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#28045 - 08/07/09 05:38 AM Re: Why a Texas woman mutilated and ate her baby [Re: Morgan]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
"If culling was my first chose of action to defend my kids, I would be culling other more obvious sources of danger like drug dealers, those who sell and produce unhealthy food and cigarettes etc."

So you think its fine to cull people who produce various foods and cigarettes that you don't like?


Eh, one moment I am accused of being a weak person who wish for world peace and singing birds in every tree, and the next moment I am accused of wanting to cull people (or rather "the wrong people" I guess)? I do not have anything to add to my original statement because I think it is quite clear as it is.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
No, it is just you.
Modern psychology does not share your views.
Modern medicine does not share your views.
Modern law does not share your views.
Satanism certainly does not share your views.


Thank you ya all knowing spokesperson for all Satanism, medicine, psychology and law. Your opinion really mean so much to me.


- Amina

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#28047 - 08/07/09 05:51 AM Re: Why a Texas woman mutilated and ate her baby [Re: Amina]
ceruleansteel Offline
active member


Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
First off, whatever Denmark to America dictionary you are using needs to be scrapped. "Reculation" is not a word and I can only speculate on what you meant by that.

 Quote:
When society has used 18 years to educate and feed a person, killing the person is not the most economical solution, unless the person is not able to contribute to society in any what what so ever.


Save a buck, and save all the hassle that lies in attempting to regulate whether or not the crazies continue to take the meds. Human life is no more sacred - overall - than any other life. I guess in Denmark they hand out the food to you instead of making your family work to earn the money to buy it? And even education is not free. Try again.

And since when is society in general so damn noble and worthy and important? Cog in the wheel, Amina? When you type, all I read is "MOO". Hey, I think your government's nuts are getting dry...time to get back to work...

 Quote:
Why? In some cases yes, but in other cases drugs can be used. This in IMO not really different then people who have to eat hart medication for years. Brains are part of the body, not some special container for the soul.


How can someone who claims to have a degree in anything be so purposefully ignorant? Who talked of souls? I guess some other part of your body controls your decisions and impulses? A person with a heart condition is not as likely to snap and shoot the demons out of their neighbor's grandma than someone who is FUCKING CRAZY.

Let me guess...Denmark has no guns either? How do you people reproduce when there is apparently no penis available?


 Quote:
If she suffered from postpartum psychosis as sugested, her psychosis will not be a chronic condition.


Bullshit. It has been proven that postpartum of that degree is at least as bad and if not worse with each successive birth. But you knew that already, right? Because you have a degree in psychology...you were just testing me, weren't you? But I'm not even stopping at postpartum females. I'm talking about the lot of them. Every crazy bastard or bastette who has ever crossed that line into rabidness.

 Quote:
Also, one would not expect her to go on any kind of killing spree. Those who suffers from postpartum psychosis are a danger to themselves and there kinds, but not to the general public. Depressive people also commits murder, but that usually only kill themselves or if they kill others they usually kill there own family - so they are much less of a danger to the general public then those who commit murder on purpose.


Oh, I see...we should let them live because - statistically - they are only a danger to their own kind? And what was your reasons to defend the crazies who killed because they hear voices? Denmark doesn't have a death penalty? That just proves that Denmark is full of pussies who aren't willing to grow enough balls to solve their problems in a way that makes it stick. I assure you, it costs more to lock a dangerous killer up for the rest of their life than it does to give them a shot or even zap their asses a good one. 500 dollar electric bill or 38 thousand dollars a year?...hrmm...damn, give me a minute here...

 Quote:
If culling was my first chose of action to defend my kids, I would be culling other more obvious sources of danger like drug dealers, those who sell and produce unhealthy food and cigarettes etc.


Yeah, because it doesn't make a damn bit of sense at all to teach your kids to avoid drug dealers and cigarettes...what the hell kind of weak-assed argument are you presenting? Are you even trying? That's like saying a steak knife is more danger to your kid than the rabid dog it sits beside.

The only thing you are doing here is making yourself look more like an idiot. Either you cannot understand English or you are too stupid to make a valid argument. First you are pulling in what-ifs that don't exist, don't matter, and have no bearing whatsoever on the debate (what if someone forced them to take drugs...COME ON!), and now you try to make things that are dangerous DECISIONS look like more of a threat than a raging psycho with a weapon. You're going to the bank with monopoly money.

 Quote:
They also culled mantally ill people and sterilized criminals and women who had too sex outside marriage, because they believed criminality and lack of morals to be hereditary.


A friend of mine gave birth to a daughter who had cerebral palsy. She had her sterilized. It's not inhumane to nip that shit in the bud. It's responsible.

You may have majored in psychology (though I am finding that extremely difficult to swallow) but you obviously have not delved too deeply into sociology. It's perfectly safe to assume that there is a degree of heredity involved in morality and criminality. If it were any other way, then you would see more children from "good families" turning out like the ones from families full of felons and junkies and whatnot. What fool honestly believes that a crack whore will be able to raise a child? What idiot thinks that the rights of a five-time felon should outweigh the need of the masses to sleep soundly at night?

Guess what: I'm a fan of The Cull and I have no problem with sterilization either. If my kids were fubar'd, I'd sterilize them in a second. Responsibility means weighing the pros and cons of everything, and just because a decision doesn't make everyone happy doesn't mean it's the wrong one. Sorry to knock the flowers out of your hair...

 Quote:
On this issue I think I am most biased because of my education in the field of psychology.


I think you are most biased because your brain has been rotted with pinko and socialist values that are a crock of shit. Germany is a land full of robust citizens with good mental and physical health overall. The complete fuckin' nerve of those people!


 Quote:
I don't view mental illness a so different from somatic illness -


I have yet to meet someone who murdered another person because they had a particularly bad cold.

 Quote:
but that is just me and psychology at large sharing this opinion.


There's, what? Ten people in Denmark? If your reference list of so-called academia Satana is anything to judge by I wouldn't trust your psychology references either.

Please don't breed.

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#28048 - 08/07/09 05:57 AM Re: Why a Texas woman mutilated and ate her baby [Re: Amina]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
To return to the topic at hand. I am not a big fan of wikipeadia, but after viewing what it has to tell about Postpartum psychosis and schizophrenia I would want to recomend reating it (or even better - find a book on the topic if you are so inclined). Af few points from a copy paste to give a general idea:

 Quote:
The majority of cases occur within the first 2–4 weeks after childbirth with a classic 10–14 day meltdown, likely caused by the radical hormonal changes combined with neurotransmitter overactivity. When correctly diagnosed at the earliest signs and immediately treated with anti-psychotic medication, the illness is recoverable within a few weeks. If undiagnosed, even for just a few days, it can take the woman months to recover. In cases of postpartum psychosis, the sufferer is often unaware that she is unwell
]

Symptoms of postpartum psychosis can include:
 Quote:
* Feelings of being ordered by God or a power outside of oneself to do things one would not normally do, like harming oneself or the baby
* Feelings of intense confusion or agitation.
* Seeing or hearing things that others don't


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postpartum_psychosis

- Amina

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#28051 - 08/07/09 06:21 AM Re: Why a Texas woman mutilated and ate her baby [Re: Amina]
ceruleansteel Offline
active member


Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 784
Loc: Behind you
I so totally do not give a shit.

I am sick and tired of everyone getting their get-out-of-jail-free tickets.

You can't punish me, I'm PMS'ing. You can't punish me, I'm postpartum. You can't punish me, daddy didn't hug me when I was a kid.

Don't give a damn. How come China doesn't have these types of problems? Because they don't fuckin' stand for it, that's why. Would you be happier if we just caned the hell out of everyone who fucks up? Oh, wait, no...because that would make them sad, wouldn't it?

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#28052 - 08/07/09 07:10 AM Re: Why a Texas woman mutilated and ate her baby [Re: ceruleansteel]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel
Human life is no more sacred - overall - than any other life.


No, but if you want to view it from the point of society, economy is a big issue.

 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel
I guess in Denmark they hand out the food to you instead of making your family work to earn the money to buy it? And even education is not free. Try again.


You have public education in public schools, right? In Denmark almost all education is free of charge, also at university level. The fact is that a child is an investment at best - if the child does not turn in to a taxpaying adult and pay tax several years, its parents and the government has investment money without getting its economical investment back.

 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel
Hey, I think your government's nuts are getting dry...time to get back to work...


We have less crime, less religious nuts etc. We also have less poor people and healtcare and free education for all - I guess you view this as insane, but at least *our* streets are not flodded with uneducated, unemployed, poor religious nuts with bad teeth and guns in hand.

 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel
How can someone who claims to have a degree in anything be so purposefully ignorant? Who talked of souls? I guess some other part of your body controls your decisions and impulses? A person with a heart condition is not as likely to snap and shoot the demons out of their neighbor's grandma than someone who is FUCKING CRAZY.


Most insane people do not kill anyone. The correlation between drug use or drinking and murder is much higher then the correlation between insanity and murder. As I said, if culling was my first choice of action to defend my kids, I would go for the drug dealers - and/or those we sell alcohol, now we are at it.

 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel
Let me guess...Denmark has no guns either? How do you people reproduce when there is apparently no penis available?


You are right, we have more restrictions on owning guns. We DO have gangs shooting each other on the streets once in a while, but we have a much lover crime rate then the US, and someone getting shot is a national news story. Even if people do get shot in fights between gangs most survive anyway - I guess they are really bad at aiming or use too small calibers.

 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel
Oh, I see...we should let them live because - statistically - they are only a danger to their own kind?


No, I would let them live for several reasons:

1) We don't have the death penalty in Denmark, and when one considers how the system works in the US and/or less civilized countries (communist, Islamic and others) I would not support its introduction to Denmark or any other countries. I know that the average satanist supports the death penalty, but I think this is more or less because the average satanist is from the US and share the opinion on death penalty with Americans in general.

2) When the case goes to trial the women will probably be cured from her psychosis, and by then probably be horrified about her own actions. If someone wanted to make her suffer, they would not kill her but make her understand what she did. Killing her would not make her suffer - it would only make her disappear. In the same line of though,

3) If she did it on purpose, then she should be send to jail for life. But if she suffered from a psychosis, I don't think she was responsible for her own action. I believe strongly in responsibility, but only if the person is responsible for what he or she did. If a baby hits me in the head or pokes my eye because he does not understand what he is doing, I do not hit him back or strangle him.

4) I don't believe she will kill again, but if there is any danger I would want her to remain i an institution. This is also how the law works in Denmark. If your kill someone on purpose you can only get 16 years in jail. If you did so because of insanity, you get to stay in an institution as long as your are a danger - even if you have to stay for your whole life.

 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel
Denmark doesn't have a death penalty? That just proves that Denmark is full of pussies who aren't willing to grow enough balls to solve their problems in a way that makes it stick.


Listen, I know some people think culling and/or using death penalty is the only moral thing to do. A lot of Christians who turn to the chapter about "an eye for an eye" also believe this.

But if your focus in NOT on morals, but on solving problems, then calling for death penalties should be viewed as any other tool to make society work. In Denmark we do not have the death penalty, and we have less crime. I know you have a different opinion, but all the studies I have seen on death penalty and harder punishments has not convinced me that it works. Yes, that specific person is off the street, but it does not reduce crime in society.


 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel
Yeah, because it doesn't make a damn bit of sense at all to teach your kids to avoid drug dealers and cigarettes...what the hell kind of weak-assed argument are you presenting?


You said you wanted a specif women to die as a way to protect your own kids. My point is, that local drug dealers and fast food pushers is a more obvious danger. So if your focus is danger, other points of focus would be more realistic. But no, I am not sure what point of focus you have - personal danger, morality, wht's best for society or something else. As fare as I can see you are all over the place.

 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel
First you are pulling in what-ifs that don't exist, don't matter, and have no bearing whatsoever on the debate (what if someone forced them to take drugs...COME ON!)


Okay, then explain to me what the difference is between acting in a criminal way because of mind altering drugs forced on you, and because of chemistry in your brain outside your own control? I can understand why you would worry if it happened again when the issue is brain chemistry, but why is there a difference in guilt? Chemistry is chemistry IMO.

 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel
It's perfectly safe to assume that there is a degree of heredity involved in morality and criminality. If it were any other way, then you would see more children from "good families" turning out like the ones from families full of felons and junkies and whatnot.


Eh, unless one also look at upbringing. One usually speak of nature and nurture, genes and upbringing. Thinking kids from bad families turn out bad because of genes alone would be a rather one eyed explanation. In some cases genes have something to say, but in the studies I have seen, the conclusion was that genes only matter if the person also have an upbringing in a bad family or neighborhood. A child from a bad family who gets adopted by a good family do not get criminal just because of genes. Even people born with ADHD need more then bad genes to turn out bad.

 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel
Responsibility means weighing the pros and cons of everything, and just because a decision doesn't make everyone happy doesn't mean it's the wrong one. Sorry to knock the flowers out of your hair...


One of my big cons is this: Do I trust those in power right now? Do I share the opinions of those who lead the government? Maybe you do this in your Christian society, but I do not even do that in my secularized one. As long as I don't trust those in power, I don't want to give them even more power. As it is, I am rather sure that you would need a new government in the US before you asked for a governmental supported system of culling, unless you and other non-christian individuals who have alternative beliefs and/or an alternative lifestyle should not fear being the first in line. IMO, If you ask for culling, be damn sure you are not the first in ĺine unless you a suicidal!

And yes, I agree that one can support something even if it is an Utopian dream like satanists rising to power and becoming the ones who decide who to cull, but I try to stay in the real world and focus on problems and possibilities at hand. Culling will not be a realistic possibility anytime soon.


 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel
There's, what? Ten people in Denmark? If your reference list of so-called academia Satana is anything to judge by I wouldn't trust your psychology references either.


Okay, if you don't share the opinion that somatic and mental problems are closely related, and that mental conditions can we explained and cured in the same ways as somatic ones, then please explain how a problem in the brain chemistry differs from a problem in any other part of the body? Yes, in the old days Freud used to listen to people talk, but today talk is not the only or the best cure at hand. The mind and the brain is not something special - its part of the body.

- Amina

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#28053 - 08/07/09 07:16 AM Re: Why a Texas woman mutilated and ate her baby [Re: ceruleansteel]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: ceruleansteel
I am sick and tired of everyone getting their get-out-of-jail-free tickets.


But are they? As far s I can see, the US even bring children to trail as adults. I also dislike bad excuses and injustice. I think the only difference is that I do not believe so strongly in free will as you do, and that I believe that people are able to commit actions in specific situations without being fully responsible for there own actions. Thats it.

- Amina

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#28054 - 08/07/09 07:26 AM Re: Why a Texas woman mutilated and ate her baby [Re: Amina]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
What you fail to understand is that even when it is possible to numb people into normalcy by using drugs, it is only an artificial state and when taking the drugs away, or when the treatment fails, we are stuck with loonies again. I know, it is popular to state that everyone has a right to live and that all have a right to happiness but while that might be a popular tune in the leftist environment, not all here agree with that.

I am personally rather tired off all excuses to make certain behavior excusable. It doesn't matter why someone did something, what matters is that they did something. If it comes to escaping the punishment, all have had a bad childhood, were temporary or totally insane or were being forced by whatever circumstances. I wonder how long it will take before the first defense case is build upon free will being an illusion or a genetic predisposition to certain behavior and in that deny all responsibility. I am pro "one crime, one sentence". You are found guilty, you suffer the punishment. Too bad if daddy beat you with a stick but the world is filled with people having had an identical youth who are doing pretty well. So some are the weakest link and off they go. The current tendency to even give the weakest link worth is disgusting at the least.

Nazis sure sterilized people but it was happening all over the world in those days. At some levels society does not differ too much from farming and one has to realize that certain animals better not breed. So yes, a lot of people got sterilized and that is still happening. None benefits of loonies having kids. You either get kids with the same failures or are stuck with the problem that the parents are incapable of raising them, and society (read the tax payer) has to take the responsibility. The moment I will have to pay because you are incapable of raising your kids, I feel I am entitled to ask for you to be sterilized. After all, if the ones responsible can't take up their responsibility, others should not feel morally inclined to do so, or forced for that matter. Yes I do know socialism still promotes the Christian tune that all life is special and that we are equally worthy but that is an enforced illusion. At best we are tribal and the further we go from our tribe, the less value everyone has.

Now for another thing. For someone that jibes so well with the social idea, your ability to interact socially seems to be funky at least. I don't know what your problem is but when seeing the reactions of others; you sure seem to not know how to behave socially. At the very least, I expect Satanists to be able to adapt to their environment. Maybe you're here with an agenda to lead Satanists to the light but I fear you’ll be going the same route as all other saviors then. Maybe you really think you are something and our lack of reverence must feel awkward. Let me assure you that you are nothing here and if you want to be respected, you at least have to do something (here) to deserve that. Claims are just that; claims. We are not impressed.

Still, you might genuinely wonder why some of us are so hostile. This is not your lair and when joining here, it would have been wise if you at least would have bothered to read what we are about instead of just demanding that we adapt to you. We don't, you are the immigrant in our culture and your culture doesn't interest us at the least, unless you are socially skilled enough to be able to talk about it without sounding like Mother Theresa.
Whatever is the case; the problem is you. You either work at it or perish. There really are no other options. Social Darwinism is functioning here too.

Responsibility to the responsible.

D.

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#28055 - 08/07/09 07:33 AM Re: Why a Texas woman mutilated and ate her baby [Re: Amina]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3151
 Quote:
We have less crime, less religious nuts etc. We also have less poor people and healtcare and free education for all - I guess you view this as insane, but at least *our* streets are not flodded with uneducated, unemployed, poor religious nuts with bad teeth and guns in hand.

Less crime and less religious nuts?
I'll be happy to come over and take you to some "suburbs" in Denmark and leave you behind. Less crime by what standards? I can also claim there is "less crime" here in Belgium but there are still places I wouldn't even DARE to set a foot. Just as in Denmark as in the rest of the world.
Or were your statements made by a survey? (Just poking a bit..)

 Quote:
I know that the average satanist supports the death penalty, but I think this is more or less because the average satanist is from the US and share the opinion on death penalty with Americans in general.
Never generalize statements or ideas, it's just asking for troubles. I'm from Belgium and would also love to see the death penalty introduced with some limitations... It's just an easy and swift way to wipe out the weaklings and unproductive leeches out of society.
Also, you can't really compare the US with Denmark. Denmark never really was a economical heavyweight as the US was/is. Economics have their influence on crime rates, it attracts "poor" people for the good climate and wealth which can be found there. And Denmark.. well.. it's just a nice country I'd happily visit for the nice views. Always felt attracted to more nordic countries for vacation.

 Quote:
But if she suffered from a psychosis, I don't think she was responsible for her own action.

Majorly league BULLSHIT. Psychosis or not, she committed the deed and therfor must face the consequences of her actions. Simple as that. That hard to get?

 Quote:
Okay, then explain to me what the difference is between acting in a criminal way because of mind altering drugs forced on you, and because of chemistry in your brain outside your own control?

the chemistry in the brain in a natural way is caused by a disbalans or malfunctioning in one of the "organs". Drugs forced is mostly forcing hormones which are fabricated synthetically into the body. Difference is, that the natural chemistry in the brain it's quantities will always be LESS then the ones you can take in by force or out of free will.
Neverless, forced or not, once addicted to drugs or a malfunctioning of chemistry in the brain you are deemed WORTHLESS and should be culled immediatly.

 Quote:
But are they? As far s I can see, the US even bring children to trail as adults. I also dislike bad excuses and injustice. I think the only difference is that I do not believe so strongly in free will as you do, and that I believe that people are able to commit actions in specific situations without being fully responsible for there own actions. Thats it.

Two remarks:
1) As children think they are "grown-ups" and want to act like them, let them have it, neverless if they commit crimes just as an adult would do I see no reason for bringing them to a special court for children only... If you want to act as an adult, bear the consequences of an adult.
2) You don't believe as much as Cs in free will? Is this actually a statement that you prefer to be told what to do and not to speak your mind?.. Come on tell me you are kidding.


Edited by Dimitri (08/07/09 07:48 AM)
_________________________
Ut vivat, crescat et floreat

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#28057 - 08/07/09 08:41 AM Re: Why a Texas woman mutilated and ate her baby [Re: Diavolo]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
What you fail to understand is that even when it is possible to numb people into normalcy by using drugs, it is only an artificial state and when taking the drugs away, or when the treatment fails, we are stuck with loonies again.


Using drugs on the mentally ill is not more unnatural or artificial then using drugs on the somatic ill.

My opinion on the other issues you address is already covered in what I answered earlier, especially my concern about not giving more power to the government or others, unless you are sure they are able to wield it in a that will not backfire on you.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
The moment I will have to pay because you are incapable of raising your kids, I feel I am entitled to ask for you to be sterilized.


I can see your point, but if we look at how it is in many countries in Europe, we have to choose between having more kids or invite more immigrants. Our populations are getting old, and we do not have enough hands to take over when the older generation retire. Asking only the most fit people to have more kids is not even a realistic option. I support sterilizing some groups, but if this only left the sane, educated, rich and mentally healthy people (or how ever you define quality) they would have to give birth to more kids. I don't know how many of you supermen would be willing to take part in this, but I think you will have a hard time finding females who want to breed and raise babies just to make society work. They try to do this in some countries by supporting them economically, but it does not really work. But hey, maybe you would rather just invite more immigrants?


 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
At the very least, I expect Satanists to be able to adapt to their environment.


Sorry, but my book on name calling and silliness was lost in the mail. I guess I need to order a new one.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Maybe you're here with an agenda to lead Satanists to the light


Getting a bit out of topic, are we? Again, as with the last person who wanted to share an opinion about my person, and believed she was speaking for all, I am very greatfull to be so enlightened, and I care very much about your opinion. I also appreciate how you and your friend take the time to visit this topic just to set me straight. You make me feel really special.

- Amina

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#28058 - 08/07/09 09:03 AM Re: Why a Texas woman mutilated and ate her baby [Re: Dimitri]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
I'll be happy to come over and take you to some "suburbs" in Denmark and leave you behind.


If we ignore the part about your offer being in the line of some kind of silly threatening statement, what IS your point? If you believe the US has less crime then Denmark, be my guest. But if you come up with some statistic to prove it, you would really surprise me. But hey - go google baby!

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Psychosis or not, she committed the deed and therfor must face the consequences of her actions. Simple as that. That hard to get?


Yes, it IS "hard to get". Issues like this is about morality, political views and arguments based on more or less relevant data. There is not an objectively right answer, only subjective ones - unless you think God or other sources of objective morality is involved.

 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
Neverless, forced or not, once addicted to drugs or a malfunctioning of chemistry in the brain you are deemed WORTHLESS and should be culled immediatly.


Everybody have some sort of malfunctioning or irregularity. If we only include those who get diagnosed with a mental problem that would be 1/6 of the population or so. Wow, and I worried abut the birthrate dropping!


 Originally Posted By: Dimitri
You don't believe as much as Cs in free will?


If we believe genes and upbringing makes a difference (or memes now we are at it), the belief in a totally free will has to suffer the consequence. Beliving everyone else are slaves of those things, and that you a unique and above all this is an illusion at best. Man is just another animal.


- Amina


Edited by Amina (08/07/09 09:19 AM)
Edit Reason: link added

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#28059 - 08/07/09 09:22 AM Re: Why a Texas woman mutilated and ate her baby [Re: Amina]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Amina
[If you believe the US has less crime then Denmark, be my guest. But if you come up with some statistic to prove it, you would really surprise me. But hey - go google baby!



Total crime victims:

Denmark 23%
USA 21.1%

Nationmaster

Now we will argue the value of statistics I guess.

 Quote:
Denmark: A Case Study in Social Democracy

Mises Daily by Per Henrik Hansen | Posted on 7/22/2003 12:00:00 AM

In a previous article—"Denmark: Potemkin Village"—I documented the downside to Denmark. Despite its reputation as a showcase of political utopia, 40 percent of its adult population live on government transfer income, full-time, all-year. A little more than a third of these people are pensioners and the rest are working age. About one third of the people who actually hold a job work for the government or government-owned companies. The effective tax level is around 70 percent, not the 50 percent that is usually reported (the lower figure comes about by disregarding the effects of the sales tax and excise taxes).

My article led to many questions and comments from readers. One reader admitted that the Danish welfare state is very expensive but claimed that it is worth the price. If high taxes buy a society where people feel secure, where crime levels are low, and where people are well educated and live long and healthy lives, maybe the high taxes aren't such a terrible thing!

For now, let's ignore the ethical question associated with all coercive redistribution. Instead, let's look at the extent to which safety, security, and quality of life really do characterize Denmark.

People can feel socially secure in Denmark—at least for now. People don't get rich from welfare but they can live a comfortable life. Practically all people are eligible for one program or another. But the system is unsustainable in the longer run. In the early 1970s only about 300,000 people of working age lived full-time all year on government welfare. Today it is about 900,000. The population size has remained unchanged at around 5 million. In the not too distant future, more people are going to be pensioners and fewer people will be working age. At some point, the trough will be empty.

The welfare state has also nationalized many of the formerly family support functions. In 1960, 91 percent of all women 30 years of age were married. Today, fewer than 50 percent are. Partly this is because people are marrying later in life, and yet a considerable part of the explanation is that many people do not marry at all.

Of the people who do get married, more people get a divorce today. In 1975, 18 per cent of all the marriages from 1950 had ended in a divorce during the preceding 25 years. In 1995, 36 per cent of the marriages from 1970 had ended in a divorce. Of marriages in 1985, 20 per cent ended in a divorce after only 7 years. As a result of the above, many more people live in single households today than did in 1960. In 2000, one third of all adults in Denmark were living alone.

If we next look at the crime level, the Danish Statistical Yearbook 2002 shows reported crimes from 1935 to 1960 to be stable: about 100,000 crimes per year. But from 1960 until today, the number of crime reports has increased by 500 percent, to more than 500,000 per year. And if we look at violent crime, the picture is even grimmer. The number of violent crimes in 1960 was approximately 2,000; it is approximately 15,000 today. This is an increase of more than 700 percent, and it is still rising steeply.

This is a very surprising development. Welfare state advocates often say that crime is caused by poverty. Well, Denmark has become about twice as rich per citizen during this period of rising crime. Another argument is that poverty is caused by economic inequality. Well, Denmark has engaged in the most comprehensive income redistribution program of any nation. Denmark is the most egalitarian country in the world today.

So, a rising crime level is the last thing the welfare statists might have predicted using their own theory. Maybe there is some other independent factor causing the development? Denmark has taken in a great number of immigrants and refugees from third-world countries. These immigrants unfortunately are greatly overrepresented in the crime statistics—something like 5 to 1—but they only account for less than 10 percent of the population, and hence cannot account for the entire increase in crime.

There are better explanations. Massive redistribution schemes have undercut people's respect for property rights. The rhetoric against wealth producers that has accompanied the redistribution has created social antagonisms. People on government transfer income have a lot of extra time on their hands, and their hands do the "devil's work."

The best explanation may be the change in the views of intellectuals. In the 1960s, the theory emerged that crime should not be blamed on the offender but on society. This led to the conclusion that crime should not be punished—at least not very harshly—but instead socially treated.

This idea is still so widespread that the present Minister of Justice, who is a conservative, proposed that prisoners be released when they have served only half their sentence. This, she said, would solve the problem of long waiting lists for the Danish prisons. But it might also make the lists even longer!

Let's now look at education. Many people believe that if education were not provided by the government, only rich people could afford it. Let us compare Denmark to the U.S., where public funding of especially higher education is not nearly as readily available as it is in Denmark. According to the report "Education at a Glance" from the OECD, 15 percent of people between the ages of 25 and 64 has a bachelor degree or more in Denmark. In the U.S.A., it is 26 percent—nearly twice as many. In Sweden, the number is 13 percent, and Norway 16 percent.

If we look at the other end of the education level, those with only 9 years of education, in Denmark it is 34 percent, whereas in the U.S. it is 14 percent. In Sweden the number is 26 percent and in Norway 18 percent. Again the numbers are much more favorable in the U.S.

The U.S. has, according to this report, the best educated population in the world measured by numbers of years of schooling. No country has as many highly educated people as the USA and no country has as few people with only 9 years of education. This is information, I know, is surprising to most Europeans (conceding of course that this is a quantitative and not a qualitative measure).

In Denmark, many people are prevented from gaining the education they would like. All higher education is publicly run and free. Central planners decide how many doctors, architects, engineers, lawyers, economists, etc., that society needs. Students are rationed according to their grades in high school. If your grades are not high enough, you may not begin a degree program of your preference.

There are no objective tests of the quality levels in Denmark that I know of. However, one indication of the falling quality level in education could be the considerable shift in applicants for higher education away from the sciences and into the humanities. Everything involving mathematics, or other clearly demonstrable skills such as natural science or economics, is disliked by the applicants.

What about health? Denmark is one of the few OECD countries where the average life span has hardly increased since the early 1970s. In the early 1970s, Denmark was at the top in OECD comparisons; today it is closer to the bottom.

According to the politicians, this has nothing to do with poor quality at the Danish hospitals or long waiting lists for examination and surgery. They say it is due to the Danish people's habit of smoking and drinking. And yet, often one can read in the news stories of people who die preventable deaths simply because they were on a waiting list and unable to get care.

Sound economic theory can explain the shortages and continuously falling quality in government-provided health care and education. When suppliers are not driven by the profit motive, nor subjected to market competition, they cease being customer oriented. Quality declines and costs rise. Due to the lack of market prices, and therefore no economic calculation, they can neither plan efficiently nor satisfy consumer demand. They do not have the information or the incentives to make rational decisions. This was the case in the formerly centrally planned economies. It is also the case in Denmark, where central planning also prevails in parts of the economy, most significantly in health care and education.

In conclusion, we can say that neither on crime, education nor health do we see the favorable results we would have expected. Quite to the contrary. The prospects for being able to rely on government or family for social security are also rapidly diminishing. These are not very bright prospects indeed for a country where each working citizen are forced to sacrifice such a large share of his personal earnings to the common good.

One option for young people is to leave. It was recently proposed by one of the three economists from the Danish Economic Council that if young people in Denmark wish to move abroad after they have completed their education, they should first have to pay back the costs of their education. Only when they have paid enough taxes to cover all the expenses of their education, would they be able to move abroad without having to pay the government first.

Thus do we have proposed the social-democratic version of the Berlin Wall, an economic barrier to prevent emigration so that the state can continue to tax people to sustain a system that is unraveling. The mere suggestion is a telling sign that Denmark has nearly reached the end of the road.

Denmark: A Case Study in Social Democracy


D.


Edited by Diavolo (08/07/09 09:26 AM)

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#28062 - 08/07/09 09:57 AM Re: Why a Texas woman mutilated and ate her baby [Re: Diavolo]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Total crime victims:

Denmark 23%
USA 21.1%


Eh? So we are talking victims now, not crime? No, we are not, my statement was about crime.

Try the statistic on crime on the same page: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes

Or on murders: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur-crime-murders

Or on rape: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap-crime-rapes

or on robberies: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rob-crime-robberies

Etc.

Yes, bikes are stolen in huge numbers in Denmark, and we are very good at calling the police, but I don't see how you read the statistic in a way that make the US look like it has less crime.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Denmark: A Case Study in Social Democracy


And that would be spamming the forum - unless you have some sort of special deal with the mods (trying to fit in I am, telling people about the rules and all).

Before I waste any time on it, could you please explain the source? I know Denmark is small, but I am afraid I don't know who Per Henrik Hansen is?

- Amina


Edited by Amina (08/07/09 09:59 AM)

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#28064 - 08/07/09 10:18 AM Re: Why a Texas woman mutilated and ate her baby [Re: Amina]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
You made me laugh. Gosh the USA has more crime numbers than Denmark. Does population size ring a bell?

Per capita; what the fuck would that mean?

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita

Maybe if you read the article and check whom the author is, you would get the information. So, it seems the welfare bubble you are promoting isn't seen as that divine by all. Care to show why he is wrong and why your domesticated approach is so much better?

Lemme guess; the nanny state pays you too?

D.

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#28067 - 08/07/09 11:17 AM Re: Why a Texas woman mutilated and ate her baby [Re: Diavolo]
Amina Offline
member


Registered: 03/08/08
Posts: 177
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Per capita; what the fuck would that mean?


Sorry, I was a bit fast with the links, I will give you that. But if you try looking at the same stats pr. capita you will find that the US is has a higher crime rate, at lest on serious crimes like rape, murder and robberies.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rob_percap-crime-robberies-per-capita

Yes, we have a problem with bikes being stolen, and we are very good at calling the police if something happens - at least that is the standard explanation given by police when faced with statistics. This aside, I will be willing to change my statement from "crimes" to "serious crimes" based on this data, if this makes you happy?

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Maybe if you read the article and check whom the author is, you would get the information.


Checking his name I see he is an expert on the history of banking and the history of danish furniture (yes, chairs and tables). I would be more impressed if it had been within his field of expertise, or if I knew what forum the article was published in. I think it sounds more like something he would present at a political right wing meeting then as something he would publish in a peer reviewed magazine on social history. But maybe I am wrong.

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
Lemme guess; the nanny state pays you too?


The danish state pays all students to study. But yes, I work too - like almost all other students.

- Amina


Edited by Amina (08/07/09 11:23 AM)

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#28068 - 08/07/09 11:32 AM Re: Why a Texas woman mutilated and ate her baby [Re: Amina]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
One weird thing in the poll is that although the USA has more rape, the Danish have more rape victims, it makes me wonder if they didn't get what the intention of gangrape was. ;\)

The article is all over the web. They invented google because we didn't evolve into psychic beings. Seek and you shall find.

It doesn't matter really what the author does; he gives a view upon the Danish welfare state, which you seem to promote, and if he is so wrong, I don't doubt you will be able to provide evidence why. At this moment it only seems you are dodging the criticism. Feel free to slap me around the ears with data on why I should turn into a social creature and become a supporter of nanny-statism. I am awaiting your post that'll turn me into a true believer. Until then, we can quit debating the subject here.

Oh and to bring the thread back on track; did it taste like chicken?

D.

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