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#2847 - 12/22/07 03:03 AM "Left Hand Path"
daevid777 Offline
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Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Hello my sinister fellows,

I've heard many things of the "LHP", and read a great deal as well... These definitions don't always exactly coincide - so, I am making a request of you "friends", if you would be kind enough to explain what the Left Hand Path means to you.

With gratitude,

David.
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#2853 - 12/22/07 09:26 AM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: daevid777]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Wiki has a pretty good article on the LHP:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-Hand_Path_and_Right-Hand_Path

It is good starting point for the novice who is exploring the LHP.

Of course, a good survey of Crowley can go a long way toward your understanding of the LHP - just don't get bogged down in the esoteric. Remember, Crowley writes in a metaphoric stream of consciousness style. Either you will understand it or you will not.

And, perhaps the simplest explanation of the LHP can be found in the Samhain song "Lords of the Left Hand"

Left hand power of the pure
The world will tremble at our command
Left hand power of the lords
Builds upon our destiny
Destiny, take this land
Take this land by the death of man
Left hand triumph of the will
The world will whimper in our wake

At war with the planets
At war with all mankind
We will change the face of this earth
As our lord commands
In our holy quest for supremacy
Be our holy crime

Left hand power to take
What was ours from the day of birth
Left hand is grasping strong
It does not fear its destiny

At war with the planets
At war with all mankind
We will change the face of this earth
As our lord commands
In our holy quest for supremacy
Be our holy crime

Left hand, destiny
Left hand

At war with the planets
At war with all mankind
We will change the face of this earth
As our lord commands
In our holy quest for supremacy
Be our holy crime
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I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#2862 - 12/23/07 03:07 AM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Fist]
daevid777 Offline
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Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Dear Mr. Fist...

You may know a little bit about me... I truly wasn't asking for a Wikipedia definition... I almost feel insulted.

"At war with the planets"??? At war with the planets? No, I wouldn't dare, nor would I know how to start such a war. Nor would I ever want to.

You invite the name of Crowley, and I know his stance on this topic, yet it seems to contradict that which is used, or abused ad nauseum here. We are not so enlightened that we can use the Crowley definition, I think...

I was asking a "personal" question - what does it mean "to you"?

Thanks for your response, though. I hope you are doing well.
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#2866 - 12/23/07 09:50 AM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: daevid777]
Fist Moderator Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
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Loc: B'mo Cautious MF
Then I will cut more or less to the chase...

The LHP is to be lived. Reading about it is not going to help that much. It is found in the practical application of the principle. For the real world try this as a LHP mission statement: The the needs, wants and desires of the individual trump those of the collective.

Enlightened self-interest over altruism.

And let us not forget:

"Do what thou will, shall be the whole of the law."

Is anyone still confused?

As an aside, again I will point out that Crowley confuses people because of his metaphoric stream of consciousness style. People look 'up' to him instead of just looking 'at' him. I think this is covered in the first few pages of TSB.

I really think most students of the occult look at Crowley the same way Xtians look at Jesus.
_________________________
I am the Devil and I am here to do the Devil's work.

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#2871 - 12/23/07 01:36 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: daevid777]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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What does the Left Hand path mean to me? An easy question, with a complicated answer, and at times even a hypocritical one. Kind of like “Do as I say, not as I do.”
In other words, I don’t always follow what I preach.

First of all, to me, the definition of the Left Hand Path, comes from the Bible (and please don’t ask me for the verse, I don’t know it). Somewhere in that book, it is said that God will separate the good guys from the bad, by putting the sheep (good guys) by his right hand, and the goats (bad guys) by his left hand.
Feel free to correct me, if it does not actually say that. I might be just repeating some shit that I have heard, and not actually read. Sometimes the two gets confused in my little brain.

Therefore, according to that statement, I find myself by God’s left hand, with the goats.

Not because I am an Evil, bad guy, who looks to rebel against anything that might be considered as good, but because by my nature, and by what my life experience has taught me, it is not beneficial for my well being to follow all of the rules set forth by “God.”

That is all metaphor of course. Hopefully, if you have been around for awhile, you don’t need an explanation of why the above is not meant literally.

Through living, research, and personal experience, I have learned to embrace my HUMAN nature for all that it’s worth, instead of my SPIRITUAL nature, which I have come to believe to be just opium for a weak mind and spirit.

On the Right hand path, are the sheep, who follow just about any whim of spiritual ideal vomited up by either ancient or new aged so called prophets, psychoanalysts, gurus, and other “specialists,” who claim to have the answer for the way that I “should” live my life.

We have these people on the Left Hand too, but in many cases they are more likely to give us their opinions, and send us on our merry way, to continue to search our own path, and to see for ourselves, if there is any truth for us, in what they claim. They give tangible examples, and most of their theories are backed up by history (as we know it), and by the objective observation of human nature.

While the prophets of the right hand say “have faith in what I say, on my word alone,” the prophets of the Left Hand say, “Listen to what I say, then go out and test it for yourself, if you don’t find it to be true, then go find another way.....but pay for the book just the same.”

I’ve been on the right hand path, and the left hand path.

I found that obedience and faith brings peace of mind, and harmony. If it sucks, give it to Jesus, and let him bare the burden.

The Left Hand path brings real struggle, conflict, pain, discomfort, loneliness (at times), but it also brings self confidence, self reliance, the desire to live and to enjoy what exists now and not in some imagined after life.

There are no second chances on the left hand path. If you don’t tell people you care about how much they mean to you NOW, you will not have the opportunity to tell them after they are gone. Our time is precious to us, and if we don’t grasp it by the balls today, we realize that we may not have a tomorrow to do so.

Our fuck ups or so called burdends and misfortunes are ours alone to bare, and we do not have the privilage of blaming the cosmos for them. We are the ones responsible for ourselves and our lives. The blame, and the buck stop at our feet.
On the other hand, we give credit where it’s due. We applaud human accomplishment. We are truly greatful for our human healers, instead of taking the credit away from them, and giving it to a spirit in the sky.

We do not feel guilty for our pride, in our own accomplishments either. While others may claim that we are lucky to have the good things in life, we know that luck is simply “Preparedness meeting opportunity,” and we look for that chance everywhere we can.

When the shit hits the fan, and most of the world is on their knees looking for a magical hand to save them, we are on our feet, barring our teeth, swords, and using our brains to get ourselves out of the mess. Even if we fail, we may be proud, and take comfort in the knowledge, that we put up one hell of a fight, and although the opposition might have won, they are bleeding and torn, as they limp away in pain, with their victory, licking their wounds. While those on the Right Hand path, are turning the other cheek, so that too can get bashed in.
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#2872 - 12/23/07 01:59 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Asmedious]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
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Addendum: I wanted to delete my previous post up there, but ran out of time. I don’t like it. Too much verbal diarrhea on my part. I fell into the “Let me try to sound smart” trap, and I didn’t have enough time to even do that right. Notice my over use of the word “We.” Big trap right there. Who the fuck am I, to speak of a “WE,” when it’s all about “ME.”

This is what happens, if we, I mean, if I rush to write a response without taking the time to write it well, edit it, and let it mature before I post it. Ooops.
_________________________
"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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#2873 - 12/23/07 03:03 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Asmedious]
fakepropht Moderator Offline
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I found it to be well written, informative, and a good read. I would have given it a star. "We", er I, thank you that you ran out of time and didn't delete it. If this is your version of verbal diarrhea, then pass the bottle of Pepto to someone else.
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#3036 - 12/31/07 02:34 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: fakepropht]
x.emo.danny.x Offline
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Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 40
Just to say, the right left thing is in the bible. Book of revelations and a little in john and its tnuched upon in daniel.
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#3046 - 12/31/07 06:55 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: x.emo.danny.x]
foras Offline
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Registered: 12/24/07
Posts: 29
 Quote:
Just to say, the right left thing is in the bible. Book of revelations and a little in john and its tnuched upon in daniel.



What? show some respect, I belive David asked for educated, or for a real response.


Edited by foras (12/31/07 06:59 PM)
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#3057 - 01/01/08 03:27 AM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: foras]
Octavius Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
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Redundant, but I agree with Asmedious. LHP is simply a means manifesting your own desires to their conclusion. Someone once put a twist on an old adage that I find a bit corny, but true...

"Few follow the beat of a different drummer, fewer still beat their own drum."

I think it's paramount to keep the independent nature of Satanism unbound by anyone's definitions...otherwise your just following a different drummer. Why be relegated to a sheep or a goat when you can be whatever you want?
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#3085 - 01/02/08 06:57 AM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Octavius]
daevid777 Offline
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Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 951
Loc: Hell's Pisshole, Texas
Yes, thanks to all, especially those with diarrhea...

I may have been asking too much here, but I thought it should have been the right place.

Good answers, all around.

Thank you all, good (or not so good) people.

By no means do I wish to close this particular thread by saying so, I just thank you for your responses thus far...
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Where we're going, we don't need roads.

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#3105 - 01/02/08 10:19 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: daevid777]
x.emo.danny.x Offline
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Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 40
I was refering to asmedius when he said about the goats and jesus. i was just stating that yes it was in the bible and where to locate it if hecared to.
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#3592 - 01/19/08 12:25 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: daevid777]
Chandler Offline
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Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 36
I hate to see a classic thread like this end without my name in it somewhere.

The Qabala has sharpened my understanding of the RHP and LHP a great deal. Both paths include both pillars (the white/right, left/black pillars, as they are often denoted), but there is usually an unspoken preference for one over the other. The difference, in my opinion, is one of taste. I chose the LHP, because that's the one I was on, and the taste I had already acquired.

The summit of either path leads the summit of the other. They descend from the same source. The pure stream contains both essences. The completion of one is the completion of the other. But no goal is ever fully understood until it is achieved. One definitively cannot yet know what one is setting out to learn. The meaning of "Great Work" changes dramatically with every attainment. So one is never farther down any path; only ever setting foot on a brand new one.

Before I go on:

Left Pillar:
3: Understanding
5: Extremity;Strength/Fear/Justice
7: Glory;Splendor
Right Pillar:
2: Wisdom
4: Mildness;Mercy;Love/Magnificence
7: Victory
Middle Pillar:
1: Crown
-: Knowledge
6: Beauty
9: Foundation
10: Kingdom

The LHP is wrought with more suffering than the RHP. There's no way around that one. But you really have no choice in the matter. If you have an uncompromising will or lack guidance, you are on the LHP. If you have no will of your own or take the truth for granted, you are on the RHP. And there are infinite degrees of interpolation.

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#3609 - 01/20/08 09:16 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Chandler]
Meq Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 861
 Originally Posted By: Chandler
The LHP is wrought with more suffering than the RHP. There's no way around that one.


Your signature unknowingly refutes that statement:

 Quote:
"Ignorance is the cause of suffering."
-The Buddha


If ignorance is the cause of suffering, then a LHP practitioner had better curb his or her ignorance (or egotistical impulses such as projection, denial and other psychological defense mechanisms).

If he cannot attain less or the same level of suffering as a RHP practitioner, and the Buddha's statement is true, does this not mean that the LHP is a more ignorant path than the RHP? Or would you rather re-consider some of the assumptions involved here?

For me personally, the LHP represents the pursuit of individual happiness, through power, intelligence, love, or whatever means to that end.
I do not endorse Nietzsche's view of sacrificing happiness (and even one's life) to the pursuit of power as an end in itself (did Nietzsche prefigure Hitler here?).
This is masochistic, self-destructive and (how ironically!) martyrlike. It is still unnecessary excessive sacrifice to an illusiory ideal.

The LHP to me represents a balanced individualistic path in which one's personal survival, well-being and happiness is paramount, personal power is exercised as a means to the end of this goal, and an objective and rational viewpoint (free from ignorance) is achieved, with free thought and a freedom from sheeplike conformity.


Incidentally (to avoid any confusion), this has little to do with the left side of the Kabbalistic Tree of Life, which seems not intended to be 'chosen' in preference to the 'right side' in a strictly 'either/or' manner - I see the Kabbalah as operating somewhat like the Taoist principles of Yin and Yang, in which both opposing tendencies are harmonised.
The distinction of LHP as a choice distinct from the RHP is more of an emphasis on individuality (in my interpretation of it), rather than a rigid 'either/or' approach which fails to achieve any balance with the other side of the equation.

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#3611 - 01/20/08 09:52 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Meq]
Chandler Offline
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Registered: 08/30/07
Posts: 36
"Ignorance is the cause of suffering" can be symbolized with logical connectives in the following way:

iI: Ignorance
iS: Suffering

Proposition: "If I then S"

"If S then I" DOES NOT FOLLOW.

It must hurt to be so illogical.

(Added the following thirty seconds later):

Ignorance can't be the ONLY cause of suffering. I imagine the Buddha had knowledge of fire, if he existed.



Edited by Chandler (01/20/08 09:58 PM)

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#3731 - 01/30/08 08:57 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Chandler]
daevid777 Offline
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Buddha might also have said "Knowledge is the cause of suffering"...

I can personally vouch for "fire", as well as "boiling hot tea" spilled on your chest. Of course "Fire is the cause of boiling hot tea", but you may be onto something there Chandler, because "Boiling hot tea does not necessarily lead to Fire". It just feels that way.

Thanks for the "Classic" reference, I try...

How about this... can anyone pinpoint in literature (other than the christian "bible") the first references made to the "Left Hand Path", in regards to "philosophy" or "magical" practices? Or, are we mostly getting the first taste of this word by a few creepy words in Mr. LaVey's lovely tomes?

Maybe I'm making too much out of this...
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#3732 - 01/31/08 03:10 AM Logic 101 [Re: Chandler]
Meq Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Chandler
"Ignorance is the cause of suffering" can be symbolized with logical connectives in the following way:


Erm, no it can't.

 Quote:

iI: Ignorance
iS: Suffering

Proposition: "If I then S"

"If S then I" DOES NOT FOLLOW.


Since when was "I is the cause of S" equivalent to "If I then S"?
"I is the cause of S" does not even IMPLY "If I then S".


Example:
A carrot is pretty ignorant. Does that make it suffer?

If we assume (purely for the sake of argument):
"I is the cause of S" -
does this logically imply that S, given I?

Not in any universe I know of.


However, "I is the (sole) cause of S" DOES IMPLY "If S then I".

The Buddha's formula was DIAGNOSTIC - the presence of S was used to diagnose the presence of I as the root cause.
So yes, "If S then I" is indeed what is implied.

 Quote:

It must hurt to be so illogical.


Please excuse the switch from logic to psychology:

pro·jec·tion [n] the tendency to ascribe to another person feelings, thoughts, or attitudes present in oneself


 Quote:
Ignorance can't be the ONLY cause of suffering. I imagine the Buddha had knowledge of fire, if he existed.

Perhaps he realised that one needed to be ignorant to burn oneself? \:D

Or more likely - the issue is more likely to be that "suffering" in Buddhist philosophy carries different connotations to the English word.
The original Pali word translated "suffering" is "dukkha", which instead carries connotations of "dissatifactoriness with life".
Buddha's point was that this form of suffering is caused by a form of "ignorance".

Or, if even we accept the wider definition of "suffering" - it has been empirically verified that subjects in deep meditation or hypnosis can develop the ability to 'turn off' pain/suffering in ANY form (physical or emotional).
Buddha seemed like a pretty deep meditator, so this may well have been his experience (whether a real or fictional person).

For such an adept, it is not much of a stretch to conceptualise the INABILITY to do this as - well - ignorance.

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#3740 - 02/01/08 08:29 AM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: daevid777]
Chandler Offline
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The first mention that I know of about a LHP as a "forbidden" road, was made by Blavatsky. But my reference is more "classic" (arcane) than that. I'm drawing from her roots in the Kabala.

Some will obviously view it as not only arcane, but archaic.

After a philosopher comes out with a radical view, society has a tendency to suffer it (that is, to experience it independently of intentionality) at birth by default. One has to actually fight against the Cartesian pre-reflective cogito to get rid of it: that annoying little Cartesian philosopher/apprentice inside that believes thinking somehow evidences your existence in some unique way, i.e. acts as a necessary and sufficient cause for it. 500 years ago, this proposition would have seemed absurd. Squirrels don't think. If they weren't conscious of their existence, why would they eat so strategically (or at all for that matter)?

LaVey is only regarded as an authority on the Left Hand Path at all because so few have dared to publish with regards to it (Black/Hyatt "Pacts with the Devil" will provide you with a better look. So will any authoritative book on Shamanism: try the Princeton guide to Shamanism, or Castaneda. Steer clear of everything else). LaVey's views are just good sense, when they are interpreted in a modest light, but not particularly identified with any organized tradition that I am aware of. That is not to say that LaVeyan is not fast in becoming an organized tradition. It certainly is.

Depending on your interpretation (of reality, as well as literature), the Left Hand Path either a) begins when you fail to achieve union with or abandon your Holy Guardian Angel prior to approaching the Abyss, at which time you will be cast back down to Malkuth, and become a restless earthbound sorcerer with too much power for his own wisdom to direct, or b) this moment of truth just proves that you have always been on the Left Hand Path, and does not mark a genuine failure. The difference between these two views, in my opinion, is the pertinence of free will to them. If we just "find out" whether or not we were on the Left Hand Path all along, is it something to worry about? Certainly not. And this was Crowley's view, I think, and mine.

Being on the left hand path is kind of like stepping off on the wrong (that is, the minority) foot on a march because you didn't jump to the same conclusions as the rest of the crowd. Its only misfortune may be in that it is against the grain or powers that be. The Left Hand Path is more epistemologically responsible, but less emotionally responsible or sympathetic. The Left Hand Path tends to take a more revolutionary effect, but is not usually appreciated during its time. The Left Hand Path actually takes a great deal of the world's Karma onto itself, and gets the job done better and faster than the Right Hand Path.

Both paths require wholesale stockpiled pyramidal warehouses of ignorance to be possible in the first place. Ignorance is the reciprocative ratio of omniscience quantified. If you're soft, you shouldn't be on either path. My recommendation has always been to come in for a cleaning once a year and don't use artificial whiteners.

You're a stick with it guy Dave. You've been more devoted to this site than I have. I didn't know if you would like it at all at first. If I had a business of any kind, I would hire you \:\)

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#3744 - 02/01/08 01:05 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: daevid777]
Morgan Offline
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Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 2956
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I have 2 books which are translated spellbooks from sumeria. Among the writing are spells to keep vampires types away.
Its not some cheezy new age shit, these books were translated from discovered tablets back in the 1920's.

The stuff is out there, if you want to look.

Morgan
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Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#3898 - 02/05/08 11:54 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: daevid777]
LUCIFERIFIC Offline
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Posts: 629
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: daevid777
Hello my sinister fellows,

I've heard many things of the "LHP", and read a great deal as well... These definitions don't always exactly coincide - so, I am making a request of you "friends", if you would be kind enough to explain what the Left Hand Path means to you.

With gratitude,

David.


In india there's Right Hand Tantrika and Left Hand tantrika.
Right Hand Tantrika is that spiritual shit where you meditate and hum and chant to try and raise your kundalini engergy with your mind.

Left Hand Tantrika is when you get a girl and bang her. It's the road less traveled and embraces a more earthy... human... physical approach to encountering the ''divine'' or whatever you what to call it.

I suppose the "Left Hand Path" maybe related to this concept in some way.

You may have already gotten your answer. If so this is probably redundant and useless.
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Lux Lucet Ex Orientis


~~352~~


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#17856 - 01/08/09 09:39 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: daevid777]
Fabiano Offline
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Registered: 09/06/08
Posts: 374
If it's so politely asked David, I can't refuse. \:D

So let's go:

All religions and philosophies agree that it’s natural for any man to look for happiness. They all say to propose a way to reach such “happiness”. This way is forcedly sustained by a vision. The vision of an ideal world. A world where all men would be Xians, or Muslims, or Satanists (sectarian view) or would be true RHP/LHP followers (open-minded view).

The difference between the LHP & the RHP stands in one unique thing:- the RHP followers adopt the idealist point of view. They believe in an ideal world which is based on peace, altruism, compassion, love, etc. The true RHP followers will cultivate them and discipline himself hoping that there are enough people acting as him for getting closer to his view of the ideal world. In addition, generally, the true RHP followers are promised to have a “place in heaven”
- The LHP follower adopts the realist point of view. He does not believe that this ideal world is possible. He just accepts the reality as it is and copes with it. There is war, it’s not new and it’s not finished! The world is a jungle with sheeps, wolfs, snakes, rabbits etc. And the LHP follower believes that he has more chance to be happy as a wolf or a snake than as a lamb or a rabbit.

So finally, is it possible it could be just a question of point of view according to you?
Could it be that this image reflects reality? : Happiness is at the top of a mountain and the mountain has two sides, a bright right one and a dark left one. There are many paths starting at the bottom of mountain, some in the dark, some in the light.

For sake of completeness I’ll mention those following no path at all. They’re declined in a variety of kinds. There are those who go from paths entries to path entries at the bottom of the mountain without being able to choose one. The lazy staying at the bottom because it’s easier to walk in the plain. The fundamentalists who spend more energy at hitting anybody they cross over urging him to go faster and to stay strictly on the middle of the path. The Ron Hubbard who build a brand new path with a very attractive entry. But the path is sinuous and flat and after 200 meters it ends on a trap. Without forgetting, last but not least, the “free stylers” who follow no path but seem to “smell” the happiness; they go straight forward and start to climb. It’s risky, some get lost, some others fall and are injured or even die. But there are some that excel in climbing even in the most difficult terrain.

There are a lot of questions that this image can illustrate. For instance what about the disabled? Should we help them? However, it would be off topic to discuss this example here. Please do not come back on it!. (I'll may be elaborate this mountain image in an new thread.)


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#17946 - 01/10/09 01:30 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
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It might feel natural, logical or correct to pursue happiness but I don't think it is a required, neither desired goal-objective. If you try to perceive things as beyond good and evil, you do at the same time have to perceive them beyond happiness and sadness. After all, if happiness is the ultimate goal in one's life, one is happiness' ultimate slave and the pursue of happiness becomes a pursue of idealism.

Both the RHP and LHP are goal-oriented, even if some goals apparently might lead nowhere.
Attainability of those goals and the "who controls" factor in it are decisive in what makes someone follow RHP or LHP goals and ultimately one of both paths. The problem with goals and the way we perceive them is linked to attainability. Once a goal isn't attainable it stops being a goal and becomes an ideal. Once it is an ideal, all attempts to reach that ideal are by definition RHP oriented actions. The controlling factor shifts from you to the ideal and you submit yourself to that very ideal.

Now, where does happiness fit in? One can say that reaching a goal brings happiness. Sometimes yes but a goal should not be pursued because of happiness but out of necessity. If the fulfillment of necessity at the same times brings happiness, great but it doesn't need to. There are certain goals one can pursue that do not necessarily bring happiness, that even might cause discomfort or pain but even with that, their necessity justifies all attempts to accomplishing that goal.

D.

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#17947 - 01/10/09 01:58 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Diavolo]
ceruleansteel Offline
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Are you just trying to play "devil's advocate"?

Because when I read this, I am left with a picture of an apathetic person who aspires to nothing but meeting basic needs for survival and has no real motivations/etc for anything but the very second in time they are living in.

How can you say that all ideals are RHP oriented? What if my unattainable goal is to see someone dead?

As for that, what say you on goals that ARE attainable? Does one become a sell-out for reaching them?

Certain goals one can pursue that do not bring happiness....why the hell would one pursue such a goal and what could that goal possibly be?

My goal is to be gored by a bull in Spain. My goal is to display the ultimate defeatest attitude.

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#17948 - 01/10/09 02:19 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: ceruleansteel]
Diavolo Offline
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Nope, I'm serious as can be.

It has nothing to do with being apathetic or not. It's not because a goal is attainable that it doesn't go deeper than getting your next plate of food. An ideal is not attainable, we don't need to argue about that. Do you feel a sell-out for getting a job you have in mind?

Do you think RHP and LHP are so easily divided that all it takes is a difference between good and bad? That all good acts are RHP and that killing is by definition a LHP act?

What could such a goal be that does not bring happiness? One that brings insight? Do you think every bit of insight brings joy?

D.

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#17949 - 01/10/09 05:02 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Diavolo]
ceruleansteel Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Diavolo

Do you think RHP and LHP are so easily divided that all it takes is a difference between good and bad?



It's not that so much as I'm trying to picture the existance you are painting and I am thinking that I have GOT to be misunderstanding what you are describing....

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#17953 - 01/10/09 06:07 PM LHP [Re: ceruleansteel]
Diavolo Offline
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I assume you are misunderstanding it indeed.

Judging acts in itself is trivial and can't be considered as either RHP or LHP. An act is just the transition between necessity and goal. So murder, theft or giving cookies to the poor are no indication at all. When I talk about goal, I do not talk about an ultimate destination or a greater plan. I do talk about every attainable necessity you want/need to fulfill.

D.

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#17956 - 01/10/09 06:44 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
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I never said something else, but it's good to mention the risk of running after ideals.
But I think many fall in the trap of conceiving happiness as a kind of special state, an absence of inconvenient. I suspect that this is a "psychological nostalgy" of when we were in our mother's womb. It's the paradise : never cold nor to hot, never hungry nor thirsty, no effort to do...
But it's forgetting that there you cannot know smell of a good wine, the pleasure of sex, or the adrenaline provided by extreme sports. So, when the life is rude, a lot become nostalgic...

I think it's Dan who said "Satanism is a journey, not a destination". It's not specific to LHP, I heard the same from a Zen master. But you can't realise that when you're starting at the bottom of the mountain. It's on the way, when you reach some altitude that you realise that "the path has no end" or at least that happiness is not exactly what you thought it to be when you started the path.

I also read the answer of ceruleansteel; may be using dreams instead of ideal could bring some light. I can understand that a life without any dream can appear quite sad. To me a dream is a goal without an action plan. It's only by stopping to dream about it and start concretely think about that you can estimate if your goal is attainable or not.

Finally, what do you thisnk about this ideal : "Live your life to the fullest" ?

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#17957 - 01/10/09 06:58 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Fabiano]
Jake999 Offline
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I personally live my life to self satisfaction.

"The fullest" is at best a movable target... unachievable, but a lofty "goal." There will always be things that you want to attain or obtain, but nothing REALLY goes to "happiness" as a goal. The best one can ever hope to achieve, to my mind, is self satisfaction.

I COULD still be at work and making money for other people, along the line making a little extra for myself. But it's much more satisfying to my sense of self that I now do what I want to do, not dependent upon being paid by some "boss," other than myself. I have my own. I'm satisfied that I am, for all intent and purpose, the boss. Of course, like all others, I have to pay my taxes and regard the obligations of citizenry that all must, if one is active in one's community and culture, but I choose how much immersion I would subject myself to.

So, am I "happy?" I can't say that I'm "UNHAPPY," rather that I am currently satisfied. I may choose to engage in some commercial enterprise at some future time, but the key is that it would be a time and for a reason of my own choosing. That's the benefit of relative independence. I'm satisfied to be comfortable in my own skin and my own surroundings.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#17958 - 01/10/09 07:25 PM Re: LHP [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
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Posts: 374
Fully agreed!

You can find this on the RHP in "do not judge because you'll be judged by the emasure you judged others" or in that fact that "only God can judge because he's the only one being able to read in man's heart (i.e. knowing the full context)". Also there're many Warriors on the RHP. The Bhagavad-Gîtâ is the story of a battle with Krishna leading one camp...

On the LHP, if you start imagining your ideal world with the idea that a LHP follower should do evil things, you quickly realise it's not sustainaible. It leads to hell (as basic Xians see Statanists)! So, it's may be harder to fall in the ideal world trap.

Last thought :
One can imagine the ideal RHP world: where all people take care of other's needs. They look for giving and not for receiving, etc. What a paradise!

But it sucks!

What happen to rabbits in a world where there are no wolfs? They multiply! It's even a order of God in the Bible and we know RHP are mostly against natality control. Or they control natality or they start to starve. In both cases the ideal world collapse.

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#17959 - 01/10/09 07:38 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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I agree, most think that because one talks about a path that this very path does need to have a starting point and an end. That's not true. We do have a starting point and an end but the path hasn't. The end is something one cannot reach, no matter how many cultures talk about enlightenment. When you set an ideal, you set an artificial end, which simply can never be reached.

I personally don't find dreams very attractive examples. Dreams and hope are what the weak use to escape reality. A goal implies direction and action. Dreams feel kinda stagnant.

Live your life to the fullest is indeed an ideal and the more you define your, the more idealistic it becomes. It's semantics but if you prefer to have a non-idealist slogan to life, I'd say; "do what you need to do" is telling it all.

D.

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#17960 - 01/10/09 07:41 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Jake999]
Fabiano Offline
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Exactly! "to the fullest" can be viewed as an ideal. Something alike a James Bond who never fails. But the LHP follower is realist, he knows that "to the fullest" should be understood as "as the fullest as you can". As long as I know an ideal is an ideal and I don't believe it can become real, it can be useful, as a model. I know that sometimes I'll fail at reaching some of my goals but at least I try! I have not preconception or tabou that would prevent me to try it...

To me, living my life to the fullest also stands in the "Carpe Diem". A matter of fully living each instant of life (that's the ideal, off course!)

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#17961 - 01/10/09 08:45 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
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Hum, dream is really a synonym of ideal in your dictionary.

May be this expression reflect more my conception of dream : "Don't dream your life, live your dreams".

Looking for a translation of my "dream" in your dictionnary, I thought to "big desire".

This enabled me to see the light you bring : Dreams cause desire and if the dream is unatainable it will cause suffering.

But here is a little true story : A guy was dreaming about having a Ferrari. But He wasn't rich... He was a mecanician. He really desired this dream car.
Now he realised his dream. He bought an ancestor for which he pays few taxes and insurance. He drives it just for fun in the summer.

So, are dreams always useless ?

do what you need to do... for what ? For just surviving or for living to the fullest?

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#17964 - 01/10/09 09:48 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Fabiano]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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"living life to the fullest"

This statement is and always has been nonsense. The fullest of what? Exactly where is the marker of 'fullest' and why can't we go beyond it?

Am I using my computer to the fullest right now? When I drink this coffee, am I really enjoying it 'to the fullest'?

Maybe I don't feel like living to the fullest right now. Maybe I had a hard day and only want to live life to the second fullest tonight. Why the imperative?

The worst, though, is that 'fullest' isn't even a real word. Sure it's in a few dictionaries now (probably because of that stupid catch phrase), but shouldn't it be 'most full'?




ps - Is a mechanician someone that can transform a Honda into an Audi with a wave of his hand and an incantation?
_________________________
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#17965 - 01/10/09 11:01 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Dan_Dread]
Jake999 Offline
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 2230
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread


ps - Is a mechanician someone that can transform a Honda into an Audi with a wave of his hand and an incantation?


Well, if he could do that, a REAL mechanician would turn that little Honda into a Lincoln Town Car. I swung my magic wand (and a checkbook) over the desk of a man one day and POOF... there it was. Master mechanician I am.
_________________________
Bury your dead, pick up your weapon and soldier on.


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#17970 - 01/11/09 04:35 AM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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The Ferrari example is a typical one. I knew a guy that really desired a specific car, so he worked for years saving all the cash he could to have that dream car. After a couple years of denying himself everything but the essentials and work work work, he finally could buy it. Oh boy he was happy.... for about a week or two. Even if you'd look at it logically, how much enduring is worth how much happiness?

I don't get this material adoration. If I make the sum of my life, is it really my car, my toaster and my wardrobe? Or maybe that I built a house, climbed a mountain, beat a guy to shit, killed, gutted and cooked my own food, ran 15 miles in that many minutes, fucked like a pornstar.... At what point does possession become more important than experience? At what point does a man equal what he has instead of what he does?

D.

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#17974 - 01/11/09 07:46 AM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
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There is a difference between the man you describe, who is placing the car at the top of his priority and is stupid enough for not realising that it will cost him more than he'll get back and my mechanician who, from a dream, managed to build an attainable goal. His Ferrary was a little one and was 25 or 30 years old.

I suspect the first guy to consider the Ferrari as a symbol of success. He hard worked for getting the symbol, may be confusing the symol with what it represents. He did it very probably for just exhibing the symbol in front of the other and be able to say "I made it". And probably he'll see some envy in other's eyes... But at the end, he has a bitter taste in the mouth because he feels this is not success.
Brief, in two words, typical self-delusion.

On the other hand, the mechanician wanted the Ferrari because he loves beautifull cars. Even if he gets some satisfaction from the looking the other staring at his car, it's not his goal. He was realist and find a way to make his passion affordable.

The first guy looks for possessions (because they symbolyse success) the second one is looking for making an experience : driving a "dream car".

To me, the last guy lives his life to the fullest, the first one try to convince himself and the others that it's the case.


Edited by Fabiano (01/11/09 07:50 AM)

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#17975 - 01/11/09 09:04 AM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Dan_Dread]
Fabiano Offline
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This is an ideal, and in your very real world, I can understand it's a non sense.

It's not imperative, I take it just as a good advise.
What about the people who live their life as a succession of identical days Métro-boulot-dodo?

I know about hard days. I was not saying anything else when I was revendication my right for lazyness. Laziness is not really what will bring me closer to any ideal but I stay indulgent and realist with it...

Regarding the fullest vs most full, I leave the native speakers to debate on it \:D

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#17979 - 01/11/09 12:04 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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I was writing a reply for this but then I was thinking why the fuck am I debating dreams and Ferrari?

I just don't like dreams when goals are so much better to describe it. It's the same reason why I don't call psychological tricks lesser magick. After all, I do also go to a doctor and not a shaman.

D.

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#17983 - 01/11/09 01:20 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Dan_Dread]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
"living life to the fullest"

This statement is and always has been nonsense. The fullest of what? Exactly where is the marker of 'fullest' and why can't we go beyond it?


I believe each person has to set that marker for themselves. What one may deem as living their life to the fullest may not be the same as another person's idea of it. There really isn't a universal definition for living your life to the fullest.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#17985 - 01/11/09 02:19 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Dan_Dread Offline
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I would say not only is there no 'universal' definition;there is no subjective definition either. This is really just another phrase people use with no real meaning behind it. A lot in language is just pulp and fluff.
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#18031 - 01/12/09 06:27 AM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Diavolo]
Fabiano Offline
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We were debating Dreams and Ferrari to know if dreams are "usefull" somehow.

When I see Dan in an other thread saying

 Originally Posted By: Dan
If every person in the military just dropped their gun, the state would crumble post haste. Society would be free to function as it should, in a state of meritocracy where the ones that cant cut it don't survive.
I'm wondering to which extend it is not a dream or an ideal. The vision of an ideal anarchist society.

A a little bit further

 Originally Posted By: Dan


Quote:

"If" is the realm of children. I live in the real world.


Oh I don't know about that. Without 'if' we would never have anything new. We would still be living in trees and eating insects.


That's in this sense that I think Dreams can be usefull....

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#18035 - 01/12/09 09:21 AM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Fabiano]
Diavolo Offline
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Dreams is this romantic cock-up concept used in advertising to convince you that the car that costs 25% more than you really have and has 50% more functions than you really need, is THE thing you must have to fulfill your depressing life so you can live happily ever after.
The last guy that had a dream got shot in public and those that held hands to fulfill their global dreams either died or became entrepreneurs that snorted coke, dressed in business suits and realized goals are what it is all about.

I don't like dreams, as one might suspect.

D.

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#18258 - 01/15/09 04:52 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Diavolo]
Diavolo Offline
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Regarding idealism, I read this fairly interesting perception upon it. It might explain better why I see all idealism as RHP obstacles.

 Quote:
God did not die. He was, and still is, simply transferred. He, God, is nothing more than the recent belief by humanity in one perfect way; and the search, the certainty, the arrogance which encompasses the world-view of each and every individual still unconsciously pining for God in his old form continues unabated today with the individual projecting the notion of God onto/into other facets of the Matrix.
Individuals put their faith in Science, in the Wisdom of others, in the idea of “Progress“, “Truth“, or “Facts“, “Democracy“, “Peace” or “the Future” and strive to arrange the world just so in a unique and individual schemata that is collectively united by humanities mass desire for a replica of the singular perfection of the God that was.
Because of this reasoning that humanity is unconsciously mourning the loss of the reign of God as a totalitarian dictator that told them exactly what to do, when to do it and why and is trying to replace that Apex by projecting that same singular will [and it is irrelevant whether the new form is so-called “adversarial” or “rebellious” against God / this means nothing.] onto things - the criticisms/‘corrections’ leveled at any Form displayed by THEM are treated in this greater context as the trivial concerns by another human being to arrange the world according to their unconscious ethos of the Singular psychosis.

Copyrighted to THEM


D.

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#20355 - 02/14/09 06:03 AM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: daevid777]
Zoid Offline
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Posts: 109
Loc: USA - New Jersey
 Originally Posted By: daevid777
I've heard many things of the "LHP", and read a great deal as well... These definitions don't always exactly coincide - so, I am making a request of you "friends", if you would be kind enough to explain what the Left Hand Path means to you.


You wrote this over a year ago, David, but I find myself wanting to answer it.

In my view the Left Hand Path begins with amorality, the rejection of Superego, the denial of a moral dimension to the objective universe.

From that position, the questions that matter become:

1. What do I want?
2. What do I fear?
3. How do I get what I want?
4. How do I avoid what I fear?

With those questions clarified as the ones that matter, what remains is answering them, and re-answering, perpetually, from now until death - and taking ruthless action in accord with the answers.

Everything else I have posted to this message board has been conceived in the context of what I have now written in response to your query, David. What do I want and fear? That is Heart. How do I get what I want and avoid what I fear? That is Mind and Will.

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#20356 - 02/14/09 06:48 AM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Zoid]
ta2zz Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
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Loc: Connecticut

One can choose to avoid that which he doesn't understand or fears... One can instead overcome their fear and face it head on... One is the path of the strong, the other?

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#20365 - 02/14/09 12:17 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: ta2zz]
Zoid Offline
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Loc: USA - New Jersey
 Originally Posted By: ta2zz

One can choose to avoid that which he doesn't understand or fears... One can instead overcome their fear and face it head on... One is the path of the strong, the other?


You're talking about the kind of fear that gets exaggerated in the mind, such as talking in front of a group, or going up in an airplane. I'm talking about fear of serious dangers such as going to jail, dying of cancer, or getting shot in the head. The first kind of fear is misguided and the Satanist overcomes it. The second kind of fear isn't at all misguided and the Satanist incorporates it into the framework of prudence.

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#20385 - 02/14/09 03:57 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Zoid]
Morgan Offline
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"such as talking in front of a group, or going up in an airplane"

Theses are kinda well founded. Some people are afraid of being laughed at, and try to avoid situations whereby they are uncomforable. As for planes, well, planes do crash.


"I'm talking about fear of serious dangers such as going to jail, dying of cancer, or getting shot in the head."

In regards to jail, if your dumb enough to get caught, maybe you deserve to go. You did an act, you take responsibility for it.
The only fear is not one of going, but of being gang raped..

Dying of Cancer is an unreasonable fear. You can die at anytime getting hit by a bus. The fear of dying of cancer is ridiculus and misguided.

Getting shot in the head.
2 ways to go...
innocent or not
innocent -- wrong place, wrong time.
not innocent -- well, it might be well deserved.
and as for getting shot in the head, the fear shouldn't be dying, it should be living with the damage that one bullet could do.

Those 3 things are unfounded and pointless to think about. Its not a matter of prudence, its a matter of pointless worry.

If you can't control what happens and you have no affect on it, why worry?

That worry you speak about is tied into needless fear.

Most Satanists are too busy living to have time to worry about needless fears.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#20442 - 02/15/09 08:56 AM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Morgan]
Zoid Offline
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Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 109
Loc: USA - New Jersey
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
"such as talking in front of a group, or going up in an airplane"

Theses are kinda well founded. Some people are afraid of being laughed at, and try to avoid situations whereby they are uncomforable.


If Satanist X has a goal and the means to achieve it, with the only downside being the need to speak in public and the fear thereof, then I would admire Satanist X far more for overcoming the fear than for succumbing to it.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan

As for planes, well, planes do crash.


Far less often, statistically, than automobiles. Here again, if Satanist X has a goal and the means to achieve it, with the only downside being the need to fly in an airplane and the fear thereof, then I would admire Satanist X far more for overcoming the fear than for succumbing to it.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan

In regards to jail, if your dumb enough to get caught, maybe you deserve to go.


Agreed.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan

You did an act, you take responsibility for it.
The only fear is not one of going, but of being gang raped..


Agreed. This thought process led me to decide against criminality as a career path. There is only one reason I don't engage in any kind of criminality, and that is fear of jail. If I didn't fear jail, I would engage in criminality, since the ratio of economic gain to labor hours expended is more favorable than for honest work.


 Originally Posted By: Morgan

Dying of Cancer is an unreasonable fear. You can die at anytime getting hit by a bus. The fear of dying of cancer is ridiculus and misguided.


Do you affirm, then, the wisdom of smoking cigarettes if one enjoys doing so? I would smoke cigarettes if I didn't fear cancer - and also emphysema.


 Originally Posted By: Morgan

Getting shot in the head.
2 ways to go...
innocent or not
innocent -- wrong place, wrong time.


And pointless to concern oneself about, unless bullets are flying right here, right now. I believe you agree.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan

not innocent -- well, it might be well deserved.


It interests me how often this question of whether something is deserved of not gets brought up. I personally don't care at all what I deserve or don't deserve. I care only about what I want, and getting it - and what I fear, and avoiding it.

 Originally Posted By: Morgan

and as for getting shot in the head, the fear shouldn't be dying...


Do you deny the validity of the instinct for self-preservation?

 Originally Posted By: Morgan

...it should be living with the damage that one bullet could do.


Such damage would certainly be something to fear.

Let me clarify that in my opinion no fear is valid unless there is a realistic possibility of encountering the danger here and now or as the practical result of what one is doing here and now. I'm not talking about working oneself into a frenzy about phantasms.

I decided against embarking on a path of violent activity for money, such as becoming a mercenary or participating in organized crime, because I fear getting shot or maybe tortured.

If prudence, cunning, realism, and practicality had all pointed me in the direction of serious illegality, I would have gone in that direction, but the opposite was the case. I'm not talking about waking up terrified to step outside onto the street because maybe someone will shoot me because, hell, it happens to be Friday the 13th. I'm talking about career planning.

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#20468 - 02/15/09 03:47 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Zoid]
Morgan Offline
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Registered: 08/29/07
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Overcoming a fear is better than letting it ruin your life.

3 planes crashes in about a month, has to make you think about it.

Ahh, the smoking issue. Well, my greatgrandfather smoked and lived to 93. Of the marx's brothers (someone brought up in a differnt post), the smoker lived the longest. I smoke when I feel like it. I pick it up and put it down. I think when a Satanist allows something to become a habit/crutch/need then its a weakness. Besides, you can be all ass healthy and just something mutates thus you have it, a bunch of cells out of control working their hardest to kill you.

"It interests me how often this question of whether something is deserved of not gets brought up. I personally don't care at all what I deserve or don't deserve. I care only about what I want, and getting it - and what I fear, and avoiding it."

I'll explain it in a different way, then you might understand me better. If your a dumbass and do something stupid, you deserve what you get. You made a choice and you are responsible for the results.

As for self-preservation, if you are aware of the given situation you are in, you should know what to do to survive it.
If you dont know, then maybe the gene pool is better off without you.

"I'm talking about career planning"
Fuck, thats simple. Find your Passion, what you love, what you are good at, and DO THAT!!!

Fear has no place in career planning. Hell, I'm even considering joining the military at this point to do something more.

If anything, Fear your future regret.

Morgan
_________________________
Courage Conquering Fear
Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Don't Like What I Say, Kiss My Ass



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#20486 - 02/15/09 06:05 PM Re: "Left Hand Path" [Re: Morgan]
Zoid Offline
member


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 109
Loc: USA - New Jersey
 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Fuck, thats simple. Find your Passion, what you love, what you are good at, and DO THAT!!!

Fear has no place in career planning. Hell, I'm even considering joining the military at this point to do something more.

If anything, Fear your future regret.


There's much in what you say above, and I am giving it some thought. Unfortunately, the only money-making activity I have ever done, which I both loved and was good at, was theft. \:\)

If only I could find a way to make a living at posting on message boards! \:\)

Meanwhile, I go on earning my $100K doing something I'm good at and which puts me to sleep. Yet I continue to try to solve the Rubik's Cube of career planning. Your words above are echoing loudly across my mental landscape.

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