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#27586 - 07/28/09 01:37 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Quote:
Problem: people do usually not want to hand out there real address, and in my experience, the respondents actually prefer answering on the internet.

Read a bit closer Amina: I said they should ask the email adress, send the survey to that adress and ask the participant if they would like to send it back to a real adress (no digital one). It saves money for the person who is taking off the survey...

 Quote:
If Lewis was to use snailmail, someone would have to pay the cost of sending out 1000 letters or so with stamped replay envelopes to like 50 different countries.

Didn't you claim he is working for a BIG university? Such things are payed back or can be brought to account in taxes.. it get's payed back, especially if you are a well-esteemed expert in your branch. ;\)

 Quote:
How? People can still cheat.

Read again, I didn't say it would be 100% more accurate, I only said it will be less likely they'll cheat. Small difference from what you thought to have read, neverless an important difference.

Rest of your answer:
If you really want to believe and see professors as gods, go ahead, I don't care. But keep in mind they will also make mistakes. And the best back-up I have to proove it is that every new discovery in science is being verified by a group of people and never by 1 person only. Even so, professors in the same branch will have diverse discussions on a topic because of the conflicting views and interpretations on a fact. It's not because you don't get a thing what they are talking about and assume they are right that they indeed are right.

 Quote:
A topic always looks more simple from outside.

I agree with that, but sadly enough I am speaking from experience by personal interest. Not to boost my ego, but I have already prooven in my direct envirronement I can follow and discuss religion on an academic level.

What intrigues me more is that despite the survey not becoming on to an end, you already seem to know the results. Even so, you already seem to draw conclusions from non-existing results from this second survey. Care to elaborate?

on a last note:
 Quote:
I really wish that people would read some of the books that have been published already.

If a product is good it will sell itself...
I'm a pain in the ass I know, but at least we are keeping it nice. Kudos for that ;\)
_________________________
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#27593 - 07/28/09 04:21 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Dimitri]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
I said they should ask the email adress, send the survey to that adress and ask the participant if they would like to send it back to a real adress (no digital one). It saves money for the person who is taking off the survey...


I have five e-mail addresses and some use even more. How would this keep people from answering more then once? Doing the survey on the internet is much easier, and you do not need all the work sending out e-mails to several hundred people and typing in there answers after you get there replays. I have worked with surveys as a student aid. We never made surveys that way. One of the reasons being that it had a too low respond raid. People can be convinced to take part in an online survey or answer questions on the phone, but if they have to use time an money to mail a letter, almost no one replays - and the few who do will not be representative. If you want answers from handwritten replays, you need to make it easier to hand in the answers - and that is a bit hard when people live all around the world.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Read again, I didn't say it would be 100% more accurate, I only said it will be less likely they'll cheat.


But why do you think that? As I said, many people have more then one e-mail address, and new ones can be made in minutes. Using a service that log IP addresses is safer. Not bullet proof, but safer.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
If you really want to believe and see professors as gods, go ahead, I don't care.


This is not the issue. The issue is that people try to discredit someone and his field without the proper knowledge about the field and the man. The CoS did that eight years ago and they are doing it again now, but they have an clear agenda. I am not part of his fan club or something like that, but having been a student in the same field for many years, I have some idea about who is an authority, and how to evaluate someones work in the field. Look at the books he has published already, especially the books on Satanism, and use those to decide if you trust him - not some google search on the internet. I think it is really important that this kind of work is done, and I hope that as many as possible answer the survey without listening to the CoS or others who have hidden agendas. If you or others have serious questions about the survey or suggestions on how to improve it I recommend you address those to Lewis himself. As far as I can see, some of you people think they know more then him about how to do surveys and study religion (sigh), so I am sure he would be very happy about the help (sarcasm).


 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
But keep in mind they will also make mistakes. And the best back-up I have to proove it is that every new discovery in science is being verified by a group of people and never by 1 person only. Even so, professors in the same branch will have diverse discussions on a topic because of the conflicting views and interpretations on a fact. It's not because you don't get a thing what they are talking about and assume they are right that they indeed are right.


Duh, who do not know this? But this is not the issue at hand.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
What intrigues me more is that despite the survey not becoming on to an end, you already seem to know the results. Even so, you already seem to draw conclusions from non-existing results from this second survey. Care to elaborate?


I do not know the results, but I do not expect it to differ that much from the last one, and I also expect it to reflect much of what one can see if one take a look at what goes on in Satanism. I don't think we are surrounded by closet nazi dewilworshippers who eat children in the weekends.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
If a product is good it will sell itself...


In Denmark, satanists often have an interest in reading academic books on Satanism and related topics. I have not seen the same trend in the US. Sometimes i wonder if people even READ books in the US.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
I'm a pain in the ass I know, but at least we are keeping it nice. Kudos for that ;\)


I am just wondering about your agenda. If you want to help Lewis do a better survey, I would think you would write him with suggestions for the next survey. What I see is someone trying to discourage people from taking part in the survey, and I don't think I like that.

- Amina

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#27594 - 07/28/09 04:36 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Your getting out of line Amina.
No need to drop to mocking American, and how much they read.
It doesn't bear in line with the topic.
Plus, you don't honestly know what many American satanist read.

Dimitri is from Belgium, he is not from the USA.

Otherwise, carry on....

Morgan

ps.
I know I'm not a mod, but its 4:30am.
Please bear with me.


Edited by Morgan (07/28/09 04:37 AM)
Edit Reason: tried to be polite
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#27595 - 07/28/09 04:46 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
wolf Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/27/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
Maybe Gilmore is scared that the number of "unaffiliated Satanists" that participate in the survey will trump the number of those who state their affiliation with CoS, which will make "his" organization seem less powerful than they would like people to think they are.

Therefore, by urging CoS members to boycott this survey [...] CoS will be viewed the only true Satanists who are too elite to participate in a survey, and, like custard, can't be nailed to a wall.

I don't think that is the reason. At the time I was a member of the Church of Satan, it was very important to the Church of Satan that other kinds of Satanism were never acknowledged as valid definitions. If this happened, the Church of Satan would lose its ownership of the term and would have to compete on equal foot with other Satanic organizations. If the Church of Satan openly acknowledged that other kinds of Satanism were valid definitions, then the Church of Satan could no longer claim its unique ownership of the term. This would be highly problematic to the Church of Satan, since all they have to offer that other organizations can't offer is LaVey's legacy.

The refusal of the Church of Satan to engage in any study or participate on web sites that recognized other kinds of Satanism was sheer politics: it was a battle for authority and ownership of the term "Satanism," and probably still is.

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#27596 - 07/28/09 07:27 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Morgan]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Your getting out of line Amina.
No need to drop to mocking American, and how much they read.


I am sorry. I am just a bit tiered of Dimitries attitude, and I think it would help a bit if people actually read the research made on Satanism by Lewis and others, before they try to attack his character or his work - or try to read some of the serious research made before 2001 (it is almost nonexistent, and that is a point in itself). In my view, Satanism is among other things about knowledge, rational thinking and being able to recognize expertise. Attacking false authorities and dogmas and questioning everything is important, but sometimes it becomes plain silly - especially if people overestimate there own knowledge and expertise.

Blaming Americans for Dimitries shortcomings is not fair, but on the other hand I have not met the same attitude towards academic work in the US as I am used to in Denmark. In the old survey it looked like satanist read more books then the general population in the US, but I don't think I remember ever talking to a satanist who had read one of the new academic books on Satanism. I would be very happy to be proved wrong, and even more happy if some of the people who have actually read the books would try to inform Dimitri about the contend and how they evaluated the quality of the books.

- Amina

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#27597 - 07/28/09 07:33 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
 Quote:
Blaming Americans for Dimitries shortcomings is not fair, but on the other hand I have not met the same attitude towards academic work in the US as I am used to in Denmark.

Of course it isn't fair. If you'd read all of Morgan's post, which said, "Dimitri is from Belgium, he is not from the USA.", you'd see that you're misdirecting your frustration at the wrong country.
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Nothing is sacred.

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#27602 - 07/28/09 09:22 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Nemesis]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
AND you're stereotyping ALL Satanists (other than apparently those in Denmark, where you seem to feel that the whole of real civilization lies.)

You've been a Satanist for 15 years and you seem to find Nazis everywhere. I've been a Satanist for damn near 40, and I find it's an aberration amongst those I've known or corresponded with; and that would be quite a few from many areas around the world. I will grant you, however, that the issue of Satanism and Naziism has been around since the earliest days of the Church, when the news media locked on to the prominence of red and black as colors favored in its symbolism. There was an open complaint by its detractors that one never saw "blacks or jews" in the Church of Satan membership.

LaVey's pithy comment about this in The Cloven Hoof was "they were apparently too busy counting dark skins and hooked noses." Of course there were (and are) blacks in The Church of Satan. The most notable was Sammy Davis Jr. And no, there are no Jews in The Church of Satan. There are no Catholics in The Church of Satan. There are no Protestants in The Church of Satan. There are no Muslims in The Church of Satan. The Church of Satan is composed of ... wait for it... SATANISTS.

And although they are a statistic blip in on the radar screen in any worldwide Satanic "movement," certainly one will find those who might choose National Socialism as a political vehicle, or they might be a Republican, a Democrat, a Libertarian, a member of the Green Party, an Anarchist. Personal choice in religion hardly equates to personal choice in politics. I am personally a Republican. Try to stereotype ME based on that and my religious affiliations, and you'd end up looking quite silly indeed.

Dimitri has a mind of his own and is as entitled to it as you are to yours, independent of his country of residence. While he is from Belgium, as is Diavolo, we also have members from the UK, Norway, the US and many other places around the world, including Denmark. And none of them wears the mantel of supremacy in thought or in standing within "the Satanic community." They're all individuals, capable of free thought, and whether that thought corresponds to yours is hit or miss. They don't HAVE to agree with you. They don't HAVE to believe you. And they don't HAVE to accept your "authority," such that it is, based on what you write on the computer screen.

I find it interesting, and while you seem totally enamored of Lewis and others who're so active in this field, you're coming off as someone who's mind is already made up as to what must be. That has caused many an honest researcher "cook the books" and force findings to fit their agenda. I'd urge continued research, but back off from the stereotyping and the prejudice. They only taint any semblance of impartiality in academia.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#27604 - 07/28/09 10:15 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Quote:
If you want answers from handwritten replays, you need to make it easier to hand in the answers - and that is a bit hard when people live all around the world.

After answering with my previous post, this problem also came to mind while going to my job.
The only conclusion I can draw is that things have and are taken way to big. It would have been more thougtfull if it was limited by country per country. First the results of Denmark, then from the neighbouring countries, then other countries and so on. Some countries will disagree to elaborate on the survey, while others will do so. This on itself would be also intersting to see the countries's idea about Satanism and it's exact position.

 Quote:
The issue is that people try to discredit someone and his field without the proper knowledge about the field and the man. The CoS did that eight years ago and they are doing it again now, but they have an clear agenda. I am not part of his fan club or something like that, but having been a student in the same field for many years, I have some idea about who is an authority, and how to evaluate someones work in the field.

I'm not trying to discredit him or any other fellow, I only state thet you should keep your bullshit filters and critical mind online.
Within my branch of studies I also have persons who have authority in their specific branch. Does it mean I'll have to accept everything he said? No, no and no. When he comes up with an idea or found something new I still have to keep my bullshit filters on. Just to check if he indeed has made no mistakes and manipulated his results. Same applies for the persons you have described and the attitude I recommend you to wear. I have read a few lines and paragraphs of these persons, and altough he makes sense, I'm not going to accept everything he publishes. And certainly with this survey where he IMO (and any other critical thinker) already made a few huge mistakes which I already pointed out.

 Quote:
As far as I can see, some of you people think they know more then him about how to do surveys and study religion (sigh), so I am sure he would be very happy about the help (sarcasm).

I'm not claiming to know more about surveys, only pointing out a few weaknesses which he will be confronted with. I still have the ability to speak my mind don't ya think? If you don't like to read critisism about it, just ignore it.
Tired of my attitude? Only holding a little discussion where our views oppose a bit.

 Quote:

I am just wondering about your agenda. If you want to help Lewis do a better survey, I would think you would write him with suggestions for the next survey. What I see is someone trying to discourage people from taking part in the survey, and I don't think I like that.

My danish isn't that good, and I'm not feeling inclined to help out someone without something in it for me.
I'm also not discouraging people, only giving some constructive critisism. If I wanted to take it down or discourage people I would make up a few things to do so.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#27610 - 07/28/09 01:34 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Dimitri]
wolf Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/27/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Within my branch of studies I also have persons who have authority in their specific branch. Does it mean I'll have to accept everything he said? No, no and no. When he comes up with an idea or found something new I still have to keep my bullshit filters on. Just to check if he indeed has made no mistakes and manipulated his results. Same applies for the persons you have described and the attitude I recommend you to wear.

Yes, it is generally a good idea to apply one's critical sense. Surveys are always prone to inaccurate data, and require careful analysis. An experienced researcher will know what to look out for, and how to identify trends by properly interpreting the submitted answers.

That said, lay man's critical sense is rarely applicable to the work of experts. For example, if Joe Schmoe, who never prepared a meal, is critical of the master chef's methods, chances are that Joe Average simply doesn't have a clue. Or, if a white-belt martial artist tells me I'm doing a particular technique wrong, chances are that the white-belt student is unaware that I'm simply making a perfectly valid variation of the technique. These people aren't necessarily stupid; they're just lay man like we all are in most fields. By the same token (and this is about as diplomatic as I can possibly get) the odds of you being able to provide any criticism that either hasn't already been considered or doesn't apply to the survey are very low, given your age and thus limited education.

The questionnaires are being answered as we speak, and James Lewis is hardly going to withdraw the survey only to resubmit it according to your or others' suggestions. Rather than complaining about how it should have been, I suggest you be constructive instead and provide suggestions on how to interpret the submitted answers, preferably by demonstrating that you know what Lewis intends to use the survey for to begin with.

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#27613 - 07/28/09 02:01 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: wolf]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Quote:
The questionnaires are being answered as we speak, and James Lewis is hardly going to withdraw the survey only to resubmit it according to your or others' suggestions. Rather than complaining about how it should have been, I suggest you be constructive instead and provide suggestions on how to interpret the submitted answers, preferably by demonstrating that you know what Lewis intends to use the survey for to begin with.

On the mere look of your profile I can assume you are probably one of Amina's friends who doesn't like critcs also.
This is a Satanic forum, everyone has it's own opinion. So my opinion is that I suggest to keep your mouth shut and reread my responses thoroughly. It clearly shows I'm only poking a few weak aspects which need improvement or should have been improved since the last survey. No demotivation or calling up people to boycot it.... Learn to read and think before commenting.

I have been constructive enough to point out the weak aspects which will clearly float again after the whole survey has been done and your beloved professor will have to deal with.

Also, don't just assume I'm not experienced when it comes to surveys and statistics. Fact is; I've done a few Surveys myself within the last 5 years, maybe not that much as some others did, but enough to point out basic mistakes which can be made. Sadly enough this guy has made plenty of them. Academic "experience"/level or not, I still have the ability to notice bullshit, mistakes and errors by common sense, own background and references with other sources.


Edited by Dimitri (07/28/09 02:05 PM)
_________________________
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#27616 - 07/28/09 02:50 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Dimitri]
wolf Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/27/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
On the mere look of your profile I can assume you are probably one of Amina's friends who doesn't like critcs also.

You don't have enough data to form an assumption of my attitude towards critics (or is that how you form opinions?). Criticism from people that have no knowledge in the field that they criticize is usually not criticism at all but rather that very bullshit that you (as do we) want eliminated. James Lewis had already passed the survey to a number of experts and received the necessary criticism before publishing it. If Lewis had wanted your opinion, he'd have asked you. You're not criticizing; you're making noise.

 Quote:
This is a Satanic forum, everyone has it's own opinion. So my opinion is that I suggest to keep your mouth shut and reread my responses thoroughly.

Opinions aren't equal, and in your position it would be prudent to consider whether you have sufficient qualifications to form one to begin with. I suggest you moderate your language and speak as if we stood right next to each other.

 Quote:
Academic "experience"/level or not, I still have the ability to notice bullshit, mistakes and errors by common sense, own background and references with other sources.

Let me put it like this: I've learned through my work as a university lecturer that over-confident students rarely get the best grades. Those half-studied students know just enough to impress their less educated friends, but in the eyes of those that are fully trained, they just make fools of themselves.

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#27619 - 07/28/09 03:08 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: wolf]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Quote:
You don't have enough data to form an assumption of my attitude towards critics (or is that how you form opinions?). Criticism from people that have no knowledge in the field that they criticize is usually not criticism at all but rather that very bullshit that you (as do we) want eliminated. James Lewis had already passed the survey to a number of experts and received the necessary criticism before publishing it. If Lewis had wanted your opinion, he'd have asked you. You're not criticizing; you're making noise.

I actually have enough data about your person.. The internet is quite a waste bin you know. A quick search on your name came up with enough results to form a nice conclusion. It's fun to see you and Amina time by time appearing next to each other.. dating?
Also my dear friend, you don't have any background about my personality or interests, except from the information I gave away here.
So now you claim he did pass out his survey to a few experts? Names please, I seldom accept statements without back-up. Or are you one of the "experts", if that's so: you didn't do a very well good job....

 Quote:
Let me put it like this: I've learned through my work as a university lecturer that over-confident students rarely get the best grades. Those half-studied students know just enough to impress their less educated friends, but in the eyes of those that are fully trained, they just make fools of themselves.

And from what I know is that most self-confident students in the end get a better payment then the professor since they had enough brains to put the knowledge into practice with better results, or even could find something mind-changing with their confidence...
Empty posturing impresses hardly.

I'm gonna leave this topic for now, it's turning into a mud-slinging contest and I like to keep my clothes clean. However, you are standing in a weak position since your sudden appearance and obvious links with amina only state she called for "back-up" since she couldn't handle things. Bad idea to send an unarmed soldier to a war...
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#27620 - 07/28/09 03:09 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: wolf]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Seriously Ole Wolf, who cares if the survey is done perfect or not. It's the internet so it'll be fucked up anyways, especially because the questionnaire will be answered by a shitload of people that barely know how to spell Satan and have no deeper knowledge behind it than the idea it's that red guy with the horns who gets all the cool chicks.

Anyone long enough on the Internet will know that the biggest part of Internet Satanism doesn't even qualify as religion or cult because it's nothing but bored teens or wanna look evil school kids.

So the how of the survey isn't worth too much debate.

D.

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#27646 - 07/28/09 05:53 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Dimitri]
wolf Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/27/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
I'm gonna leave this topic for now, it's turning into a mud-slinging contest and I like to keep my clothes clean. However, you are standing in a weak position since your sudden appearance and obvious links with amina only state she called for "back-up" since she couldn't handle things. Bad idea to send an unarmed soldier to a war...

Dimitri, the mud slinging started only with your ad hominem attacks and your foul language.

Amina and I have lived together for 10 years and have children together. I declared myself a Satanist before you were even born. Amina and I have appeared in numerous interviews together. I would hardly call this a "sudden appearance." I've never participated on this particular board earlier, but Amina certainly didn't ask me to help against you, as if that were necessary. This will probably hurt your grossly inflated self-perception a bit, but my reason for joining this message board had nothing to do with you. I merely wanted to post my message about the Church of Satan's usual reaction to research that dares to suggest that the Church of Satan doesn't own the term "Satanism." However, I'm sure some of the very long-time members here remember us and, unlike relative newcomers, don't need Google to determine who we are. It is also important only for ad hominem attacks.

 Quote:
And from what I know is that most self-confident students in the end get a better payment then the professor since they had enough brains to put the knowledge into practice with better results, or even could find something mind-changing with their confidence...

Then you know very little; professors and people in so-called professional positions (such as myself) are motivated by highly different things. I'm not working as a professional because I'm somehow smarter than my former professors, but because I have other interests than they. And, overly self-confident employees tend to get added to the lay-off lists at work; you'll find out soon enough if you behave at work as you behave here.

If you had really wanted to provide constructive criticism on Lewis' survey, you would simply have emailed your criticism to him. Instead, you decided to post it here where it serves no purpose other than to detract people from participating in the survey. One old Satanist referred to such behavior as "shit-disturbing."

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#27649 - 07/28/09 06:13 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: wolf]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Honestly Wolf, you are out of line.

You have taken this thread off line into a personal attack mode.

If you and Amira are not used to being questioned, you might be in the wrong place.

Everything such as presented is questioned. To take any kind of survey at face value is silly.

"I merely wanted to post my message about the Church of Satan's usual reaction to research that dares to suggest that the Church of Satan doesn't own the term "Satanism." However, I'm sure some of the very long-time members here remember us and, unlike relative newcomers, don't need Google to determine who we are. It is also important only for ad hominem attacks."

No one cares who you are. You may be someone in Demark, but here, you are just like everyone else, nobody. You are not a special snowflake until your posts are intelligent and recognized as such by large number of members. I don't remember you ever posting, and Amera your wife comes and goes through here. Hardly worth remembering at times.

No one here really cares about the current CoS. If you took the time to read this forum before jumping in, you might understand that better.

At this point, I am going to take you and your wife's lack of common respect in replying to questions as a matter of a language barrier. Since English is not your native language.

Oh, and it did look like you jumped into save her.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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