Page all of 7 12345>Last »
Topic Options
#27400 - 07/23/09 01:56 AM The Satan Survey - Participate!
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
A few years back some professor of psychology did an online survey of Satanists. While it's impossible to get a definite picture of Satanic demographics from something like that, it was an interesting read that clarified a few things, and was published in a journal of religious studies.

Well, he's doing a newer, update survey, and I'm pretty sure it will get much more responses than last time.

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=OCv1VM6KjYFZ8RJlFV6tYQ_3d_3d

Maybe a mod can sticky this or frontpage it or something. To have a scholar of religion take Satanism seriously and make an effort to study it is a rarity, so hopefully we can help out.
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

Top
#27401 - 07/23/09 01:59 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: The Zebu]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
I made it a sticky - until anyone else objects to it that is ;\)
Top
#27453 - 07/24/09 02:37 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: The Zebu]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
Big Slick
active member


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
I decided to take the survey. It was one of the better ones that I have seen/been sent/participated in. I didn't get the option to make my answers public, which I wanted to. Sorry. I might have clicked send a little too hastily?
_________________________
Beer, the reason I get up every afternoon.

Top
#27458 - 07/24/09 05:41 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: fakepropht]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
I did the survey as well. I thought it was well thought out. I didn't see an option to save and make any answers public, but you can contact the person by email if you wish. I remember seeing an email address for him on the survey.


M
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



Top
#27462 - 07/24/09 02:19 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Morgan]
Morbid Rex Offline
member


Registered: 01/29/09
Posts: 130
Does anyone have a link to the original article he posted? The survey wont let me go back now that I've completed it.
_________________________
Do I dare disturb the universe

Satanism! The only scientifically proven religion.

Top
#27472 - 07/25/09 01:08 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Morbid Rex]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
If it uses your IP to track you as someone who's completed it, you can always try using http://www.hidemyass.com
Top
#27481 - 07/25/09 08:01 AM New survey on satanism
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
Leading expert on religion James R. Lewis from the University of Wisconsin, is conducting new research on contemporary Satanism. The current phase of his research builds on prior work that was published eight years ago as “Who Serves Satan?” This earlier article played an impotent role in the early research on contemporary Satanism and can be found at http://www.uni-marburg.de/fb03/ivk/mjr/pdfs/2001/articles/lewis2001.pdf
If you are a satanist, and would like to participate and make your unique contribution to the publics knowledge and opinion on Satanism, please visit http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=OCv1VM6KjYFZ8RJlFV6tYQ_3d_3d and complete the questionnaire. Unless you otherwise identify yourself, your answers will be completely anonymous.

Without real knowledge misunderstandings and misinformation will prevail. Let your voice be heard today, and make your own unique contribution to a more accurate picture of contemporary Satanism.

- Amina

Top
#27483 - 07/25/09 09:01 AM Re: New survey on satanism [Re: Amina]
Meq Offline
Banned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
Welcome back to the forum Amina, but this survey has already been posted here in the Satanism section and has been made a sticky topic.
Top
#27486 - 07/25/09 09:26 AM Re: New survey on satanism [Re: Amina]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Thank you for posting the link to the final results, Anima. I and several others have filled out the survey, which I thought was one of the more in-depth questionnaires I've taken.
_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

Top
#27534 - 07/26/09 11:23 AM Re: New survey on satanism [Re: Meq]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
Sorry about the reposting of old news. I promised Lewis to spread the word before I went on vacation, so when I came back and he had announced the final version of the new survey, I was in a bit of a hurry.

I hope everyone will try to spread the word by e-lists, facebookgrpups, message boards and webpages. The more responses he gets, the more value and weight his research will have. I have heard that he will try to present some of his newest findings at a conference on Satanism in Norway later this year, so I guess it would be helpful if as many as possible answer the survey as soon as they can.

Now we are talking old news I hope everyone has read about the newest book on contemporary religious Satanism, edited by leading expert on the subject Jesper Aagaard Petersen. The book represent the latest and most serious research on contemporary religious Satanism and is a most have for anyone with an academic interest in the subject. See http://www.ashgate.com/default.aspx?page=637&calcTitle=1&title_id=7234&edition_id=8508

Jesper and other of the contributers to the book will also attend the conference later this year, so I hope I will be able to go too - I am sure it would be very interesting.

- Amina

Top
#27537 - 07/26/09 11:40 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: The Zebu]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
A few years back some professor of psychology did an online survey of Satanists


James R. Lewis is one of the leading experts in the study of new religious groups and have been so for many years. Before he got an interest in Satanism only a few studies from the 70'ties had been published and a few newer articles in various magazines, unless you include the studies on the satanic panic. Many other academics work in the field today, but Lewis was the one who where able to make the deals with the serious publishers so the studies could be published, and one of the people who where able to make Satanism a legitimate and serious field to study and write about for people in the fields of sociology and history of religion. Before that the field where more or less viewed as unworthy of serious research, but that has changed now.

- Amina

Top
#27550 - 07/26/09 11:38 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
Ah; I wasn't too familiar on how extensive the background was...

True, most "Satanic" studies were either done on Satanic panics or the old witch-hunting hysterias- neither of which had any relevance to real, practiced Satanism.

When you look at it- mostly based on numbers- modern Satanism can be seen as an insignificant trend among a small subculture that is unworthy of honest religious or philosophical study. Yet when viewed from the big picture, this simply cannot be. Sure, the Ahl-e Haqq religion (randomly picked) clearly outnumbers Satanists at a million adherents, and has much more cultural depth and richness for scholars to draw from-- yet say "Al-E-Haqq" to 99% of the world and they will just look at you funny. Now say the word "Satanist"-- and nearly every human being on the civilized planet will be provoked to some kind of an emotional response from that word.

That said, I'm looking forward to seeing how the results come in compared to the last one.
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

Top
#27553 - 07/27/09 01:30 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: The Zebu]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
I just got an email from one of my friends about this. Apparently the below is the CoS official stance on it.

18 July, XLIV A.S.:

HACKADEMIC WARNING!

Be advised that James R. Lewis of the University of Wisconsin is once again out to try and nail the custard to the wall. Don’t be suckered-in to his current project at doing a “Census of Satanism” (a topic he and his cronies have previously obscured with what to us is biased, ill-researched drivel). The devil-worshipping dodos will flock to him as they always do, and we think it worthwhile that true Satanists should steer clear.



What a crock of shit, Gilmore is a weenie. I guess he didn't even bother to read it at all. What else can you expect from him. If people understood that you really don't need to send him money or be a member, he would have nothing.

Maybe that is simply it, the same factions that happened in Xitiany replaying in the Satanic community. The Xitian church got rid of the gnostic who thought god was in everything and didn't need a church. Then we have Gilmore and what he has turned the CoS into saying everything not the CoS is a lie.

I think its time people learn from history.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



Top
#27556 - 07/27/09 04:14 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Morgan]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
I can see the concern of "Devil worshipping dodos" fucking up the results of the survey; but, so what?

Not like the results of this survey will determine whether or not "we", as Satanists, will be taken seriously by the public at large. Most of the sheep out there will cling to their preconcieved notions about what Satanism is anyways, thus negating the results of any survey which may or may not make us seem "normal" to the aforementioned sheep.

Maybe Gilmore is scared that the number of "unaffiliated Satanists" that participate in the survey will trump the number of those who state their affiliation with CoS, which will make "his" organization seem less powerful than they would like people to think they are.

Therefore, by urging CoS members to boycott this survey, he might be hoping that "the devil worshipping dodos" will make themselves known in such a high amount that the results will thrown away like so much afterbirth, and CoS will be viewed the only true Satanists who are too elite to participate in a survey, and, like custard, can't be nailed to a wall. After all, the ones who don't affiliate themselves with CoS might affiliate themselves with another Satanic community....
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

Top
#27557 - 07/27/09 04:26 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Morgan]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
I just got an email from one of my friends about this. Apparently the below is the Cos official stance on it.


They did the same thing with the first survey. Gilmore did not want people from the CoS taking part in the survey for one simple reason: academics like Lewis do not view CoS as the only legitimate satanic organization. When they investigate Satanism as a phenomena, they investigate all who claim to be satanists. The investigation shows that we have different KINDS of Satanism, and different kinds of organizations, but they do not try to pick one as the only true kind of Satanism. This is the same as with Christianity - Catholics think they have the only legitimate kind of Christianity, but when academics investigate Christianity, they investigate all kinds of Christianity. This do not mean that they lump everything together, but they are both able to say something about the topic in general, and something about specific groups. The work of James Lewis, Asbjørn Dyrendal, Jesper Aagaard Petersen and others in resent years have been of high standard, and without it the public would only know about Satanism from the media or Christian researchers. I can understand why the CoS want to defend what they see as there claim to the one and only true Satanism, but in this case they are not acting very sane. Even the CoS will gain nothing by boycotting serious research.

Lewis and Aagaard Petersen have edited several books and I recommend people to read them if they are unsure about the standard of research.

- Amina

Top
#27558 - 07/27/09 04:41 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
I can see the concern of "Devil worshipping dodos" fucking up the results of the survey; but, so what?


Maybe Gilmore don't understand the idea of surveys? Every population have its "dodos", and Satanism has its fare share too - everyone knows that. If a survey did not show the dodos too, the survey would not be a serious piece of work. At the same time, the public is aware of the dodos because they are more visible then most satanists, and if the public is to trust the research, the research most also include and explain the dodos. If anything, surveys are able to show how the large numbers of satanists who do NOT act as laud dodos or get in the media because of stupid actions feel about Satanism. It shows the norm, not extreme individuals, and it can show differences in the population. I this survey, people are even asked witch organizations they belong to or support, so it will be easy to investigate how members of the CoS differs from followers of ToS, Joy of Satan or other groups. Maybe the CoS is just afraid that the survey will show how there members really are, or how fem in numbers they are?

That said, one can read the old survey. CoS asked people to boycott that to, but as I read it, a lot of CoS members ignored this. I don't see why the new survey should be pestered more by "Devil worshipping dodos" then the last one, and as I read the results from the last survey, it sure paints a better picture of Satanism then the one painted by the media, Christians and earlier speculations about the nature of Satanism and satanists.

I came to think of another of Lewis' articles that can be read online, and maybe adds to why the CoS is pissed. If anyone wants to read more on his research I could recommend reading http://www.uni-marburg.de/fb03/ivk/mjr/pdfs/2002/articles/lewis2002.pdf

- Amina


Edited by Amina (07/27/09 04:54 AM)

Top
#27563 - 07/27/09 12:45 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
Devil-worshiping dodos? Seriously? Even when the results of the first survey showed that the majority of Satanists were modern/symbolic/atheistic?

I mean, really... here you have a reputable scholar of new religious movements trying his best to study Satanism while at the same time be impartial to any sects or denominations (let's face it, there are sects in the LHP), and we have the most popular and public manifestation of Satanism DENOUNCE this this study because it includes groups other than theirs.

You know, at first I could buy Gilmore's reluctance to give out CoS numbers. I mean, it's his group, so he can do whatever he wants with the paperwork. But based on this, I'm convinced he's hiding something. Not the fact that there are legions of devil-worshipers out there, but that there are legions more of legitimate Satanists out there who don't buy into the CoS. And he's probably afraid of that.
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

Top
#27564 - 07/27/09 01:06 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: The Zebu]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I did the survey and while I expect the teens to add their form of Satanism which they will forget all about in a year or so, I still will look forward to read the new result and see if there have been shifts compared to the previous one. What I expect is the general age of satanists to be higher than before. There is a large disinterest in Satanism compared to years ago (woohoo), so the % of teens might be less while the number of old timers will probably be rather identical.

The only thing that puzzled me a bit was question 37; when giving your attitude to a series of stuff, all of them are either satanic related with the exception of christianity or pagan/wicca. But amazingly only one political direction was added: nazism/neo-nazis. One could wonder why they especially want to know how much in favor that is in Satanism.

If being unbiased, why not ask how much we appreciate socialism or liberalism?

D.

Top
#27565 - 07/27/09 01:35 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Diavolo]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
But amazingly only one political direction was added: nazism/neo-nazis. One could wonder why they especially want to know how much in favor that is in satanism.


I asked Lewis to add the question for two reasons. For one, many in the general public think that Nazism and Satanism is connected, because they are both viewed as "evil". The other reason is that there have been a shift in Nazism in resent years from affiliation to Christianity to affiliation with paganism and occultism. After the Order of Nine Angels, Order of the Left Hand path and other racist groups disappeared years ago, I have a feeling that nazism is on the rise again in Satanism. This would not be a big surprise because Nazism is also on the rice in other pagan and occult groups, but it would be interesting to see if there is a difference in the support of nazism in different satanic groups.

- Amina

Top
#27566 - 07/27/09 01:44 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I did some reading up on Lewis and when googling his name and apologist, one does get some pretty interesting stories that conflict a little with unbiased academic research. It seems he and his buddy Melton do not shy away from er... benefits when promoting giving their unbiased opinion.

This is a fairly interesting unbiased opinion on scientology:

 Quote:
I have observed the Church of Scientology over the past few decades. Its critics have come and gone. It has emerged victorious from struggles with powerful governmental institutions and with organized bigotry. In the wake of every controversy, the Church has grown and prospered.

I have also had the opportunity to interact with ordinary Scientologists in everyday settings. I never fail to be impressed by the solidness, clarity and high ethical standards of Church members. Thus, at both an institutional and an individual level, Scientology has a strength of character that bodes well for its future.

I would finally like to mention that the Church of Scientology has taken responsibility for the surrounding society. Critics never seem to find the room to mention the Church’s work in educational reform, in the fight against drugs, in the publicizing of medical abuse and in other areas of social reform. Thus Scientology continues to work toward a brighter future for all of us, and I, for one, wish the Church every success in its endeavors.

Prof. James R. Lewis
Chairman, Department of
Religious Studies
World University of America


I'm not even gonna comment on that.

Anyways, the right is on the rise in all of Europe and as such, it will no doubt display in the answers of European satanists. But to throw all inclinations towards the right under the label of nazism is nothing but fear mongering. Nazi satanic panic comes to mind.

D.

Top
#27567 - 07/27/09 02:04 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Diavolo]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
It seems he and his buddy Melton do not shy away from er... benefits when promoting giving their unbiased opinion.


If you look in academic literature or magazines, you would soon realize that Lewis and Melton are some of the esteemed experts on new religions. If you study history of religion or sociology of religion, you would probably not be able to avoid reading at least one book or text by those two - I know I did, when I studied the topic of new religious groups (including Scientology) at the university. Melton even wrote on Satanism years ago, but you would probably not be able to google that.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Anyways, the right is on the rise in all of Europe and as such, it will no doubt display in the answers of European satanists. But to throw all inclinations towards the right under the label of nazism is nothing but fear mongering. Nazi satanic panic comes to mind.


The survey also had a question about political affiliation, as far as I remember. Nazism is an issue like vandalism and teen rebellion, because it fits with stereotypes. Investigating if stereotypes fit, makes much sense. If there had been a stereotype about satanists being sympathetic to communism, I would have suggest a question about this too - but there is not.

I am quite sure that the survey will show that nazism is not supported by a majority of satanists, and I am also sure that those satanists who have a right wing political view but do NOT view themselves as racists or nazis will be able to show this in there replays. No one is forcing anyone to show support, if they do not feel supportive. I am also sure that Lawis will compare the results with main stream surveys on political views etc. One needs to compare the satanic population to the general public if one wants to show how satanists differ. If the sympathy for nazism is the same in Satanism as in other groups (mainstream or other religious groups), it will be a point in it self and it will miscredit stereotypes.

- Amina

Top
#27568 - 07/27/09 02:12 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I am not denying he is the leading expert on new religions, I am only pointing out some things are fishy. An unbiased academic promoting Scientology or flying to Japan to defend Aum after the sarin attacks and by evidence shown to be talking out of his ass. All costs involved paid by Aum of course.

A leading expert maybe but fishy for sure.

Qui bono? Such a nice question to ponder upon.

Of course none is forced to add that he likes nazism but nazism is as outdated as devilworship and totally out of context there. Unbiased has a different method than what is displayed in this survey.

D.

Top
#27569 - 07/27/09 02:30 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Diavolo]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I am not denying he is the leading expert on new religions, I am only pointing out some things are fishy.


I have asked Lewis about your quote. I am sure you realize that academics who study new religious groups are being attacked and used by anti cult groups and cults. You can do a google, but you should not trust what you find, unless it is from a reliable source. As far as I can see, your sources are not that great.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Of course none is forced to add that he likes nazism but nazism is as outdated as devilworship and totally out of context there. Unbiased has a different method than what is displayed in this survey.


Eh, so I just imagined the satanists I have talked to who supported nazism or where into devilworship? Or did I just imagine that some people still have a sympathy for groups who worshiped Satan and Hitler together? Even if I did, it would be very, very nice to have the stats to show that I was just imagining those people. That would also be very helpful in fighting general misconceptions about Satanism. Last I checked, the a large part of the public still viewed satanists as insane nazi devilworshippers who eat and sodomize kids for trills.

- Amina

Top
#27570 - 07/27/09 02:34 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3119
 Quote:
I am also sure that Lawis will compare the results with main stream surveys on political views etc. One needs to compare the satanic population to the general public if one wants to show how satanists differ.

I suggest he shouldn't do that. You are working with statistics from a survey whom not everyone might take serious, I.e. the fault on your calculations is HUGE.
Statistics are known to work only for a vast amount of people, i.e. your test group. Knowing there are many dipshits who may give the results a "twist" the result shouldn't be used to give a "global view" on Satanists. (Probably one of the things Gilmore is fearing since they may come out negatively).

Being an academic I can only say that the safest way to have a VALID survey is by sending out letters with the survey whom people must fill out by hand. The survey you (or they) are doing now isn't valid for this reason. Comparing it to make a conclusion about political affilation or views is almost considered a SIN.

On a side-note:
 Quote:
If you look in academic literature or magazines, you would soon realize that Lewis and Melton are some of the esteemed experts on new religions.

Esteemed experts on new religions? Hell, I can even be one too. Exploring and investigating "new religions" is far more simple then investigation of..let's say Christianity and it's roots, new religions are barely shaken or disturbed by opposing groups who had influences and formed a side-branch to this religion.
I would be more impressed if they were esteemed experts on "old religions".. some things are heavy shit to investigate then.


Edited by Dimitri (07/27/09 02:37 PM)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

Top
#27571 - 07/27/09 02:39 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I think the Washington Post could count as slightly reliable when reporting about his paid excursion as a pro-deo for Aum. Of course, they might be very anti-cultic and have made it all up.

My other quote can be found at "whatisscientology.org", hardly able to be accused of being anti-cultic. I doubt he would have let them post a fraud-quotation there. So easily to have it pulled when he would not agree.

So yes my resources might not be that great but they sure beat your phenomenal defense. I just raised some questions about unbiased.

Your misconception about Satanism is biased already because Satanism and nazism (using the global scaremongering label) should be opposites it seems. If I'm wrong in it, feel free to expand.

D.

Top
#27573 - 07/27/09 03:14 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Dimitri]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
I suggest he shouldn't do that. You are working with statistics from a survey whom not everyone might take serious, I.e. the fault on your calculations is HUGE.


And this is different from other surveys in small populations?

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Statistics are known to work only for a vast amount of people, i.e. your test group. Knowing there are many dipshits who may give the results a "twist" the result shouldn't be used to give a "global view" on Satanists.


Dimitri, people who work with minority groups and statistic know this - trust me. In the old survey it was even discussed as a problem that the survey was done on the internet, and because of that excluded all the satanists who did not use the net. It was not possible to solve this problem, but it was of cause thought about in the analysis of the answers.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Being an academic I can only say that the safest way to have a VALID survey is by sending out letters with the survey whom people must fill out by hand. The survey you (or they) are doing now isn't valid for this reason.


No surveys a perfect. You always have to choose between not making a survey at all and depend on pure guesswork, or making the best survey you can. Mailing letters is not an option because Lewis do not have access to mailinfo on all satanists - no one does. Not even the CoS. But this do not make the survey invalid. A lot of surveys are made by phone interviews or by internet surveys, and that IS valid as long as your are aware of the problems involved and take them into account in your analysis.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Esteemed experts on new religions? Hell, I can even be one too. Exploring and investigating "new religions" is far more simple then investigation of..let's say Christianity and it's roots, new religions are barely shaken or disturbed by opposing groups who had influences and formed a side-branch to this religion.


So you think that big universities just hand out professor titles to anyone who asks for one, and that academic books and articles write themselves? I am sure that almost any field looks easy, if you look on it from outside. In Denmark you have to use five and a half year if you want to be a candidate in the field of history of religion. This is the same number of years as if you want to be a candidate i psychology.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
I would be more impressed if they were esteemed experts on "old religions".. some things are heavy shit to investigate then.


I have studied old and new religions. Old religions are the basic stuff everyone study as students in the field, but it is not much fun because every stone has already been turned. Not much new research can be done on dead religions like the Egyptian one or antic Christianity. You work with text analysis and archeology. In those fields, professors use there whole life fighting over the meaning of one hieroglyph or one ritual jar. The study of new religiouns use theories and methods from antropology, sociology and psychology AND the knowlege about old religions, and investigate real living people and new religions as they appear, evolve and sometimes die. If you want to investigate "new land" and make research that makes a difference for the public and for those involved, new religious groups is the field you want to be in.

I know that at least some of the people who research Satanism do it because of a deeply felt interest in replacing misunderstandings with knowledge. Twenty years ago the satanic panic was investigated by sociologists by the same reason, and that also made a difference. I am sure that people like Aquino remembers this.

- Amina

Top
#27574 - 07/27/09 03:29 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Diavolo]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I think the Washington Post could count as slightly reliable when reporting about his paid excursion as a pro-deo for Aum. Of course, they might be very anti-cultic and have made it all up.


You are still quoting out of context. I do not know anything about the specific case, but I know what standing Lewis have in the academic community. If you think he has a bias I would suggest reading some of his academic articles or some of his books.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
My other quote can be found at "whatisscientology.org", hardly able to be accused of being anti-cultic.


And you do not think that Scientology would want to make it look like academics support them more then they do? Cults often do that.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Your misconception about satanism is biased already because satanism and nazism (using the global scaremongering label) should be opposites it seems. If I'm wrong in it, feel free to expand.


Having been a satanist for 15 years I have seen my share of Satanists and misconceptions about Satanism. I have also read all the academic literature and much pro and anti-satanic literature. I am aware that I do not know all about Satanism, or have a good-like picture of the phenomena, but I am also sure that I have noticed a few things. I did not imagine the misconceptions OR the satanists involved in nazism. If you want to view those people as nonsatanists, then YOU are biased. Mu definition of Satanism include all who claim to be satanists, but I also divide Satanism into different KINDS of Satanism.

On the mix of nazism and Satanism I could recomend Mattias Gardells book "Gods of the blod".

- Amina

Top
#27575 - 07/27/09 03:46 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3119
 Quote:
Dimitri, people who work with minority groups and statistic know this - trust me. In the old survey it was even discussed as a problem that the survey was done on the internet, and because of that excluded all the satanists who did not use the net. It was not possible to solve this problem, but it was of cause thought about in the analysis of the answers.

Problems can always be solved, it is almost a lie to say it was impossible to solve. A good solution would be approaching some "head-figures" on Satanic communities or groups and ask them if their members would like to fill out the survey by hand. Risks of having false results is decreased, but other risks might raise.

Btw; any sane and well-thinking person wouldn't repeat a same mistake from a previous survey to see how things are going. There are other methods and other solutions available.

 Quote:

No surveys a perfect. You always have to choose between not making a survey at all and depend on pure guesswork, or making the best survey you can. Mailing letters is not an option because Lewis do not have access to mailinfo on all satanists - no one does. Not even the CoS. But this do not make the survey invalid. A lot of surveys are made by phone interviews or by internet surveys, and that IS valid as long as your are aware of the problems involved and take them into account in your analysis.
When someone has acces to the internet they will likely have an email-adress.. It is just a small amount of energy to ask their email, forward the survey and send the letter to a REAL adress...
Well lo and behold.. isn't this a nice solution? Your group might become a tat smaller but at least the result will be more likely right.

 Quote:
So you think that big universities just hand out professor titles to anyone who asks for one, and that academic books and articles write themselves? I am sure that almost any field looks easy, if you look on it from outside. In Denmark you have to use five and a half year if you want to be a candidate in the field of history of religion. This is the same number of years as if you want to be a candidate i psychology.

Some does.. wasn't there a fuzz about universities handing out degrees online? Aren't their rumours of universities who hand out titles and degrees to the persons with the most money?
Wearing any title doesn't make an impression on any critical thinking human being. Professors only are people also, and normal people can make mistakes and have their own faults. It is not because you wear such a title you automatically become "untouchable". Hell, I even know people who make more sense then some teachers or professors... Not wearing the title of "doctor" or "professor" doesn't take away you have a high brain capacity.

Academic articles don't always hold the truth, it's one of the first things I've learned when going to university. An academic article only gives facts wrapped up in a subjective interpretation and only shares a view which must/might or can be discussed. It's a common mistake to show-off with an academic article to proove your statement to others. You only indicate you share the same view. Nothing more nothing less.

 Quote:
I have studied old and new religions. Old religions are the basic stuff everyone study as students in the field, but it is not much fun because every stone has already been turned.

Wrong, you only have the basic with you, find a field of expertise, indulge in the facts and try to find the "how", "why", "when", and relations. Archeology or study of religions doesn't stop at learning who has written what. It goes a tat further then what you ahve seen. University gives a more advanced base for your field of interest. When reaching and succeeding in getting a degree it is up to you to use the knowledge and search deeper, or just do nothing with it.

The study of new religions is much more easier in my opinion since their basics are more easily linked to the different religious streams in which the founder(s) or idea has been born or based upon.

 Quote:
I know that at least some of the people who research satanism do it because of a deeply felt interest in replacing misunderstandings with knowledge.

Subjective views against objective facts...
Theistic Satanists will claim "we" have a misunderstanding of Satanism, and "we" might say otherwise. Point is: you should look every group on itself and point out the facts in each of them for what they believe in. The results of this Survey (IMO) can only be used to see the different percentages of Satanists on the internet. Nothing more. Using it to make correlations between political affilations will fail automatically and will receive lots of critics. Even using this survey as a tool to "blow away the misconceptions about Satanism" is bad. A good choice would be cutting the survey up in different parts (in this case per sort of Satanic belief).


Edited by Dimitri (07/27/09 03:51 PM)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

Top
#27576 - 07/27/09 03:53 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Check this link: cult apologetics

It's of course one of the many pages out there and could be seen as not that credible but they have links enough to studies or reports or news articles that are credible. Dismissing it all as anti-something by definition is hardly logical.
Anyways, I hardly care if he is getting lunch money from others but it isn't bad to ponder about how credible he is and how unbiased everything in the end is.

I personally prefer misconceptions about Satanism. I think the satanic panic is at some levels the best that ever happened to Satanism. Silly I fully agree but it does have its charming side effects. There is no reason to inform the public how pretty and fluffy Satanism is because if the public should agree on that, Satanism did make a wrong turn somewhere.

I don't see where I am saying that satanists that are nazis are not satanists? I assume you misread something. There are a lot of branches in Satanism and although I at times prefer to call them non-satanic, I think it is better to consider them satanic idiots. JoS as spearhead without a doubt. But they still are entitled as much as I to the label. But satanic nazis in the traditional 88 sense I haven't met too much. I'm ten years on this board enduring wave after wave of all sorts of satanists, most short-lasting I admit but I hardly remember one claiming to be a nazi. In the traditional sense of course. Anyways, nazi and fascism is debated elsewhere here so I am not going to invest time in it too much longer.

Thanks for the book tip, I'll check it out.

D.

Top
#27577 - 07/27/09 04:21 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Dimitri]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Problems can always be solved, it is almost a lie to say it was impossible to solve. A good solution would be approaching some "head-figures" on Satanic communities or groups and ask them if their members would like to fill out the survey by hand. Risks of having false results is decreased, but other risks might raise.


I do not think all organizations would want to take part in this, not all satanists are members of an org or would want to tell there adresses to anyone, it would be very expensive (remember, the satanic population live around the whole world!) etc. In Denmark, we mailed questionnaires to our own members, but only few responded by letter. It was very expensive to send out the letters, and in the end, most preferred to replay using the Internet survey. If Lewis was to use snailmail, someone would have to pay the cost of sending out 1000 letters or so with stamped replay envelopes to like 50 different countries. And he would also have to count in, that a lot of organizations inflate there numbers and asks for a bigger number of questionnaires then they need, and probably fill them out themselves. It is better to deal directly with the respondents then depend on organizations in my opinion.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
There are other methods and other solutions available.


Any specific suggestions?

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
When someone has acces to the internet they will likely have an email-adress.. It is just a small amount of energy to ask their email, forward the survey and send the letter to a REAL adress...


Problem: people do usually not want to hand out there real address, and in my experience, the respondents actually prefer answering on the internet.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Well lo and behold.. isn't this a nice solution? Your group might become a tat smaller but at least the result will be more likely right.


How? People can still cheat.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Some does.. wasn't there a fuzz about universities handing out degrees online?


As i said BIG universities. Lewis is a professor in the Department of Philosophy at the University of Wisconsin. Look up his contribution to the bookshelves and notice the publishers who have published his books. Or go to google and look him up at google scholar.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Wearing any title doesn't make an impression on any critical thinking human being. Professors only are people also, and normal people can make mistakes and have their own faults.


See above.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
The study of new religions is much more easier in my opinion since their basics are more easily linked to the different religious streams in which the founder(s) or idea has been born or based upon.


A topic always looks more simple from outside.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
A good choice would be cutting the survey up in different parts (in this case per sort of Satanic belief).


People are asked about affiliation. This make it possible to say something in general AND say something about specific groups. You could as an example look at affiliation and see if the ToS or the FCOS has most female members taking the survey. Of cause you are unable to say much about those who did not take part in the survey, but that is always a problem with surveys. In my opinion, the first survey was more useful then pour guesswork, and I am sure this one will be too. AND the survey is not the only way researchers are investigating Satanism - other research have been done analyzing official webpages, posts at messagebords, articles and books written by satanists etc. I really wish that people would read some of the books that have been published already.

- Amina

Top
#27586 - 07/28/09 01:37 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3119
 Quote:
Problem: people do usually not want to hand out there real address, and in my experience, the respondents actually prefer answering on the internet.

Read a bit closer Amina: I said they should ask the email adress, send the survey to that adress and ask the participant if they would like to send it back to a real adress (no digital one). It saves money for the person who is taking off the survey...

 Quote:
If Lewis was to use snailmail, someone would have to pay the cost of sending out 1000 letters or so with stamped replay envelopes to like 50 different countries.

Didn't you claim he is working for a BIG university? Such things are payed back or can be brought to account in taxes.. it get's payed back, especially if you are a well-esteemed expert in your branch. ;\)

 Quote:
How? People can still cheat.

Read again, I didn't say it would be 100% more accurate, I only said it will be less likely they'll cheat. Small difference from what you thought to have read, neverless an important difference.

Rest of your answer:
If you really want to believe and see professors as gods, go ahead, I don't care. But keep in mind they will also make mistakes. And the best back-up I have to proove it is that every new discovery in science is being verified by a group of people and never by 1 person only. Even so, professors in the same branch will have diverse discussions on a topic because of the conflicting views and interpretations on a fact. It's not because you don't get a thing what they are talking about and assume they are right that they indeed are right.

 Quote:
A topic always looks more simple from outside.

I agree with that, but sadly enough I am speaking from experience by personal interest. Not to boost my ego, but I have already prooven in my direct envirronement I can follow and discuss religion on an academic level.

What intrigues me more is that despite the survey not becoming on to an end, you already seem to know the results. Even so, you already seem to draw conclusions from non-existing results from this second survey. Care to elaborate?

on a last note:
 Quote:
I really wish that people would read some of the books that have been published already.

If a product is good it will sell itself...
I'm a pain in the ass I know, but at least we are keeping it nice. Kudos for that ;\)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

Top
#27593 - 07/28/09 04:21 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Dimitri]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
I said they should ask the email adress, send the survey to that adress and ask the participant if they would like to send it back to a real adress (no digital one). It saves money for the person who is taking off the survey...


I have five e-mail addresses and some use even more. How would this keep people from answering more then once? Doing the survey on the internet is much easier, and you do not need all the work sending out e-mails to several hundred people and typing in there answers after you get there replays. I have worked with surveys as a student aid. We never made surveys that way. One of the reasons being that it had a too low respond raid. People can be convinced to take part in an online survey or answer questions on the phone, but if they have to use time an money to mail a letter, almost no one replays - and the few who do will not be representative. If you want answers from handwritten replays, you need to make it easier to hand in the answers - and that is a bit hard when people live all around the world.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Read again, I didn't say it would be 100% more accurate, I only said it will be less likely they'll cheat.


But why do you think that? As I said, many people have more then one e-mail address, and new ones can be made in minutes. Using a service that log IP addresses is safer. Not bullet proof, but safer.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
If you really want to believe and see professors as gods, go ahead, I don't care.


This is not the issue. The issue is that people try to discredit someone and his field without the proper knowledge about the field and the man. The CoS did that eight years ago and they are doing it again now, but they have an clear agenda. I am not part of his fan club or something like that, but having been a student in the same field for many years, I have some idea about who is an authority, and how to evaluate someones work in the field. Look at the books he has published already, especially the books on Satanism, and use those to decide if you trust him - not some google search on the internet. I think it is really important that this kind of work is done, and I hope that as many as possible answer the survey without listening to the CoS or others who have hidden agendas. If you or others have serious questions about the survey or suggestions on how to improve it I recommend you address those to Lewis himself. As far as I can see, some of you people think they know more then him about how to do surveys and study religion (sigh), so I am sure he would be very happy about the help (sarcasm).


 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
But keep in mind they will also make mistakes. And the best back-up I have to proove it is that every new discovery in science is being verified by a group of people and never by 1 person only. Even so, professors in the same branch will have diverse discussions on a topic because of the conflicting views and interpretations on a fact. It's not because you don't get a thing what they are talking about and assume they are right that they indeed are right.


Duh, who do not know this? But this is not the issue at hand.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
What intrigues me more is that despite the survey not becoming on to an end, you already seem to know the results. Even so, you already seem to draw conclusions from non-existing results from this second survey. Care to elaborate?


I do not know the results, but I do not expect it to differ that much from the last one, and I also expect it to reflect much of what one can see if one take a look at what goes on in Satanism. I don't think we are surrounded by closet nazi dewilworshippers who eat children in the weekends.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
If a product is good it will sell itself...


In Denmark, satanists often have an interest in reading academic books on Satanism and related topics. I have not seen the same trend in the US. Sometimes i wonder if people even READ books in the US.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
I'm a pain in the ass I know, but at least we are keeping it nice. Kudos for that ;\)


I am just wondering about your agenda. If you want to help Lewis do a better survey, I would think you would write him with suggestions for the next survey. What I see is someone trying to discourage people from taking part in the survey, and I don't think I like that.

- Amina

Top
#27594 - 07/28/09 04:36 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Your getting out of line Amina.
No need to drop to mocking American, and how much they read.
It doesn't bear in line with the topic.
Plus, you don't honestly know what many American satanist read.

Dimitri is from Belgium, he is not from the USA.

Otherwise, carry on....

Morgan

ps.
I know I'm not a mod, but its 4:30am.
Please bear with me.


Edited by Morgan (07/28/09 04:37 AM)
Edit Reason: tried to be polite
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



Top
#27595 - 07/28/09 04:46 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
wolf Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/27/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
Maybe Gilmore is scared that the number of "unaffiliated Satanists" that participate in the survey will trump the number of those who state their affiliation with CoS, which will make "his" organization seem less powerful than they would like people to think they are.

Therefore, by urging CoS members to boycott this survey [...] CoS will be viewed the only true Satanists who are too elite to participate in a survey, and, like custard, can't be nailed to a wall.

I don't think that is the reason. At the time I was a member of the Church of Satan, it was very important to the Church of Satan that other kinds of Satanism were never acknowledged as valid definitions. If this happened, the Church of Satan would lose its ownership of the term and would have to compete on equal foot with other Satanic organizations. If the Church of Satan openly acknowledged that other kinds of Satanism were valid definitions, then the Church of Satan could no longer claim its unique ownership of the term. This would be highly problematic to the Church of Satan, since all they have to offer that other organizations can't offer is LaVey's legacy.

The refusal of the Church of Satan to engage in any study or participate on web sites that recognized other kinds of Satanism was sheer politics: it was a battle for authority and ownership of the term "Satanism," and probably still is.

Top
#27596 - 07/28/09 07:27 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Morgan]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Your getting out of line Amina.
No need to drop to mocking American, and how much they read.


I am sorry. I am just a bit tiered of Dimitries attitude, and I think it would help a bit if people actually read the research made on Satanism by Lewis and others, before they try to attack his character or his work - or try to read some of the serious research made before 2001 (it is almost nonexistent, and that is a point in itself). In my view, Satanism is among other things about knowledge, rational thinking and being able to recognize expertise. Attacking false authorities and dogmas and questioning everything is important, but sometimes it becomes plain silly - especially if people overestimate there own knowledge and expertise.

Blaming Americans for Dimitries shortcomings is not fair, but on the other hand I have not met the same attitude towards academic work in the US as I am used to in Denmark. In the old survey it looked like satanist read more books then the general population in the US, but I don't think I remember ever talking to a satanist who had read one of the new academic books on Satanism. I would be very happy to be proved wrong, and even more happy if some of the people who have actually read the books would try to inform Dimitri about the contend and how they evaluated the quality of the books.

- Amina

Top
#27597 - 07/28/09 07:33 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
 Quote:
Blaming Americans for Dimitries shortcomings is not fair, but on the other hand I have not met the same attitude towards academic work in the US as I am used to in Denmark.

Of course it isn't fair. If you'd read all of Morgan's post, which said, "Dimitri is from Belgium, he is not from the USA.", you'd see that you're misdirecting your frustration at the wrong country.
_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

Top
#27602 - 07/28/09 09:22 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Nemesis]
Jake999 Offline
senior member


Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
AND you're stereotyping ALL Satanists (other than apparently those in Denmark, where you seem to feel that the whole of real civilization lies.)

You've been a Satanist for 15 years and you seem to find Nazis everywhere. I've been a Satanist for damn near 40, and I find it's an aberration amongst those I've known or corresponded with; and that would be quite a few from many areas around the world. I will grant you, however, that the issue of Satanism and Naziism has been around since the earliest days of the Church, when the news media locked on to the prominence of red and black as colors favored in its symbolism. There was an open complaint by its detractors that one never saw "blacks or jews" in the Church of Satan membership.

LaVey's pithy comment about this in The Cloven Hoof was "they were apparently too busy counting dark skins and hooked noses." Of course there were (and are) blacks in The Church of Satan. The most notable was Sammy Davis Jr. And no, there are no Jews in The Church of Satan. There are no Catholics in The Church of Satan. There are no Protestants in The Church of Satan. There are no Muslims in The Church of Satan. The Church of Satan is composed of ... wait for it... SATANISTS.

And although they are a statistic blip in on the radar screen in any worldwide Satanic "movement," certainly one will find those who might choose National Socialism as a political vehicle, or they might be a Republican, a Democrat, a Libertarian, a member of the Green Party, an Anarchist. Personal choice in religion hardly equates to personal choice in politics. I am personally a Republican. Try to stereotype ME based on that and my religious affiliations, and you'd end up looking quite silly indeed.

Dimitri has a mind of his own and is as entitled to it as you are to yours, independent of his country of residence. While he is from Belgium, as is Diavolo, we also have members from the UK, Norway, the US and many other places around the world, including Denmark. And none of them wears the mantel of supremacy in thought or in standing within "the Satanic community." They're all individuals, capable of free thought, and whether that thought corresponds to yours is hit or miss. They don't HAVE to agree with you. They don't HAVE to believe you. And they don't HAVE to accept your "authority," such that it is, based on what you write on the computer screen.

I find it interesting, and while you seem totally enamored of Lewis and others who're so active in this field, you're coming off as someone who's mind is already made up as to what must be. That has caused many an honest researcher "cook the books" and force findings to fit their agenda. I'd urge continued research, but back off from the stereotyping and the prejudice. They only taint any semblance of impartiality in academia.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


Top
#27604 - 07/28/09 10:15 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3119
 Quote:
If you want answers from handwritten replays, you need to make it easier to hand in the answers - and that is a bit hard when people live all around the world.

After answering with my previous post, this problem also came to mind while going to my job.
The only conclusion I can draw is that things have and are taken way to big. It would have been more thougtfull if it was limited by country per country. First the results of Denmark, then from the neighbouring countries, then other countries and so on. Some countries will disagree to elaborate on the survey, while others will do so. This on itself would be also intersting to see the countries's idea about Satanism and it's exact position.

 Quote:
The issue is that people try to discredit someone and his field without the proper knowledge about the field and the man. The CoS did that eight years ago and they are doing it again now, but they have an clear agenda. I am not part of his fan club or something like that, but having been a student in the same field for many years, I have some idea about who is an authority, and how to evaluate someones work in the field.

I'm not trying to discredit him or any other fellow, I only state thet you should keep your bullshit filters and critical mind online.
Within my branch of studies I also have persons who have authority in their specific branch. Does it mean I'll have to accept everything he said? No, no and no. When he comes up with an idea or found something new I still have to keep my bullshit filters on. Just to check if he indeed has made no mistakes and manipulated his results. Same applies for the persons you have described and the attitude I recommend you to wear. I have read a few lines and paragraphs of these persons, and altough he makes sense, I'm not going to accept everything he publishes. And certainly with this survey where he IMO (and any other critical thinker) already made a few huge mistakes which I already pointed out.

 Quote:
As far as I can see, some of you people think they know more then him about how to do surveys and study religion (sigh), so I am sure he would be very happy about the help (sarcasm).

I'm not claiming to know more about surveys, only pointing out a few weaknesses which he will be confronted with. I still have the ability to speak my mind don't ya think? If you don't like to read critisism about it, just ignore it.
Tired of my attitude? Only holding a little discussion where our views oppose a bit.

 Quote:

I am just wondering about your agenda. If you want to help Lewis do a better survey, I would think you would write him with suggestions for the next survey. What I see is someone trying to discourage people from taking part in the survey, and I don't think I like that.

My danish isn't that good, and I'm not feeling inclined to help out someone without something in it for me.
I'm also not discouraging people, only giving some constructive critisism. If I wanted to take it down or discourage people I would make up a few things to do so.
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

Top
#27610 - 07/28/09 01:34 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Dimitri]
wolf Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/27/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Within my branch of studies I also have persons who have authority in their specific branch. Does it mean I'll have to accept everything he said? No, no and no. When he comes up with an idea or found something new I still have to keep my bullshit filters on. Just to check if he indeed has made no mistakes and manipulated his results. Same applies for the persons you have described and the attitude I recommend you to wear.

Yes, it is generally a good idea to apply one's critical sense. Surveys are always prone to inaccurate data, and require careful analysis. An experienced researcher will know what to look out for, and how to identify trends by properly interpreting the submitted answers.

That said, lay man's critical sense is rarely applicable to the work of experts. For example, if Joe Schmoe, who never prepared a meal, is critical of the master chef's methods, chances are that Joe Average simply doesn't have a clue. Or, if a white-belt martial artist tells me I'm doing a particular technique wrong, chances are that the white-belt student is unaware that I'm simply making a perfectly valid variation of the technique. These people aren't necessarily stupid; they're just lay man like we all are in most fields. By the same token (and this is about as diplomatic as I can possibly get) the odds of you being able to provide any criticism that either hasn't already been considered or doesn't apply to the survey are very low, given your age and thus limited education.

The questionnaires are being answered as we speak, and James Lewis is hardly going to withdraw the survey only to resubmit it according to your or others' suggestions. Rather than complaining about how it should have been, I suggest you be constructive instead and provide suggestions on how to interpret the submitted answers, preferably by demonstrating that you know what Lewis intends to use the survey for to begin with.

Top
#27613 - 07/28/09 02:01 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: wolf]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3119
 Quote:
The questionnaires are being answered as we speak, and James Lewis is hardly going to withdraw the survey only to resubmit it according to your or others' suggestions. Rather than complaining about how it should have been, I suggest you be constructive instead and provide suggestions on how to interpret the submitted answers, preferably by demonstrating that you know what Lewis intends to use the survey for to begin with.

On the mere look of your profile I can assume you are probably one of Amina's friends who doesn't like critcs also.
This is a Satanic forum, everyone has it's own opinion. So my opinion is that I suggest to keep your mouth shut and reread my responses thoroughly. It clearly shows I'm only poking a few weak aspects which need improvement or should have been improved since the last survey. No demotivation or calling up people to boycot it.... Learn to read and think before commenting.

I have been constructive enough to point out the weak aspects which will clearly float again after the whole survey has been done and your beloved professor will have to deal with.

Also, don't just assume I'm not experienced when it comes to surveys and statistics. Fact is; I've done a few Surveys myself within the last 5 years, maybe not that much as some others did, but enough to point out basic mistakes which can be made. Sadly enough this guy has made plenty of them. Academic "experience"/level or not, I still have the ability to notice bullshit, mistakes and errors by common sense, own background and references with other sources.


Edited by Dimitri (07/28/09 02:05 PM)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

Top
#27616 - 07/28/09 02:50 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Dimitri]
wolf Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/27/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
On the mere look of your profile I can assume you are probably one of Amina's friends who doesn't like critcs also.

You don't have enough data to form an assumption of my attitude towards critics (or is that how you form opinions?). Criticism from people that have no knowledge in the field that they criticize is usually not criticism at all but rather that very bullshit that you (as do we) want eliminated. James Lewis had already passed the survey to a number of experts and received the necessary criticism before publishing it. If Lewis had wanted your opinion, he'd have asked you. You're not criticizing; you're making noise.

 Quote:
This is a Satanic forum, everyone has it's own opinion. So my opinion is that I suggest to keep your mouth shut and reread my responses thoroughly.

Opinions aren't equal, and in your position it would be prudent to consider whether you have sufficient qualifications to form one to begin with. I suggest you moderate your language and speak as if we stood right next to each other.

 Quote:
Academic "experience"/level or not, I still have the ability to notice bullshit, mistakes and errors by common sense, own background and references with other sources.

Let me put it like this: I've learned through my work as a university lecturer that over-confident students rarely get the best grades. Those half-studied students know just enough to impress their less educated friends, but in the eyes of those that are fully trained, they just make fools of themselves.

Top
#27619 - 07/28/09 03:08 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: wolf]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3119
 Quote:
You don't have enough data to form an assumption of my attitude towards critics (or is that how you form opinions?). Criticism from people that have no knowledge in the field that they criticize is usually not criticism at all but rather that very bullshit that you (as do we) want eliminated. James Lewis had already passed the survey to a number of experts and received the necessary criticism before publishing it. If Lewis had wanted your opinion, he'd have asked you. You're not criticizing; you're making noise.

I actually have enough data about your person.. The internet is quite a waste bin you know. A quick search on your name came up with enough results to form a nice conclusion. It's fun to see you and Amina time by time appearing next to each other.. dating?
Also my dear friend, you don't have any background about my personality or interests, except from the information I gave away here.
So now you claim he did pass out his survey to a few experts? Names please, I seldom accept statements without back-up. Or are you one of the "experts", if that's so: you didn't do a very well good job....

 Quote:
Let me put it like this: I've learned through my work as a university lecturer that over-confident students rarely get the best grades. Those half-studied students know just enough to impress their less educated friends, but in the eyes of those that are fully trained, they just make fools of themselves.

And from what I know is that most self-confident students in the end get a better payment then the professor since they had enough brains to put the knowledge into practice with better results, or even could find something mind-changing with their confidence...
Empty posturing impresses hardly.

I'm gonna leave this topic for now, it's turning into a mud-slinging contest and I like to keep my clothes clean. However, you are standing in a weak position since your sudden appearance and obvious links with amina only state she called for "back-up" since she couldn't handle things. Bad idea to send an unarmed soldier to a war...
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

Top
#27620 - 07/28/09 03:09 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: wolf]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Seriously Ole Wolf, who cares if the survey is done perfect or not. It's the internet so it'll be fucked up anyways, especially because the questionnaire will be answered by a shitload of people that barely know how to spell Satan and have no deeper knowledge behind it than the idea it's that red guy with the horns who gets all the cool chicks.

Anyone long enough on the Internet will know that the biggest part of Internet Satanism doesn't even qualify as religion or cult because it's nothing but bored teens or wanna look evil school kids.

So the how of the survey isn't worth too much debate.

D.

Top
#27646 - 07/28/09 05:53 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Dimitri]
wolf Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/27/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
I'm gonna leave this topic for now, it's turning into a mud-slinging contest and I like to keep my clothes clean. However, you are standing in a weak position since your sudden appearance and obvious links with amina only state she called for "back-up" since she couldn't handle things. Bad idea to send an unarmed soldier to a war...

Dimitri, the mud slinging started only with your ad hominem attacks and your foul language.

Amina and I have lived together for 10 years and have children together. I declared myself a Satanist before you were even born. Amina and I have appeared in numerous interviews together. I would hardly call this a "sudden appearance." I've never participated on this particular board earlier, but Amina certainly didn't ask me to help against you, as if that were necessary. This will probably hurt your grossly inflated self-perception a bit, but my reason for joining this message board had nothing to do with you. I merely wanted to post my message about the Church of Satan's usual reaction to research that dares to suggest that the Church of Satan doesn't own the term "Satanism." However, I'm sure some of the very long-time members here remember us and, unlike relative newcomers, don't need Google to determine who we are. It is also important only for ad hominem attacks.

 Quote:
And from what I know is that most self-confident students in the end get a better payment then the professor since they had enough brains to put the knowledge into practice with better results, or even could find something mind-changing with their confidence...

Then you know very little; professors and people in so-called professional positions (such as myself) are motivated by highly different things. I'm not working as a professional because I'm somehow smarter than my former professors, but because I have other interests than they. And, overly self-confident employees tend to get added to the lay-off lists at work; you'll find out soon enough if you behave at work as you behave here.

If you had really wanted to provide constructive criticism on Lewis' survey, you would simply have emailed your criticism to him. Instead, you decided to post it here where it serves no purpose other than to detract people from participating in the survey. One old Satanist referred to such behavior as "shit-disturbing."

Top
#27649 - 07/28/09 06:13 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: wolf]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Honestly Wolf, you are out of line.

You have taken this thread off line into a personal attack mode.

If you and Amira are not used to being questioned, you might be in the wrong place.

Everything such as presented is questioned. To take any kind of survey at face value is silly.

"I merely wanted to post my message about the Church of Satan's usual reaction to research that dares to suggest that the Church of Satan doesn't own the term "Satanism." However, I'm sure some of the very long-time members here remember us and, unlike relative newcomers, don't need Google to determine who we are. It is also important only for ad hominem attacks."

No one cares who you are. You may be someone in Demark, but here, you are just like everyone else, nobody. You are not a special snowflake until your posts are intelligent and recognized as such by large number of members. I don't remember you ever posting, and Amera your wife comes and goes through here. Hardly worth remembering at times.

No one here really cares about the current CoS. If you took the time to read this forum before jumping in, you might understand that better.

At this point, I am going to take you and your wife's lack of common respect in replying to questions as a matter of a language barrier. Since English is not your native language.

Oh, and it did look like you jumped into save her.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



Top
#27656 - 07/28/09 09:46 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: Amina
What I see is someone trying to discourage people from taking part in the survey, and I don't think I like that.

Ah finally the words needed to unlock my reply to this hogwash.

I am god and I can be a wonderful god or I could be a god who smites anyone on a whim. I am the devil I can be as of your family or I can thrust you out into the cold and dark with no feeling of regret or worry as to your well being. I am the creator of gods and fantastical realms. I am also the destroyer and can be responsible for many deaths and much destruction. I am the beginning and the end nothing before me really mattered, as anything after me will not matter. All this and more I can describe with only one title……. MAN (human). How would you define a Satanist again?

Since when did it become our duty to stand up and be counted? To define and demystify Satanism so the average Internet idiot can sit and Google search to find an answer to such a question? People like you disgust me, both you and your husband walking in here like you are some crowned prince and princess of Satanism. Fucking clueless. Thinking you (insert name here) could be one who helps shape the definition or understanding of Satanism. Striving to try to be the next LaVey the next great voice of Satanism. I scoff at such ignorance, such is the way of the average neophyte.

I agree with the CoS stance on not participating in this study or any other for that matter. But then I am not one who worries how recognized I am in any online community. I do find it amusing and worrisome just how many of you feel and submit to the need to be counted. Line up and get your ear tagged don’t worry you are number 666.

Perhaps in my spare time I just might fill out a few dozen of this survey to screw up the results a bit. Maybe start a myspace, youtube, facebook campaign and enlist some of these young misguided adults and children to help. Ah if I was only a youth again all the time I could have put into this.

Such is the way of a true adversary.

Have a nice day.

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

Top
#27658 - 07/28/09 10:13 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Dimitri]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Ah Dimitri so much thought and time put into this. Most surveys are incorrect as any data can be manipulated. I mean seriously if I were to embark on a smear campaign (if it really mattered to me) to ruin this survey how hard would it really be?

Did you know that in 2001 the census for England and Wales shows that 390,000 are Jedi?

This Satanic survey is a joke and being done for whatever reasons the person doing it has. Whatever his reasons it will not likely benefit any of us in any way.

Enjoy yourself

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

Top
#27667 - 07/29/09 12:20 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: wolf]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
Big Slick
active member


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
Really? Who the fuck cares? It's an online survey. Just like the 100's I get on Myspace and Facebook. Which car are you? Which color are you? Which tarot card are you? This is scientific study? This is of importance? I took the survey because I was bored and the questions(most of them) seemed intelligently asked. As others have rationally pointed out, this survey is not the "be all, end all" survey to define Satanists or Satanic trends.

There is no need to get our panties in a bunch about it and come out swinging. Participate or not. Answer honestly or not. What's it matter?

Like Ta2zz alluded to, I could take this survey multiple times, using multiple computers, from multiple locations, using multiple accounts, and answer differently each time. BFD!!!!
_________________________
Beer, the reason I get up every afternoon.

Top
#27675 - 07/29/09 01:08 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: wolf]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Originally Posted By: wolf
I don't think that is the reason. At the time I was a member of the Church of Satan, it was very important to the Church of Satan that other kinds of Satanism were never acknowledged as valid definitions. If this happened, the Church of Satan would lose its ownership of the term and would have to compete on equal foot with other Satanic organizations. If the Church of Satan openly acknowledged that other kinds of Satanism were valid definitions, then the Church of Satan could no longer claim its unique ownership of the term. This would be highly problematic to the Church of Satan, since all they have to offer that other organizations can't offer is LaVey's legacy.

The refusal of the Church of Satan to engage in any study or participate on web sites that recognized other kinds of Satanism was sheer politics: it was a battle for authority and ownership of the term "Satanism," and probably still is.


Wow, I think that is the most amount of times anyone has ever said "Church of Satan" in a post. Odd thing to point out, I know, but there it is.

That being said; I really don't think CoS does have ownership of the term "Satanism". I wouldn't be surprised if they, and by "they" I of course mean Gilmore, would like to claim ownership of the word. If they did indeed own the rights to that word and its definition, a lot of people would be paying royalties to CoS for use of the word.

I also don't think CoS will ever have to "compete on equal foot with other Satanic organizations". What other "Satanic organizations" actually exist out there, aside from FSC? Let me point out that I am not talking about organizations like JoS, or "Satanic Sam's Super Satanic Sinagogue", that really only "exist" on line.

While I agree that all they have to offer is LaVey's legacy, I do not agree they are the only ones who can offer that. I am sure Karla LaVey's FSC captures it well. (If not better since all CoS seems to care about is ownership of a silly word)

If this "competition" is indeed about the ownership of a word; then who fucking cares anyway? Satanism is to be lived, it doesn't matter how many books you've read, what church you belong to or how many Enochian Keys you can recite from memory. There are people who live by Satanic prinicples without ever having read TSB or any other related literature. It is not the name that it is important, it is the idea and how you put it into practice that matters.

If you care about the ownership of the word Satanism, I think you are missing the point.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

Top
#27815 - 08/02/09 03:56 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Morgan]
wolf Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/27/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Honestly Wolf, you are out of line.

You have taken this thread off line into a personal attack mode.

Please address that complaint to Dimitri, who launched his ad hominem attack and disrespectful reply to begin with.

 Quote:
No one cares who you are. You may be someone in Demark, but here, you are just like everyone else, nobody.

It isn't about me, but about Dimitri showing that he doesn't know his who's who before launching an ad hominem attack against someone.

 Quote:
I don't remember you ever posting, and Amera your wife comes and goes through here. Hardly worth remembering at times.

Then allow me to remind you that this board isn't all the Satanism that exists.

Top
#27816 - 08/02/09 04:12 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: fakepropht]
wolf Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/27/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: fakepropht
I could take this survey multiple times, using multiple computers, from multiple locations, using multiple accounts, and answer differently each time. BFD!!!!

Sure it's possible to cheat. Lots of bozos might also complete the survey and thus show that Satanists in general are a stupid bunch. But then, surveys are inherently inaccurate, and a skilled researcher will generally be able to analyze the submitted answers and determine a general trend, deliberate obstruction attempts or not. Should lots of bozos and few others decide to complete the survey, then perhaps most Satanists really are idiots.

Surveys such as this one might help us realize what kind of "group" we are, differences aside. I recall that his 2001 survey provided the first statistical data showing that Satanism are more than just confused teens, and that Satanists aren't the they a bunch of losers they were often made to be by our enemies.
_________________________
A comfortable falsehood will always win out over an uncomfortable truth. (Myself)

Top
#27817 - 08/02/09 04:12 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: ta2zz]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: ta2zz
This Satanic survey is a joke and being done for whatever reasons the person doing it has. Whatever his reasons it will not likely benefit any of us in any way.


One can make all kinds of guesses as to the quality of research and the intention of the people who do it. As stated before, I suggest that people actually read and evaluate the research done before 2000 and after 2000. Knowledge being better then belief and all that... One will find that almost all the serious research has been published after 2000, and that Lewis has had some sort of connection to it. One can have all kinds of different reasons for not wanting research done on Satanism, but I for one values knowledge over misconceptions, stereotypes and misinformation. Lewis' survey is not the biggest gift to humankind, but IMO it is still a lot better then guesswork or deliberate misinformation.

What do we have to hide? Some are scared that the survey will show how internetsatanists are, but who are we kidding? Do people really think that researchers are not reading boards, e-lists and all the other forums? In the old days of anthropology the joke was that every native American family included an anthropologist. With the amount of people studying Satanism these days, and the relative small amount of big forums connected to Satanism, I am sure that all the bigger forums have several people following the debate and studying it. I know that this board is no exception.

*waves to the researchers she know are watching the debate*

- Amina

Top
#27824 - 08/02/09 05:36 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Jake999]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
AND you're stereotyping ALL Satanists


No I am not. I was curious about how many satanists sympathize with nazism and neo nazism. I know some do, and I know older groups like The Order of the Left Hand Path and Order of Nine Angels did. I can also see that some of the users on this board sympathize with the ONA (without knowing if this also shows a sympathy towards nazism in any form). Looking at old issues of Black Flame I also see satanists mixing racism, nazism and Satanism. Reading up on nazism and paganism I can see a change from mixing christianity and nazism to mixing paganism and nazism, and I am curious if this also will affect Satanism. This survey will probably not be able to show a change (I do not think we have any old data to compare with), but it will show something, and the data can be compared with new surveys and other research.

I DID stereotype satanists when I complained about American satanists not reading academic work on Satanism, but this is my experience. I would be very happy to be proved wrong on this point.

 Originally Posted By: Jake999
(other than apparently those in Denmark, where you seem to feel that the whole of real civilization lies.)


I don't think we are more civilized, but from my experience we have another opinion *on research*. Maybe because the land is smaller and a lot of us have met those who study Satanism in Scandinavia and talked to them, or read there work or interviews in the media. A few years back we had yearly "satanic summer camp" with most of the active satanist in Denmark attending, and we invited one of the academic experts on Satanism (a Dane) to visit us and talk about his work, so most of us know him or know of him. We have also had other researchers visit us and stay with us like Søderlind who wrote the book "Lords of Chaos" together with Michael Moynihan, and researchers add to the discussions on Danish forums.

I think it makes a difference that I have used the last 8 years studying in the same academia field as those who study Satanism, but I still think I see a difference in attitude in Denmark/Scandinavia and in the US. In my experience it is as if Americans don't even think religion can or should be studied like any other cultural field. In Denmark, history of religion (that is the atheistic study of religion as a man made cultural system) is part of a lot of peoples high school education - maybe that is the difference? I know I am generalizing now, but as stated this is my *experience*, not anything supported by surveys or other data.

 Originally Posted By: Jake999
You've been a Satanist for 15 years and you seem to find Nazis everywhere.


No I do not. Se my explanation above.

 Originally Posted By: Jake999
I've been a Satanist for damn near 40, and I find it's an aberration amongst those I've known or corresponded with; and that would be quite a few from many areas around the world. I will grant you, however, that the issue of Satanism and Naziism has been around since the earliest days of the Church, when the news media locked on to the prominence of red and black as colors favored in its symbolism. There was an open complaint by its detractors that one never saw "blacks or jews" in the Church of Satan membership.


I do not disagree with you. This also corresponds to what I have seen and/or read.

 Originally Posted By: Jake999
And although they are a statistic blip in on the radar screen in any worldwide Satanic "movement," certainly one will find those who might choose National Socialism as a political vehicle, or they might be a Republican, a Democrat, a Libertarian, a member of the Green Party, an Anarchist.


My personal experience AND the last survey showed this too. I would be surprised if it is different this time.

 Originally Posted By: Jake999
I find it interesting, and while you seem totally enamored of Lewis and others who're so active in this field,


I am in the same field, and I am a bit frustrated about some of the misconceptions about how research is done in the field etc. Some of it is just plain silly.

 Originally Posted By: Jake999
you're coming off as someone who's mind is already made up as to what must be. That has caused many an honest researcher "cook the books" and force findings to fit their agenda. I'd urge continued research, but back off from the stereotyping and the prejudice. They only taint any semblance of impartiality in academia.


One way to dissolve stereotypes is to investigate them. One of the stereotypes Lewis investigated last time is the misconception that most satanists are teens who rabel against there parents, and that Satanism is just a flick for most. Lewis already knew enough about Satanism to view this as an misconception, but by including questions about age, number of years involved in Satanism etc. he could show it to be a misconception. You and I see it as a misconception that Satanism and nazism should be the most natural mix, but we do not have any data to prove it (yet). The last survey showed that satanists supported all kinds of political ideologies, and did not view Satanism as connected to any political ideology, and I would be very surprised if this have changed much. How much have *really* happened in the last eight years?

On the other hand, I would also be interested in knowing if the members of some groups are more likely to support some political views then others. I would be surprised if those who support the ONA usually also support the left wing in politics, or if those who support The Satanic Reds (if they still exist!) usually votes to the right - but who knows - it could be the case. The CoS is a mixed group if one looks at political views, and so is Satanism in general if one is to trust the old survey, but I would be surprised if all groups are as mixed as the CoS.

- Amina

Top
#27832 - 08/02/09 07:43 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
In regards to the last 4 posts....

SO FUCKING WHAT!!!!!!

The last survey was done of 140 people.

I have over 2500 people on my myspace page. About 90 percent of them are Satanists or affiliated with Satanists.

Theses people are all over the world.

So now matter what the survey shows, most of us here already know the results. Below are my estimations:

Mostly white men, middle of the road politics wise, some college education, and over 13 years involved with Satanism, with an average age of 30.

Its a survey as Fakepropht said, most of us do them all the time.
Its no big deal, when he gets more people who do the survey than I know, I will pay attention.

Oh, and btw, I did the survey last time too.
Demnark has like about 5 million people, it is still smaller than the borough I live in, let alone the total population of New York City.

\:\)

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



Top
#27840 - 08/03/09 01:51 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: wolf]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3119
 Originally Posted By: wolf
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Honestly Wolf, you are out of line.

You have taken this thread off line into a personal attack mode.

Please address that complaint to Dimitri, who launched his ad hominem attack and disrespectful reply to begin with.

 Quote:
No one cares who you are. You may be someone in Demark, but here, you are just like everyone else, nobody.

It isn't about me, but about Dimitri showing that he doesn't know his who's who before launching an ad hominem attack against someone.

 Quote:
I don't remember you ever posting, and Amera your wife comes and goes through here. Hardly worth remembering at times.

Then allow me to remind you that this board isn't all the Satanism that exists.

Whine whine whine...
Please someone, just ban this pseudo academic troll. The only thing he is doing here is defending his fuckbuddy without actually contributing something..
If you indeed are seeking for "academic books about Satanism" you'd better check out the reading list. It contains academic littrature with nice examples of Satanic thinking.

If you can't even see the difference between an "attack" or critisism what the fuck are you doing here then?
An attack involves personal violence, critisism involves pointing out weak points in a statement, action and so on...
Critisism is never a violation unless taken personally.


Edited by Dimitri (08/03/09 01:56 AM)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

Top
#27843 - 08/03/09 02:34 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Now now Dimi, let's not get shouting for a ban. Even when debates like this inevitable become hot, they are interesting at other levels.

The real issue here is who gains by having (compromised) information about Satanism?

Well, satanists do not. At some levels going public about Satanism is a bit like putting the sign "dangerous dog" at the entry to your backyard. The idea behind having a dog there is that he rips someone apart whenever he enters, so informing them before, kind of defeats the whole purpose. It's a bit like a 'do not steal the jewelry that is in my left drawer' you leave for burglars.
Satanist themselves know pretty well what they are about and how the situation is. They also know pretty well what age range the people they interact with are, what their political inclinations are and what kind of jobs they do. Those that don't, don't really care. After all people are not into Satanism for the tea parties and social gatherings. So basically we all know what we need to know or not care at all.

So satanists don't really benefit of it. So who besides the researchers benefit? They do for sure, charity seldom is a drive for research.

The only two parties I can come up with are those disliking Satanism and looking for a 'told you so' argument and those being public satanists having themselves identified with the label a bit too much and due to that, are also looking for a 'told you so' argument. Both need them to solve their issues. None is solving our issues of course but to be frank, we do not have issues.

One of the problems of identifying with Satanism in the (public) media, is that too often one starts to subject themselves (and Satanism) to houseniggery. Satanism has to be cleaned up, polished and packed into a fluffy wrapping. If not, one suffers the consequences. And as such, one starts to develop a 'true' version of Satanism that doesn't reflect bad on the media-satanist. As such, one also starts to divide Satanism into the good guys and the bad guys. And this is exactly what you are doing. If I read your website (satanisk forum), and yes I used a translator, Danish takes too long for me to puzzle through, I see all the evidence I need of houseniggery. It's understandable, saviors need to wear clean cloths but it greatly compromises your position as unbiased, and in that, all results that will be concluded by you. ONA is bad in your eyes and yes you are right; it is bad. It should be bad because Satanism is bad. But your bad or societal bad isn't other's bad. And in the end, who suffers from it being bad? Only those being the public face of Satanism. So nazism, asked to be added by you to the survey only serves a 'told you so' reason. Biased? Without a doubt.

D.


Edited by Diavolo (08/03/09 03:12 AM)

Top
#27845 - 08/03/09 04:48 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Morgan]
Bacchae Offline
Satan's White Trash Neighbor
member


Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 438
Loc: los angeles
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
In regards to the last 4 posts....

SO FUCKING WHAT!!!!!!

The last survey was done of 140 people.

I have over 2500 people on my myspace page. About 90 percent of them are Satanists or affiliated with Satanists.

Theses people are all over the world.

So now matter what the survey shows, most of us here already know the results. Below are my estimations:

Mostly white men, middle of the road politics wise, some college education, and over 13 years involved with Satanism, with an average age of 30.

Its a survey as Fakepropht said, most of us do them all the time.
Its no big deal, when he gets more people who do the survey than I know, I will pay attention.

Oh, and btw, I did the survey last time too.
Demnark has like about 5 million people, it is still smaller than the borough I live in, let alone the total population of New York City.

\:\)

Morgan



Morgan nailed it, and little else needs to be said. this thread has gotten out of hand.

this illiterate american has his uneducated finger on the lock button...

Top
#27850 - 08/03/09 09:24 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Diavolo]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Well, satanists do not. At some levels going public about satanism is a bit like putting the sign "dangerous dog" at the entry to your backyard. The idea behind having a dog there is that he rips someone apart whenever he enters, so informing them before, kind of defeats the whole purpose.


If you had a dog in your backyard and it riped someone apart, you would be prosecuted (at least in Denmark). That is why people put up signs - to keep people away without being prosecuted. That said - who do you think you can fool? The media and Christian literature has its misconceptions about Satanism (and a lot of other subjects), but Satanism is not a secret conspiracy. In the old days of LaVey two anthropologists did undercover research on the CoS. When LaVey was informed about the bluff, he viewed it as a clever use of lesser magic. Today undercover work is not seen as ethical, but studying difficult groups is still done. People do valid research on neonazi groups, terrorist groups, suicide cults, new religious movements like scientology, youth movements, internet comminities, drug culture etc. etc. Thinking Satanism should be harder to investigate or more subversive or dangerous is IMO a rather obvious misconception.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Satanist themselves know pretty well what they are about and how the situation is. They also know pretty well what age range the people they interact with are, what their political inclinations are and what kind of jobs they do.


And how does this differ from investigations of other religious, political, ethnic or occupational groups? Members of groups usually have an opinion, but this does not make the field of sociology useless or replaceable by simply asking one member of the group about his or her opinion. It is also obvious, that Lewis would have gotten different results if he had just asked me, you, Peter Gilmore, Aquino or someone else. If this was not obvious, we would not have this discussion in the first place.

Maybe you are unable to see the value of sociological research, but sociology can be used when one wans to understand phenomenas in society. As an example sociology was used during the Satanic Panic to understand why people believed in satanic conspiracies. If the data had showed that satanists actually DID sacrifice 10.000 people to Satan every year, as some groups claimed, I am sure the war on terror would have looked as a summer camp in comparison to the war on Satanism, and I am sure no public internet forums on Satanism like this one would be present today. Satanism has not been left alone because the government and researcher fear it, but because it has been viewed as unworthy of notice.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
So satanists don't really benefit of it. So who besides the researchers benefit? They do for sure, charity seldom is a drive for research.


Some did and some do. Ask Aquino how it was to be a satanist in the days of the panic. He has stories to tell. Ask some of the satanists who have to "stay in the closed" out of fear of being jailed or prosecuted if there government find out they use satanic internet forums (muslim contries), or some of the satanists who have lost jobs or connections because of misconceptions, or who have been investigated by police because the connection to Satanism made them look suspicious. I especially remember one incident of a CoS magister who was investigate in connection with his child's crib death, just because the police found out that he had a connection to Satanism. If governments really believed in all the misconceptions about Satanism, just visiting web pages on Satanism could probably get people prosecuted.

Most controversial groups like being investigated by academics because it help them get the same rights as other groups in society without having to hide there beliefs, and without having to be scared of being outed or prosecuted or banned without reason. The only groups who usually do not want to be investigated are groups who are involved with something illegal or subversive. I do not think this is the case with Satanism, and when one looks at the CoS' arguments against investigations, one gets the idea that people do not fear anything "evil", illegal or subversive being uncovered. The fear looks more as a fear of something embarrassing being uncovered, like a big amount of "dodoos" or devilworshippers (as mentioned by the CoS), or maybe just the not so surprising truth that the average satanists don't differ that much from the average person (a truth found in most surveys on minority groups).

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Satanism has to be cleaned up, polished and packed into a fluffy wrapping. If not, one suffers the consequences. And as such, one starts to develop a 'true' version of satanism that doesn't reflect bad on the media-satanist. As such, one also starts to divide satanism into the good guys and the bad guys.


Look, I can understand why you would want to have a bad reputation as an evil motherfucker connected to your secret online nickname. But honestly, do you actually do anything so scary and evil, that you would be prosecuted if you told people about it? The only cases of satanists I have see that I felt a need to disassociate myself from have been people who I honestly think should be classified not a satanists but as insane or immature. I am thinking on cases with people killing or sexually abusing infants and blaming it on "satanic voices", or teens who kill animals just because of the trill. Prising those kinds of actions or linking them to Satanism would in my opinion not do anything good. Telling people that most satanists do not hurt children or animals, or that the CoS has a strong negative view on crime, is consistent with fact and not something that turn Satanism into a white fluffy bunny.


 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
And this is exactly what you are doing. If I read your website (satanisk forum), and yes I used a translator,


Oh my good. From Google to bablefish. I will not even comment on this.

- Amina

Top
#27851 - 08/03/09 09:44 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Morgan]
wolf Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/27/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
The last survey was done of 140 people.

I have over 2500 people on my myspace page. About 90 percent of them are Satanists or affiliated with Satanists.

There are a few things covered by scientific method that may explain why the former is better than the latter. Your estimated numbers are quite probable, but alas: there's a little more to surveys than figuring out what the averages are.


Edited by wolf (08/03/09 09:49 AM)
_________________________
A comfortable falsehood will always win out over an uncomfortable truth. (Myself)

Top
#27852 - 08/03/09 09:48 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Bacchae]
wolf Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/27/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Bacchae
this illiterate american has his uneducated finger on the lock button...

Up to you. However, if you decide to follow Dimitri's request for a ban, I'd appreciate it if you traced the thread to where it got out of hand: it happened when Dimitri got personal, that is, when he made his very first reply to my post.
_________________________
A comfortable falsehood will always win out over an uncomfortable truth. (Myself)

Top
#27853 - 08/03/09 10:23 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Morgan]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Mostly white men, middle of the road politics wise, some college education, and over 13 years involved with Satanism, with an average age of 30.


I think the last survey showed a average involvement of around eight years. I remember thinking this was an interesting fact. We have a lot of data on other religious and political groups, and all data show (not surprisingly!) that not all who join a group stays in the group. Actually most people leave again within months, some stay for a few years, and only few people stay for many years. Those who stay for many years are usually only a very small minority (like 2%), even in groups accused of using "brainwash" like scientology. And they often stay because of social connections. An average involvement of eight years (or thirteen) do not fit this pattern. Comparing the data to what is known on other groups tell me and other researcher that satanists differs a lot from other similar groups (this would be very interesting and worth investigating) OR (and this is what is most plausible) that the newcommers who had only been involved in Satanism for a few weeks or months where underrepresented in the survey (some of them maybe not even investigating Satanism online yet). If this is true, then all the other facts in the survey (like average age, political opinions and beliefs) should also be analyses with this in mind.

- Amina

Top
#27859 - 08/03/09 02:47 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The fact that people do research on whatever organization does not imply anyone should cooperate or even see it as valid. The very fact that some do consider this work valuable does not make it valuable. You're so called glorification of it as a benefit to society is just a balloon to give it some presence which in reality isn't there. Who benefits of this? None but those throwing another book on the market about dark cults, or modern fringe religions or whatever fancy name they want to slap on it. Don't confuse their needs with our needs. Satanism isn't there to benefit society. What part of Satanism made you ever think it was in a love relation with society to begin with?

Your suggestion that sociological work somewhat helped Satanism during the satanic panic is funny at least. I do think what helped Satanism most is that there was no evidence at all for satanic ritual abuse or sacrifices. No matter how many sociological works one would bring in favour, if there is enough evidence, there will be convictions (unless you're O.J.). That's how a legal system works. At least down here. So please don't present it as the Moses that saved us out of Egypt.

Satanism does not demand anything. Some Satanists demand the same rights as other groups out there. But again, that is confusing the needs of some with the needs of all. Satanists have all the rights they want. Anyone wearing their religion on their sleeve and then demanding to be accepted as full by everyone should be kicked in the butt. Since when did we support egalitarianism? Last I remember is that we spit upon that, so if some are discriminated by society, so be it. Who can be discriminated if they don't go public about their convictions? In the USA it is considered political suicide to NOT believe in god. I guess all the sociological studies about Atheism not being as amoral as some fundies present it did not do much there. And that's Atheism, one of the most harmless convictions. If you're heterodox, don’t go public about it. Thought crime still is hard to prove. Change Satanism with paedophilia and you see how silly the argument is. Next time the paedophiles go public and demand equal rights, does anyone think that is a good or smart idea too?

Do I risk prosecution for anything I do or say? Doesn't anyone here in Europe risk prosecution (social or legal) if he is heterodox enough in his approach or if he defines his own right? Does it bother me? Not at all, it forces people at least to be smart and cunning in what they do. It might be hard to understand for people living in a domesticated environment but I can assure you, there is more happening out there than what Joe Average does. Does it make me a bad motherfucker? That's to others to decide, I prefer to see myself as a rather nice guy.

Your smart but weak escape about google through babelfish (I assume you don't google but directly pull all links out of a neural database) is nice but not efficient to escape the question why you call ONA pseudo-Satanism in public but at the same time prefer to wrap yourself into your unbiased cloak that regards all branches in Satanism as equal.

D.

Top
#27860 - 08/03/09 03:08 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: wolf]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The lock button and the ban button are two entirely different buttons here. I personally don't prefer to see any used as long as it isn't necessary. It is however their decision.
This debate is interesting at least and although many do disagree on this particular subject, I do prefer to see more input of the both of you on other subjects. Pluralism in opinions makes things interesting. Of course as a bad motherfucker, I should probably say "die sucker die!". ;\)

Let's also not complain about ad hominem. We do not really have a code of honor when debating and at times it is just too funny to use them. Your misses does also not shy away from them, so either you slap her ass tonight (I know you love to) or you agree others are entitled to act similar.

D.

Top
#27862 - 08/03/09 03:40 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Diavolo]
wolf Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/27/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Since when did we support egalitarianism? Last I remember is that we spit upon that, so if some are discriminated by society, so be it.

It's self-destructive to encourage those in power to wield it if their agenda is to eliminate you.

 Quote:
Next time the paedophiles go public and demand equal rights, does anyone think that is a good or smart idea too?

If Satanists had really been molesting children as suggested during the Satanic Panic, then it would be an equally bad idea to go public and demand equal rights. But then, unlike paedophiles, Satanists didn't molest children. Please don't imply that those two groups are comparable on those terms.
_________________________
A comfortable falsehood will always win out over an uncomfortable truth. (Myself)

Top
#27863 - 08/03/09 03:54 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: wolf]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Seriously Wolf, none can be eliminated for having specific ideas. That's being dramatic. If you don't go public about your inclinations, people don't know shit. If they don't know shit, they can hardly eliminate you. Once you get past the teen stage, you know it is better to blend in than stand out. It's not as if they know what religion we have by looking at our penis, as has been done in the past.

In that respect claiming to be a paedophile is as valid an argument as being a satanist. Try being a racist in current Europe. Cui bono is the only question to be asked when considering going public or not. None needs a messiah to lead them to freedom. At the very least, we should be able to save ourselves.

I don't think many Satanists in the Middle East (if there are any) are having a dark-pride. Does it make them less of a satanist? Does it in whatever aspect discriminate them in society? Not all all. Such ideas are only upheld by people trying to save that what doesn't need to be saved in the first place.

D.

Top
#27864 - 08/03/09 04:04 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Diavolo]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
The fact that people do research on whatever organization does not imply anyone should cooperate or even see it as valid.


There is more then one issue at play in this. 1) I agree that people can have any kind of subjective feelings about anything. 2) The CoS and others attacked the credibility of the researcher and the quality of research. As far as I can see, you even did this without reading the work in question (the before mentioned books and articles). People can have any kinds of subjective feelings, but I for one have more trust in peer reviews done by other professionals in the field.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
What part of Satanism made you ever think it was in a love relation with society to begin with?


If you read LaVey and read up on humanistic psychology, counter culture and other movements from the 60ties and 70ties you will see a lot of similarities. Satanism, as any other social phenomena is a child of its culture and its time period. Satanism wants to play the outlaw and mirror society, but a mirror only differs that much from the original. LaVeys Satanism could not have appeared in any other culture or time, and it is as much a part of society as mirror of it. That said, LaVey too spoke about 8 parts respectability. I know that some do not view LaVey as relevant, but he is still a part of Satanism.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Your suggestion that sociological work somewhat helped Satanism during the satanic panic is funny at least. I do think what helped Satanism most is that there was no evidence at all for satanic ritual abuse or sacrifices. No matter how many sociological works one would bring in favour, if there is enough evidence, there will be convictions (unless you're O.J.). That's how a legal system works. At least down here.


...and that is why a lot of people ended up in jail accused of satanic ritual abuse? People are still in jail because of false accusations made during the Satanic Panic. Some have been in jail for more then 20 years. I think you should try to read up on the topic.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Anyone wearing their religion on their sleeve and then demanding to be accepted as full by everyone should be kicked in the butt.


And anyone who was born in a Muslim country should just follow Muslim law or leave the community? As a female I am very aware that females did not have the right to vote, the right to run for office, the right to own land and so on in the old days. This was changed. Gays used to be killed and a still killed in some places in the world, but this has also changed and is changing. Blacks used to be slaves. Why not change society in other ways, if you are able to do so? I for one would not want to stay in any closed, unless I was forced to do so.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Who can be discriminated if they don't go public about their convictions?


Okay, let me give you an example. I have two kids. I could not hide my belief from my kids (ever parent knows that nothing can be hidden from kids), and I would not want to, because I as a mother want to share my views with my kids. I could share my views without mentioning Satanism, but then I still had to explain why most of our friends have pentagrams, what those funny websides are about on and so on. Being open about Satanism with my kids could make my kids tell about Satanism at school. If the school believed Satanism was connected to child molestation or human sacrifice I am rather sure they would react and call the cops. If the cops had the same conception, they would come an remove my kids. As it is now, I am open and have good relations with the school, the police, the other parents and so on. The gays came out of the closet years ago, prostitutes can be seen on the street, and neonazies have public spoakes persons. IMO most satanists do not act in ways society should react more to or fear more, so why should we try to convince people we are more subversive then gays, prostitutes and neonazis?

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
In the USA it is considered political suicide to NOT believe in god.


In Denmark it is considered strange to mention god if you are in politics. We even have priest who publicly declare that they do not believe in god, but who are allowed to stay in the job.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I guess all the sociological studies about atheism not being as amoral as some fundies present it did not do much there. And that's atheism, one of the most harmless convictions. If you're heterodox, don’t go public about it. Thought crime still is hard to prove. Change Satanism with paedophilia and you see how silly the argument is. Next time the paedophiles go public and demand equal rights, does anyone think that is a good or smart idea too?


LaVey was not prosecuted or burned on the stake. Peter Gilmore and others in the present CoS do not complain about being prosecuted. LaVey and others where proved when Satanism was recognized as a legitimate belief by the army, and a few years back they where happy when it was recognized by the UK army too. I do not see them complain, but I see them stand up for what they believe in without being prosecuted, and fight for what they want and getting it. I do not sympathize with other parts of the CoS politic, but I respect there ability to be an open organization represented by people who show there faces without fear. If they had been burned on the stake it would have been stupid of them to do so , but they show that it can be done if people have the balls to do it.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
ONA pseudo-satanism in public but at the same time prefer to wrap yourself into your unbiased cloak that regards all branches in satanism as equal.


I have not called ONA pseudo Satanism. I do not think of Satanism as one but as many different satanisms. I stated that the groups never really existed, and that it was counterproductive to associate oneself with groups like the ONA, especially if one does not even agree on there teaching. I also stated that if the ONAs definition of Satanism - human sacrifice and all – was the norm, Satanism would have been banned long time ago. I do not question the ONAs right to call itself satanic. Every teen can make a group and call it satanic, but this do not force me to support the group or share its opinions. It does not even force me to take it serious, or to view my own philosophy as somewhat related. I am an Atheist, why should I take any kind of theism serious, satanic or otherwise.

As far as I know the ONA never sacrificed anyone, so I don't see why the hell I should support its right to do so, or say they do so. If the ONA at least followed there own teachings, I think I would have more respect – and as long as they only sacrifice their own members to “the dark lord”, I would not even have any complains. I always had a soft spot for suicide cults.

- Amina

Top
#27865 - 08/03/09 04:05 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Diavolo]
wolf Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/27/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Seriously Wolf, none can be eliminated for having specific ideas.

History would seem to indicate otherwise.

 Quote:
If you don't go public about your inclinations, people don't know shit. If they don't know shit, they can hardly eliminate you.

And if you don't attempt to change anything, nothing will change: religious nuts will do anything they can to avoid progress--scientific, materialistic, or otherwise.

 Quote:
Try being a racist in current Europe.

Rather, try NOT being one as long as you make sure you attack colored people on anything but their color; the rapidly rising fascist sentiments here in Europe are alarmingly similar to what was heard in Germany in the 1920es and 1930es. My country is currently being run by a fascist bunch so bad even Jörg Haider refused to meet with them fearing he'd be considered too right-extremist.
_________________________
A comfortable falsehood will always win out over an uncomfortable truth. (Myself)

Top
#27866 - 08/03/09 04:26 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Diavolo]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
If you don't go public about your inclinations, people don't know shit.


Maybe you live alone without kids, a partner and friends who visit. In this scenario I guess hiding in the closed is an option. But if you have a partner or friends who share your views, or kids born with a healthy curiosity, you will never ever be able to hide anything. You will be out of the closed and you will have to deal with it sooner or later.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Once you get past the teen stage, you know it is better to blend in than stand out.


Blend in? I don't think I would be able to just blend in Satanism or not. I don't look like a satanic teen, but I have my opinions and they get noticed - Satanism or not. I am also active in Atheism, and this gets noticed too. If claiming to be a satanist is the only thing that differentiate you from other people, then I guess you *should* just shot up. But most of the satanists I know get noticed Satanism or not. Some are gay and open about it, some are into fetishism, Goth culture or something else. It is not because of Satanism they are unable just to blend in.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
In that respect claiming to be a paedophile is as valid an argument as being a satanist.


I do not see Peter Gilmore on the way to jail. Maybe no one noticed him being a satanist because of his size?

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I don't think many Satanists in the Middle East (if there are any) are having a dark-pride.


Most of those who are accused of Satanism in muslim countries are just youths who drink alcohol, dance and listen to heavy metal music. Some of them even have t-shirts and long hair. But they do get prosecuted and some have spent time in jail or been beaten up. They DID play concerts anyway, and as far as I know they where freed from jail and allowed to do so. IMO they got what they wanted.

- Amina

Top
#27868 - 08/03/09 04:35 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Did I attack Lewis? I raised the question how unbiased he is when reading about some apologetic excursions. If I remember correctly you did email him about a quote. I still didn't hear about what he replied. Another question I had was about adding Nazism to the survey that which ss out of place as a steak in a vegetarian cuisine.

Of course people ended up in jail. That happens all the time. I don't wanna count the daddies that due to divorce ended up in jail and lost all rights to their kids based upon false paedophile accusations. Does this say something about paedophilia or about society? Again, no matter how many sociological studies you put on the table, people believe what they want to believe and acting as if this presented knowledge will change their attitude of save someone is false at the least. Look at how creationism affects the USA and then think of all the work of scientists out there providing all the evidence you need to accept evolution as a valid mechanism.

Again, you do consider egalitarianism as a good thing. I see religion as a private matter at best. I do not need to accept or embrace any religion because they have some right to it. I don't think you find many here accepting Muslim fundamentalism as equally valid as other religions. So why even assume society will do the same with Satanism.

I do think that the 21 pseudo-satanic points are as pseudo as it can be called no? Your remarks about ONA make me wonder in how much you do really understand what it is about. I don't mind that you are against them but the arguments about existence, sacrifice and theism appear too similar to what I read of all that browsed quickly through some synopsis.

D.

Top
#27869 - 08/03/09 04:43 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Diavolo]
wolf Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/27/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Again, no matter how many sociological studies you put on the table, people believe what they want to believe and acting as if this presented knowledge will change their attitude of save someone is false at the least. Look at how creationism affects the USA and then think of all the work of scientists out there providing all the evidence you need to accept evolution as a valid mechanism.

Belief systems come a dime a dozen. Unless you wish to suggest that beliefs are entirely genetically encoded, how do you suggest they evolve--and hence change--if not for communication such as the results of studies?

There's this little passage from the Satanic Bible that I particularly like where Ragnar Redbeard states that the gods were created by man, and what man has made, man can destroy. If it's proven by results to be mere fiction, let it be cast out. I find it the chief duty of every age to help let it be done.
_________________________
A comfortable falsehood will always win out over an uncomfortable truth. (Myself)

Top
#27870 - 08/03/09 04:56 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Honey, since when is not being open about your beliefs seen as hiding in the closet. It's almost as if I should feel forced to shout to anyone I meet in a pub; "I am a SATANIST and I do like beer, cookies and blowjobs too!”. What's it with people who prefer to share all they are about with others because oh boy, being in the closet is a bad thing. I can't think of anything else but a severe need for attention.

Of course the gay came out of the closet and negros were slaves at one point and things changed through activism but how much activism does one really need to be able to believe what one wants to believe? None at all; everyone is entitled to believe what they want. You are battling for societal acceptance and none, absolutely none but those who's emotional state depends upon that acceptance benefits from that. Messianic again, leading a flock to salvation that spits upon the very idea.

I can wear leathers with my butt cut out and the fact that it does make me being noticed has very little to do with Satanism. So what does goth, gay or fetishism have to do with it in the first place. You act as if wearing a baphomet makes anyone satanic. You can blend in and still be completely different. I live in a society where I consider most as meat anyways but it doesn't change the fact that most perceive me as a nice guy. I don't suffer from a need to be open in any aspect that does not benefit me directly.

D.

Top
#27871 - 08/03/09 05:07 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: wolf]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Beliefs are supermemes and they evolve because of Darwinian selection at that level and because some people are more susceptible to them than others (yes genetically). I think I posted a link somewhere here about it. Memes, as you likely know, do not care about the carrier and merely infect and spread. So man can not that easily control what escaped out of Pandora's box.

You know that bad news spreads faster and wider than good news. This can be considered as Darwinian selection where some ideas are more fit than others. As such, sociological studies can hardly compete with the more aggressive memes out there on similar subjects. One loony out there eating a baby in the name of satan outcompetes every sociological study done. If that wasn't true, one didn't need to defend it over and over again.

D.

Top
#27875 - 08/03/09 05:20 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Diavolo]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Did I attack Lewis? I raised the question how unbiased he is when reading about some apologetic excursions.


I was not talking about you alone, but about those who questioned his work on Satanism. Did you notice that I even included the criticism from the CoS? I don't know about the excursions, but one can find dirt on anyone - his general standing in the professional community has more to say. I asked him, but he did not even tale it serious. I guess he is too used to be part of fights between cults and anticult groups.

[/quote]Another question I had was about adding Nazism to the survey that which ss out of place as a steak in a vegetarian cuisine.[/quote]

Why is investigating stereotypes out of place? We do have groups who are sympathetic to nazism. Why is this not a legitimate topic to investigate?

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Of course people ended up in jail. That happens all the time.


The point being: People ended up in jail accused of satanic ritual abuse and human sacrifice - without any valid evidence. You said people would not be jailed without evidence. Most of the people where jailed because of bad interview techniques used on small children and bad therapy used on adults with so called "multiple personality disorder". Sociology helped a lot in investigating how this could happen. You can still find the old reports and books online.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Again, no matter how many sociological studies you put on the table, people believe what they want to believe and acting as if this presented knowledge will change their attitude of save someone is false at the least.


The flat earth society is not as big as it could have been 500 years ago. Society and public opinion is not static. They change, and they are changed by human beings, not by god or mystical forces. The Satanic Panic did disappear for a lot of reasons. Changes in society, discoveries in psychology, investigations by the FBI and others, sociological studies and so on. But the point is that the panic appeared and diapered and that human beings played a role in it.

In Denmark and Norway it have been investigated how the media reported on Satanism from the 70'ties to 1995. It showed how the medias conception of Satanism changed, and it also showed what part satanists played in this, and how the two countries differed. The US is bigger and opinions harder to change, but even the US is not static. It can be changed for the better or it can turn worse. But it is still in the hands of human beings.


 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Look at how creationism affects the USA and then think of all the work of scientists out there providing all the evidence you need to accept evolution as a valid mechanism.


You have government and you have people. I would never dream of trying to change the opinion of the people, but I am happy as long as the government does not pass insane laws or prosecute people without reason. The problem with the satanic panic was not public opinion, but the experts used in the criminal system, and the laws passed by the government. The US government have even realized that global warming and pollution is a problem, so they are not all ignoring experts.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Again, you do consider egalitarianism as a good thing.


As long as I am not able to become the supreme ruler of the earth or at least the queen of Denmark, I do want to support the idea of human rights. I do not accept any kind of theism as sane, but as long as people follow the laws of society I don't really care what they believe in. As long as I don't have the power to rule, accepting equal rights for everyone withing the laws of society sounds like a rather sane idea.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I do think that the 21 pseudo-satanic points are as pseudo as it can be called no?


Eh, I don't care if people call them satanic or not. But I personally do not think they are very sane or rational. Show me someone who claim to live by them, and I would be very interrested in knowing how he (I am sure it will be a he) do it in his daily life.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Your remarks about ONA make me wonder in how much you do really understand what it is about. I don't mind that you are against them but the arguments about existence, sacrifice and theism appear too similar to what I read of all that browsed quickly through some synopsis.


I read a lot of there texts 10 or 15 years ago or something like that when I was new on the internet and read everything I could find on Satanism. Then a few years back I read some of the articles and books mentioning the group. Before visiting the600club I had only talked to teenagers who showed any interest in the group. I was suprised to find so many people sympathizing with the ONA on this board - but I still see no real organization. What I see is the old leader of the ONA turning to Islam and disassociating himself from the group. Maybe he had some kind of idea with the ONA, but IMO the ONA was only a way of attracting people to neonazism.

Anyway, I don't believe in magic, occultism, gods or social darwinism as legitimate science - so I can hardly claim to *understand* anything involving those beliefs.

- Amina

Top
#27876 - 08/03/09 05:27 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Diavolo]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Beliefs are supermemes and they evolve because of Darwinian selection at that level and because some people are more susceptible to them than others (yes genetically)


I remember memes being mentioned when I was studying psychology at university. If we had used memes to explain social psychology, we would not have passed the exam. It is a very controversial theory, not a replacement of all other theories in communication, cultural studies, media sciance and so on. When one theory tries to explain everything from small pox to the music of Mozart on should be very suspicious.

- Amina

Top
#27877 - 08/03/09 05:37 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Your assumption of why Lewis laughed the criticism away hardly makes a convincing answer. Again, I am not bothered if or if not someone paid his lunch but to claim some sort of academic unbiasedness needs more evidence than a reputation in his community. After all, the world is filled with people having a status in their community which doesn't live up to the requirements of others.

Why is adding Nazism out of order? I surely don't need to explain that to you who (and I think this is a correct assumption) is looking for a correlation between specific satanists and Nazism as a 'told you so' argument. Cui bono?
Btw, didn't you profile me after I said I consider Social Darwinism as a reality. It still makes me chuckle.

If the experts were the problem in the satanic panic, why would they now suddenly be the saviors? Did they see the light somewhere?

So you read about ONA 10 or 15 years ago and still consider yourself a resource upon the subject? Good you aren't into medicine, you'd still be draining blood to cure diseases. It at least explains a lot.

D.

Top
#27878 - 08/03/09 05:50 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Diavolo]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Honey, since when is not being open about your beliefs seen as hiding in the closet.


It is, if "not being open" is the same as no one knowing. You can not keep people from knowing unless you keep it to yourself and don't share your opinions with friends and family. When it is out in the open then you have to deal with it some way or another.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
You are battling for societal acceptance


No I am not. But I see no point in not addressing and changing misconceptions if I can. In my experience people are able to find something in Satanism to disagree with and hate, even if they realize that most satanists do not have a diet of infants and blood. But most of what they disagree with is not against any Danish laws, and we can not be prosecuted because of it. I do not try to sell Satanism as pink and fluffy, but most misconceptions about Satanism in Denmark connect it to teenage vandalism of churchyards and goth culture, so it is viewed more as immature then dangerous.


 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
You act as if wearing a baphomet makes anyone satanic. You can blend in and still be completely different.


You missed my point. The point being that most of the satanists I know want to be able to say and do what every they want to, and most of them do that - without being prosecuted or burned at the stake. If you have to blend in all the time, you will have no rum to be an individual. I do not want to have to talk, act, believe, dress and look like everyone else to blend in. I will do as I have to do to fit in, have a good job etc. but I do not want to blend or act something I am not.

- Amina

Top
#27879 - 08/03/09 05:51 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Amina
When one theory tries to explain everything from small pox to the music of Mozart on should be very suspicious.


I guess the same could be said about sociology.

D.

Top
#27880 - 08/03/09 05:57 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Diavolo]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
 Originally Posted By: Amina
When one theory tries to explain everything from small pox to the music of Mozart on should be very suspicious.


I guess the same could be said about sociology.


Sociology is not a theory but a scientific field with a lot of different theories at work. Sociology can not explain everything, but at least it have more then one tool in its toolbox. Even biology has other tools besides Darwinian evolution.

- Amina

Top
#27882 - 08/03/09 06:04 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Again, where does the assumption come from that when you have a certain opinion, people will run through their checklist and find out you are satanic. I can have opinions about anything out there and people will consider it opinions. I never met anyone this far that said; oh you think this, ergo you must be a satanist. People only know you are satanic if they are either very familiar with the subject or are satanists themselves. As long as you don't share the label, most people are oblivious to it.

People will always disagree with Satanism or have misconceptions. None is obliged to change that because again, if you don't throw yourself into the public, none affects you. Down here I share my views but out there, I could care less if they say that satanists sacrifice kittens. Just for the fun I would even add; "and babies too so I heard". Your "embrace me even when I special" attitude is silly at best. You don't embrace what you don't see fit, so how laughable is your desire for others to do it then?

How do you of all people not blend in at all? Your devil is sterile girl.

D.

Top
#27883 - 08/03/09 06:17 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Diavolo]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Your assumption of why Lewis laughed the criticism away hardly makes a convincing answer.


As I said - read his books if you want to form an opinion on his work on Satanism or other subjects.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Why is adding Nazism out of order? I surely don't need to explain that to you who (and I think this is a correct assumption) is looking for a correlation between specific satanists and Nazism as a 'told you so' argument.


To tell you the truth, Lewis showed me an earlier version of the survey, asking for suggestions because I communicated with him on the old survey, and because I have contributed to research before. At the time I had been writing on an article on ONA and neonazism in peganism and Satanism, and I suggested adding the questions about ONA and neonazism. If I had not met ONA supports on this board claiming ONA to be the secret force behind the rice of racial conflicts in Europe (an idea I view as absurd), I would not have worked on the article or suggested the questions. So I guess you can thank some of the ONA supporters I talked to on my last visit to this board.

Showing a connecting between the ONA and right wing political views would NOT be something to write home about. Showing the opposite would.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
If the experts were the problem in the satanic panic, why would they now suddenly be the saviors? Did they see the light somewhere?


Why don't you read up on the subject? Try the book "The Satanism scare" edited by Bromley.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
So you read about ONA 10 or 15 years ago and still consider yourself a resource upon the subject?


So your long lost leader has returned from fundamentalistic Islam and revived the movement or what? All the times I have seen followers of ONA they have not been connected to any orgs, or the orgs have been short lived, run by teenagers and not produced any material worth noticing or reading. If this has changed, I am more then trilled to have had the question about ONA included in the survey.

- Amina

Top
#27884 - 08/03/09 06:33 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Diavolo]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
People only know you are satanic if they are either very familiar with the subject or are satanists themselves.


And if friends who are into Satanism visit and talk about Satanism, you tell them to turn their voices down so the guy next door don't notice, or tell then to shot up, if non-satanists are present? And if some of your satanic friends tell others about your connection to Satanism, you kill everyone involved? I guess not.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I could care less if they say that satanists sacrifice kittens. Just for the fun I would even add; "and babies too so I heard".


Eh, I am educated to teach young people about religion and psychology, and I have written on LaVey as part of my education. I would not be doing my job if I deliberately misinformed people on Satanism or other religions, and even people who knew nothing about my connection to Satanism would expect me to have some sort of knowledge on the subject. But yes, you are in a rather different line of work I guess...

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Your "embrace me even when I special" attitude is silly at best. You don't embrace what you don't see fit, so how laughable is your desire for others to do it then?


There is a big differences between "embracing" and "not prosecuting". I do not want to be prosecuted for the wrong reasons.

- Amina

Top
#27895 - 08/04/09 12:52 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
"Anyway, I don't believe in magic, occultism, gods or social darwinism as legitimate science - so I can hardly claim to *understand* anything involving those beliefs."

That's really funny since understanding social trends/cultures within groups, those issues do play a part in sociology.

"Your estimated numbers are quite probable, but alas: there's a little more to surveys than figuring out what the averages are."

True, you find out the averages plus the low to high ranges.
That's it, it is a survey not a job interview.

Honestly, a survey of 140 people is not going to change how people think. If anything, it would make the idea of Satanism seem more trite.

As I mentioned before, I have over 2500 friends just on myspace. Most of whom are Satanist, how many Satanist do you know?

The world is not going to embrace Satanism, and I don't really want it to. There are enough people who see it as a fad or trendy thing to do.

Diavolo is right in regards to you and your anti-ONA beliefs, and that is your right. Just as it is my right to think you and your husband are dweebs with messiah complexes.

You may be something in Denmark, but this is the rest of the world, and you don't really matter.

You don't have to scream to the world, I'm a Satanist.
Just Live like one.

Surveys don't matter, it just kills time.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



Top
#27901 - 08/04/09 08:39 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Morgan]
The Zebu Offline
senior member


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1640
Loc: Orlando, FL
I do think that Nazism is a relevant issue-- not only because of the ONA, but also because of the rise in popularity of the Joy of Satan. Granted, they're a moronic bunch, and I doubt any of their 13-year-old "followers" will still be on the LHP five years from now, but they still play a major part in Satanism's "net-image".

While I do believe that this survey will help de-mystify Satanic demographics a little bit, I don't see it having any overreaching effects or contribute to the "acceptance" of Satanism as a whole. I mean, you can have all the surveys you want, and the tabloids will still be pressing absurd articles like "Devil worshiping teen stabbed victim 666 times!", and that conservative Christian man walking down the street will still give you a funny look when he sees your Baphomet pendant (which you won't be able to get away with wearing to a job interview anytime soon).

Granted, it's technically possible, in some crazy pipe-dream world. But certainly not now, because we are not large enough-- proving point: the internet is still pretty much the main nexion of the "Satanic Community".
_________________________
«Recibe, ¡oh Lucifer! la sangre de esta víctima que sacrifico en tu honor.»

Top
#27905 - 08/04/09 12:31 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Well, a 'told you so' indeed. It took time pulling it out of you.

So, someone on this board told you ONA is the force behind the rise of racial conflicts in Europe and that convinced you to add the question to the survey and write an article about it. How gullible are you girl?

So you're writing an article about ONA, something you read upon about 10 years ago and clearly don't get at all. Just quit acting as if you're an academic whatever; you're a cackling housewife and Denmark must have some Nancy satanists that they allow you to represent them in the media. Or they consider you as their dark Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf. I see the joke so maybe they do too.

I'm done here.

D.

Top
#27913 - 08/04/09 05:07 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Diavolo]
Bacchae Offline
Satan's White Trash Neighbor
member


Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 438
Loc: los angeles
hahaa tell it like it is brother!
Ive never once understood the need among many internet satanists to codify themselves, gain acceptance, official recognition, and academic notice.
what do they want next? a reality tv show?

invite the masses and you are signing up for voluntary castration.

this thread is a joke, as is the survey that sparked it.

Top
#27915 - 08/04/09 05:31 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Bacchae]
DistroyA Offline
member


Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 478
Loc: Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, UK
The survey was just something to kill time with. Now this thread seems like it's turned into a dick swinging contest on who's more Satanic than who.

Personally, I don't see the point in saying how Satanic one is or how many Satanic friends ya have or whatever. Just seems like pointless bickering that gets people nowhere, as the argument keeps going in full circle, and eventually we get to the point where someone gets banned or whatever because of something that spiraled out of control.

Gotta love internet communities, eh?
_________________________
"A man chooses, a slave obeys." - Andrew Ryan of Ryan Industries (Bioshock)

Top
#27936 - 08/05/09 05:00 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Morgan]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
"Anyway, I don't believe in magic, occultism, gods or social darwinism as legitimate science - so I can hardly claim to *understand* anything involving those beliefs."

That's really funny since understanding social trends/cultures within groups, those issues do play a part in sociology.


No, understanding why people BELIEVE in them play a part. I don't study gods or magical powers - I study those who believe in them as do sociology.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Honestly, a survey of 140 people is not going to change how people think. If anything, it would make the idea of satanism seem more trite.


No, 140 people is not a big sample. The point is, that 140 people is a bigger sample then what most have to relate to, and that a systematic survey shows more then a collection of personal experiences or anecdotal evidence. Yes, you have personal info on a lot of people, but unless you ask all new friends to fill in a form before you accept them as friends, you do not have any kind of systematic data. And even if you did, you would not publish your knowledge in peer reviewed books or magazines. Another problem is that your friends probably do not reflect Satanism as a whole, unless you actively try to become friends with every newbee on the net. And then we have the part about analyzing the data. To do that, you need more then the ability to find an average. You also have to be able to analyze the data in other ways, including relating the data to other surveys and facts. If surveys only had to do with finding an average, surveys would be part of mathematics, not something one had to use time to study in sociology and other fields.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
The world is not going to embrace Satanism, and I don't really want it to. There are enough people who see it as a fad or trendy thing to do.


This is another subject. Creating a realistic picture of Satanism is not the same as selling it to the masses. People do not want to join Satanism just because they realize that only few satanists eat babies and rape goats. We are not alone in this. Have you ever wondered why most satanists are white males? Satanism only attract some, and with all the "good publicity" it already have, the publicity should have to change quite a lot.
Every time Satanism get bad press we get insane people who turn to Satanism in the hope to find like minded people. Even The600Club turn those away. I am unable to see how more realistic press would be a bigger problem to deal with.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
You may be something in Denmark, but this is the rest of the world, and you don't really matter.


And so what? Who said I did? Could we try aiming at the ball and disregard the dickfight? The validity of my opinions or arguments do not depend on who I am, who I know, how many friends I have or what names you call me.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
You don't have to scream to the world, I'm a Satanist.
Just Live like one.


Don't worry - I can do that without you advice, as I am sure you can without mine.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Surveys don't matter, it just kills time.


I guess sites like facebook has devalued peoples opinion of surveys. This does not change the fact that surveys are used and viewed as useful in a lot of fields, including sociology.

I find it rather scary to see how peoples experiences during "magical workings" or anecdotal evidence is accepted at face value by some in this forum, while tools from the academic toolbox and peer reviewed studies are treated like snakeoil and pipedreams. Nothing is perfect, but one could at least expect an equal evaluation.

- Amina

Top
#27937 - 08/05/09 05:05 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Morgan]
wolf Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/27/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
"Your estimated numbers are quite probable, but alas: there's a little more to surveys than figuring out what the averages are."

True, you find out the averages plus the low to high ranges.

Low to high ranges, or rather the so-called "spread" or "variance," which are more meaningful in statistics than low-to-high ranges, are virtually inseparable from averages, so it goes without saying they're involved if averages are. However, I was thinking more along the lines of the important aspects of surveys. I'm sure you can come up with examples of somewhat more important other aspects than calculating averages (and their cousins: spread and variance)--if you know what you're talking about in terms of survey analysis, that is. Oh, wait, I forgot you said:

 Quote:
That's it.

Well, Morgan, it is very, very far from it. Data analysis is a complicated task, and people don't spend years at university specializing in that field only to learn how to calculate averages.

 Quote:
Just as it is my right to think you and your husband are dweebs with messiah complexes.

Speaking of messiah complexes and religious assumptions, I have to wonder why it is you think we're married just because we live together and have children together.
_________________________
A comfortable falsehood will always win out over an uncomfortable truth. (Myself)

Top
#27938 - 08/05/09 05:10 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Originally Posted By: Amina
I find it rather scary to see how peoples experiences during "magical workings" or anecdotal evidence is accepted at face value by some in this forum, while tools from the academic toolbox and peer reviewed studies are treated like snakeoil and pipedreams.


Care to give an example where anything, especially "magical workings", were accepted at face value on this site? How about where "tools from the academic tool box" are treated like "snake oil and pipedreams"? Keep in mind that surveys, no matter how academic you champion them to be, do not fall into that category.

Or, here is an even better idea; can a mod or admin lock this thread? It is going nowhere and has strayed far off topic. What was the topic again?
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

Top
#27939 - 08/05/09 05:18 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Diavolo]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
So, someone on this board told you ONA is the force behind the rise of racial conflicts in Europe and that convinced you to add the question to the survey and write an article about it. How gullible are you girl?


This is not the point. The point is, that I was surprised to see anyone above the age of 15 taking the organization serious. 15 years ago when I joined the CoS noone took them serious, the organization was dead, and because of the satanic panic organizations like the ToS and the CoS had a hostile reaction to any mentioning of the groups. When I used ONA as an example in my original text, I used it because I was sure the org. was long dead and in bad standing in most satanic communities. Seeing that this has changed IS interesting.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
So you're writing an article about ONA, something you read upon about 10 years ago and clearly don't get at all.


No, actually I was writing an article on nazism and Satanism (as stated). ONA was just a small part of it, so I will probably only use secondary literature from earlier writings on the subject. Analyzing all of primary literature will not be worth the effort in this context.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
you're a cackling housewife and Denmark must have some Nancy satanists


And calling people names while hiding your face and real name is part of representing true hard core Satanism? I see. Could we please get back to playing with the ball? This is not a popularity contest.

- Amina

Top
#27941 - 08/05/09 05:23 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
Care to give an example where anything, especially "magical workings", were accepted at face value on this site? How about where "tools from the academic tool box" are treated like "snake oil and pipedreams"?


Point being, I don't see people worry this much about faults, mistakes, agendas and low quality of data when people tell about magical workings or other subjective experiences. But maybe I should take this as a prof that people actually DO view surveys as more then just a collection of subjective opinions?

- Amina

Top
#27942 - 08/05/09 05:27 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Again, show me where, on this site, any "magical working" has ever been discussed and accepted at face value. If you can't do that then shut up.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

Top
#27944 - 08/05/09 05:50 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
wolf Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/27/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Amina
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
you're a cackling housewife and Denmark must have some Nancy satanists


And calling people names while hiding your face and real name is part of representing true hard core satanism? I see.

I think it was Nemo that once said to some boisterous idiot that the only reason he dared to speak like that was because he knew Nemo (assuming it was him) couldn't reach out through his monitor and punch him in the eye. That is, it's easy to play tough when you don't have to walk the talk.
_________________________
A comfortable falsehood will always win out over an uncomfortable truth. (Myself)

Top
#27945 - 08/05/09 05:57 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: The Zebu]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
I do think that Nazism is a relevant issue-- not only because of the ONA, but also because of the rise in popularity of the Joy of Satan.



Joy of Satan could also have been included, but I think the ONA is more relevant because they have been part of the scene for more years and there texts have been able to get there own life unrelated to specific persons on the satanic scene. I do not know much about Joy of Satan, and most of what I have seen have been on youtube. I would think the group is so controversial right now that its merit is very dependent on its frontpersons, not its ideas. Also, it would be hard to compare data on the JoS to anything, because the groups is so new. I don't think any research have been done on the group yet? But as stated - I don't know enogh about the groups to know this.

 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
Granted, they're a moronic bunch, and I doubt any of their 13-year-old "followers" will still be on the LHP five years from now, but they still play a major part in Satanism's "net-image".


People are asked to state any groups they are or have been involved in. Maybe this will give some data on the JoS.

 Originally Posted By: The Zebu
While I do believe that this survey will help de-mystify Satanic demographics a little bit, I don't see it having any overreaching effects or contribute to the "acceptance" of Satanism as a whole.


De-mystifying is more or less all I would ask for right now, especially in the US. Being able to point to objective data is of value IMO - even when most people ignore it. In the US a scary amount of people believe virgin birth, hell, creationism and other insane ideas. If scientists only worked on research that the general public would understand and value the US would be a nation of bible interpreters (and no, I am not trying to piss of Americans on this board).


Maybe realistic information don't change the world, but IMO it is a good place to start. I have seen it work quite well in smaller less religious communities.

- Amina

Top
#27946 - 08/05/09 06:08 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
Again, show me where, on this site, any "magical working" has ever been discussed and accepted at face value. If you can't do that then shut up.



As stated, I do not believe in magic. If I should replay to any of the contributions in the ritual section on this board I would not be able to accept any of the statements about magical powers, spirits or other supernatural claims as something people actually experienced in real life. You can pick any contribution from that section discussing peoples experienced as something they actually experienced in real life, and I would view my statement as applying to this.

This said, do you have anything to add to the topic at hand? I can see your pressing need to address any problems you see in what I write, but I think you are aiming at the player (or rather words out of context) and not the topic (the topic being the survey in question, or the usefulness of surveys in general).
Play ball, please.

- Amina


Edited by Amina (08/05/09 06:20 PM)

Top
#27947 - 08/05/09 06:17 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
First of all, I do not believe in magic either. Not as some supernatural force anyways. Second there is no "ritual section" on this board. And third, you made the claim that "succesfull magical workings" have not only been discussed but accepted at face value. I ask you for proof and you dodge the question, not once, but twice.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

Top
#27948 - 08/05/09 06:30 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
This is sooo out of topic...

Okay, the section I was thinking about is named "Occultism". If I read the first post in the first section (to do it the easy way) I get this statement from "Satansfarm":
 Quote:
"I have had some range of success with Satanic rituals, but none as profound as the destruction ritual. There's nothing quite as dramatic as watching or hearing of a curse working. Quite frankly, it is the reason that I felt that Dr. LaVey was so interesting. I was a dweeby, skinny kid and the first bully I hexed got his teeth knocked out"
.

http://www.the600club.com/topic21811-1.html

Okay, granted, people did not have a democratic vote and decided to trust the statement or not, the quote could be interpreted in many ways and I did not read the whole topic, but I do not see the spanish inquisition stepping in as it did in relation to the survey.

- Amina

Top
#27949 - 08/05/09 06:34 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
Well if you didn't read the whole thread then you can't really use it as an example. Had you read the whole thing you would have noticed that people certainly did question the validity of that post. I am done with this now.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

Top
#27950 - 08/05/09 06:37 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
As long as people are ignoring the topic at hand and making demands, maybe I could do the same. Someone mentioned a section with a reading list in connection to my complains about "not having talked to any American satanists who had read academic books on Satanism". Maybe someone could tell me how to find this reading list? Maybe this could add a bit to the topic and/or show me how wrong I am.

- Amina

Top
#27951 - 08/05/09 06:45 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
Well if you didn't read the whole thread then you can't really use it as an example. Had you read the whole thing you would have noticed that people certainly did question the validity of that post. I am done with this now.


But did the Spanish inquisition move in at once? Or I could ask: If this had been a discussion on alt.sociology or something like that, do you think the reactions to discussions about surveys and magic would have been the same?

- Amina

Top
#27958 - 08/05/09 09:57 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
Amina, you have shown that you just dont have a clue about this board.

You don't know where there is basic information about reading lists.

You don't read any threads fully.

You tend to be misinformed about lots of topics.

Also, 140 people is not a lot of people. I doubt the next survey will even double that.

I had asked previously how many Satanist do you actually know in real life, and you still didnt reply.

Denmark is small compared to the rest of the world.
Just because 140 seems like a large amount of people to you, it really is not.

Its really silly at this point, you still don't understand.
Perhaphs you never will.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



Top
#27968 - 08/05/09 11:44 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Morgan]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
Big Slick
active member


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
To no one in general, this thread is being locked. Seven pages devoted to a silly ass online survey. It's now turned into a pissing contest.
_________________________
Beer, the reason I get up every afternoon.

Top
Page all of 7 12345>Last »


Moderator:  Woland, TV is God, fakepropht, SkaffenAmtiskaw, Asmedious, Fist 
Hop to:

Generated in 0.122 seconds of which 0.004 seconds were spent on 115 queries. Zlib compression disabled.