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#29083 - 08/31/09 08:29 PM Re: Thier delusion seems to work... [Re: Volvagia]
Zorg Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/30/09
Posts: 44
Loc: A Galaxy Far, Far Away
 Originally Posted By: Volvagia
Rather than blame religion, because that's a cop out, I blame people. As religion is an invention of people.


I agree.
Every now and then, I hear someone say that religion is the cause of wars. It's not religion (in my opinion), it's human nature. Religion is just a convenient excuse.

I also agree with the above post that states religion absolves people of a sense of responsibility for their lives. Those who know me know that, for me, responsibility is the hallmark of what it is to be a Satanist. For that reason alone, be it "medicine", delusion or just intellectual laziness...I have no love for white light religions.
_________________________
"The average person thinks he isn’t" Father Lorenzoni

"Plato was a bore."
Friedrich Nietzsche

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#29109 - 09/01/09 07:10 AM Re: Thier delusion seems to work... [Re: Volvagia]
Woland Moderator Offline
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active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 763
Loc: Oslo, Norway
 Originally Posted By: Volvagia
Rather than blame religion, because that's a cop out, I blame people. As religion is an invention of people.


I feel the need to comment on this statement.

If anything is to be achieved one has to analyze the construct per se.
The actual constructor(s), or users of the construction, is in my opinion a blind alley.

What does xianity (and similar religions) have, that makes it such a dangerous construct in the first place?

The monotheistic religions has, during their relatively short lifespan, spread like a contagious disease, a plague if you will.
The main issue might be the whole "God is good, man is evil" concept, embracing the built in human need to feel bad about themselves.

When it goes bad, it goes really bad.
Blaming "religion" is not a cop out.
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Woland

Contra Mundum!

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#29113 - 09/01/09 10:44 AM Re: Thier delusion seems to work... [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel
Hence: Religion is dumb. Religious people are dumb. Religious people can blame themselves. The memeplex of religion was created by someone, and as such can definitely be debunked as the hogwash it is. I'm not talking about proving a negative here, but rather pointing out all the internal inconsistencies and intellectual B.S. washing around that people seem completely oblivious about.


I don't think religious people are necessarily dumb. There are a lot of religious people out there that are smarter than me, they're just vulnerable at some intellectual levels. Of course, this vulnerability is partly to blame upon them, partly upon their cultural environment. And, some are just dumb too; if you're born a moron, you'll die a moron.

I prefer to look at a meme as a virus in action. If your intellectual immune system is good, it will kill the meme but if it is weak towards a specific type of meme, you are pretty much fucked. The only cure is to strengthen your immune system, but specific memes trigger behavior that limits that option. Memes, like a virus, don't really care about their carrier; their only purpose is replication. So if they're hostile or friendly to the recipient is of little matter.

It also shows the potential that memetics has. Memes can be constructed and if done well, those that are submitted to them are pretty much fucked, even if they will never realize it themselves.

D.

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#29115 - 09/01/09 11:02 AM Re: Thier delusion seems to work... [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3119
Everyone needs a religion, or at least something to believe in.

I need yet to encounter someone who hadn't some kind of religion or at least ideas derived from it. Religion might have it's positive points, but the negative aspects will always look better in the eyes of the opposer. Every religion thinks it is helding "the truth", so is every person thinking so.

Religion is just what it is, believing something; be it science, god, Set, Satan, logic, flying spaghetti monster,...
It only get's disturbing when people are over-convinced in what they see as the truth, letting their eyes close slowly, ignoring other aspects which might disapprove their actions and ideas.

While no one likes critics, they should be given towards others and be applied to yourself also. The short quote in Wolands signature says it all.

A man's curiosity shouldn't and will not be stopped as long as the brain is not being numbed down with simple toys and brain-killing food as television. Many write and talk about religion, even comment it, but very few ever dared to take a step forward and start living and feeling it.

A scientist investigating a runner will only see from his point of view that there is a movement, made by muscle contractions, and maybe some few other facts, but he will not experience the actual emotions and feelings the investigated person underwent.
Same is for religion, a person doesn't know what he/she is talking about untill the experience.

It is easy to call some religions "delusional" just based on what other said, but it is harder to say so when experiencing.
The aspect "xeper" is a keyword when discussing religion. Yes, I can come up with facts and try to take the place of a Christian with current biblical knowledge, yet I will fail. Just for the mere reason I can't experience or become one by talking. I can only act and pose as such, yet will miss that little spark of religion to make me a true believer.

This spark will be called "emotional feeling", "black flame", "essence",.... It is just somehting which cannot be described and makes a religionist a true believer.
It is the reason why a wise man will not try to attempt to convert a person with logic and reason, stating facts and explaining logic is one thing; actual feeling and living something another. This because humans live on pulses and feelings and not on words. It is the reason why people like to cross tabboo's, they want to experience the "why" or "why not".
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Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#29176 - 09/02/09 06:21 PM Re: Thier delusion seems to work... [Re: Woland]
Volvagia Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/30/09
Posts: 11
 Originally Posted By: Woland
 Originally Posted By: Volvagia
Rather than blame religion, because that's a cop out, I blame people. As religion is an invention of people.


I feel the need to comment on this statement.

If anything is to be achieved one has to analyze the construct per se.
The actual constructor(s), or users of the construction, is in my opinion a blind alley.

What does xianity (and similar religions) have, that makes it such a dangerous construct in the first place?

The monotheistic religions has, during their relatively short lifespan, spread like a contagious disease, a plague if you will.
The main issue might be the whole "God is good, man is evil" concept, embracing the built in human need to feel bad about themselves.

When it goes bad, it goes really bad.
Blaming "religion" is not a cop out.




Religion doesn't exist with out people. I never implied "god is good, people are bad." God is a construct of men correct? Blaming religion does absolutely nothing. People made religion, they made concepts and ideas about gods. All the Christian manuscripts, texts, translations of the bible, the church etc are built by people.

There is also the fact that Christians use the same excuse, blaming religion, god, or the devil for their actions. That's a cop out. Humans are to blame for many of the bad things in the world and they cannot seem to accept responsibility. Much of the stuff done "in the name of" wasn't even done in the name of religion. It was said as such as an excuse. The Spanish conquest of Mexico? It takes no genius to figure out that has less to do with Christianity and more to do with the Spaniards wanting gold. The witch burnings had more socio-political motives than religious.. and so forth. Blaming religion is the same as Christians shouting "the devil made me do it!".

Its like when people try to talk about how during ancient pagan times or just paganism there was no killing in the name of religion or gods. That could not be further from the truth! The Aztecs certainly killed people in the name of their gods, even in war. The Japanese committed the Nanking Massacre in the name of Shintoism and racial superiority. The thuggess in India terrorized people in the name of the goddess Kali. Rome tried to conquer the known world. Vikings had no problem raping and pillaging and their religion certainly allowed it. The list just goes on and on.

Christianity, however, was not a well received religion when it first came out. It was a cult and many were blamed and killed for things they didn't do in Rome. When the one emperor finally converted, Emperor Constantine, he did so for political motive, not religious.But he helped make it more socially acceptable, in which case before, it was not. The church eventually gained enough political influence and power to take over Europe.


So by far Religion is an excuse by people for war and doing bad things; yes. The real thing here is human nature. Its in our nature to be violent, and unfortunaley many have a problem accepting that. There's a reason by the way, that anthropology, the study of human beings, includes the study of religion. Religion is a social and cultural construct.

P.s. According to what I've read in the OT about him, god is not good.


Edited by Volvagia (09/02/09 06:46 PM)
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    Temptation on my side
    Devil got me a fat new bribe

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#30614 - 10/19/09 05:09 AM Re: Thier delusion seems to work... [Re: Volvagia]
Miss May Offline
pledge


Registered: 09/27/09
Posts: 66
Loc: sebastopol, CA
Productive people, creative geniuses, and powerful people don't have to be satanists. They're people who keep their eyes on what they want and work hard to achieve their goals. This is only logical and doesn't have much to do with their religion.

I don't want to proclaim that I'm a satanist to everyone but that doesn't mean I don't take pride in who I am. Using a success story to promote Satanism is not what I'm about because I could care less about anyone who assumes that just because they've met satanists that are "low on the food chain" that everyone who agrees with La Vey's philosophy is "too busy hating."

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#31090 - 11/01/09 03:03 PM Re: Thier delusion seems to work... [Re: Miss May]
felixgarnet Offline
active member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 688
Loc: UK
In my opinion, no Satanist worthy of the name will be, "too busy hating". To hate someone or something gives it power and deems it worthy of attention. For example, I refuse to get into a lather of hatred for Shirley Phelps-Roper and her peculiar brand of Christianity, which requires members of the Westboro Baptist Church to attend the funerals of dead soldiers and hurl abuse at their families. I do, however, object strongly to this rudeness and to the fact that she abuses five year old children by forcing them to join her in this activity. However, if she and her followers behaved like that around any funeral I was attending i would personally ensure that all the adults got the good kicking they deserve. That, to me, would be appropriate action, as any attempt at debate would be futile and churches love martyrs.
_________________________
"Here's to Artifice!" - Anton Szandor LaVey.

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#31105 - 11/02/09 01:22 AM Re: Thier delusion seems to work... [Re: Macumba]
EvilDjinn Offline
stranger


Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 31
 Originally Posted By: Macumba


A very good example would be filmaker Roman Polanski : 'The 9th door, Rosemary's baby...


...and child molester? I don't dispute Polanski's films, but it's his other actions that make me question whether or not he's a Satanist. Sometimes, I can let go of small things in the record of someone who obviously displays large amounts of Satanic qualities. Child molestation is NOT something that I dismiss.

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#31283 - 11/05/09 01:24 AM Re: Thier delusion seems to work... [Re: EvilDjinn]
Master Magick Offline
pledge


Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 63
Loc: New York, USA
re: Polanski. Yes if the charges are true, drugging an underage kid for sex, then definitely not a good example of a Satanist...

As for the OP. As has been said over and over again, successful Satanists do not need to go running around proclaiming their belief to justify your belief. Would it be fun if a bunch of top CEOs, Agents, Actors, Designers, Bankers, etc. came out as Satanists? Sure. Not gonna happen any sooner than they come out as KKK members. Get real.

People who are movers/shakers in any business (except lower levels of the entertainment biz) need to keep the i's dotted etc.
And before the kids and people without jobs or a grip on reality say they are being fake or have no backbone... No, they are just working within the existing framework and being successful doing it!
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Magick

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#31754 - 11/16/09 02:32 AM Re: Competing Philosophies [Re: FromGehenna]
nocTifer Offline
pledge


Registered: 11/07/09
Posts: 87
Loc: Khazakstan
 Originally Posted By: FromGehenna
{SB:}'Satanism is... a philosophy used by the most successful people in the world' ... actual evidence of that from Satanists themselves is sorely lacking. ... Satanists follow a philosophy based on practical self interest, rational {hedonism}, epicureanism and carnal pleasure{,} yet by and large most Satanists ...are at the bottom of the ladder.
as is in part represented above, the response to this excellent criticism of Satanism is typically that 1) all the successes all hiding, 2) they use the philosophy but don't identify it publically or properly, or 3) the 'ladder' is actually defined differently (values, measurement, success is 'different' somehow, etc.).

the usual success stories pointed out are those who were provided honorary membership in the Church of Satan (Sammy Davis, Jr., Marilyn Manson), and yet the first was Jewish and the second claims to like Christianity as well as Satanism, deriving his life outlook from a variety of sources). the biggest named Satanist film-maker that i know about is Kenneth Anger (a personal friend of ASLaVey and one of the founders of the CoS), yet none of his films are more than 40 mins long and he has little to show for his efforts since "Lucifer Rising" and "Invocation of My Demon Brother" in the 70s and 80s (no awards).

the most successful Satanian career by far is the musician, and the two main qualifying individuals i can identify here are Kim Bendix Petersen (King Diamond, of Mercyful Fate) and Vincent Crowley (of Acheron), both of whom are members of the Church of Satan proudly identifying in public as such. King Diamond was nominated for a Grammy in 2008 long after claiming that he'd 'given up believing in anything religious' (you decide if that disqualifies him as a Satanist).
 Quote:
...the majority of {Satanists} are disgruntled quasi-sociopath persons that are incapable of being part of society and using it {to move toward} their own end.
I'm not sure that is a fair assessment, but not because of the equivocations and excuses provided in this thread so far. my impression is that you are trying to evaluate the social success of a movement that really only got going some 40 years ago, whereas 'theistic philosophies', which you are contrasting, have had a LONG head start.

additionally, it is far more important that a successful individual takes a public stand as a Satanian and identifies their OWN philosophy as that which they find most important. LaVey's was simply a start, and full of weaknesses which should be picked apart in public by Satanists ourselves, rather than left to evaluation by those with biases such as Chris Mathews in his "Modern Satanism", or defended by a generous sociologist of religion studying Satanity such as James R. Lewis.

personal excellence is indeed the means by which we may demonstrate the value of any philosophy we applied to achieve it, but i don't think of it as "revenge" so much as providing actual (rather than merely imaginary, projected) evidence of its success. Satanity will take a stride forward when we begin to see the general support for: independence amongst our throng, rather than cohering to some cult; a genius of the present amidst our number, rather than allegiance to some founder, his church, family, or "bible"; and innovation from within our subculture, rather than reactionary inversions and collaged regurgitations of subversion ideologies and horror films.

that said, i don't have a vested interest in seeing Satanity compete as a religion or as a philosophy with others in the public eye, or that it necessarily out-produces or out-succeeds that competition. I am satisfied getting as clear a glimpse into the whole, making this known to the world, and continuing to serve Satan carefully in accord with our pact.
_________________________
Troll Towelhead, Grand Mufti of Satanism
http://www.facebook.com/Tr0llT0welhead
http://www.gospel-of-satan.com

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#31755 - 11/16/09 04:19 AM Re: Competing Philosophies [Re: nocTifer]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Originally Posted By: nocTifer
the usual success stories pointed out are those who were provided honorary membership in the Church of Satan (Sammy Davis, Jr., Marilyn Manson), and yet the first was Jewish and the second claims to like Christianity as well as Satanism, deriving his life outlook from a variety of sources)


And where exactly does Manson claim that he "likes" Christianity?


 Quote:
the most successful Satanian career by far is the musician, and the two main qualifying individuals i can identify here are Kim Bendix Petersen (King Diamond, of Mercyful Fate) and Vincent Crowley (of Acheron), both of whom are members of the Church of Satan proudly identifying in public as such.


First of all the word is Satanist. Ok? Get it right, Satanist. Secondly, just because the most "successful" Satanists that you know about are musicians doesn't mean that is the most successful career a Satanist can have. Maybe one is not musically inclined at all but is really good at construction so they make a career out of that. Maybe they couldn't build a birdhouse to save their life but are damn good with guns and decide to join the military etc. There are plenty of careers one can be successful in. Not to mention that each must ultimately define success for themselves. Success doesn't have to mean having millions of dollars, notoriety and a world-wide fanbase.


 Quote:
additionally, it is far more important that a successful individual takes a public stand as a Satanian and identifies their OWN philosophy as that which they find most important.


What? That is retarded. To publicly out yourself could be a detriment to your success. Why would someone want to do that? At the risk of sounding like a broken record; it isn't the Satanist's job to make the world safe for Satanism and martyr complexes are decidedly not Satanic.

 Quote:
LaVey's was simply a start, and full of weaknesses which should be picked apart in public by Satanists ourselves...


Now, I am no LaVey worshipper, but do you really have any right to say such things about LaVey's CoS? From what I have seen about your *ahem* group is that is really just one big weakness. Destined to be lost hisory and remembered only as joke if it is remembered at all.

 Quote:
continuing to serve Satan carefully in accord with our pact.


Pact with Satan? Jesus Titty-Fucking Christ - is there no end to the insanity?
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#31760 - 11/16/09 05:12 AM Re: Competing Philosophies [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
nocTifer Offline
pledge


Registered: 11/07/09
Posts: 87
Loc: Khazakstan
hi 6Satan6Archist6,

see "Marilyn Manson on Anton Lavey" where MManson says:

"...but by no means is {Satanism} the only idea that I associate myself with, because I incorporate a lot of different philosophies into what I am about, including Christianity. ... There's a lot of valuable lessons to be learned from The Bible. I just feel that the way a lot of people interpret it, particularly in the U.S.A., is very hypocritical, and that's what i try to open people's minds to: that there is {sic} different ways of looking at things rather than what we've been told over the past several hundred years."

you also asked me to explain why someone would want to 'out themselves' even though it "could be a detriment to your success". obviously if they already had enough success or they were in a position where they didn't feel that such a disclosure would affect them negatively, then they might want to do that for personal reasons, to lend their brand of Satanism a hand, serve Satan by expounding on a cherished inspiration or ally, etc.

with regard to "saying things about LaVey's CoS", you've misunderstood me. I was plainly talking about Satanist philosophy, and LaVey's in particular, when i said it was 'simply a start, and full of weaknesses which should be picked apart in public by Satanists ourselves'. it is my observation of his writings in the context of philosophy at large and the bases from which he proceeded (e.g. Redbeard, Rand, etc.).
_________________________
Troll Towelhead, Grand Mufti of Satanism
http://www.facebook.com/Tr0llT0welhead
http://www.gospel-of-satan.com

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#31778 - 11/16/09 04:28 PM Re: Competing Philosophies [Re: nocTifer]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Yes, I am well aware that Manson borrows from many different belief sets to form his own personal outlook on life. However, I asked where he stated that he "likes Christianity". As a HUGE Manson fan for over half my life I feel pretty safe in saying that he doesn't like Christianity. You can find value or usefullness in something without liking it.

 Quote:
if they already had enough success or they were in a position where they didn't feel that such a disclosure would affect them negatively, then they might want to do that for personal reasons, to lend their brand of Satanism a hand, serve Satan by expounding on a cherished inspiration or ally, etc.


That doesn't explain how it is "more important" that someone publicly out themself. And more important than what? I don't know about you but I think having a relatively conflict free life is more important than letting everyone and their grandma know what I believe. Serve Satan? Such phrases reek of Theism and to me all Theists are Dumbshit Fucktard Muppets.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#31787 - 11/16/09 07:22 PM Re: Competing Philosophies [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
nocTifer Offline
pledge


Registered: 11/07/09
Posts: 87
Loc: Khazakstan
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
...how [is it] "more important" that someone publicly out themself{?} And more important than what?
sorry if i was at all unclear. I was responding to text by FromGehena (FG):
 Originally Posted By: FromGehenna
Satanism will take a stride forward when a major captain of industry steps forward and states that they are in agreement with the philosophy of Anton LaVey.
whereas my point about importance pertained to 'taking a stride forward'. I elaborated on that below in my original post where i outlined the general support for such a stride forward relying less on adherence to specific groups, their output, or the mirroring of social inversions.

this isn't about importance to any particular person, but about Satanity's advance against the backdrop of the culture or cultures in which it appears. certain things that FG proclaimed valuable for the development of Satanity vis a vis global culture, especially in comparison to the glorified presentation within the SB in aggrandizement of Satanists, i felt were hampered by cultic myopia. he sees something defining or meaningful about adhering to the philosophy of LaVey, whereas my focus is an extension of application of some LaVeyan principles so as to move BEYOND LaVey to more intelligent and sustainable philosophic standards and characters. LaVey isn't good enough for me, simply put, and we can do much better than him, and those upon whom he draws, though i appreciate his contribution and that of the CoS as far as it goes.
_________________________
Troll Towelhead, Grand Mufti of Satanism
http://www.facebook.com/Tr0llT0welhead
http://www.gospel-of-satan.com

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#31788 - 11/16/09 08:07 PM Re: Competing Philosophies [Re: nocTifer]
Asmedious Moderator Online
Moderator
senior member


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1725
Loc: New York
Anton LaVey gave a definition to Satanism. Certainly we can move beyond his ideas as we advance in knowledge and mature in age. However, once we move beyond his ideas, we are also moving outside of Satanism into something else.

That something else may very well be more advanced in philosophy and can be beneficial. But I don’t believe that something would still be Satanism.

For instance, if LaVey inspired someone to go out in to the world and study human nature and the workings of the mind, then that person would no longer be involved in just studying Satanism, but Psychology and or sociology. At the end of their studies they wouldn’t have a doctorate in Satanism, but a doctorate in Psychology/Psychiatry and or Sociology.

Dr. LaVey used the persona of Satan created by Christian and other “white light” organizations, to give a name to his personal philosphy, because Satan’s character closely matched the ideas of A.L.

There is only so far that one can go using the ideas behind the persona of Satan. He is a finite character, and not infinite that one can add new ideas and personalities unto.

I am very much in favor of people moving on and expanding upon their personal education and philosophies, and such advancement is part of the Satanic ideal of reaching ones highest potential.
But the new ideas that come from such advancement I would argue, would not be an advancement of the Satanic Philosophy itself.
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