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#40495 - 07/19/10 03:34 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: Diavolo]
TheInsane Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
First off I have decided to create a thread here where I explain where I come from in regards to religion, philosophy and Satanism. A lot of people seem to already think they know what kind of beliefs I hold. I realize I haven’t actually gotten into this at all since I became active here. So I will create a new thread about this explaining my own standpoints on certain issues. Might be tomorrow or the day after I’m not sure.

Morgan

I am so sorry about not answering your questions. I must have missed your post. My apologies.

 Quote:
Yes, Satanism, devil worshiping, and the Yesdiz's all existed before Anton codified it into one simple book.

So what? Does that mean we should all be reverse Xitian's? . . .
. . .

As previously mentioned and suggested. Instead of saying these 2 guys names, how about you explain the impact they had on you. What their writing said to you verses what ASL writing said to you. Explain why you feel so strongly about them. . .
. . . I look forward to your essay on those two gentlemen and the affect they had on your satanic development to start with. . .

The main thing with this thread was how some denied any existence of Satanism pre-LaVey. It was never about the impact that anyone had on me personally. It was a discussion about whether Satanism existed as a codified and coherent religion before LaVey. My main influences tend to come from eastern thought and when its not it’s from thinkers who share things with these wise men (like Heraclitus and Nietzsche).
I have never stated anyone should be reverse Christian. Where did you get that from?
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Also please give examples of these scholarly works on Satanism that you stated you are reading.

The main work, important for this discussion, is “mörkrets apostlar” by Per Faxneld. I am unsure if it has been translated though. Then there is of course James R. Lewis who I know some of you despise but I enjoy his stuff. Kenneth Granholm and Fredrik Gregorius have also produced some good stuff in relation to Satanism. And then of course Stephen Flowers whom I have a love/hate relationship to.

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You state that the CoS should produce important writings for newbies, should be more of a movement, and not so much of a joke.
Why? Are you a member of the CoS? Most people here are not and for various reasons really don't care about the current CoS.

No not for newbies, they already have that. What I want is more academic like studies of Satanism from actual Satanists. I want more advanced material. I want this because I’d like to see something happen with the movement, some progress. As it is now its nothing as a religion or a philosophy.
 Quote:

If you want something more in Satanism, or think it should say something more, then just fucking write it already instead of complaining about what other people should be doing.

I have a degree in religion and philosophy and have written a masters essay on the Temple of Set. Other things include a study on Thelema and a comparison between the Temple of Set and the Church of Satan in regards to philosophical standpoints. They are available for anyone to read through my university. If anyone is interested you can send me a PM. Although they are written in my native language. This is what I have done for Satanism (or however you would put it) like Draculesti asked me about.
 Quote:

Its not a matter of your opinions or words, its a matter of you backing them up and paying attention to stuff that is actually written on the board as Dimitri pointed out.

When did I not back up my claims?
6Satan6Archist6
All valid points even if I don’t agree with them. If you see no need for Satanism to evolve then that’s great for you. I myself like to see philosophies gain greater depth and more knowledge with time. Nothing is timeless.

Dan_Dread
 Quote:

Again, a complete ignorance of what autotheism means in a Satanic context being shown here. You should really go read TSB before you post here again. . .

. . .Holy shit you don't get it at all. Have you even read the Satanic Bible?

Several times thank you. Just because I don’t agree with you doesn’t mean I don’t know what your views on life are.
My explanation of this deserves another thread though. I am perfectly aware that LaVeyan Satanists often already regard themselves as gods (key word is “already”). I am of the opinion that the strife for self-deification is good but to already consider yourself a supreme being often makes you more of an airhead in the end.
 Quote:

It's funny that you should be trying to scold me for using language in a non-collectivist way, when in reality the opposite is true. When I talk about Satanism, those I am talking to know what the fuck I am on about. With you, the more you talk the less sense you make. You express complete ignorance of basic Satanic bedock concepts like autotheism, yet have no problem pretending you know what you are talking about. Your version of Satanism seems to be an amorphous blob of whatever you feel like at the moment. What's the point?

I have never explained my Satanism here on the 600 club boards so how you can understand it as an “amorphous blob” is beyond me. My problem with you wasn’t that you define Satanism like LaVey did but that you denied any existence of Satanism pre-LaVey. This is only true if you choose to revision the past with a definition someone makes several years later. I never said Anton LaVeys Satanism wasn’t Satanism.

Diavolo

Great posts. Thanks!

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#40497 - 07/19/10 03:51 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: TheInsane]
Diavolo Offline
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 Originally Posted By: TheInsane

The main work, important for this discussion, is “mörkrets apostlar” by Per Faxneld. I am unsure if it has been translated though.


I don't know if the book is available in English, I never encountered it but maybe this part of it might add some information upon the subject.

A Luciferian Pamplet by Per Faxneld

D.

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#40500 - 07/19/10 04:09 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Originally Posted By: TheInsane

I am of the opinion that the strife for self-deification is good but to already consider yourself a supreme being often makes you more of an airhead in the end.

I still can't help but think, based on your choice of words throughout this thread, that you really don't understand the idea of autodeification.

The idea isn't to become more than human, or become anything at all. Autodeification isn't a goal,nor a path; but a realization.

All god concepts come from our own brains. All dictates of reality are apprehended and assembled within our own brain. All that we perceive, think, feel, and experience all takes place within our own brain. All of this is our subjective universe. Most peoples subjective universes are given over to external authorities. Gods, governments, ideologies. Autotheism isn't assuming godhead over anything outside of the SU, rather it is seizing control and installing ones self as ultimate authority over ones own SU.

Once this is done, one is free to hack away the bullshit in some areas and expand and nourish others until your SU is an effective operator for getting things done in the Objective Universe. This is Satanism 101.
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#40503 - 07/19/10 04:28 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: TheInsane]
Dimitri Offline
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Registered: 07/13/08
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 Quote:
No not for newbies, they already have that. What I want is more academic like studies of Satanism from actual Satanists. I want more advanced material. I want this because I’d like to see something happen with the movement, some progress. As it is now its nothing as a religion or a philosophy.

Academic recources/studies on Satanism from actual Satanists?
Perhaps You need a little direction towards old-members Amina and ole-wolf here. While I think their work is nothing more then archiving past events and cases (such as the Satanic panic) and barely adds anything towards the philosophy but only rehearses and rewording of known ideas within, they may provide that little something you seek. http://www.smwane.dk/
Other discussions and references they held high in regard (sigh) are to be found somewhere in the different topics at the books-littrature section of the forum. It's easier to make a search with their names here on the board and look into a few of their posts.

I find it funny to hear a search for academic research when it comes to religions and philosophies. From the few academic history lessons I once attended they do nothing more but give indications what common ideas were, a small introduction towards the differences within, and perhaps discuss a little art. Only facts are given which in the end may sound nice to bluff, but it is to be noticed that despite these lessons, essays and years of study most will truly fail since they lack the EXPERIENCE. A little something I blame on the people who think they know by just reading or claimed making academic recources.

 Quote:
I have a degree in religion and philosophy and have written a masters essay on the Temple of Set. Other things include a study on Thelema and a comparison between the Temple of Set and the Church of Satan in regards to philosophical standpoints. They are available for anyone to read through my university. If anyone is interested you can send me a PM. Although they are written in my native language. This is what I have done for Satanism (or however you would put it) like Draculesti asked me about.

Congratulations with your degree, I hope you at least do the necessary work to keep it up..
On the other hand; big deal you made a masters essay. I wouldn't care for less. If it helped you to understand the better, but to be an actual contributon? As far as I read it in this response you only rehearsed known facts and presented it towards a jury. Perhaps the information is now a little more condensed and easier to find, but anyone with some spare time and motivation could have done the same.



Edited by Dimitri (07/19/10 04:52 PM)
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#40504 - 07/19/10 04:33 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: Dan_Dread]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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 Originally Posted By: TheInsane

I want more advanced material. I want this because I’d like to see something happen with the movement, some progress. As it is now its nothing as a religion or a philosophy.

I realize this was directed to Morgan and not myself, but I felt this needed addressing.

For there to be a movement, there must first be a rally point. There must be 'outside in' direction. For there to be 'change' to Satanism there must be an authoritative consensus. In my understanding of Satanism this is nonsensical.

Movements are necessarily top down power structures, or they don't 'move'. Satanism is a bottom up power structure, as each is an authority unto himself. There is no looking to higher sources for guidance beyond the precepts of Satanism itself, which are quite malleable and adaptable from person to person.

If each is his own leader, who will be following? Certainly not Satanists themselves. Who then, will be part of this movement?

Really, I think 'this'(600c) is about the best you can expect. A loose cabal of somewhat like minds that still disagree about a lot of things. A Satanic movement is like a herd of cats. Doomed to failure.
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#40507 - 07/19/10 04:48 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: Dan_Dread]
TheInsane Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
We differ in thought here obviously. My view is more connected to that of Nietzsches "Übermensch":

 Quote:
ZARATHUSTRA, HOWEVER, LOOKED at the people and wondered. Then he spake thus: Man is a rope stretched between the animal and the Superman—a rope over an abyss. A dangerous crossing, a dangerous wayfaring, a dangerous looking-back, a dangerous trembling and halting. What is great in man is that he is a bridge and not a goal: what is lovable in man is that he is an over-going and a down-going.


For me then, obviously, becoming is of essential importance and I actually think you cant do anything but become. I have my whole thought on cosmology based on this (not surprising when I also happen to love Nietzsche and Heraclitus) \:\)

 Originally Posted By: Diavolo
 Originally Posted By: TheInsane

The main work, important for this discussion, is “mörkrets apostlar” by Per Faxneld. I am unsure if it has been translated though.


I don't know if the book is available in English, I never encountered it but maybe this part of it might add some information upon the subject.

A Luciferian Pamplet by Per Faxneld

D.


I hadnt actually read that one. Thanks for the link. The book is much more in depth though (of course since its a book :)).

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#40509 - 07/19/10 05:12 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: TheInsane]
TheInsane Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
Dimitri:

I am very familiar with Ole Wolf and Amina (although I didnt realize she (?) was a member here. Thanks anyway \:\)

Alot of academic work is of course rehash but it is also interpretation, inspiration and new perspectives. Deleutzes work on Nietzsches philoaophy is a prime example. I hav read Nietzsche but a new dimention opened up to me after reading Deleutzes interpretation of his philosophy.

 Quote:

Congratulations with your degree, I hope you at least do the necessary work to keep it up..
On the other hand; big deal you made a masters essay. I wouldn't care for less. If it helped you to understand the better, but to be an actual contributon? As far as I read it in this response you only rehearsed known facts and presented it towards a jury. Perhaps the information is now a little more condensed and easier to find, but anyone with some spare time and motivation could have done the same.


Well, thats you opinion and you have every right to it. But if you claim a masters essay is something you can do good with just some spare time and motivation makes me think youve never done one. Im not saying I made a huge difference in the Satanic community (which I believe to exist) but at least I added something to it that I think is of good quality (the same cannot unfortunately be said about my work on Thelema which did not turn out as I would have liked at all).

Dan_Dread:

I think there are prominent ideas in Satanism that act as a centre of a movement. There is some core even if its not as strong as in other movements. In the amost 15 years I have followed Satanism I have been able to see a few different waves so to speak. Although not all of them related to LaVeyan Satanism.

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#40513 - 07/19/10 05:44 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: TheInsane]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
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 Quote:

Dan_Dread:

I think there are prominent ideas in Satanism that act as a centre of a movement. There is some core even if its not as strong as in other movements. In the amost 15 years I have followed Satanism I have been able to see a few different waves so to speak. Although not all of them related to LaVeyan Satanism.

The most prominent commonality is the absence of top down power structure in favour of self empowerment. If you try to instate a top down power structure you are by definition doing something else. Can you offer a coherent explanation as to how you think Satanism as a movement could work? What exactly, would be the shared goals? How would you get any number of individual Satanists to adopt these goals?
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#40541 - 07/20/10 11:24 AM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: Dan_Dread]
TheInsane Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
The most prominent commonality is the absence of top down power structure in favour of self empowerment. If you try to instate a top down power structure you are by definition doing something else. Can you offer a coherent explanation as to how you think Satanism as a movement could work? What exactly, would be the shared goals? How would you get any number of individual Satanists to adopt these goals?


This is one of those complex thing we have to deal with in a philosophy that claims to be for non-joiners and for wolves (even though wolves travel in flocks of course ;\) ). The same reasoning can be made for organizations. Why do Satanic organizations even exist? And some run orgs and claims Satanists are non-joiners and still offer memberships.

I think a movement can be seen as an organization where likeminded people get together (willingly or "naturally") to share experiences and learn from each other. “A school of experiences” if that makes any sense. This is why people in general get drawn to other people with a similar outlook on life. And indeed, this forum is one expression of that (even if it’s more loose than most).

In an organizational form I think the Temple of Set is a good example. They are highly individually centered. The becoming of the individual - self-deification, perfection of the mind/psyche etc. But they deem it easier or more efficient to do this in a group setting where you can share your experiences with other and get advice and warnings about what do and what to not do.

I do feel, and this might create some controversy, that a sense of belonging is a factor as well. Humans are after all herd animals and to some degree most of us has to be around other people like us to feel good. Not to say they have to be yes-men and agree on everything but we all enjoy the company of others and most of us feel bad if we for a long time go without human interaction.

So while Satanism doesn’t necessarily have a leader to follow I feel there are “Satanic currents” or “Satanic waves” running through the religion from time to time that in some way creates a indistinct movement of sorts. Indistinct in that you aren’t always able to distinguish where it came from but just like a wave in the ocean it appears because of streams and continues either until it reaches the shore or until it fades out into the stillness of the water again.

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#40553 - 07/20/10 04:31 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: TheInsane]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Originally Posted By: theinsane


This is one of those complex thing we have to deal with in a philosophy that claims to be for non-joiners and for wolves (even though wolves travel in flocks of course ;\) )

Wolves travel in packs. The only time you might find a wolf in a flock is if it's hungry ;\)

 Quote:

Why do Satanic organizations even exist? And some run orgs and claims Satanists are non-joiners and still offer memberships.

An organization is not the same thing as a movement. But that aside, if you look closely at the composition of most 'Satanic' groups you will find mostly sheep looking for somewhere to belong rather than any sort of cabal of like minds. I can't think of any organizations full of Satanists. Can you?
 Quote:

I think a movement can be seen as an organization where likeminded people get together (willingly or "naturally") to share experiences and learn from each other.

That isn't the definition of movement though. Getting together and chatting about common interests is not the same as rallying around a cause and trying to affect change. You really need to make a stretch to use the word movement at all, if that is how you are defining it.
 Quote:

n an organizational form I think the Temple of Set is a good example.

Have you read the book of coming forth by night? Me either..but the general premise is that Set is real, out there, and alive on some level. A shared rally point, just like any other deity is to any other religion. I don't think comparing that org to Satanism is fair in this context. We don't have a shared belief in a cosmic deity.
 Quote:

So while Satanism doesn’t necessarily have a leader to follow I feel there are “Satanic currents” or “Satanic waves” running through the religion from time to time that in some way creates a indistinct movement of sorts.

You'll excuse me if I point out this as mumbo jumbo. What the hell is a satanic wave? Do I need a surf board?

In all of that you didn't answer my questions. What exactly would the central rallying point be for this 'movement'? How would you get anyone to agree with your talking points?

I have seen this tired 'satanic movement' shtick done again and again and again by various types of joiners over the years, types fond of using the word US and WE when they really have no business doing so. I have never seen a coherent argument for why a Satanic movement should exist or how exactly it would function. Until that happens I will continue to call bullshit on that claim.
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#40561 - 07/20/10 05:29 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: Dan_Dread]
TheInsane Offline
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Dan_dread:

 Quote:
An organization is not the same thing as a movement. But that aside, if you look closely at the composition of most 'Satanic' groups you will find mostly sheep looking for somewhere to belong rather than any sort of cabal of like minds. I can't think of any organizations full of Satanists. Can you?


I meant to compare the two and not say they were the same thing.

To answer you question; No! \:\)

 Quote:
That isn't the definition of movement though. Getting together and chatting about common interests is not the same as rallying around a cause and trying to affect change. You really need to make a stretch to use the word movement at all, if that is how you are defining it. . .

. . .In all of that you didn't answer my questions. What exactly would the central rallying point be for this 'movement'? How would you get anyone to agree with your talking points?


I dont think I would ever put it as "chatting about common interests" but more like a school of sorts. A place to learn new things that might be adaptable in ones own strife for wisdom (or self-deification if you will). In the Temple of Sets case the strife to Xeper and to remanifest as a god (although as I said before I do not agree with their fundamental philosophy).

But yeah a central rallying point to bring change on a big scale like a political ideology has is not prominent in most Satanic organisations.

 Quote:

Have you read the book of coming forth by night? Me either..but the general premise is that Set is real, out there, and alive on some level. A shared rally point, just like any other deity is to any other religion. I don't think comparing that org to Satanism is fair in this context. We don't have a shared belief in a cosmic deity.


I have read TBOCFBN (underwhelming I might say). And you are wrong about the common rallying point. Not all Setians are required to believe in Set as a deity. Degrees 1 and 2 have no such requirement. Furthermore there exists or existed a Pylon or Order within the ToS which when you read the introductionary statement seemed to deny a litteral existence of Set. I tried to find the info on which one it was but I couldnt find it at the moment. However the point is that it contained IV degree members. The official position of the ToS seems to be alternative one though.

 Quote:

You'll excuse me if I point out this as mumbo jumbo. What the hell is a satanic wave? Do I need a surf board?


Its called a metaphor. I actually used a metaphor involving a wave and a surfing Satanist once in regards to a debate on determinism contra free will ;\)

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#40608 - 07/21/10 10:32 AM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: TheInsane]
Morgan Offline
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"like a school of sorts. A place to learn new things that might be adaptable in ones own strife for wisdom..."

There should never be a school for teaching someone how to be a Satanist. Either one does the looking, studying, and researching on their own or they are being spoon fed. If one is spoon fed or handed information or items, they never appreciate the value of it because it was free and they didn't have to work for it. It may also not be for them. You can't teach a pig to dance, all it does is annoy the pig and gets you covered in shit.

This place, has tons of information. Lots of shared knowledge, ideas, wisdom as well as folly. The main thing is, you have to work for it. You have to read, and study, and actually do something to improve yourself.

The only wave of sorts of I see is whether Satanism is trendy or not at the moment. A few years ago it hit a trendy peak because I was able to buy a pretty pink shirt with the word SATAN in bold letters on the front of it in a higher end middle class clothing store. Now its an emo wave happening, and Satanism isn't so trendy.

Side note, maybe think about translating your paper into English and posting it in it's own thread?

Morgan
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#40619 - 07/21/10 03:20 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: Morgan]
TheInsane Offline
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Registered: 09/16/09
Posts: 356
I was never specified school as a place where you become spoon fed. Just because you seek information and resources from other people does not mean that you do nothing yourself. It still involves hard work, study, discipline etc.

From my experiences in the university it is one thing to be interested in a subject and a whole different thing to actually study it full time. So many new doors, new possibilities and new interpretations open up to you when you are around people that are knowledgeable or hungry for learning. And everyone works hard to attain their goals which also helped me push myself just that bit further to attain the top grades. You can do much on your own but to actually be in contact with – and maybe work with – other people is invaluable if you want to broaden your perspective.

And I never said it would be a school on “how to become a Satanist”. It would be a way to deepen you knowledge, broaden you horizons, learn about history of concepts etc. Even if a person reads about Satanism and thinks he or she is a Satanist it doesn’t mean he or she knows it all because of it. A perfectly working Satanic organization to me would be one where people got together to learn from each other in a way so that their own goals might get closer to reach. And if one prefers working alone then one doesn’t have to join obviously. I have personally for example never belonged to a Satanic organization.

 Quote:

Side note, maybe think about translating your paper into English and posting it in it's own thread?


It is actually close to 80 pages long which is far to long to post on the forum and it would take to long for me to properly translate it. Sorry about that \:\/

Btw, feel free to comment on the thread I created n my personal ideology. It was, after all, because of your earlier enquiry I decided to post it.

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#40622 - 07/21/10 04:43 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: TheInsane]
Dan_Dread Offline
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 Originally Posted By: TheInsane

And I never said it would be a school on “how to become a Satanist”. It would be a way to deepen you knowledge, broaden you horizons, learn about history of concepts etc. Even if a person reads about Satanism and thinks he or she is a Satanist it doesn’t mean he or she knows it all because of it. A perfectly working Satanic organization to me would be one where people got together to learn from each other in a way so that their own goals might get closer to reach. And if one prefers working alone then one doesn’t have to join obviously. I have personally for example never belonged to a Satanic organization.

You are describing this forum. The LHP in general and Satanism in specific are scarcely travelled. It is simply not tenable to gather in person, so a digital medium is the only workable model for an ongoing freeflow and exchange of ideas. Since this already exists(here we are) I am unsure what shortcomings you are perceiving in Satanism as a whole, in regards to it 'stagnating'. Stagnating how? What exactly do you think needs doing, and what action are YOU taking to get it done?
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#40623 - 07/21/10 05:04 PM Re: Now that we're organized, what next? [Re: Dan_Dread]
TheInsane Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread

You are describing this forum. The LHP in general and Satanism in specific are scarcely travelled. It is simply not tenable to gather in person, so a digital medium is the only workable model for an ongoing freeflow and exchange of ideas. Since this already exists(here we are) I am unsure what shortcomings you are perceiving in Satanism as a whole, in regards to it 'stagnating'. Stagnating how? What exactly do you think needs doing, and what action are YOU taking to get it done?


I believe you may be right about the amount of Satanists and how a digital medium may be the ideal thing right now except for local groups that may be able to do something in "the real world" as well so to speak.

The shortcomings I perceive has to do with the amount of research and development and knowledge of history that is available in the Satanic milieu (especially in written form by self-professed Satanists). I know you don't agree with me on this and we've been over it before but I would love more in depth studies, interpretations, ideas and more to be brought into the light. I thrive on reading that kind of stuff and I think Satanists, and thus Satanism itself, would gain positives from it.

I already answered what I have done and that is to study Satanism at the university and make the work available for the public if they wish to read it. I haven’t done anything as far as organizing anything though for a couple of reasons. (1) I am not much interested in organizational activities when it comes to my beliefs and (2) I am not interested in being open to anyone with who I am and what I believe. I did that for a while, but grew tired of it and while it taught me some good lessons I don’t need to take the same class again ;\)


Edited by TheInsane (07/21/10 05:09 PM)

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