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#27853 - 08/03/09 10:23 AM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Morgan]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Mostly white men, middle of the road politics wise, some college education, and over 13 years involved with Satanism, with an average age of 30.


I think the last survey showed a average involvement of around eight years. I remember thinking this was an interesting fact. We have a lot of data on other religious and political groups, and all data show (not surprisingly!) that not all who join a group stays in the group. Actually most people leave again within months, some stay for a few years, and only few people stay for many years. Those who stay for many years are usually only a very small minority (like 2%), even in groups accused of using "brainwash" like scientology. And they often stay because of social connections. An average involvement of eight years (or thirteen) do not fit this pattern. Comparing the data to what is known on other groups tell me and other researcher that satanists differs a lot from other similar groups (this would be very interesting and worth investigating) OR (and this is what is most plausible) that the newcommers who had only been involved in Satanism for a few weeks or months where underrepresented in the survey (some of them maybe not even investigating Satanism online yet). If this is true, then all the other facts in the survey (like average age, political opinions and beliefs) should also be analyses with this in mind.

- Amina

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#27859 - 08/03/09 02:47 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The fact that people do research on whatever organization does not imply anyone should cooperate or even see it as valid. The very fact that some do consider this work valuable does not make it valuable. You're so called glorification of it as a benefit to society is just a balloon to give it some presence which in reality isn't there. Who benefits of this? None but those throwing another book on the market about dark cults, or modern fringe religions or whatever fancy name they want to slap on it. Don't confuse their needs with our needs. Satanism isn't there to benefit society. What part of Satanism made you ever think it was in a love relation with society to begin with?

Your suggestion that sociological work somewhat helped Satanism during the satanic panic is funny at least. I do think what helped Satanism most is that there was no evidence at all for satanic ritual abuse or sacrifices. No matter how many sociological works one would bring in favour, if there is enough evidence, there will be convictions (unless you're O.J.). That's how a legal system works. At least down here. So please don't present it as the Moses that saved us out of Egypt.

Satanism does not demand anything. Some Satanists demand the same rights as other groups out there. But again, that is confusing the needs of some with the needs of all. Satanists have all the rights they want. Anyone wearing their religion on their sleeve and then demanding to be accepted as full by everyone should be kicked in the butt. Since when did we support egalitarianism? Last I remember is that we spit upon that, so if some are discriminated by society, so be it. Who can be discriminated if they don't go public about their convictions? In the USA it is considered political suicide to NOT believe in god. I guess all the sociological studies about Atheism not being as amoral as some fundies present it did not do much there. And that's Atheism, one of the most harmless convictions. If you're heterodox, don’t go public about it. Thought crime still is hard to prove. Change Satanism with paedophilia and you see how silly the argument is. Next time the paedophiles go public and demand equal rights, does anyone think that is a good or smart idea too?

Do I risk prosecution for anything I do or say? Doesn't anyone here in Europe risk prosecution (social or legal) if he is heterodox enough in his approach or if he defines his own right? Does it bother me? Not at all, it forces people at least to be smart and cunning in what they do. It might be hard to understand for people living in a domesticated environment but I can assure you, there is more happening out there than what Joe Average does. Does it make me a bad motherfucker? That's to others to decide, I prefer to see myself as a rather nice guy.

Your smart but weak escape about google through babelfish (I assume you don't google but directly pull all links out of a neural database) is nice but not efficient to escape the question why you call ONA pseudo-Satanism in public but at the same time prefer to wrap yourself into your unbiased cloak that regards all branches in Satanism as equal.

D.

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#27860 - 08/03/09 03:08 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: wolf]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The lock button and the ban button are two entirely different buttons here. I personally don't prefer to see any used as long as it isn't necessary. It is however their decision.
This debate is interesting at least and although many do disagree on this particular subject, I do prefer to see more input of the both of you on other subjects. Pluralism in opinions makes things interesting. Of course as a bad motherfucker, I should probably say "die sucker die!". ;\)

Let's also not complain about ad hominem. We do not really have a code of honor when debating and at times it is just too funny to use them. Your misses does also not shy away from them, so either you slap her ass tonight (I know you love to) or you agree others are entitled to act similar.

D.

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#27862 - 08/03/09 03:40 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Diavolo]
wolf Offline
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Registered: 07/27/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Since when did we support egalitarianism? Last I remember is that we spit upon that, so if some are discriminated by society, so be it.

It's self-destructive to encourage those in power to wield it if their agenda is to eliminate you.

 Quote:
Next time the paedophiles go public and demand equal rights, does anyone think that is a good or smart idea too?

If Satanists had really been molesting children as suggested during the Satanic Panic, then it would be an equally bad idea to go public and demand equal rights. But then, unlike paedophiles, Satanists didn't molest children. Please don't imply that those two groups are comparable on those terms.
_________________________
A comfortable falsehood will always win out over an uncomfortable truth. (Myself)

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#27863 - 08/03/09 03:54 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: wolf]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Seriously Wolf, none can be eliminated for having specific ideas. That's being dramatic. If you don't go public about your inclinations, people don't know shit. If they don't know shit, they can hardly eliminate you. Once you get past the teen stage, you know it is better to blend in than stand out. It's not as if they know what religion we have by looking at our penis, as has been done in the past.

In that respect claiming to be a paedophile is as valid an argument as being a satanist. Try being a racist in current Europe. Cui bono is the only question to be asked when considering going public or not. None needs a messiah to lead them to freedom. At the very least, we should be able to save ourselves.

I don't think many Satanists in the Middle East (if there are any) are having a dark-pride. Does it make them less of a satanist? Does it in whatever aspect discriminate them in society? Not all all. Such ideas are only upheld by people trying to save that what doesn't need to be saved in the first place.

D.

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#27864 - 08/03/09 04:04 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Diavolo]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
The fact that people do research on whatever organization does not imply anyone should cooperate or even see it as valid.


There is more then one issue at play in this. 1) I agree that people can have any kind of subjective feelings about anything. 2) The CoS and others attacked the credibility of the researcher and the quality of research. As far as I can see, you even did this without reading the work in question (the before mentioned books and articles). People can have any kinds of subjective feelings, but I for one have more trust in peer reviews done by other professionals in the field.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
What part of Satanism made you ever think it was in a love relation with society to begin with?


If you read LaVey and read up on humanistic psychology, counter culture and other movements from the 60ties and 70ties you will see a lot of similarities. Satanism, as any other social phenomena is a child of its culture and its time period. Satanism wants to play the outlaw and mirror society, but a mirror only differs that much from the original. LaVeys Satanism could not have appeared in any other culture or time, and it is as much a part of society as mirror of it. That said, LaVey too spoke about 8 parts respectability. I know that some do not view LaVey as relevant, but he is still a part of Satanism.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Your suggestion that sociological work somewhat helped Satanism during the satanic panic is funny at least. I do think what helped Satanism most is that there was no evidence at all for satanic ritual abuse or sacrifices. No matter how many sociological works one would bring in favour, if there is enough evidence, there will be convictions (unless you're O.J.). That's how a legal system works. At least down here.


...and that is why a lot of people ended up in jail accused of satanic ritual abuse? People are still in jail because of false accusations made during the Satanic Panic. Some have been in jail for more then 20 years. I think you should try to read up on the topic.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Anyone wearing their religion on their sleeve and then demanding to be accepted as full by everyone should be kicked in the butt.


And anyone who was born in a Muslim country should just follow Muslim law or leave the community? As a female I am very aware that females did not have the right to vote, the right to run for office, the right to own land and so on in the old days. This was changed. Gays used to be killed and a still killed in some places in the world, but this has also changed and is changing. Blacks used to be slaves. Why not change society in other ways, if you are able to do so? I for one would not want to stay in any closed, unless I was forced to do so.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Who can be discriminated if they don't go public about their convictions?


Okay, let me give you an example. I have two kids. I could not hide my belief from my kids (ever parent knows that nothing can be hidden from kids), and I would not want to, because I as a mother want to share my views with my kids. I could share my views without mentioning Satanism, but then I still had to explain why most of our friends have pentagrams, what those funny websides are about on and so on. Being open about Satanism with my kids could make my kids tell about Satanism at school. If the school believed Satanism was connected to child molestation or human sacrifice I am rather sure they would react and call the cops. If the cops had the same conception, they would come an remove my kids. As it is now, I am open and have good relations with the school, the police, the other parents and so on. The gays came out of the closet years ago, prostitutes can be seen on the street, and neonazies have public spoakes persons. IMO most satanists do not act in ways society should react more to or fear more, so why should we try to convince people we are more subversive then gays, prostitutes and neonazis?

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
In the USA it is considered political suicide to NOT believe in god.


In Denmark it is considered strange to mention god if you are in politics. We even have priest who publicly declare that they do not believe in god, but who are allowed to stay in the job.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I guess all the sociological studies about atheism not being as amoral as some fundies present it did not do much there. And that's atheism, one of the most harmless convictions. If you're heterodox, don’t go public about it. Thought crime still is hard to prove. Change Satanism with paedophilia and you see how silly the argument is. Next time the paedophiles go public and demand equal rights, does anyone think that is a good or smart idea too?


LaVey was not prosecuted or burned on the stake. Peter Gilmore and others in the present CoS do not complain about being prosecuted. LaVey and others where proved when Satanism was recognized as a legitimate belief by the army, and a few years back they where happy when it was recognized by the UK army too. I do not see them complain, but I see them stand up for what they believe in without being prosecuted, and fight for what they want and getting it. I do not sympathize with other parts of the CoS politic, but I respect there ability to be an open organization represented by people who show there faces without fear. If they had been burned on the stake it would have been stupid of them to do so , but they show that it can be done if people have the balls to do it.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
ONA pseudo-satanism in public but at the same time prefer to wrap yourself into your unbiased cloak that regards all branches in satanism as equal.


I have not called ONA pseudo Satanism. I do not think of Satanism as one but as many different satanisms. I stated that the groups never really existed, and that it was counterproductive to associate oneself with groups like the ONA, especially if one does not even agree on there teaching. I also stated that if the ONAs definition of Satanism - human sacrifice and all – was the norm, Satanism would have been banned long time ago. I do not question the ONAs right to call itself satanic. Every teen can make a group and call it satanic, but this do not force me to support the group or share its opinions. It does not even force me to take it serious, or to view my own philosophy as somewhat related. I am an Atheist, why should I take any kind of theism serious, satanic or otherwise.

As far as I know the ONA never sacrificed anyone, so I don't see why the hell I should support its right to do so, or say they do so. If the ONA at least followed there own teachings, I think I would have more respect – and as long as they only sacrifice their own members to “the dark lord”, I would not even have any complains. I always had a soft spot for suicide cults.

- Amina

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#27865 - 08/03/09 04:05 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Diavolo]
wolf Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/27/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Seriously Wolf, none can be eliminated for having specific ideas.

History would seem to indicate otherwise.

 Quote:
If you don't go public about your inclinations, people don't know shit. If they don't know shit, they can hardly eliminate you.

And if you don't attempt to change anything, nothing will change: religious nuts will do anything they can to avoid progress--scientific, materialistic, or otherwise.

 Quote:
Try being a racist in current Europe.

Rather, try NOT being one as long as you make sure you attack colored people on anything but their color; the rapidly rising fascist sentiments here in Europe are alarmingly similar to what was heard in Germany in the 1920es and 1930es. My country is currently being run by a fascist bunch so bad even Jörg Haider refused to meet with them fearing he'd be considered too right-extremist.
_________________________
A comfortable falsehood will always win out over an uncomfortable truth. (Myself)

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#27866 - 08/03/09 04:26 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Diavolo]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
If you don't go public about your inclinations, people don't know shit.


Maybe you live alone without kids, a partner and friends who visit. In this scenario I guess hiding in the closed is an option. But if you have a partner or friends who share your views, or kids born with a healthy curiosity, you will never ever be able to hide anything. You will be out of the closed and you will have to deal with it sooner or later.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Once you get past the teen stage, you know it is better to blend in than stand out.


Blend in? I don't think I would be able to just blend in Satanism or not. I don't look like a satanic teen, but I have my opinions and they get noticed - Satanism or not. I am also active in Atheism, and this gets noticed too. If claiming to be a satanist is the only thing that differentiate you from other people, then I guess you *should* just shot up. But most of the satanists I know get noticed Satanism or not. Some are gay and open about it, some are into fetishism, Goth culture or something else. It is not because of Satanism they are unable just to blend in.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
In that respect claiming to be a paedophile is as valid an argument as being a satanist.


I do not see Peter Gilmore on the way to jail. Maybe no one noticed him being a satanist because of his size?

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I don't think many Satanists in the Middle East (if there are any) are having a dark-pride.


Most of those who are accused of Satanism in muslim countries are just youths who drink alcohol, dance and listen to heavy metal music. Some of them even have t-shirts and long hair. But they do get prosecuted and some have spent time in jail or been beaten up. They DID play concerts anyway, and as far as I know they where freed from jail and allowed to do so. IMO they got what they wanted.

- Amina

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#27868 - 08/03/09 04:35 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Did I attack Lewis? I raised the question how unbiased he is when reading about some apologetic excursions. If I remember correctly you did email him about a quote. I still didn't hear about what he replied. Another question I had was about adding Nazism to the survey that which ss out of place as a steak in a vegetarian cuisine.

Of course people ended up in jail. That happens all the time. I don't wanna count the daddies that due to divorce ended up in jail and lost all rights to their kids based upon false paedophile accusations. Does this say something about paedophilia or about society? Again, no matter how many sociological studies you put on the table, people believe what they want to believe and acting as if this presented knowledge will change their attitude of save someone is false at the least. Look at how creationism affects the USA and then think of all the work of scientists out there providing all the evidence you need to accept evolution as a valid mechanism.

Again, you do consider egalitarianism as a good thing. I see religion as a private matter at best. I do not need to accept or embrace any religion because they have some right to it. I don't think you find many here accepting Muslim fundamentalism as equally valid as other religions. So why even assume society will do the same with Satanism.

I do think that the 21 pseudo-satanic points are as pseudo as it can be called no? Your remarks about ONA make me wonder in how much you do really understand what it is about. I don't mind that you are against them but the arguments about existence, sacrifice and theism appear too similar to what I read of all that browsed quickly through some synopsis.

D.

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#27869 - 08/03/09 04:43 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Diavolo]
wolf Offline
stranger


Registered: 07/27/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Again, no matter how many sociological studies you put on the table, people believe what they want to believe and acting as if this presented knowledge will change their attitude of save someone is false at the least. Look at how creationism affects the USA and then think of all the work of scientists out there providing all the evidence you need to accept evolution as a valid mechanism.

Belief systems come a dime a dozen. Unless you wish to suggest that beliefs are entirely genetically encoded, how do you suggest they evolve--and hence change--if not for communication such as the results of studies?

There's this little passage from the Satanic Bible that I particularly like where Ragnar Redbeard states that the gods were created by man, and what man has made, man can destroy. If it's proven by results to be mere fiction, let it be cast out. I find it the chief duty of every age to help let it be done.
_________________________
A comfortable falsehood will always win out over an uncomfortable truth. (Myself)

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#27870 - 08/03/09 04:56 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Honey, since when is not being open about your beliefs seen as hiding in the closet. It's almost as if I should feel forced to shout to anyone I meet in a pub; "I am a SATANIST and I do like beer, cookies and blowjobs too!”. What's it with people who prefer to share all they are about with others because oh boy, being in the closet is a bad thing. I can't think of anything else but a severe need for attention.

Of course the gay came out of the closet and negros were slaves at one point and things changed through activism but how much activism does one really need to be able to believe what one wants to believe? None at all; everyone is entitled to believe what they want. You are battling for societal acceptance and none, absolutely none but those who's emotional state depends upon that acceptance benefits from that. Messianic again, leading a flock to salvation that spits upon the very idea.

I can wear leathers with my butt cut out and the fact that it does make me being noticed has very little to do with Satanism. So what does goth, gay or fetishism have to do with it in the first place. You act as if wearing a baphomet makes anyone satanic. You can blend in and still be completely different. I live in a society where I consider most as meat anyways but it doesn't change the fact that most perceive me as a nice guy. I don't suffer from a need to be open in any aspect that does not benefit me directly.

D.

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#27871 - 08/03/09 05:07 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: wolf]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Beliefs are supermemes and they evolve because of Darwinian selection at that level and because some people are more susceptible to them than others (yes genetically). I think I posted a link somewhere here about it. Memes, as you likely know, do not care about the carrier and merely infect and spread. So man can not that easily control what escaped out of Pandora's box.

You know that bad news spreads faster and wider than good news. This can be considered as Darwinian selection where some ideas are more fit than others. As such, sociological studies can hardly compete with the more aggressive memes out there on similar subjects. One loony out there eating a baby in the name of satan outcompetes every sociological study done. If that wasn't true, one didn't need to defend it over and over again.

D.

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#27875 - 08/03/09 05:20 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Diavolo]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Did I attack Lewis? I raised the question how unbiased he is when reading about some apologetic excursions.


I was not talking about you alone, but about those who questioned his work on Satanism. Did you notice that I even included the criticism from the CoS? I don't know about the excursions, but one can find dirt on anyone - his general standing in the professional community has more to say. I asked him, but he did not even tale it serious. I guess he is too used to be part of fights between cults and anticult groups.

[/quote]Another question I had was about adding Nazism to the survey that which ss out of place as a steak in a vegetarian cuisine.[/quote]

Why is investigating stereotypes out of place? We do have groups who are sympathetic to nazism. Why is this not a legitimate topic to investigate?

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Of course people ended up in jail. That happens all the time.


The point being: People ended up in jail accused of satanic ritual abuse and human sacrifice - without any valid evidence. You said people would not be jailed without evidence. Most of the people where jailed because of bad interview techniques used on small children and bad therapy used on adults with so called "multiple personality disorder". Sociology helped a lot in investigating how this could happen. You can still find the old reports and books online.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Again, no matter how many sociological studies you put on the table, people believe what they want to believe and acting as if this presented knowledge will change their attitude of save someone is false at the least.


The flat earth society is not as big as it could have been 500 years ago. Society and public opinion is not static. They change, and they are changed by human beings, not by god or mystical forces. The Satanic Panic did disappear for a lot of reasons. Changes in society, discoveries in psychology, investigations by the FBI and others, sociological studies and so on. But the point is that the panic appeared and diapered and that human beings played a role in it.

In Denmark and Norway it have been investigated how the media reported on Satanism from the 70'ties to 1995. It showed how the medias conception of Satanism changed, and it also showed what part satanists played in this, and how the two countries differed. The US is bigger and opinions harder to change, but even the US is not static. It can be changed for the better or it can turn worse. But it is still in the hands of human beings.


 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Look at how creationism affects the USA and then think of all the work of scientists out there providing all the evidence you need to accept evolution as a valid mechanism.


You have government and you have people. I would never dream of trying to change the opinion of the people, but I am happy as long as the government does not pass insane laws or prosecute people without reason. The problem with the satanic panic was not public opinion, but the experts used in the criminal system, and the laws passed by the government. The US government have even realized that global warming and pollution is a problem, so they are not all ignoring experts.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Again, you do consider egalitarianism as a good thing.


As long as I am not able to become the supreme ruler of the earth or at least the queen of Denmark, I do want to support the idea of human rights. I do not accept any kind of theism as sane, but as long as people follow the laws of society I don't really care what they believe in. As long as I don't have the power to rule, accepting equal rights for everyone withing the laws of society sounds like a rather sane idea.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
I do think that the 21 pseudo-satanic points are as pseudo as it can be called no?


Eh, I don't care if people call them satanic or not. But I personally do not think they are very sane or rational. Show me someone who claim to live by them, and I would be very interrested in knowing how he (I am sure it will be a he) do it in his daily life.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Your remarks about ONA make me wonder in how much you do really understand what it is about. I don't mind that you are against them but the arguments about existence, sacrifice and theism appear too similar to what I read of all that browsed quickly through some synopsis.


I read a lot of there texts 10 or 15 years ago or something like that when I was new on the internet and read everything I could find on Satanism. Then a few years back I read some of the articles and books mentioning the group. Before visiting the600club I had only talked to teenagers who showed any interest in the group. I was suprised to find so many people sympathizing with the ONA on this board - but I still see no real organization. What I see is the old leader of the ONA turning to Islam and disassociating himself from the group. Maybe he had some kind of idea with the ONA, but IMO the ONA was only a way of attracting people to neonazism.

Anyway, I don't believe in magic, occultism, gods or social darwinism as legitimate science - so I can hardly claim to *understand* anything involving those beliefs.

- Amina

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#27876 - 08/03/09 05:27 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Diavolo]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Beliefs are supermemes and they evolve because of Darwinian selection at that level and because some people are more susceptible to them than others (yes genetically)


I remember memes being mentioned when I was studying psychology at university. If we had used memes to explain social psychology, we would not have passed the exam. It is a very controversial theory, not a replacement of all other theories in communication, cultural studies, media sciance and so on. When one theory tries to explain everything from small pox to the music of Mozart on should be very suspicious.

- Amina

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#27877 - 08/03/09 05:37 PM Re: The Satan Survey - Participate! [Re: Amina]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
Your assumption of why Lewis laughed the criticism away hardly makes a convincing answer. Again, I am not bothered if or if not someone paid his lunch but to claim some sort of academic unbiasedness needs more evidence than a reputation in his community. After all, the world is filled with people having a status in their community which doesn't live up to the requirements of others.

Why is adding Nazism out of order? I surely don't need to explain that to you who (and I think this is a correct assumption) is looking for a correlation between specific satanists and Nazism as a 'told you so' argument. Cui bono?
Btw, didn't you profile me after I said I consider Social Darwinism as a reality. It still makes me chuckle.

If the experts were the problem in the satanic panic, why would they now suddenly be the saviors? Did they see the light somewhere?

So you read about ONA 10 or 15 years ago and still consider yourself a resource upon the subject? Good you aren't into medicine, you'd still be draining blood to cure diseases. It at least explains a lot.

D.

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