a "natural" birth they should have the right to choose that as well. Honestly though, if you could prevent your child from being born with any abnormalities or hereditary medical conditions why the hell would you choose not to?
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#27007 - 07/10/09 09:44 AM Re: Eugenics [Re: Jester]
Fist Moderator Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
I could have sworn that there are several posts where Eugenics were covered. I tried to search my own posts to find them but I had no luck either.

Never the less, I will cover a few things that I think are important to the topic.

Firstly, most people who talk about Eugenics have NO FUCKING IDEA of what they think they are talking about. Before anyone continues on this topic, please read Raymond B. Cattel "Beyondism: Religion from Science." This is most likely the definitive work on what Eugenics actually is. It is about 333 pages of high level reading so I am sure your average moron who posts in here will have GREAT DIFFICULTY working their way through it. It is not for the White Light Secular Humanists amongst us.

Never the less, after reading Cattell, should one like to do any further study of this topic I would recommend the following:

"The Bell Curve" Richard J. Herrnstein, Charles Murray

http://www.extropy.org
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#27008 - 07/10/09 12:32 PM Re: Eugenics [Re: Fist]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Eugenics has indeed been discussed in various threads over the last year or more. When you do a keyword query here, and you know the thread is pretty old, be sure to change your display results from the default "Newer than one week" to "Newer than one month/year".

Here are some threads that I found which pertain to eugenics, although in some of these you might have to wade through some thick bullshit to find useful information ;).

Idiots who breed.
Eugenics, idealism and the devil
Designer babies
More eugenics please.
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