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#44040 - 11/07/10 08:12 PM Re: I get to watch somebody being put to death! [Re: Morgan]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: Morgan
Which raises a question, why is watching someone die not thought of as sick and gruesome anymore?

My belief is we are living in more and more of a fantasy world not less. Most of these kids have died so many times in video games they think they will simply respawn and have lost touch with reality. This is pitiful in a time when information is at your fingertips in your living room.

Look at those who after the movie Avatar talked about killing themselves in hopes of being reborn in a world like the movie. The basis of reality is being lost. If TV really does rot your brain perhaps the computer liquefies it even faster.

I’m done trying to understand the lessers around me. Unless it amuses me it is really just a waste of time.

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#44043 - 11/08/10 03:43 AM Re: I get to watch somebody being put to death! [Re: Morgan]
Harvey Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 39
Hello Morgan

I have no objection to war. Business is business. I merely intended to highlight certain assumptions re: Iraq, Afghanistan and old mate Saddam.

Lethal Injection procedures vary by state, but Wiki (Excuse the source - I am pressed for time) suggests that:

 Quote:
Typically a technician trained in venipuncture inserts the needle, while a second technician, who is usually a member of the prison staff, orders, prepares, and loads the drugs into the lethal injection syringes.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethal_injection

And from Emmet vs. Johnson:

 Quote:
The IV team receives training in the insertion and maintenance of IV lines from a physician licensed to practice medicine by the Virginia Board of Medicine.   At least two members of the IV team must “have received training as military corpsmen, cardiac emergency technicians, or should receive on-the-job training from a physician in receiving and dispensing medications, to include starting and administering IV fluids.”


http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-4th-circuit/1398326.html

I am a tremendous fan of Boston Legal. The episodes "Death Be Not Proud" and "Kill, Baby, Kill" are quite relevant here.

 Quote:
Which raises a question, why is watching someone die not thought of as sick and gruesome anymore?


Voyeurism. Big Brother, online stalking. It's so mainstream nowadays.

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#44057 - 11/09/10 02:43 PM Re: I get to watch somebody being put to death! [Re: ta2zz]
Knievel74 Offline
member


Registered: 05/18/10
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
 Originally Posted By: ta2zz[/quote

My belief is we are living in more and more of a fantasy world not less. Most of these kids have died so many times in video games they think they will simply respawn and have lost touch with reality. This is pitiful in a time when information is at your fingertips in your living room.

Look at those who after the movie Avatar talked about killing themselves in hopes of being reborn in a world like the movie. The basis of reality is being lost. If TV really does rot your brain perhaps the computer liquefies it even faster.


Just to go off topic for a minute:

The concept of having a better life when you die has been around for literally thousands of years. Blaming it on video games or movies is just modern conservative BS. It reminds me of the time in the '80's when kids were killing themselves and parents were blaming it on heavy metal music. The entertaiment industry has always been used as a scapegoat for the problems in society because people don't want to take responsibility for their own actions.

The idea of suicide is already in a person's head regardless of what they're exposed to. They could read the ingredients in a Crackerjack box and have thoughts of suicide. My point of view is, if someone wants to kill themselves; Good. Fuck 'em. I don't lose any sleep over it.

*On a side note: Television and the internet are two of the best inventions of the 20th century.

Ok. Sorry about the rant.

Back on topic \:\)
_________________________
"Man was meant to live, not just to exist". - Evel Knievel

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#44058 - 11/09/10 02:48 PM Re: I get to watch somebody being put to death! [Re: Harvey]
Babylonian Dream Offline
stranger


Registered: 11/07/09
Posts: 43
Loc: Upstate New York
The death penalty is a little light. They should work in prison to pay for their stay there, to compensate the victims/families of victims, and any extra money from their work can be used to help law enforcement if there is any.
_________________________
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself" Sagan

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#44068 - 11/10/10 01:56 PM Re: I get to watch somebody being put to death! [Re: Knievel74]
ta2zz Offline
veteran member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 1552
Loc: Connecticut

 Originally Posted By: Knievel74
The concept of having a better life when you die has been around for literally thousands of years.

I am aware of this thank you. The concept of a better life after death has been the basis of many religions as it is a great control for the slave population as well.

I was talking about this ease of seeing death. I never put blame totally on video games specifically I only brought it up as an example. We humans only have to look at our own childhoods to see that we love fantasy. We only need look around us to see some cannot lose this world of make believe and see reality.

 Originally Posted By: Knievel74
Blaming it on video games or movies is just modern conservative BS.

Movies and video games do not cause violence but they have exposed us all too many different forms in a way never before in human history. In rome when you went to a good Christian lion feeding while you saw the violence you also saw the reality of the Christian in pieces not ever getting back up. Video games with their respawn as I have mentioned have contributed to the fantasy of death not being that big of a deal. I also sure seeing an actor die on screen to only come back as a different character in another movie adds to this equation.

 Originally Posted By: Knievel74
It reminds me of the time in the '80's when kids were killing themselves and parents were blaming it on heavy metal music. The entertaiment industry has always been used as a scapegoat for the problems in society because people don't want to take responsibility for their own actions.

Parents looking to point a finger at anything but their own bad parenting is nothing but typical human nature. Again my finger is firmly pointed at humanity and human nature, but modern technology increasing this belief of fantasy or inability to let fantasy go is not getting a free ride from me.

 Originally Posted By: Knievel74
My point of view is, if someone wants to kill themselves; Good. Fuck 'em. I don't lose any sleep over it.

Mmm no sweat off my balls either.

 Originally Posted By: Knievel74
*On a side note: Television and the internet are two of the best inventions of the 20th century.

This doesn’t change the fact that we are still living through the impact such things have made on society and as such we still do not truly understand the impact of it all.

Life is one big lesson till you die.

And the save to stay on topic:
Perhaps public executions would bring back some of the reality of death to the young-ins. A bloody body left after death by firing squad or a hung man turning grey and purple. Things that happen on TV are to easily grouped with fantasy.

Hell even lethal injection is too easy, like putting your dog to sleep.

Remember its not if you win or lose, its all how many people you have touched and changed along the way.

Peace

~T~
_________________________
We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams. ~Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

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#44156 - 11/17/10 02:35 PM Re: I get to watch somebody being put to death! [Re: ta2zz]
Knievel74 Offline
member


Registered: 05/18/10
Posts: 147
Loc: NY
 Originally Posted By: ta2zz
We only need look around us to see some cannot lose this world of make believe and see reality.


Ok. I agree that some people live in a fantasy world. But where's your proof that it's a result of television or video games?

 Originally Posted By: ta2zz
Video games with their respawn as I have mentioned have contributed to the fantasy of death not being that big of a deal. I also sure seeing an actor die on screen to only come back as a different character in another movie adds to this equation.


Again, where's your proof? Movies have been around for roughly 100 years. TV for around 60 and video games for 30. I've never read evidence of actors or digital characters who've died and have come back as a new character change the way society looks at death. Remember, before the invention of video games and television, there were stage plays. And before that, the ballet and opera, where characters died all the time and came back at the end of the performance to take their bows.


 Originally Posted By: ta2zz
but modern technology increasing this belief of fantasy or inability to let fantasy go is not getting a free ride from me.


Ok. But again, can you provide hard evidence that modern technology is to blame for the increase of not letting go of fantasy? Just because the world of fantasy is at our fingertips doesn't prove that society takes death less seriously.


 Originally Posted By: ta2zz
This doesn’t change the fact that we are still living through the impact such things have made on society and as such we still do not truly understand the impact of it all.


Really? TV has been around for roughly 60 years and we still don't understand the impact of it?

 Originally Posted By: ta2zz
Things that happen on TV are to easily grouped with fantasy.


All of the claims you've made so far in regards to the internet or tv having an impact on the way society views death and fantasy are completely unsubstantial.
_________________________
"Man was meant to live, not just to exist". - Evel Knievel

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#44278 - 11/20/10 02:11 PM Re: I get to watch somebody being put to death! [Re: Knievel74]
Dutch Satanist Offline
pledge


Registered: 10/19/10
Posts: 69
Loc: Delft, The Netherlands
Only deranged and mentally insane people actually act out in real life what they see in video games, film or TV. Luckily enough, such deranged and metally ill individuals are more the exception than the norm. Sane people (and that includes children) know the difference between fantasy/fiction and reality.

Penn and Teller once demonstrated this in a "Bullshit!" episode about "violent" video games. They let a 10-year old who loved to play violent video games fire a real rifle. The kid did not turn into a violent killer. Funnily enough, he cried because he was startled by the recoil and the noise. And guess what, that kid knew firing a real rifle would be different than firing weapons in Halo before he got to fire the real thing.

Which gets me to another funny dichotomy I tend to see in places like the U.S. of A. Somehow, violence on TV is okay, but a naked breast will corrupt the minds of the children... Funny, that.
_________________________
“There is a beast in man that needs to be excersised, not exorcised.”

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#50242 - 03/01/11 06:41 AM Re: I get to watch somebody being put to death! [Re: fakepropht]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
The death penalty is one of the things in this world that disgust me the most. Why? because it's cowardly and just has a filthy weakness about the whole thing. If somebody attacks you or your family the revenge ought to be down to those involved, a bestial beheading from mob justice is not good enough, that's stealing the revenge too. It has to be personal revenge. Not done in some flaccid manner by some solemn eyed stranger pulling a lever thinking he's humane.

Say if my brother was murdered and some strange people of the law executed the perpetrator and stole my revenge, I'd live my whole life shamed and enraged, I'd either have to mutilate the perpetrators body in front of his family/ police or I'd have to at least make the perpetrators family's lives a life of terror and abuse for compensatory satisfaction so I could wake up in the morning with motivation.

You know what I'm saying , it's natural. The law is something that cowards hide behind. Take the laws away and watch all the petty criminals hide in their homes because they can't push their luck. If a man robs an old lady he'll get a year in jail (if he gets caught). Make it legal to curb stomp a mugger. If his mates are on to him about what he did, they ought to drag him out in the street and curb stomp him. The law prevents natural honour and justice. See my logic?


Edited by Hegesias (03/01/11 06:45 AM)
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#50244 - 03/01/11 07:42 AM Re: I get to watch somebody being put to death! [Re: Hegesias]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: Hegesias
It has to be personal revenge. Not done in some flaccid manner by some solemn eyed stranger pulling a lever thinking he's humane.


The humaneness (or lack thereof) is a separate issue - the greater point is that the stranger is an agent of the state and the law.

 Originally Posted By: Hegesias
Say if my brother was murdered and some strange people of the law executed the perpetrator and stole my revenge, I'd live my whole life shamed and enraged, I'd either have to mutilate the perpetrators body in front of his family/ police or I'd have to at least make the perpetrators family's lives a life of terror and abuse for compensatory satisfaction so I could wake up in the morning with motivation.


This is the whole motivation behind the concept of "an eye for an eye" - restraint to equal justice. If it's OK for you to extend the responsibility of the actions of that perpetrator to his family, why, then they can do the same towards your family, yes?

"An eye for an eye" means the punishment should fit the crime - excess revenge is bad for society.

 Originally Posted By: Hegesias
Take the laws away and watch all the petty criminals hide in their homes because they can't push their luck.


No, take the laws away and you don't get "homes" - a good portion of society and civilization goes away without laws.

 Originally Posted By: Hegesias
If a man robs an old lady he'll get a year in jail (if he gets caught). Make it legal to curb stomp a mugger. If his mates are on to him about what he did, they ought to drag him out in the street and curb stomp him. The law prevents natural honour and justice. See my logic?


I think your logic is flawed, though I appreciate the desire behind it. If you make it legal to curb-stomp a mugger, allowing people to take the law into their own hands, then the law becomes subjective, and subject to personal whim. Gangs would immediately seize control, there being no deterrent and no consequences - all victims would just be claimed to have been mugging someone.

Now you might argue this is desirable, but that's a different topic. The main point is that you cannot make a fundamental change in a system without fundamentally changing the way that system operates.

Civilization currently defines the law as objective, with no one above the law, in the interest of the greatest good. (Yes, there are loopholes and inconsistencies, but again that's a different topic.) Since most people benefit from that, most people want that.
_________________________
An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?

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#50250 - 03/01/11 08:28 AM Re: I get to watch somebody being put to death! [Re: Autodidact]
Dan_Dread Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3887
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Autodidact
No, take the laws away and you don't get "homes" - a good portion of society and civilization goes away without laws.


At least, that's what our statist masters want us to think. You should ask Diavolo if his quality of life has fallen off the earth in the last few months. Id wager it hasn't \:\)

 Quote:

Gangs would immediately seize control, there being no deterrent and no consequences

In a society that hasn't been forcibly declawed and the balance of force monopolized by a State entity, sure..but in this hypothetical that entity is removed. In an armed society where people are free to protect themselves , their own, and their communities, not so much. I would wager the 'gang' problem would have no soil in which to take root.

 Quote:

Civilization currently defines the law as objective, with no one above the law, in the interest of the greatest good. (Yes, there are loopholes and inconsistencies, but again that's a different topic.) Since most people benefit from that, most people want that.

Greater good is a slave concept. Another meme to keep you marching in a straight line like a good little worker bee \:\)

It isn't that people want what is effectively no different from a criminal gang to protect our rights and freedoms (as assigned by that very same entity), its that people desire security..and have been trained that the state is the only thing capable of giving it to them. I for one have not drank that particular kool-aid.
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ideological vandal

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#50256 - 03/01/11 11:51 AM Re: I get to watch somebody being put to death! [Re: Dan_Dread]
Diavolo Offline
RIP
stalker


Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
At least, that's what our statist masters want us to think. You should ask Diavolo if his quality of life has fallen off the earth in the last few months. Id wager it hasn't \:\)


Although many think we are without a government, we are not. It just implies that besides those elected and trying to form a government, we also have those who "were" the government still running normal affairs. Anarchy it is not, quite the contrary.

When removing the Law, and all Statist control systems, the one thing we don't remove is Will to Power and this very Will to Power will be able to unleash itself to its full potential; including the short-cut through violence. As such, it will quickly install State and Law again.

Anarchists will be served as dinner, unless they team up, form the to function required hierarchies and seize control in quite the same manner, their opposition does.

Those that remain "pure" anarchists will quickly prove there is free lunch after all. ;\)

D.

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#50271 - 03/01/11 01:34 PM Re: I get to watch somebody being put to death! [Re: Dan_Dread]
Autodidact Offline
member


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 428
 Originally Posted By: Dan_Dread
 Originally Posted By: Autodidact
No, take the laws away and you don't get "homes" - a good portion of society and civilization goes away without laws.


At least, that's what our statist masters want us to think.


That's what most people think, although, to be clear, perhaps I should have said "the current version of modern first-world society and civiliztion ...".

You said yourself "people desire security". In my world, not everyone is an autotheist - most are not. Society is built of "most of them", and they need a framework, even a crappy one.

 Quote:
 Quote:

Gangs would immediately seize control, [...]

[...]In an armed society where people are free to protect themselves , their own, and their communities, not so much. I would wager the 'gang' problem would have no soil in which to take root.


(I'm not sure I'm parsing you correctly. If I understand what you're saying, you're asserting that a well-armed population would continue to function just fine without any laws or government.)

Might makes right. It could work for a little while, but sooner or later someone will take control. The soil is in most human's desire for a stable and secure society - regardless of how it's established - or in their desire to rule over others. We'd see either a reestablishment of a similar society governed by laws, or a despotism, also governed by laws (just not the same laws).


 Quote:
Greater good is a slave concept.


It is, nevertheless, what most people want, and a core concept of the system most of us are part of now.
_________________________
An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?

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#50292 - 03/01/11 08:18 PM Re: I get to watch somebody being put to death! [Re: Autodidact]
Hegesias Offline
active member


Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 725
 Originally Posted By: Autodidact
 Originally Posted By: Hegesias
It has to be personal revenge. Not done in some flaccid manner by some solemn eyed stranger pulling a lever thinking he's humane.


The humaneness (or lack thereof) is a separate issue - the greater point is that the stranger is an agent of the state and the law.

 Originally Posted By: Hegesias
Say if my brother was murdered and some strange people of the law executed the perpetrator and stole my revenge, I'd live my whole life shamed and enraged, I'd either have to mutilate the perpetrators body in front of his family/ police or I'd have to at least make the perpetrators family's lives a life of terror and abuse for compensatory satisfaction so I could wake up in the morning with motivation.


This is the whole motivation behind the concept of "an eye for an eye" - restraint to equal justice. If it's OK for you to extend the responsibility of the actions of that perpetrator to his family, why, then they can do the same towards your family, yes?

"An eye for an eye" means the punishment should fit the crime - excess revenge is bad for society.

 Originally Posted By: Hegesias
Take the laws away and watch all the petty criminals hide in their homes because they can't push their luck.


No, take the laws away and you don't get "homes" - a good portion of society and civilization goes away without laws.

 Originally Posted By: Hegesias
If a man robs an old lady he'll get a year in jail (if he gets caught). Make it legal to curb stomp a mugger. If his mates are on to him about what he did, they ought to drag him out in the street and curb stomp him. The law prevents natural honour and justice. See my logic?


I think your logic is flawed, though I appreciate the desire behind it. If you make it legal to curb-stomp a mugger, allowing people to take the law into their own hands, then the law becomes subjective, and subject to personal whim. Gangs would immediately seize control, there being no deterrent and no consequences - all victims would just be claimed to have been mugging someone.

Now you might argue this is desirable, but that's a different topic. The main point is that you cannot make a fundamental change in a system without fundamentally changing the way that system operates.

Civilization currently defines the law as objective, with no one above the law, in the interest of the greatest good. (Yes, there are loopholes and inconsistencies, but again that's a different topic.) Since most people benefit from that, most people want that.



Yea I wouldn't really kill the whole family to get revenge, I just get a lot of adrenaline and have the drive to do a lot of damage to one person and literally anything that's an obstacle is just that, an obstacle in the way of my target. I didn't mean what I said about doing the whole family (unless they are involved of course), I just become ruthless, black state of mind and heart. However my more civil viewpoint, whatever, is below.

My logic is flawed because Nature is disorder and man's nature is simply part of this broken rhythm, dynamic and not any rigid form of stasis to do with a comforting society. There is no ethos or moral code except nature, a wolf is noble, a lion is noble, a man is noble, the unnatural who are distanced from nature and their instincts are inherently weak and have no natural drives. What does this mean? Well the dregs/ vermin will be defined by their deeds and behaviours, who lacks empathy and the naturalistic altruism to protect women and children is a dreg which nature has turned her face from and forsaken.

They ought to be ripped to pieces for invading the pack/ tribe. The weak and strong are constantly something in flux depending on the circumstance, if you think you are always ultimately strong this is ego and something illusory. Rather we ought to realise that nature applies to man and man ought to be as cruel as nature. Do you see a pack of wolves being tolerant and moderate towards an invader in eye for an eye mentality? Honourable dualing is something different and I'm all up for a noble fist fight but we don't live in those times, we have twitchy vermin running around with blades. I simply wear steel toe boots and reckon a good solid kicking is enough, plus I just like this look.

The unnatural dregs which use unnatural systems to confine us and limit us are making it ideal for those like them in society to prosper in pathetic and petty gain, leeching of others and doing depraved things only getting rewarded by a jail sentence safe away from revenge. A Classical European society would be idyllic where honourable people could prosper.

I may be misanthropic but I see the majority of people are natural with natural feelings and motivations, even if they may be composed of some physically weak individuals like females, together they can still combine to fuck up some unnatural dregs of nature like women abusers or child killers. The males in a community ought to bond together and smash the fuck out of those packs of petty opportunists, go raiding child abusers and hang them in the streets, and all sorts of scum which hide behind the over protective law. Whatever happened to the right to issue a challenge by honourable duelling with deadly weapons all legal with no prison term?

It's built into us to feel the urge to destroy that which is unnatural. Unnatural meaning weak, weak meaning faulty, depraved, that with low male drives, lack of empathy, you know, the shit people who do depraved things to their women and kids behind closed doors and you know who they are you just can't do anything about it because the law calls it a domestic dispute. Then you get adverts on the internet saying 'give us your money so we can stop child/ women abuse', Fuck that, give me a hammer and a few mins with the vermin. But that's illegal isn't it.

Eye for an eye is bollocks, destroy the scum I say. If you are noble in nature then you will respect your own species, care and protect women and children, and really only disagree over who gets the prey, the scum, the dirty fucks who hide behind society. If you want to be a twitchy druggie or other vermin that's fine by me just don't make eye contact or try and talk to me.

Although none of this will be employed into society, this is how I personally work. My whole family is respectful.

Only the noble/ natural will inherit the Earth, let the cast away scraps of society be destroyed. Defiance is a sign of strength, and strength is our human nature this is why we are individuals and not religious slaves nor slaves to societal peer pressure etc. Agriculture and the materialistic paradigm of western culture is the result of us no longer living in a nomadic tribal society. A Classical European or Nationalist society would be idyllic. People in close knit communities working like a harmonious entity, any foreign viruses would be flushed out my the natural immune system.

I will remain in my castle and watch the world crumble. I only emerge to greet likened fellows and noble females.
If people can't think for themselves and see the double meanings in my posts then this is evident that you don't have the feel for what's behind the writing.
_________________________


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#51134 - 03/17/11 12:17 AM Re: I get to watch somebody being put to death! [Re: fakepropht]
bremloc Offline
stranger


Registered: 03/12/11
Posts: 12
Loc: Ohio
I support the death penalty but not in its current form, I think this should be a much faster and public process. Once someone is convicted and sentenced to death it would happen the following morning via guillotine or hanging...or hell even the good ol' axe. this would probably and unfortunately net some innocent people but it would save tax payers money and might even cull back some of the crimes commited. maybe the local pedophile would think about having his head cut off in the town square before he attacked a child. I support a wide array of candidates for the death penalty : Child murderers/rapists, Murderers (of the non self defense category, which would need proven.), Drug Dealers (Heroin, Meth... the really hard and lethal stuff and they should be killed by their own poisons.) and anyone who gets "life without the possibility of parole" (I mean isn't that just a suspended death sentence.). I also think that if a mother or father has their child taken by the hands of scum they should be given the chance to "pull the switch".
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#51138 - 03/17/11 12:56 AM Re: I get to watch somebody being put to death! [Re: bremloc]
Tesseract Offline
member


Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 190
Loc: United States
Blackstone's formulation: “Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer”.

The law, as with any human endeavor, is far too prone to error, abuse, corruption, and incompetence. In my opinion, death as means of penalty is too great a power to allow The State. The “Innocence Project”, as well as Illinois’ recent ending of capital punishment demonstrate the serious flaws of the death penalty. It’s all-too-easy to clamor for “eye for an eye” justice (at the hands of The State) and swift & brutal punishment -- until it’s someone you care for and value, or even yourself that’s being wrongly accused, convicted, and sentenced to death. It’s a trite assertion, but as with most cliches, there’s a core of truth in the claim that, “where there’s life, there’s hope.” A wrongly convicted individual can at least be eventually acquitted and freed in some instances, particularly as forensic sciences become evermore accurate, but an executed prisoner is dead forever. And I’m not concerned with “saving tax payers money”; the “squares” and the “citizens” can cough up the cash, if it ultimately benefits me or those I care for.

Study after study demonstrates that fear of the death penalty is rarely a deterrent in the minds of serious criminals, or those who commit lethal violence in “the heat of the moment”. But all this aside, I’m not decrying personal vengeance at the hands of one who feels he has been unforgivably wronged, as in the case of another killing his loved one, or invading his home -- I just don’t advocate handing that authority over to the government.

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