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#38266 - 05/03/10 11:57 PM whirl peas, my peas, your peas, his peas, herpes [Re: Severed Soul]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2232
Loc: Oregon
 Quote:
I feel that world peace could possibly be achievable if all money systems/ statuses of wealth are gone. Will that happen probably not, i will admit that i am slightly greedy and do sometimes envy when a friend gets something better than me.


You're forgetting that people have been killing each other since long before any monetary systems were created.
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#38278 - 05/04/10 11:27 AM Re: World peace: a nice thought, or a possibility? [Re: zippadydooda]
Fnord Online
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Registered: 01/11/10
Posts: 718
Loc: Texas
I'll echo the general consensus here that 'world peace' is unattainable.

To go a step further, I would say that war is a natural state in the animal kingdom (inclusive of humans). One of my favorite illustrations of this point is William Golding's Lord of the Flies. Yes, it's a rather simplistic tome, but how complicated does the concept really need to be? The overwhelming evidence is available to see daily in each individual's life.

Once that basic premise is accepted, it's fairly simple to see that while war is chock full of heartache and sorrow it also brings about change. Imagine living in someone else's utopia with no remedy or means of escape. Under those conditions the human race would stagnate and falter.

This is why individualism must be kept at the forefront of thought.

"World Peace", I believe, would ultimately lead to the decline of the species which is why we seem to be hard wired against it.
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#38294 - 05/04/10 09:45 PM Re: whirl peas, my peas, your peas, his peas, herpes [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Lucifer Rising Online
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Registered: 04/10/10
Posts: 147
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Whether or not world peace is possible really depends on what definition you give for "world peace."

If world peace is the end of nations warring against one another on this planet, then I do think it is possible, though it will probably be at least a few more generations before we can see it. Unless something really major happens, the world should become more connected and nations more dependent on one another. Cooperation should become so beneficial for nation that eventually there should be no gain to be had from nations warring against one another, or at least less gain than could be achieved otherwise. It will become illogical to fight on such scales. I think we're actually on the right path to create that kind of world peace, though it is going to be a long time before it happens.

If your vision of world peace is some hippy fantasy land where everyone loves everyone, not only is that never going to happen, I wouldn't want it to. People are always going to be divided, even when such divisions are not based on nationality or geography. As long as people are unequal, as they always will be, there will never be a complete and total peace. I'm glad for that, for without such struggles there would be nothing separating the strong from the weak. This sort of world peace could very well change our evolution to make us a weaker species and I do not wish for it.
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Even if you're the ultimate evil lord of the underworld, you should always be yourself. Mickey Mouse

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#38365 - 05/07/10 12:27 PM Re: whirl peas, my peas, your peas, his peas, herpes [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Doomsage680 Offline
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Registered: 10/01/09
Posts: 109
Loc: NJ, USA
Now that many here have preached the truth of an unachievable world peace, let me take this a step further and preach against those who strive for world peace.

It is not simply the concept I am opposing, but rather the beliefs of the individuals who desire world peace.

The cause of "world strife" is often claimed to be capitalism and competition. The fact that individuals do not share, but rather pursue personal interest, is stated as the reason people can't just "get along." It is all things liberal and altruistic that are pointed to as solutions. These beliefs are not only harmful but ignorant to human nature, and can never succeed.

One of my high school English teachers, a former Clnl. in Vietnam, taught me "Don't make perfect the enemy of better."
Human nature, and self-interest especially, is better utilized than resisted. It is this self-interest that works to make the best products for the lowest price, raising the standard of living for everyone, including the poor.

Surely greed and desire for oil starts wars, but one must also acknowledge that free trade is equally self-interested and possibly more beneficial than the spoils of war. There is another saying, "Where goods cross borders, soldiers don't." It is voluntary interaction that benefits the world over.

One example of liberal policies that fail by rejecting human nature is minimum wage. The argument is that foreigners deserve the same wages as Americans. Putting aside who deserves what, the outcome of mandating a minimum wage of $7.25 where the wage had been 3.26 was that factories closed down in the Samoan Islands, where the cost of living is significantly lower than America's, and this loses the Islands hundreds if not a few thousand jobs, and about half of their labor force. They have less to export, making importation more costly.
http://townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams/2010/04/14/minimum_wage_cruelty
http://tunaseiners.com/blog/2009/07/american-samoa-star-kist-laying-off-about-350-workers/

Not allowing the market to compete is the surest way to ensure mediocrity, and misery. That's why naturalists swear to never interfere with the environment- to favor the worm over the bird is to ensure disaster and imbalance in a complex system of competition.
Further, the concept of "world peace" so many strive for is much more likely in a world where all countries trade and interact in their own self-interest than in a world where we deny ourselves to aid those less fortunate. The current multi-national organizations like the UN and the EU have both aspects- they advocate open borders, but also advocate a certain degree of giving up sovereignty and self-interest. Not to say I am an expert in these matters, but it seems clear this is the case.

World peace could only be accomplished in a world where all individuals constantly strive for cooperation. Too many are always going to be too likely to fall for the propaganda and lies told to them by self-interested leaders, so it is not possible unless all individuals recognize that they have a stake in keeping things peaceful and prosperous.


Edited by Doomsage680 (05/07/10 12:30 PM)
Edit Reason: Clnl. is an interesting abbreviation
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#38438 - 05/10/10 11:16 PM Re: whirl peas, my peas, your peas, his peas, herp [Re: Doomsage680]
Mordred Offline
stranger


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 15
Since it pertains to the subject, I'd recommend to anyone interested "The Wanting Seed", by Anthony Burgess (author of A Clockwork Orange). It takes an interesting, albeit cynical look at the concept of World Peace (and the problems that stem from it, like over-population). It's supposed to be humorous too, but I never got it.

But, back to the topic at hand. I think I agree most with Satansfarm on this, and to me it seems terribly unsatanic to think otherwise. Might is Right, "Do unto others as they do unto you", etc. The only way wars end is when one side yeilds, or is exterminated, and I certainly won't allow myself to be on the losing side.

I think, however, "world peace" has become a buzz-word (or phrase, rather), and in the minds of many, it implies much more than it should. Does world peace imply equality? Or the end of poverty? Or the end of capitalism? All it means is a lack of inter-national war. Since the world is not constantly at war, we know it is possible. The question is more of sustainability, and what that entails. When we realise that by accepting the implications we are being manipulated, we are one step closer to discrediting the people who spout such nonsense.

What it comes down to, really, is wether you believe people are inherently good (in the moral objectivist sense), or not. If you do, you may think persistant world peace is possible. I, however, would respectfully disagree.



Doomsage, while I agree with all the points you made, I think you misinterpret the motives of those spouting world peace. It is not that they reject selfishness, it is that they, usually being adovcates of the poor, want instant gratification. The poor are never happy when you give them a dollar, they want your whole bank account, and they want it now. They're entitiled to it, in their minds, and they say it very clearly.

They don't claim capitalism is evil, or competition is evil, they claim the people who suceeded are evil, because it's not them. The idea of world peace is not to blame here, nor the people spouting it. It is their feeling of entitlement, and want for instant gratification. But who is to blame for that...?
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"Most people would rather hear a witty quote than learn about real philosophy."

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#38453 - 05/12/10 03:21 AM Re: whirl peas, my peas, your peas, his peas, herp [Re: Mordred]
Doomsage680 Offline
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Registered: 10/01/09
Posts: 109
Loc: NJ, USA
Mordred,

I think you are correct in their motives, though it might be
unfair to say that all of them have the sense of entitlement- some sincerely do blame capitalism and competition.

My father actually worked in Sudan for a few months and came back telling me about how the pan-handlers there are very aggressive. They stand along the streets with a mean mug and shake their upturned hand toward you in a way like they are holding a coin in their pointer, middle finger, and thumb, if you can get the image. They look mad that you aren't helping them. He found this ridiculous and obviously offensive that they would look at him as though he did something to contribute to their poverty.

He mentioned that there are projects that the UN and other countries have helped their government start that they do not do because they wait for someone else to come and do it for them. The world has been passing them hand-outs for so long that they do nothing to help themselves, even letting their communities suffer while they have unused bulldozers and equipment sitting there taking up space.

If I can get up on my high horse here, one sec...
It's the globalist liberal agenda that provides the sense of entitlement among poor countries that have been getting handouts without reforming their markets or doing anything to earn them. It's the welfare state that allows some poor to feel entitled to the government support they get.

The same liberal agenda that promotes world peace at the cost of world acheivement.

Let the trade barriers fall, I say. Let the cheap Chinese goods flood American markets, let the American manufacturing industry fail and disappear entirely. Let all those people get a job in an industry that innovates and advances our countries stake in the world economy, not one that keeps outdated ideas afloat while we inevitably lose out to a billion person capitalist country that China will be. Let's start with energy. God knows that's the industry of the future.

Ill Bill once said, "Without Order Nothing Exists, Without Chaos Nothing Evolves"
Capitalism is the Order of Chaos, a way to allow evolution without total destruction. I have recently departed from my hardcore libertarianism in search of answers, answers that may or may not return me to where I have left, answers about the cause, problems, and solutions to monopolies, but the value of free markets is still clear. World peace is not limited by them, it is enabled to a greater extent. Might it be persistent? Not totally. But better- yes. Much better.

I love your quote too. I'll check out Wanting Seed.
_________________________
"I who have nothing but the comfort of my sins"
- Vinny Paz

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#38503 - 05/13/10 01:09 PM Re: World peace: a nice thought, or a possibility? [Re: zippadydooda]
Room 101 Offline
member


Registered: 10/17/09
Posts: 262
Loc: Scotland
Life is struggle strife and confrontation.

As 6 puts it, only in the absence of life will there ever be “peace”.

Really, could you honestly wish for anything worse?
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"Nothing is your own except the few cubic centimeters inside your skull." - George Orwell (1984)

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#38545 - 05/14/10 03:17 PM Re: World peace: a nice thought, or a possibility? [Re: Satansfarm]
Adversary Offline
pledge


Registered: 02/19/10
Posts: 93
 Originally Posted By: Satansfarm
There will be peace when my enemies are dead. Besides, war is an extremely profitable business. Ya gots ta eat...
I know he isn't here anymore, but to add to what he said,
 Quote:
Only the dead have seen the end of war.- Plato.

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#38895 - 05/29/10 10:28 AM Re: World peace: a nice thought, or a possibility? [Re: zippadydooda]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1007
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
As a general rule, if you assume every person is a selfish opportunists you will rarely be surprised or disappointed. From time to time some people are capable of acting out of enlightened self-interest enough to be reasonably pleasant and cooperative.

Our evolutionary biology has hard wired us to act quite cooperatively in small social groups (tribes). However, as a former prey species our evolutionary biology has also hardwired us to see things through a simple lens of friend-or-foe. As such, in large groups we tend to be quite reactionary and war like.

Since the rise of civilization, human history has been one of domination, subjugation and assimilation. As long as we live in nation states with central governments we will be stuck in this this cycle - a cycle which, by the way, retards our evolution and transhuman potential.

As a student of history and a 20 year Army veteran who has served in Panama, the First Gulf War, Haiti, the Balkans, and Afghanistan, it has been my personal observation that World Peace Can't Be Done.
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I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#38901 - 05/29/10 02:44 PM Re: World peace: a nice thought, or a possibility? [Re: Fist]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
senior member


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2232
Loc: Oregon
I haven't listened to Cro-Mags in a long time. That was a great song to wake up with. Thanks for posting it!
_________________________
Ultimate Satanic Bad Ass of Ultimate Satanic Bad Assery PhD Esq. LLC Inc.^∞ DCLXVI°

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#40292 - 07/15/10 01:11 PM Re: World peace: a nice thought, or a possibility? [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Satansfarm Offline
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Registered: 01/12/08
Posts: 352
Loc: america
World peace, hmmmm, I guess that would mean that one ruler will rise and decimate every other army on the planet. This ruler would then set up a world government. What would most likely follow is a never ending series of revolutions and insurgencies. This one world government would be forced to dispatch troops all over the world to put down rebellions.
Of course, let us not forget the never ending internal struggle for power. There will be assassinations, coups, power plays of all sorts in business and government. World peace? Are you kidding me? Humans were designed to murder each other. The best we can hope for is to stay strong enough to repel enemies during our own lifetimes long enough to enjoy the pleasures that life has to offer. If you think that you can enjoy these pleasures without someone getting jealous, guess again.
These days are filled with uncertainty. There are all these groups now who are preaching their brand of the world as it should be snake oil. End the monetary system they say. Yes, they say this and charge 300 dollars a head for admittance to guest lectures with celebrity endorsements.

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#49266 - 02/21/11 12:10 AM Re: World peace: a nice thought, or a possibility? [Re: Satansfarm]
EYEHATEGOD Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/15/11
Posts: 7
i'll add to the massive pile of negativity here... world peace is impossible at this stage in our evolution. cruelty and negativity are permanently embedded in our dna at this point, and there is no fucking way that it can be stopped. that is a concept that upsets some very idealistic people, because they feel they need that one last shred of comforting, yet basically irrational hope. the vile cancer that is the human condition will not go down or heal, but will instead eat itself alive, which it has been doing so for quite some time now, and bring our species to a violent hault. whether nature and our environment will destroy us, or we will self destruct at the bloodied hands of one another, i can't tell, but i know that it's an end not worth stopping at this point. it's not worth stopping because what this planet does is heal itself, and we need to allow the planet to do so, and in this regard world peace could be viewed as a negative thing, because us getting along and remaining here would hault the process, disrupting nature's system, causing a series of probably major fucking psychotic natural disasters in an effort to wipe out the human race, because NOTHING LASTS FOREVER. so the world peace would be short lived even if such an impractical concept for the human race were to enact itself.

ASIDE FROM ALL THAT APOCALYPTIC SHIT I WROTE UP THERE, THE MAIN THING I WANT TO WRITE, NOT THAT ANYONE REALLY GIVES A SHIT WHAT I HAVE TO SAY, IS THAT THINGS LIKE THIS DON'T MATTER. WE NEEDN'T CONCERN OUSELVES WITH WORRYING ABOUT ACHIEVING "WORLD PEACE" BECAUSE OF ITS IMPRACTICABILITY, SO ONE MUST PUT ONESELF IN A BASICALLY NONCARING STATE SO AS NOT TO BE OCCUPIED BY SUCH TAWDRY AND GOOFY QUESTIONS, AND IN ESSENCE NOT BE HARMED BY ANYTHING BECAUSE OF THAT BASIC DETACHMENT FROM THINGS WE'RE TOLD WE SHOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT. PUT YOURSELF IN A STATE WERE YOU DON'T EVEN MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS. WORRY ABOUT WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO YOU...

I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT, SO DON'T LISTEN TO ME

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#49271 - 02/21/11 01:05 AM Re: World peace: a nice thought, or a possibility? [Re: EYEHATEGOD]
MatthewJ1 Offline
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Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 529
Loc: Australia
Post 1945 war planning (in the first world or within the imperial system) has always been conditioned, or rather restrained by the nuclear deterrent, economic control and balance of power politics between the major players.

Those countries, in the first world, who have walked a fine line and have come close to war, such as during the Berlin Blockade of 1948-1949 and the missile crisis of October 1962 etc., know deep down that there can never be another great war between the major players. I think the major players are in a stalemate.

The only other option is to go to war against the third world and I think this is the major form of war since 1945. The reasons for these wars have to do with colonisation and the control of resources, markets and populations in my view.

I assume that at some stage in the future the threat of environmental disaster will put an end to these types of war between the imperial and the third world, but who can say for sure. Or, maybe another imperial power will replace the previous power if any country can actually afford it.

I believe world peace is closer than you think.

Maybe some small countries will have their local squabbles but in the long term, and within the larger scene it has little bearing.

We are prepared for war in order to guarantee the peace; and we guarantee the peace and end up putting our own long term survival in jeopardy.

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#49288 - 02/21/11 01:55 PM Re: World peace: a nice thought, or a possibility? [Re: Severed Soul]
Hegesias Offline
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Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 702
To move over/ overcome all possibility of such burden synonymous to and by which the mundane inoperable psyche is consigned to ie. the peace/ equality pathos that cosigns they, the mundanes, to potter in monotonous absurdity, they stand for flaccid ego gratification/ materialistic contentment seeking, a conscious avoidance of any Semitic/ Christian abstraction, such as Kabbalah, Qliphoth, and other abstractions of Nazarene/ Hebrew magick ought to be looked upon with indifference. A deliberate disassociation with all contemporary Occult/ Satanic groups ought to be exercised if a truly sinister weltanschauung/ paradigm is to emerge from ones currently sinister Will/ psyche. To develop under-developed faculties from this unmanifest potential to bring about the emergence of actualised evolution, of sinister actuality and anarchistic causal change in what is considered to be the real life, physical, phenomenal world we are aware of through our senses and which we empathise with, which includes most strongly our own human species, and other life. The laws of nature ought to be recognised as the guide for the evolution of species, that she is assumed to work as we recognise in the animal kingdom and beyond our own human constructs. The human/ animal behaviour known assumed to be linked to empathy is not limited to compasion/ affection. That this behaviour 'peacful' assumption is not to be confused with passivity nor to be forced or 'used' as an avoidance tactic to seek comfort in the developed world, but ought to be recognised as the necessary reaction to our own sinister kind. Wolves bearing teeth over meat respect one another and eat within this stimulating bond, if one shows meekness He is to be bitten and thus shown how to be assertive, or to simply leave and be a lone wolf if age is a factor, often strengthening him even more than staying within his pack would have done, with the possibility of finding another lone wolf of the opposite sex to start a new pack with. However we know what happens to weaklings trying to leech.

It is ingrained into our very genetic make-up as social animals to be hostile to any males from an invading tribe, this instinctual feeling is simply natures way of protecting our particular noble females which are the holders of our particular bloodline mixed race or not which has survived (whichever race we may be) from dying out and thus losing in the battle for progression which is governed by the laws of nature. If we decide to make unnatural choice, against our will for the sake of comfort/ peace then we subject ourselves to stagnation and instead an understanding that separatism/ individualism is where equilibrium can be attained within our own distinctly different and colourful cultures. Whether one lives, dies or becomes happy is nature and progression, but it is evident to see that the strongest survive, thrive and make real life progression through a conquest and settlement process that is not governed by anything to do with stasis, equality. Since we
have developed over the years, reason, and empathy, and the understanding of nature, ourselves and the cosmos, in a natural manner without abstract forms of apprehension or intermediary faculties such as contemporary or otherwise 'God'.

Peace is a state of mind not to be confused with an actualised instatement of passivity or anything otherwise which can assert itself into the phenomenal world, as the idea of peace itself is passive. Peace is but a stage from which Will to Power can enter and assert itself, objective reality, because the real world is in constant flux/ change, if we consider a world populated by an unbalanced pseudo-equilibrium such as a 'paradise' for example, we come to see that this is the conditions for the Will to Power to assert itself and make progression, in all honesty, in this we see that we as sinister beings are not within our nature, peaceful, we are able to be affectionate and compassionate to our own because we are balanced with the laws of nature and not deluded with an unnatural search for contentment within the confines of societies imposed 'safety', and 'equality'. So instead of thinking about world peace we ought to be thinking of our own sinister kind, our close ones.

There is thought to be but one pure blooded Zulu shaman on the face of the Earth, the shamanistic knowledge and tradition is passed down orally through generations and generations, and is one of the most naturalistic/ human traditions in existence. What has happened here.


Saying that though, I would personally like to see the planet we have called Earth burned to a crisp by a cosmic catastrophe ensuring the impossibility of mankind's rebirth as a whole just for a sick laugh, my laughter being the insentient silence around still and peaceful blackened bones, but reality being what it is, something constantly moving and evolving, we simply have to live here and do the same.

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#49302 - 02/21/11 04:36 PM Re: World peace: a nice thought, or a possibility? [Re: Hegesias]
Diavolo Moderator Offline
Moderator
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 3776
General reply:

When understanding Will to Power, one understands that world peace is an illusion.

There are decent webpages for those not familiar or not really understanding Nietzsche's WtP. As a satanist, I consider WtP "Class A" reading material; it is essential.

 Quote:
...
Nietzsche begins, in §716-719, by arguing that in the modern world, societies as a whole tell us a great deal more about the nature of mankind (as will to power) than do individuals. States act in ways toward each other for which individuals do not have the strength or courage, because states do not feel responsible for their actions as do individuals. The external behavior of the state is that of conquest and war, acting in accordance with the will to power. The state is able to engage in this behavior by dividing up the labor and executive powers among its individuals, so that no one individual can feel as though one bears significant responsibility for the state's actions. It instills in its people values such as obedience, duty, and patriotism, while it outwardly exudes values such as strength, pride, and revenge. The former values are instilled by the state's overpowering of the individual, so that one is compelled to serve in its interests.

As I understand these passages, individuals do not have the courage or strength to act in violent ways toward one another because of the Judeo-Christian ethical/moral code that has become ingrained in them. In other words, they cannot exert their will to power in the violent ways which they otherwise would naturally. Instead, the will to power can be found in individuals in certain disguised forms, as we will see when the will to power as individual is explicated. Feelings of potential guilt and fear of punishment (whether institutional or in a life beyond) for breaking moral and legal rules prevent them from acting in such a manner. The state, however, is not bound by Judeo-Christian-type moral duties and imperatives, so it is therefore unrestrained in the exertion of its will to power, which comes in the natural forms of violence and conquest. Nietzsche writes in §716:

The whole of 'altruism' reveals itself as the prudence of the private man: societies are not 'altruistic' towards one another--The commandment to love one's neighbor has never yet been extended to include one's actual neighbor.

By "actual neighbor," I take Nietzsche to be referring to bordering states or societies, as the context would indicate. It seems then, that Nietzsche is trying to say that the violence inherent in the way a society exerts its will to power is evidence that the true nature of man is one of violence also. What Nietzsche reveals about the nature of states in these passages is interestingly similar to some of the political views which Noam Chomsky has professed--that states are fundamentally violent institutions and a state's internally espoused values have no bearing whatsoever on its external behavior. This is not to say, however, that Chomsky subscribes to Nietzsche's doctrine of the will to power, but Nietzsche does seem to anticipate Chomsky and others who have said similar such things regarding the nature of states and societies. Other than that, however, their views differ considerably. Nietzsche seems to approve of the violent conquest of others while Noam Chomsky, of course, does not.

What Nietzsche certainly does not approve of, however, is the fact that the state suppresses the natural, violent instincts of the individual to acquire power in an effort to keep one at the level of the herd. This keeping-in-check of the individual is done through the aforementioned values which are instilled and enforced by the overwhelming power of the state (which represents the herd). The herd/state's maintenance of its power over individuals is done out of fear of those who would attempt to act upon their most natural instincts to seek power and 'freedom', wherein freedom, to Nietzsche, means sovereignty--to be at the top of the heap, in other words (see §770, pp. 404). This instinct to fight one's way to the top in search of power and freedom is thus kept in check by the herd through the machinery of the state. Those who do try to act upon these instincts are branded as criminals and are removed from society. Therefore, in this respect, all truly great men, according to Nietzsche, are criminals in some respect, in that they are individuals who are courageous enough to act in a way that goes against the conformity of the herd. Nietzsche expresses this sentiment in §740:

Crime belongs to the concept "revolt against the social order." One does not "punish" a rebel; one suppresses him. A rebel can be a miserable and contemptible man; but there is nothing contemptible in a revolt as such--and to be a rebel in view of contemporary society does not in itself lower the value of a man. There are even cases in which one might have to honor a rebel, because he finds something in our society against which war ought to be waged--he awakens us from our slumber.
...


Society and the Individual in Nietzsche's The Will to Power - Travis J. Denneson

There is much more out there and it doesn't hurt developing own thoughts upon it.

D.

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