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#27558 - 07/27/09 04:41 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Amina Offline
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Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6
I can see the concern of "Devil worshipping dodos" fucking up the results of the survey; but, so what?


Maybe Gilmore don't understand the idea of surveys? Every population have its "dodos", and Satanism has its fare share too - everyone knows that. If a survey did not show the dodos too, the survey would not be a serious piece of work. At the same time, the public is aware of the dodos because they are more visible then most satanists, and if the public is to trust the research, the research most also include and explain the dodos. If anything, surveys are able to show how the large numbers of satanists who do NOT act as laud dodos or get in the media because of stupid actions feel about Satanism. It shows the norm, not extreme individuals, and it can show differences in the population. I this survey, people are even asked witch organizations they belong to or support, so it will be easy to investigate how members of the CoS differs from followers of ToS, Joy of Satan or other groups. Maybe the CoS is just afraid that the survey will show how there members really are, or how fem in numbers they are?

That said, one can read the old survey. CoS asked people to boycott that to, but as I read it, a lot of CoS members ignored this. I don't see why the new survey should be pestered more by "Devil worshipping dodos" then the last one, and as I read the results from the last survey, it sure paints a better picture of Satanism then the one painted by the media, Christians and earlier speculations about the nature of Satanism and satanists.

I came to think of another of Lewis' articles that can be read online, and maybe adds to why the CoS is pissed. If anyone wants to read more on his research I could recommend reading http://www.uni-marburg.de/fb03/ivk/mjr/pdfs/2002/articles/lewis2002.pdf

- Amina


Edited by Amina (07/27/09 04:54 AM)

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#27563 - 07/27/09 12:45 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
The Zebu Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 1647
Loc: Orlando, FL
Devil-worshiping dodos? Seriously? Even when the results of the first survey showed that the majority of Satanists were modern/symbolic/atheistic?

I mean, really... here you have a reputable scholar of new religious movements trying his best to study Satanism while at the same time be impartial to any sects or denominations (let's face it, there are sects in the LHP), and we have the most popular and public manifestation of Satanism DENOUNCE this this study because it includes groups other than theirs.

You know, at first I could buy Gilmore's reluctance to give out CoS numbers. I mean, it's his group, so he can do whatever he wants with the paperwork. But based on this, I'm convinced he's hiding something. Not the fact that there are legions of devil-worshipers out there, but that there are legions more of legitimate Satanists out there who don't buy into the CoS. And he's probably afraid of that.
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#27564 - 07/27/09 01:06 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: The Zebu]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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I did the survey and while I expect the teens to add their form of Satanism which they will forget all about in a year or so, I still will look forward to read the new result and see if there have been shifts compared to the previous one. What I expect is the general age of satanists to be higher than before. There is a large disinterest in Satanism compared to years ago (woohoo), so the % of teens might be less while the number of old timers will probably be rather identical.

The only thing that puzzled me a bit was question 37; when giving your attitude to a series of stuff, all of them are either satanic related with the exception of christianity or pagan/wicca. But amazingly only one political direction was added: nazism/neo-nazis. One could wonder why they especially want to know how much in favor that is in Satanism.

If being unbiased, why not ask how much we appreciate socialism or liberalism?

D.

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#27565 - 07/27/09 01:35 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Diavolo]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
But amazingly only one political direction was added: nazism/neo-nazis. One could wonder why they especially want to know how much in favor that is in satanism.


I asked Lewis to add the question for two reasons. For one, many in the general public think that Nazism and Satanism is connected, because they are both viewed as "evil". The other reason is that there have been a shift in Nazism in resent years from affiliation to Christianity to affiliation with paganism and occultism. After the Order of Nine Angels, Order of the Left Hand path and other racist groups disappeared years ago, I have a feeling that nazism is on the rise again in Satanism. This would not be a big surprise because Nazism is also on the rice in other pagan and occult groups, but it would be interesting to see if there is a difference in the support of nazism in different satanic groups.

- Amina

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#27566 - 07/27/09 01:44 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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I did some reading up on Lewis and when googling his name and apologist, one does get some pretty interesting stories that conflict a little with unbiased academic research. It seems he and his buddy Melton do not shy away from er... benefits when promoting giving their unbiased opinion.

This is a fairly interesting unbiased opinion on scientology:

 Quote:
I have observed the Church of Scientology over the past few decades. Its critics have come and gone. It has emerged victorious from struggles with powerful governmental institutions and with organized bigotry. In the wake of every controversy, the Church has grown and prospered.

I have also had the opportunity to interact with ordinary Scientologists in everyday settings. I never fail to be impressed by the solidness, clarity and high ethical standards of Church members. Thus, at both an institutional and an individual level, Scientology has a strength of character that bodes well for its future.

I would finally like to mention that the Church of Scientology has taken responsibility for the surrounding society. Critics never seem to find the room to mention the Church’s work in educational reform, in the fight against drugs, in the publicizing of medical abuse and in other areas of social reform. Thus Scientology continues to work toward a brighter future for all of us, and I, for one, wish the Church every success in its endeavors.

Prof. James R. Lewis
Chairman, Department of
Religious Studies
World University of America


I'm not even gonna comment on that.

Anyways, the right is on the rise in all of Europe and as such, it will no doubt display in the answers of European satanists. But to throw all inclinations towards the right under the label of nazism is nothing but fear mongering. Nazi satanic panic comes to mind.

D.

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#27567 - 07/27/09 02:04 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Diavolo]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
It seems he and his buddy Melton do not shy away from er... benefits when promoting giving their unbiased opinion.


If you look in academic literature or magazines, you would soon realize that Lewis and Melton are some of the esteemed experts on new religions. If you study history of religion or sociology of religion, you would probably not be able to avoid reading at least one book or text by those two - I know I did, when I studied the topic of new religious groups (including Scientology) at the university. Melton even wrote on Satanism years ago, but you would probably not be able to google that.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Anyways, the right is on the rise in all of Europe and as such, it will no doubt display in the answers of European satanists. But to throw all inclinations towards the right under the label of nazism is nothing but fear mongering. Nazi satanic panic comes to mind.


The survey also had a question about political affiliation, as far as I remember. Nazism is an issue like vandalism and teen rebellion, because it fits with stereotypes. Investigating if stereotypes fit, makes much sense. If there had been a stereotype about satanists being sympathetic to communism, I would have suggest a question about this too - but there is not.

I am quite sure that the survey will show that nazism is not supported by a majority of satanists, and I am also sure that those satanists who have a right wing political view but do NOT view themselves as racists or nazis will be able to show this in there replays. No one is forcing anyone to show support, if they do not feel supportive. I am also sure that Lawis will compare the results with main stream surveys on political views etc. One needs to compare the satanic population to the general public if one wants to show how satanists differ. If the sympathy for nazism is the same in Satanism as in other groups (mainstream or other religious groups), it will be a point in it self and it will miscredit stereotypes.

- Amina

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#27568 - 07/27/09 02:12 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I am not denying he is the leading expert on new religions, I am only pointing out some things are fishy. An unbiased academic promoting Scientology or flying to Japan to defend Aum after the sarin attacks and by evidence shown to be talking out of his ass. All costs involved paid by Aum of course.

A leading expert maybe but fishy for sure.

Qui bono? Such a nice question to ponder upon.

Of course none is forced to add that he likes nazism but nazism is as outdated as devilworship and totally out of context there. Unbiased has a different method than what is displayed in this survey.

D.

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#27569 - 07/27/09 02:30 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Diavolo]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I am not denying he is the leading expert on new religions, I am only pointing out some things are fishy.


I have asked Lewis about your quote. I am sure you realize that academics who study new religious groups are being attacked and used by anti cult groups and cults. You can do a google, but you should not trust what you find, unless it is from a reliable source. As far as I can see, your sources are not that great.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Of course none is forced to add that he likes nazism but nazism is as outdated as devilworship and totally out of context there. Unbiased has a different method than what is displayed in this survey.


Eh, so I just imagined the satanists I have talked to who supported nazism or where into devilworship? Or did I just imagine that some people still have a sympathy for groups who worshiped Satan and Hitler together? Even if I did, it would be very, very nice to have the stats to show that I was just imagining those people. That would also be very helpful in fighting general misconceptions about Satanism. Last I checked, the a large part of the public still viewed satanists as insane nazi devilworshippers who eat and sodomize kids for trills.

- Amina

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#27570 - 07/27/09 02:34 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Quote:
I am also sure that Lawis will compare the results with main stream surveys on political views etc. One needs to compare the satanic population to the general public if one wants to show how satanists differ.

I suggest he shouldn't do that. You are working with statistics from a survey whom not everyone might take serious, I.e. the fault on your calculations is HUGE.
Statistics are known to work only for a vast amount of people, i.e. your test group. Knowing there are many dipshits who may give the results a "twist" the result shouldn't be used to give a "global view" on Satanists. (Probably one of the things Gilmore is fearing since they may come out negatively).

Being an academic I can only say that the safest way to have a VALID survey is by sending out letters with the survey whom people must fill out by hand. The survey you (or they) are doing now isn't valid for this reason. Comparing it to make a conclusion about political affilation or views is almost considered a SIN.

On a side-note:
 Quote:
If you look in academic literature or magazines, you would soon realize that Lewis and Melton are some of the esteemed experts on new religions.

Esteemed experts on new religions? Hell, I can even be one too. Exploring and investigating "new religions" is far more simple then investigation of..let's say Christianity and it's roots, new religions are barely shaken or disturbed by opposing groups who had influences and formed a side-branch to this religion.
I would be more impressed if they were esteemed experts on "old religions".. some things are heavy shit to investigate then.


Edited by Dimitri (07/27/09 02:37 PM)
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#27571 - 07/27/09 02:39 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I think the Washington Post could count as slightly reliable when reporting about his paid excursion as a pro-deo for Aum. Of course, they might be very anti-cultic and have made it all up.

My other quote can be found at "whatisscientology.org", hardly able to be accused of being anti-cultic. I doubt he would have let them post a fraud-quotation there. So easily to have it pulled when he would not agree.

So yes my resources might not be that great but they sure beat your phenomenal defense. I just raised some questions about unbiased.

Your misconception about Satanism is biased already because Satanism and nazism (using the global scaremongering label) should be opposites it seems. If I'm wrong in it, feel free to expand.

D.

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#27573 - 07/27/09 03:14 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Dimitri]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
I suggest he shouldn't do that. You are working with statistics from a survey whom not everyone might take serious, I.e. the fault on your calculations is HUGE.


And this is different from other surveys in small populations?

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Statistics are known to work only for a vast amount of people, i.e. your test group. Knowing there are many dipshits who may give the results a "twist" the result shouldn't be used to give a "global view" on Satanists.


Dimitri, people who work with minority groups and statistic know this - trust me. In the old survey it was even discussed as a problem that the survey was done on the internet, and because of that excluded all the satanists who did not use the net. It was not possible to solve this problem, but it was of cause thought about in the analysis of the answers.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Being an academic I can only say that the safest way to have a VALID survey is by sending out letters with the survey whom people must fill out by hand. The survey you (or they) are doing now isn't valid for this reason.


No surveys a perfect. You always have to choose between not making a survey at all and depend on pure guesswork, or making the best survey you can. Mailing letters is not an option because Lewis do not have access to mailinfo on all satanists - no one does. Not even the CoS. But this do not make the survey invalid. A lot of surveys are made by phone interviews or by internet surveys, and that IS valid as long as your are aware of the problems involved and take them into account in your analysis.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Esteemed experts on new religions? Hell, I can even be one too. Exploring and investigating "new religions" is far more simple then investigation of..let's say Christianity and it's roots, new religions are barely shaken or disturbed by opposing groups who had influences and formed a side-branch to this religion.


So you think that big universities just hand out professor titles to anyone who asks for one, and that academic books and articles write themselves? I am sure that almost any field looks easy, if you look on it from outside. In Denmark you have to use five and a half year if you want to be a candidate in the field of history of religion. This is the same number of years as if you want to be a candidate i psychology.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
I would be more impressed if they were esteemed experts on "old religions".. some things are heavy shit to investigate then.


I have studied old and new religions. Old religions are the basic stuff everyone study as students in the field, but it is not much fun because every stone has already been turned. Not much new research can be done on dead religions like the Egyptian one or antic Christianity. You work with text analysis and archeology. In those fields, professors use there whole life fighting over the meaning of one hieroglyph or one ritual jar. The study of new religiouns use theories and methods from antropology, sociology and psychology AND the knowlege about old religions, and investigate real living people and new religions as they appear, evolve and sometimes die. If you want to investigate "new land" and make research that makes a difference for the public and for those involved, new religious groups is the field you want to be in.

I know that at least some of the people who research Satanism do it because of a deeply felt interest in replacing misunderstandings with knowledge. Twenty years ago the satanic panic was investigated by sociologists by the same reason, and that also made a difference. I am sure that people like Aquino remembers this.

- Amina

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#27574 - 07/27/09 03:29 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Diavolo]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I think the Washington Post could count as slightly reliable when reporting about his paid excursion as a pro-deo for Aum. Of course, they might be very anti-cultic and have made it all up.


You are still quoting out of context. I do not know anything about the specific case, but I know what standing Lewis have in the academic community. If you think he has a bias I would suggest reading some of his academic articles or some of his books.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
My other quote can be found at "whatisscientology.org", hardly able to be accused of being anti-cultic.


And you do not think that Scientology would want to make it look like academics support them more then they do? Cults often do that.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Your misconception about satanism is biased already because satanism and nazism (using the global scaremongering label) should be opposites it seems. If I'm wrong in it, feel free to expand.


Having been a satanist for 15 years I have seen my share of Satanists and misconceptions about Satanism. I have also read all the academic literature and much pro and anti-satanic literature. I am aware that I do not know all about Satanism, or have a good-like picture of the phenomena, but I am also sure that I have noticed a few things. I did not imagine the misconceptions OR the satanists involved in nazism. If you want to view those people as nonsatanists, then YOU are biased. Mu definition of Satanism include all who claim to be satanists, but I also divide Satanism into different KINDS of Satanism.

On the mix of nazism and Satanism I could recomend Mattias Gardells book "Gods of the blod".

- Amina

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#27575 - 07/27/09 03:46 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Quote:
Dimitri, people who work with minority groups and statistic know this - trust me. In the old survey it was even discussed as a problem that the survey was done on the internet, and because of that excluded all the satanists who did not use the net. It was not possible to solve this problem, but it was of cause thought about in the analysis of the answers.

Problems can always be solved, it is almost a lie to say it was impossible to solve. A good solution would be approaching some "head-figures" on Satanic communities or groups and ask them if their members would like to fill out the survey by hand. Risks of having false results is decreased, but other risks might raise.

Btw; any sane and well-thinking person wouldn't repeat a same mistake from a previous survey to see how things are going. There are other methods and other solutions available.

 Quote:

No surveys a perfect. You always have to choose between not making a survey at all and depend on pure guesswork, or making the best survey you can. Mailing letters is not an option because Lewis do not have access to mailinfo on all satanists - no one does. Not even the CoS. But this do not make the survey invalid. A lot of surveys are made by phone interviews or by internet surveys, and that IS valid as long as your are aware of the problems involved and take them into account in your analysis.
When someone has acces to the internet they will likely have an email-adress.. It is just a small amount of energy to ask their email, forward the survey and send the letter to a REAL adress...
Well lo and behold.. isn't this a nice solution? Your group might become a tat smaller but at least the result will be more likely right.

 Quote:
So you think that big universities just hand out professor titles to anyone who asks for one, and that academic books and articles write themselves? I am sure that almost any field looks easy, if you look on it from outside. In Denmark you have to use five and a half year if you want to be a candidate in the field of history of religion. This is the same number of years as if you want to be a candidate i psychology.

Some does.. wasn't there a fuzz about universities handing out degrees online? Aren't their rumours of universities who hand out titles and degrees to the persons with the most money?
Wearing any title doesn't make an impression on any critical thinking human being. Professors only are people also, and normal people can make mistakes and have their own faults. It is not because you wear such a title you automatically become "untouchable". Hell, I even know people who make more sense then some teachers or professors... Not wearing the title of "doctor" or "professor" doesn't take away you have a high brain capacity.

Academic articles don't always hold the truth, it's one of the first things I've learned when going to university. An academic article only gives facts wrapped up in a subjective interpretation and only shares a view which must/might or can be discussed. It's a common mistake to show-off with an academic article to proove your statement to others. You only indicate you share the same view. Nothing more nothing less.

 Quote:
I have studied old and new religions. Old religions are the basic stuff everyone study as students in the field, but it is not much fun because every stone has already been turned.

Wrong, you only have the basic with you, find a field of expertise, indulge in the facts and try to find the "how", "why", "when", and relations. Archeology or study of religions doesn't stop at learning who has written what. It goes a tat further then what you ahve seen. University gives a more advanced base for your field of interest. When reaching and succeeding in getting a degree it is up to you to use the knowledge and search deeper, or just do nothing with it.

The study of new religions is much more easier in my opinion since their basics are more easily linked to the different religious streams in which the founder(s) or idea has been born or based upon.

 Quote:
I know that at least some of the people who research satanism do it because of a deeply felt interest in replacing misunderstandings with knowledge.

Subjective views against objective facts...
Theistic Satanists will claim "we" have a misunderstanding of Satanism, and "we" might say otherwise. Point is: you should look every group on itself and point out the facts in each of them for what they believe in. The results of this Survey (IMO) can only be used to see the different percentages of Satanists on the internet. Nothing more. Using it to make correlations between political affilations will fail automatically and will receive lots of critics. Even using this survey as a tool to "blow away the misconceptions about Satanism" is bad. A good choice would be cutting the survey up in different parts (in this case per sort of Satanic belief).


Edited by Dimitri (07/27/09 03:51 PM)
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#27576 - 07/27/09 03:53 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Check this link: cult apologetics

It's of course one of the many pages out there and could be seen as not that credible but they have links enough to studies or reports or news articles that are credible. Dismissing it all as anti-something by definition is hardly logical.
Anyways, I hardly care if he is getting lunch money from others but it isn't bad to ponder about how credible he is and how unbiased everything in the end is.

I personally prefer misconceptions about Satanism. I think the satanic panic is at some levels the best that ever happened to Satanism. Silly I fully agree but it does have its charming side effects. There is no reason to inform the public how pretty and fluffy Satanism is because if the public should agree on that, Satanism did make a wrong turn somewhere.

I don't see where I am saying that satanists that are nazis are not satanists? I assume you misread something. There are a lot of branches in Satanism and although I at times prefer to call them non-satanic, I think it is better to consider them satanic idiots. JoS as spearhead without a doubt. But they still are entitled as much as I to the label. But satanic nazis in the traditional 88 sense I haven't met too much. I'm ten years on this board enduring wave after wave of all sorts of satanists, most short-lasting I admit but I hardly remember one claiming to be a nazi. In the traditional sense of course. Anyways, nazi and fascism is debated elsewhere here so I am not going to invest time in it too much longer.

Thanks for the book tip, I'll check it out.

D.

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#27577 - 07/27/09 04:21 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Dimitri]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Problems can always be solved, it is almost a lie to say it was impossible to solve. A good solution would be approaching some "head-figures" on Satanic communities or groups and ask them if their members would like to fill out the survey by hand. Risks of having false results is decreased, but other risks might raise.


I do not think all organizations would want to take part in this, not all satanists are members of an org or would want to tell there adresses to anyone, it would be very expensive (remember, the satanic population live around the whole world!) etc. In Denmark, we mailed questionnaires to our own members, but only few responded by letter. It was very expensive to send out the letters, and in the end, most preferred to replay using the Internet survey. If Lewis was to use snailmail, someone would have to pay the cost of sending out 1000 letters or so with stamped replay envelopes to like 50 different countries. And he would also have to count in, that a lot of organizations inflate there numbers and asks for a bigger number of questionnaires then they need, and probably fill them out themselves. It is better to deal directly with the respondents then depend on organizations in my opinion.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
There are other methods and other solutions available.


Any specific suggestions?

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
When someone has acces to the internet they will likely have an email-adress.. It is just a small amount of energy to ask their email, forward the survey and send the letter to a REAL adress...


Problem: people do usually not want to hand out there real address, and in my experience, the respondents actually prefer answering on the internet.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Well lo and behold.. isn't this a nice solution? Your group might become a tat smaller but at least the result will be more likely right.


How? People can still cheat.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Some does.. wasn't there a fuzz about universities handing out degrees online?


As i said BIG universities. Lewis is a professor in the Department of Philosophy at the University of Wisconsin. Look up his contribution to the bookshelves and notice the publishers who have published his books. Or go to google and look him up at google scholar.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Wearing any title doesn't make an impression on any critical thinking human being. Professors only are people also, and normal people can make mistakes and have their own faults.


See above.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
The study of new religions is much more easier in my opinion since their basics are more easily linked to the different religious streams in which the founder(s) or idea has been born or based upon.


A topic always looks more simple from outside.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
A good choice would be cutting the survey up in different parts (in this case per sort of Satanic belief).


People are asked about affiliation. This make it possible to say something in general AND say something about specific groups. You could as an example look at affiliation and see if the ToS or the FCOS has most female members taking the survey. Of cause you are unable to say much about those who did not take part in the survey, but that is always a problem with surveys. In my opinion, the first survey was more useful then pour guesswork, and I am sure this one will be too. AND the survey is not the only way researchers are investigating Satanism - other research have been done analyzing official webpages, posts at messagebords, articles and books written by satanists etc. I really wish that people would read some of the books that have been published already.

- Amina

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