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#3731 - 01/30/08 08:57 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Chandler]
daevid777 Offline
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Buddha might also have said "Knowledge is the cause of suffering"...

I can personally vouch for "fire", as well as "boiling hot tea" spilled on your chest. Of course "Fire is the cause of boiling hot tea", but you may be onto something there Chandler, because "Boiling hot tea does not necessarily lead to Fire". It just feels that way.

Thanks for the "Classic" reference, I try...

How about this... can anyone pinpoint in literature (other than the christian "bible") the first references made to the "Left Hand Path", in regards to "philosophy" or "magical" practices? Or, are we mostly getting the first taste of this word by a few creepy words in Mr. LaVey's lovely tomes?

Maybe I'm making too much out of this...
_________________________
Where we're going, we don't need roads.

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#3732 - 01/31/08 03:10 AM Logic 101 [Re: Chandler]
Meq Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
 Originally Posted By: Chandler
"Ignorance is the cause of suffering" can be symbolized with logical connectives in the following way:


Erm, no it can't.

 Quote:

iI: Ignorance
iS: Suffering

Proposition: "If I then S"

"If S then I" DOES NOT FOLLOW.


Since when was "I is the cause of S" equivalent to "If I then S"?
"I is the cause of S" does not even IMPLY "If I then S".


Example:
A carrot is pretty ignorant. Does that make it suffer?

If we assume (purely for the sake of argument):
"I is the cause of S" -
does this logically imply that S, given I?

Not in any universe I know of.


However, "I is the (sole) cause of S" DOES IMPLY "If S then I".

The Buddha's formula was DIAGNOSTIC - the presence of S was used to diagnose the presence of I as the root cause.
So yes, "If S then I" is indeed what is implied.

 Quote:

It must hurt to be so illogical.


Please excuse the switch from logic to psychology:

pro·jec·tion [n] the tendency to ascribe to another person feelings, thoughts, or attitudes present in oneself


 Quote:
Ignorance can't be the ONLY cause of suffering. I imagine the Buddha had knowledge of fire, if he existed.

Perhaps he realised that one needed to be ignorant to burn oneself? \:D

Or more likely - the issue is more likely to be that "suffering" in Buddhist philosophy carries different connotations to the English word.
The original Pali word translated "suffering" is "dukkha", which instead carries connotations of "dissatifactoriness with life".
Buddha's point was that this form of suffering is caused by a form of "ignorance".

Or, if even we accept the wider definition of "suffering" - it has been empirically verified that subjects in deep meditation or hypnosis can develop the ability to 'turn off' pain/suffering in ANY form (physical or emotional).
Buddha seemed like a pretty deep meditator, so this may well have been his experience (whether a real or fictional person).

For such an adept, it is not much of a stretch to conceptualise the INABILITY to do this as - well - ignorance.

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#3740 - 02/01/08 08:29 AM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: daevid777]
Chandler Offline
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Registered: 08/30/07
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The first mention that I know of about a LHP as a "forbidden" road, was made by Blavatsky. But my reference is more "classic" (arcane) than that. I'm drawing from her roots in the Kabala.

Some will obviously view it as not only arcane, but archaic.

After a philosopher comes out with a radical view, society has a tendency to suffer it (that is, to experience it independently of intentionality) at birth by default. One has to actually fight against the Cartesian pre-reflective cogito to get rid of it: that annoying little Cartesian philosopher/apprentice inside that believes thinking somehow evidences your existence in some unique way, i.e. acts as a necessary and sufficient cause for it. 500 years ago, this proposition would have seemed absurd. Squirrels don't think. If they weren't conscious of their existence, why would they eat so strategically (or at all for that matter)?

LaVey is only regarded as an authority on the Left Hand Path at all because so few have dared to publish with regards to it (Black/Hyatt "Pacts with the Devil" will provide you with a better look. So will any authoritative book on Shamanism: try the Princeton guide to Shamanism, or Castaneda. Steer clear of everything else). LaVey's views are just good sense, when they are interpreted in a modest light, but not particularly identified with any organized tradition that I am aware of. That is not to say that LaVeyan is not fast in becoming an organized tradition. It certainly is.

Depending on your interpretation (of reality, as well as literature), the Left Hand Path either a) begins when you fail to achieve union with or abandon your Holy Guardian Angel prior to approaching the Abyss, at which time you will be cast back down to Malkuth, and become a restless earthbound sorcerer with too much power for his own wisdom to direct, or b) this moment of truth just proves that you have always been on the Left Hand Path, and does not mark a genuine failure. The difference between these two views, in my opinion, is the pertinence of free will to them. If we just "find out" whether or not we were on the Left Hand Path all along, is it something to worry about? Certainly not. And this was Crowley's view, I think, and mine.

Being on the left hand path is kind of like stepping off on the wrong (that is, the minority) foot on a march because you didn't jump to the same conclusions as the rest of the crowd. Its only misfortune may be in that it is against the grain or powers that be. The Left Hand Path is more epistemologically responsible, but less emotionally responsible or sympathetic. The Left Hand Path tends to take a more revolutionary effect, but is not usually appreciated during its time. The Left Hand Path actually takes a great deal of the world's Karma onto itself, and gets the job done better and faster than the Right Hand Path.

Both paths require wholesale stockpiled pyramidal warehouses of ignorance to be possible in the first place. Ignorance is the reciprocative ratio of omniscience quantified. If you're soft, you shouldn't be on either path. My recommendation has always been to come in for a cleaning once a year and don't use artificial whiteners.

You're a stick with it guy Dave. You've been more devoted to this site than I have. I didn't know if you would like it at all at first. If I had a business of any kind, I would hire you \:\)

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#3744 - 02/01/08 01:05 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: daevid777]
Morgan Offline
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
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I have 2 books which are translated spellbooks from sumeria. Among the writing are spells to keep vampires types away.
Its not some cheezy new age shit, these books were translated from discovered tablets back in the 1920's.

The stuff is out there, if you want to look.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#3898 - 02/05/08 11:54 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: daevid777]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
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Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 629
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: daevid777
Hello my sinister fellows,

I've heard many things of the "LHP", and read a great deal as well... These definitions don't always exactly coincide - so, I am making a request of you "friends", if you would be kind enough to explain what the Left Hand Path means to you.

With gratitude,

David.


In india there's Right Hand Tantrika and Left Hand tantrika.
Right Hand Tantrika is that spiritual shit where you meditate and hum and chant to try and raise your kundalini engergy with your mind.

Left Hand Tantrika is when you get a girl and bang her. It's the road less traveled and embraces a more earthy... human... physical approach to encountering the ''divine'' or whatever you what to call it.

I suppose the "Left Hand Path" maybe related to this concept in some way.

You may have already gotten your answer. If so this is probably redundant and useless.
_________________________
Lux Ex Tenebris
Lux Lucet Ex Orientis


~~352~~


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#17856 - 01/08/09 09:39 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: daevid777]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
If it's so politely asked David, I can't refuse. \:D

So let's go:

All religions and philosophies agree that it’s natural for any man to look for happiness. They all say to propose a way to reach such “happiness”. This way is forcedly sustained by a vision. The vision of an ideal world. A world where all men would be Xians, or Muslims, or Satanists (sectarian view) or would be true RHP/LHP followers (open-minded view).

The difference between the LHP & the RHP stands in one unique thing:- the RHP followers adopt the idealist point of view. They believe in an ideal world which is based on peace, altruism, compassion, love, etc. The true RHP followers will cultivate them and discipline himself hoping that there are enough people acting as him for getting closer to his view of the ideal world. In addition, generally, the true RHP followers are promised to have a “place in heaven”
- The LHP follower adopts the realist point of view. He does not believe that this ideal world is possible. He just accepts the reality as it is and copes with it. There is war, it’s not new and it’s not finished! The world is a jungle with sheeps, wolfs, snakes, rabbits etc. And the LHP follower believes that he has more chance to be happy as a wolf or a snake than as a lamb or a rabbit.

So finally, is it possible it could be just a question of point of view according to you?
Could it be that this image reflects reality? : Happiness is at the top of a mountain and the mountain has two sides, a bright right one and a dark left one. There are many paths starting at the bottom of mountain, some in the dark, some in the light.

For sake of completeness I’ll mention those following no path at all. They’re declined in a variety of kinds. There are those who go from paths entries to path entries at the bottom of the mountain without being able to choose one. The lazy staying at the bottom because it’s easier to walk in the plain. The fundamentalists who spend more energy at hitting anybody they cross over urging him to go faster and to stay strictly on the middle of the path. The Ron Hubbard who build a brand new path with a very attractive entry. But the path is sinuous and flat and after 200 meters it ends on a trap. Without forgetting, last but not least, the “free stylers” who follow no path but seem to “smell” the happiness; they go straight forward and start to climb. It’s risky, some get lost, some others fall and are injured or even die. But there are some that excel in climbing even in the most difficult terrain.

There are a lot of questions that this image can illustrate. For instance what about the disabled? Should we help them? However, it would be off topic to discuss this example here. Please do not come back on it!. (I'll may be elaborate this mountain image in an new thread.)


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#17946 - 01/10/09 01:30 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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It might feel natural, logical or correct to pursue happiness but I don't think it is a required, neither desired goal-objective. If you try to perceive things as beyond good and evil, you do at the same time have to perceive them beyond happiness and sadness. After all, if happiness is the ultimate goal in one's life, one is happiness' ultimate slave and the pursue of happiness becomes a pursue of idealism.

Both the RHP and LHP are goal-oriented, even if some goals apparently might lead nowhere.
Attainability of those goals and the "who controls" factor in it are decisive in what makes someone follow RHP or LHP goals and ultimately one of both paths. The problem with goals and the way we perceive them is linked to attainability. Once a goal isn't attainable it stops being a goal and becomes an ideal. Once it is an ideal, all attempts to reach that ideal are by definition RHP oriented actions. The controlling factor shifts from you to the ideal and you submit yourself to that very ideal.

Now, where does happiness fit in? One can say that reaching a goal brings happiness. Sometimes yes but a goal should not be pursued because of happiness but out of necessity. If the fulfillment of necessity at the same times brings happiness, great but it doesn't need to. There are certain goals one can pursue that do not necessarily bring happiness, that even might cause discomfort or pain but even with that, their necessity justifies all attempts to accomplishing that goal.

D.

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#17947 - 01/10/09 01:58 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Diavolo]
ceruleansteel Offline
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Registered: 10/15/07
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Are you just trying to play "devil's advocate"?

Because when I read this, I am left with a picture of an apathetic person who aspires to nothing but meeting basic needs for survival and has no real motivations/etc for anything but the very second in time they are living in.

How can you say that all ideals are RHP oriented? What if my unattainable goal is to see someone dead?

As for that, what say you on goals that ARE attainable? Does one become a sell-out for reaching them?

Certain goals one can pursue that do not bring happiness....why the hell would one pursue such a goal and what could that goal possibly be?

My goal is to be gored by a bull in Spain. My goal is to display the ultimate defeatest attitude.

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#17948 - 01/10/09 02:19 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: ceruleansteel]
Diavolo Offline
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Nope, I'm serious as can be.

It has nothing to do with being apathetic or not. It's not because a goal is attainable that it doesn't go deeper than getting your next plate of food. An ideal is not attainable, we don't need to argue about that. Do you feel a sell-out for getting a job you have in mind?

Do you think RHP and LHP are so easily divided that all it takes is a difference between good and bad? That all good acts are RHP and that killing is by definition a LHP act?

What could such a goal be that does not bring happiness? One that brings insight? Do you think every bit of insight brings joy?

D.

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#17949 - 01/10/09 05:02 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Diavolo]
ceruleansteel Offline
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Registered: 10/15/07
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Loc: Behind you
 Originally Posted By: Diavolo

Do you think RHP and LHP are so easily divided that all it takes is a difference between good and bad?



It's not that so much as I'm trying to picture the existance you are painting and I am thinking that I have GOT to be misunderstanding what you are describing....

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#17953 - 01/10/09 06:07 PM LHP [Re: ceruleansteel]
Diavolo Offline
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I assume you are misunderstanding it indeed.

Judging acts in itself is trivial and can't be considered as either RHP or LHP. An act is just the transition between necessity and goal. So murder, theft or giving cookies to the poor are no indication at all. When I talk about goal, I do not talk about an ultimate destination or a greater plan. I do talk about every attainable necessity you want/need to fulfill.

D.

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#17956 - 01/10/09 06:44 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
I never said something else, but it's good to mention the risk of running after ideals.
But I think many fall in the trap of conceiving happiness as a kind of special state, an absence of inconvenient. I suspect that this is a "psychological nostalgy" of when we were in our mother's womb. It's the paradise : never cold nor to hot, never hungry nor thirsty, no effort to do...
But it's forgetting that there you cannot know smell of a good wine, the pleasure of sex, or the adrenaline provided by extreme sports. So, when the life is rude, a lot become nostalgic...

I think it's Dan who said "Satanism is a journey, not a destination". It's not specific to LHP, I heard the same from a Zen master. But you can't realise that when you're starting at the bottom of the mountain. It's on the way, when you reach some altitude that you realise that "the path has no end" or at least that happiness is not exactly what you thought it to be when you started the path.

I also read the answer of ceruleansteel; may be using dreams instead of ideal could bring some light. I can understand that a life without any dream can appear quite sad. To me a dream is a goal without an action plan. It's only by stopping to dream about it and start concretely think about that you can estimate if your goal is attainable or not.

Finally, what do you thisnk about this ideal : "Live your life to the fullest" ?

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#17957 - 01/10/09 06:58 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Fabiano]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
I personally live my life to self satisfaction.

"The fullest" is at best a movable target... unachievable, but a lofty "goal." There will always be things that you want to attain or obtain, but nothing REALLY goes to "happiness" as a goal. The best one can ever hope to achieve, to my mind, is self satisfaction.

I COULD still be at work and making money for other people, along the line making a little extra for myself. But it's much more satisfying to my sense of self that I now do what I want to do, not dependent upon being paid by some "boss," other than myself. I have my own. I'm satisfied that I am, for all intent and purpose, the boss. Of course, like all others, I have to pay my taxes and regard the obligations of citizenry that all must, if one is active in one's community and culture, but I choose how much immersion I would subject myself to.

So, am I "happy?" I can't say that I'm "UNHAPPY," rather that I am currently satisfied. I may choose to engage in some commercial enterprise at some future time, but the key is that it would be a time and for a reason of my own choosing. That's the benefit of relative independence. I'm satisfied to be comfortable in my own skin and my own surroundings.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#17958 - 01/10/09 07:25 PM Re: LHP [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
Fully agreed!

You can find this on the RHP in "do not judge because you'll be judged by the emasure you judged others" or in that fact that "only God can judge because he's the only one being able to read in man's heart (i.e. knowing the full context)". Also there're many Warriors on the RHP. The Bhagavad-Gîtâ is the story of a battle with Krishna leading one camp...

On the LHP, if you start imagining your ideal world with the idea that a LHP follower should do evil things, you quickly realise it's not sustainaible. It leads to hell (as basic Xians see Statanists)! So, it's may be harder to fall in the ideal world trap.

Last thought :
One can imagine the ideal RHP world: where all people take care of other's needs. They look for giving and not for receiving, etc. What a paradise!

But it sucks!

What happen to rabbits in a world where there are no wolfs? They multiply! It's even a order of God in the Bible and we know RHP are mostly against natality control. Or they control natality or they start to starve. In both cases the ideal world collapse.

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#17959 - 01/10/09 07:38 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
I agree, most think that because one talks about a path that this very path does need to have a starting point and an end. That's not true. We do have a starting point and an end but the path hasn't. The end is something one cannot reach, no matter how many cultures talk about enlightenment. When you set an ideal, you set an artificial end, which simply can never be reached.

I personally don't find dreams very attractive examples. Dreams and hope are what the weak use to escape reality. A goal implies direction and action. Dreams feel kinda stagnant.

Live your life to the fullest is indeed an ideal and the more you define your, the more idealistic it becomes. It's semantics but if you prefer to have a non-idealist slogan to life, I'd say; "do what you need to do" is telling it all.

D.

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