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#27656 - 07/28/09 09:46 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: Amina
What I see is someone trying to discourage people from taking part in the survey, and I don't think I like that.

Ah finally the words needed to unlock my reply to this hogwash.

I am god and I can be a wonderful god or I could be a god who smites anyone on a whim. I am the devil I can be as of your family or I can thrust you out into the cold and dark with no feeling of regret or worry as to your well being. I am the creator of gods and fantastical realms. I am also the destroyer and can be responsible for many deaths and much destruction. I am the beginning and the end nothing before me really mattered, as anything after me will not matter. All this and more I can describe with only one title……. MAN (human). How would you define a Satanist again?

Since when did it become our duty to stand up and be counted? To define and demystify Satanism so the average Internet idiot can sit and Google search to find an answer to such a question? People like you disgust me, both you and your husband walking in here like you are some crowned prince and princess of Satanism. Fucking clueless. Thinking you (insert name here) could be one who helps shape the definition or understanding of Satanism. Striving to try to be the next LaVey the next great voice of Satanism. I scoff at such ignorance, such is the way of the average neophyte.

I agree with the CoS stance on not participating in this study or any other for that matter. But then I am not one who worries how recognized I am in any online community. I do find it amusing and worrisome just how many of you feel and submit to the need to be counted. Line up and get your ear tagged don’t worry you are number 666.

Perhaps in my spare time I just might fill out a few dozen of this survey to screw up the results a bit. Maybe start a myspace, youtube, facebook campaign and enlist some of these young misguided adults and children to help. Ah if I was only a youth again all the time I could have put into this.

Such is the way of a true adversary.

Have a nice day.

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#27658 - 07/28/09 10:13 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Dimitri]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

Ah Dimitri so much thought and time put into this. Most surveys are incorrect as any data can be manipulated. I mean seriously if I were to embark on a smear campaign (if it really mattered to me) to ruin this survey how hard would it really be?

Did you know that in 2001 the census for England and Wales shows that 390,000 are Jedi?

This Satanic survey is a joke and being done for whatever reasons the person doing it has. Whatever his reasons it will not likely benefit any of us in any way.

Enjoy yourself

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#27667 - 07/29/09 12:20 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: wolf]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
Big Slick
active member


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 990
Loc: Texas
Really? Who the fuck cares? It's an online survey. Just like the 100's I get on Myspace and Facebook. Which car are you? Which color are you? Which tarot card are you? This is scientific study? This is of importance? I took the survey because I was bored and the questions(most of them) seemed intelligently asked. As others have rationally pointed out, this survey is not the "be all, end all" survey to define Satanists or Satanic trends.

There is no need to get our panties in a bunch about it and come out swinging. Participate or not. Answer honestly or not. What's it matter?

Like Ta2zz alluded to, I could take this survey multiple times, using multiple computers, from multiple locations, using multiple accounts, and answer differently each time. BFD!!!!
_________________________
Beer, the reason I get up every afternoon.

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#27675 - 07/29/09 01:08 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: wolf]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Originally Posted By: wolf
I don't think that is the reason. At the time I was a member of the Church of Satan, it was very important to the Church of Satan that other kinds of Satanism were never acknowledged as valid definitions. If this happened, the Church of Satan would lose its ownership of the term and would have to compete on equal foot with other Satanic organizations. If the Church of Satan openly acknowledged that other kinds of Satanism were valid definitions, then the Church of Satan could no longer claim its unique ownership of the term. This would be highly problematic to the Church of Satan, since all they have to offer that other organizations can't offer is LaVey's legacy.

The refusal of the Church of Satan to engage in any study or participate on web sites that recognized other kinds of Satanism was sheer politics: it was a battle for authority and ownership of the term "Satanism," and probably still is.


Wow, I think that is the most amount of times anyone has ever said "Church of Satan" in a post. Odd thing to point out, I know, but there it is.

That being said; I really don't think CoS does have ownership of the term "Satanism". I wouldn't be surprised if they, and by "they" I of course mean Gilmore, would like to claim ownership of the word. If they did indeed own the rights to that word and its definition, a lot of people would be paying royalties to CoS for use of the word.

I also don't think CoS will ever have to "compete on equal foot with other Satanic organizations". What other "Satanic organizations" actually exist out there, aside from FSC? Let me point out that I am not talking about organizations like JoS, or "Satanic Sam's Super Satanic Sinagogue", that really only "exist" on line.

While I agree that all they have to offer is LaVey's legacy, I do not agree they are the only ones who can offer that. I am sure Karla LaVey's FSC captures it well. (If not better since all CoS seems to care about is ownership of a silly word)

If this "competition" is indeed about the ownership of a word; then who fucking cares anyway? Satanism is to be lived, it doesn't matter how many books you've read, what church you belong to or how many Enochian Keys you can recite from memory. There are people who live by Satanic prinicples without ever having read TSB or any other related literature. It is not the name that it is important, it is the idea and how you put it into practice that matters.

If you care about the ownership of the word Satanism, I think you are missing the point.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#27815 - 08/02/09 03:56 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Morgan]
wolf Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/27/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Honestly Wolf, you are out of line.

You have taken this thread off line into a personal attack mode.

Please address that complaint to Dimitri, who launched his ad hominem attack and disrespectful reply to begin with.

 Quote:
No one cares who you are. You may be someone in Demark, but here, you are just like everyone else, nobody.

It isn't about me, but about Dimitri showing that he doesn't know his who's who before launching an ad hominem attack against someone.

 Quote:
I don't remember you ever posting, and Amera your wife comes and goes through here. Hardly worth remembering at times.

Then allow me to remind you that this board isn't all the Satanism that exists.

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#27816 - 08/02/09 04:12 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: fakepropht]
wolf Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/27/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: fakepropht
I could take this survey multiple times, using multiple computers, from multiple locations, using multiple accounts, and answer differently each time. BFD!!!!

Sure it's possible to cheat. Lots of bozos might also complete the survey and thus show that Satanists in general are a stupid bunch. But then, surveys are inherently inaccurate, and a skilled researcher will generally be able to analyze the submitted answers and determine a general trend, deliberate obstruction attempts or not. Should lots of bozos and few others decide to complete the survey, then perhaps most Satanists really are idiots.

Surveys such as this one might help us realize what kind of "group" we are, differences aside. I recall that his 2001 survey provided the first statistical data showing that Satanism are more than just confused teens, and that Satanists aren't the they a bunch of losers they were often made to be by our enemies.
_________________________
A comfortable falsehood will always win out over an uncomfortable truth. (Myself)

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#27817 - 08/02/09 04:12 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: ta2zz]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: ta2zz
This Satanic survey is a joke and being done for whatever reasons the person doing it has. Whatever his reasons it will not likely benefit any of us in any way.


One can make all kinds of guesses as to the quality of research and the intention of the people who do it. As stated before, I suggest that people actually read and evaluate the research done before 2000 and after 2000. Knowledge being better then belief and all that... One will find that almost all the serious research has been published after 2000, and that Lewis has had some sort of connection to it. One can have all kinds of different reasons for not wanting research done on Satanism, but I for one values knowledge over misconceptions, stereotypes and misinformation. Lewis' survey is not the biggest gift to humankind, but IMO it is still a lot better then guesswork or deliberate misinformation.

What do we have to hide? Some are scared that the survey will show how internetsatanists are, but who are we kidding? Do people really think that researchers are not reading boards, e-lists and all the other forums? In the old days of anthropology the joke was that every native American family included an anthropologist. With the amount of people studying Satanism these days, and the relative small amount of big forums connected to Satanism, I am sure that all the bigger forums have several people following the debate and studying it. I know that this board is no exception.

*waves to the researchers she know are watching the debate*

- Amina

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#27824 - 08/02/09 05:36 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Jake999]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Jake999
AND you're stereotyping ALL Satanists


No I am not. I was curious about how many satanists sympathize with nazism and neo nazism. I know some do, and I know older groups like The Order of the Left Hand Path and Order of Nine Angels did. I can also see that some of the users on this board sympathize with the ONA (without knowing if this also shows a sympathy towards nazism in any form). Looking at old issues of Black Flame I also see satanists mixing racism, nazism and Satanism. Reading up on nazism and paganism I can see a change from mixing christianity and nazism to mixing paganism and nazism, and I am curious if this also will affect Satanism. This survey will probably not be able to show a change (I do not think we have any old data to compare with), but it will show something, and the data can be compared with new surveys and other research.

I DID stereotype satanists when I complained about American satanists not reading academic work on Satanism, but this is my experience. I would be very happy to be proved wrong on this point.

 Originally Posted By: Jake999
(other than apparently those in Denmark, where you seem to feel that the whole of real civilization lies.)


I don't think we are more civilized, but from my experience we have another opinion *on research*. Maybe because the land is smaller and a lot of us have met those who study Satanism in Scandinavia and talked to them, or read there work or interviews in the media. A few years back we had yearly "satanic summer camp" with most of the active satanist in Denmark attending, and we invited one of the academic experts on Satanism (a Dane) to visit us and talk about his work, so most of us know him or know of him. We have also had other researchers visit us and stay with us like Søderlind who wrote the book "Lords of Chaos" together with Michael Moynihan, and researchers add to the discussions on Danish forums.

I think it makes a difference that I have used the last 8 years studying in the same academia field as those who study Satanism, but I still think I see a difference in attitude in Denmark/Scandinavia and in the US. In my experience it is as if Americans don't even think religion can or should be studied like any other cultural field. In Denmark, history of religion (that is the atheistic study of religion as a man made cultural system) is part of a lot of peoples high school education - maybe that is the difference? I know I am generalizing now, but as stated this is my *experience*, not anything supported by surveys or other data.

 Originally Posted By: Jake999
You've been a Satanist for 15 years and you seem to find Nazis everywhere.


No I do not. Se my explanation above.

 Originally Posted By: Jake999
I've been a Satanist for damn near 40, and I find it's an aberration amongst those I've known or corresponded with; and that would be quite a few from many areas around the world. I will grant you, however, that the issue of Satanism and Naziism has been around since the earliest days of the Church, when the news media locked on to the prominence of red and black as colors favored in its symbolism. There was an open complaint by its detractors that one never saw "blacks or jews" in the Church of Satan membership.


I do not disagree with you. This also corresponds to what I have seen and/or read.

 Originally Posted By: Jake999
And although they are a statistic blip in on the radar screen in any worldwide Satanic "movement," certainly one will find those who might choose National Socialism as a political vehicle, or they might be a Republican, a Democrat, a Libertarian, a member of the Green Party, an Anarchist.


My personal experience AND the last survey showed this too. I would be surprised if it is different this time.

 Originally Posted By: Jake999
I find it interesting, and while you seem totally enamored of Lewis and others who're so active in this field,


I am in the same field, and I am a bit frustrated about some of the misconceptions about how research is done in the field etc. Some of it is just plain silly.

 Originally Posted By: Jake999
you're coming off as someone who's mind is already made up as to what must be. That has caused many an honest researcher "cook the books" and force findings to fit their agenda. I'd urge continued research, but back off from the stereotyping and the prejudice. They only taint any semblance of impartiality in academia.


One way to dissolve stereotypes is to investigate them. One of the stereotypes Lewis investigated last time is the misconception that most satanists are teens who rabel against there parents, and that Satanism is just a flick for most. Lewis already knew enough about Satanism to view this as an misconception, but by including questions about age, number of years involved in Satanism etc. he could show it to be a misconception. You and I see it as a misconception that Satanism and nazism should be the most natural mix, but we do not have any data to prove it (yet). The last survey showed that satanists supported all kinds of political ideologies, and did not view Satanism as connected to any political ideology, and I would be very surprised if this have changed much. How much have *really* happened in the last eight years?

On the other hand, I would also be interested in knowing if the members of some groups are more likely to support some political views then others. I would be surprised if those who support the ONA usually also support the left wing in politics, or if those who support The Satanic Reds (if they still exist!) usually votes to the right - but who knows - it could be the case. The CoS is a mixed group if one looks at political views, and so is Satanism in general if one is to trust the old survey, but I would be surprised if all groups are as mixed as the CoS.

- Amina

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#27832 - 08/02/09 07:43 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Morgan Offline
Princess of Hell
stalker


Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
Loc: New York City
In regards to the last 4 posts....

SO FUCKING WHAT!!!!!!

The last survey was done of 140 people.

I have over 2500 people on my myspace page. About 90 percent of them are Satanists or affiliated with Satanists.

Theses people are all over the world.

So now matter what the survey shows, most of us here already know the results. Below are my estimations:

Mostly white men, middle of the road politics wise, some college education, and over 13 years involved with Satanism, with an average age of 30.

Its a survey as Fakepropht said, most of us do them all the time.
Its no big deal, when he gets more people who do the survey than I know, I will pay attention.

Oh, and btw, I did the survey last time too.
Demnark has like about 5 million people, it is still smaller than the borough I live in, let alone the total population of New York City.

\:\)

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#27840 - 08/03/09 01:51 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: wolf]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3138
 Originally Posted By: wolf
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Honestly Wolf, you are out of line.

You have taken this thread off line into a personal attack mode.

Please address that complaint to Dimitri, who launched his ad hominem attack and disrespectful reply to begin with.

 Quote:
No one cares who you are. You may be someone in Demark, but here, you are just like everyone else, nobody.

It isn't about me, but about Dimitri showing that he doesn't know his who's who before launching an ad hominem attack against someone.

 Quote:
I don't remember you ever posting, and Amera your wife comes and goes through here. Hardly worth remembering at times.

Then allow me to remind you that this board isn't all the Satanism that exists.

Whine whine whine...
Please someone, just ban this pseudo academic troll. The only thing he is doing here is defending his fuckbuddy without actually contributing something..
If you indeed are seeking for "academic books about Satanism" you'd better check out the reading list. It contains academic littrature with nice examples of Satanic thinking.

If you can't even see the difference between an "attack" or critisism what the fuck are you doing here then?
An attack involves personal violence, critisism involves pointing out weak points in a statement, action and so on...
Critisism is never a violation unless taken personally.


Edited by Dimitri (08/03/09 01:56 AM)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#27843 - 08/03/09 02:34 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Now now Dimi, let's not get shouting for a ban. Even when debates like this inevitable become hot, they are interesting at other levels.

The real issue here is who gains by having (compromised) information about Satanism?

Well, satanists do not. At some levels going public about Satanism is a bit like putting the sign "dangerous dog" at the entry to your backyard. The idea behind having a dog there is that he rips someone apart whenever he enters, so informing them before, kind of defeats the whole purpose. It's a bit like a 'do not steal the jewelry that is in my left drawer' you leave for burglars.
Satanist themselves know pretty well what they are about and how the situation is. They also know pretty well what age range the people they interact with are, what their political inclinations are and what kind of jobs they do. Those that don't, don't really care. After all people are not into Satanism for the tea parties and social gatherings. So basically we all know what we need to know or not care at all.

So satanists don't really benefit of it. So who besides the researchers benefit? They do for sure, charity seldom is a drive for research.

The only two parties I can come up with are those disliking Satanism and looking for a 'told you so' argument and those being public satanists having themselves identified with the label a bit too much and due to that, are also looking for a 'told you so' argument. Both need them to solve their issues. None is solving our issues of course but to be frank, we do not have issues.

One of the problems of identifying with Satanism in the (public) media, is that too often one starts to subject themselves (and Satanism) to houseniggery. Satanism has to be cleaned up, polished and packed into a fluffy wrapping. If not, one suffers the consequences. And as such, one starts to develop a 'true' version of Satanism that doesn't reflect bad on the media-satanist. As such, one also starts to divide Satanism into the good guys and the bad guys. And this is exactly what you are doing. If I read your website (satanisk forum), and yes I used a translator, Danish takes too long for me to puzzle through, I see all the evidence I need of houseniggery. It's understandable, saviors need to wear clean cloths but it greatly compromises your position as unbiased, and in that, all results that will be concluded by you. ONA is bad in your eyes and yes you are right; it is bad. It should be bad because Satanism is bad. But your bad or societal bad isn't other's bad. And in the end, who suffers from it being bad? Only those being the public face of Satanism. So nazism, asked to be added by you to the survey only serves a 'told you so' reason. Biased? Without a doubt.

D.


Edited by Diavolo (08/03/09 03:12 AM)

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#27845 - 08/03/09 04:48 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Morgan]
Bacchae Offline
Satan's White Trash Neighbor
member


Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 438
Loc: los angeles
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
In regards to the last 4 posts....

SO FUCKING WHAT!!!!!!

The last survey was done of 140 people.

I have over 2500 people on my myspace page. About 90 percent of them are Satanists or affiliated with Satanists.

Theses people are all over the world.

So now matter what the survey shows, most of us here already know the results. Below are my estimations:

Mostly white men, middle of the road politics wise, some college education, and over 13 years involved with Satanism, with an average age of 30.

Its a survey as Fakepropht said, most of us do them all the time.
Its no big deal, when he gets more people who do the survey than I know, I will pay attention.

Oh, and btw, I did the survey last time too.
Demnark has like about 5 million people, it is still smaller than the borough I live in, let alone the total population of New York City.

\:\)

Morgan



Morgan nailed it, and little else needs to be said. this thread has gotten out of hand.

this illiterate american has his uneducated finger on the lock button...

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#27850 - 08/03/09 09:24 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Diavolo]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Well, satanists do not. At some levels going public about satanism is a bit like putting the sign "dangerous dog" at the entry to your backyard. The idea behind having a dog there is that he rips someone apart whenever he enters, so informing them before, kind of defeats the whole purpose.


If you had a dog in your backyard and it riped someone apart, you would be prosecuted (at least in Denmark). That is why people put up signs - to keep people away without being prosecuted. That said - who do you think you can fool? The media and Christian literature has its misconceptions about Satanism (and a lot of other subjects), but Satanism is not a secret conspiracy. In the old days of LaVey two anthropologists did undercover research on the CoS. When LaVey was informed about the bluff, he viewed it as a clever use of lesser magic. Today undercover work is not seen as ethical, but studying difficult groups is still done. People do valid research on neonazi groups, terrorist groups, suicide cults, new religious movements like scientology, youth movements, internet comminities, drug culture etc. etc. Thinking Satanism should be harder to investigate or more subversive or dangerous is IMO a rather obvious misconception.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Satanist themselves know pretty well what they are about and how the situation is. They also know pretty well what age range the people they interact with are, what their political inclinations are and what kind of jobs they do.


And how does this differ from investigations of other religious, political, ethnic or occupational groups? Members of groups usually have an opinion, but this does not make the field of sociology useless or replaceable by simply asking one member of the group about his or her opinion. It is also obvious, that Lewis would have gotten different results if he had just asked me, you, Peter Gilmore, Aquino or someone else. If this was not obvious, we would not have this discussion in the first place.

Maybe you are unable to see the value of sociological research, but sociology can be used when one wans to understand phenomenas in society. As an example sociology was used during the Satanic Panic to understand why people believed in satanic conspiracies. If the data had showed that satanists actually DID sacrifice 10.000 people to Satan every year, as some groups claimed, I am sure the war on terror would have looked as a summer camp in comparison to the war on Satanism, and I am sure no public internet forums on Satanism like this one would be present today. Satanism has not been left alone because the government and researcher fear it, but because it has been viewed as unworthy of notice.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
So satanists don't really benefit of it. So who besides the researchers benefit? They do for sure, charity seldom is a drive for research.


Some did and some do. Ask Aquino how it was to be a satanist in the days of the panic. He has stories to tell. Ask some of the satanists who have to "stay in the closed" out of fear of being jailed or prosecuted if there government find out they use satanic internet forums (muslim contries), or some of the satanists who have lost jobs or connections because of misconceptions, or who have been investigated by police because the connection to Satanism made them look suspicious. I especially remember one incident of a CoS magister who was investigate in connection with his child's crib death, just because the police found out that he had a connection to Satanism. If governments really believed in all the misconceptions about Satanism, just visiting web pages on Satanism could probably get people prosecuted.

Most controversial groups like being investigated by academics because it help them get the same rights as other groups in society without having to hide there beliefs, and without having to be scared of being outed or prosecuted or banned without reason. The only groups who usually do not want to be investigated are groups who are involved with something illegal or subversive. I do not think this is the case with Satanism, and when one looks at the CoS' arguments against investigations, one gets the idea that people do not fear anything "evil", illegal or subversive being uncovered. The fear looks more as a fear of something embarrassing being uncovered, like a big amount of "dodoos" or devilworshippers (as mentioned by the CoS), or maybe just the not so surprising truth that the average satanists don't differ that much from the average person (a truth found in most surveys on minority groups).

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Satanism has to be cleaned up, polished and packed into a fluffy wrapping. If not, one suffers the consequences. And as such, one starts to develop a 'true' version of satanism that doesn't reflect bad on the media-satanist. As such, one also starts to divide satanism into the good guys and the bad guys.


Look, I can understand why you would want to have a bad reputation as an evil motherfucker connected to your secret online nickname. But honestly, do you actually do anything so scary and evil, that you would be prosecuted if you told people about it? The only cases of satanists I have see that I felt a need to disassociate myself from have been people who I honestly think should be classified not a satanists but as insane or immature. I am thinking on cases with people killing or sexually abusing infants and blaming it on "satanic voices", or teens who kill animals just because of the trill. Prising those kinds of actions or linking them to Satanism would in my opinion not do anything good. Telling people that most satanists do not hurt children or animals, or that the CoS has a strong negative view on crime, is consistent with fact and not something that turn Satanism into a white fluffy bunny.


 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
And this is exactly what you are doing. If I read your website (satanisk forum), and yes I used a translator,


Oh my good. From Google to bablefish. I will not even comment on this.

- Amina

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#27851 - 08/03/09 09:44 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Morgan]
wolf Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/27/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
The last survey was done of 140 people.

I have over 2500 people on my myspace page. About 90 percent of them are Satanists or affiliated with Satanists.

There are a few things covered by scientific method that may explain why the former is better than the latter. Your estimated numbers are quite probable, but alas: there's a little more to surveys than figuring out what the averages are.


Edited by wolf (08/03/09 09:49 AM)
_________________________
A comfortable falsehood will always win out over an uncomfortable truth. (Myself)

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#27852 - 08/03/09 09:48 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Bacchae]
wolf Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/27/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Bacchae
this illiterate american has his uneducated finger on the lock button...

Up to you. However, if you decide to follow Dimitri's request for a ban, I'd appreciate it if you traced the thread to where it got out of hand: it happened when Dimitri got personal, that is, when he made his very first reply to my post.
_________________________
A comfortable falsehood will always win out over an uncomfortable truth. (Myself)

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