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#29662 - 09/16/09 01:26 PM The matter of the 'Will'
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Recently, the matter of 'will' and how it relates to Satanism, and more specifically, it's role with regards to the Satanic magician/practitioner have been surfacing in the chatroom. I feel that this matter is very interesting and pertinent to anyone that takes Satanism seriously, as I do, so here I am creating a venue for an 'on the record' discussion of these matters.

Firstly, what is the will exactly? Defining terms is very important to making any real progress in any sort of discussion, so let me first offer up a definition from http://www.merriam-webster.com.

 Quote:


* Main Entry: will
* Pronunciation: wil
* Function: noun
* Etymology: Middle English, from Old English willa will, desire; akin to Old English wille
* Date: before 12th century

1 : desire, wish: as a : disposition, inclination <where there's a will there's a way> b : appetite, passion c : choice, determination
2 a : something desired; especially : a choice or determination of one having authority or power b (1) archaic : request, command (2) [from the phrase our will is which introduces it] : the part of a summons expressing a royal command
3 : the act, process, or experience of willing : volition
4 a : mental powers manifested as wishing, choosing, desiring, or intending b : a disposition to act according to principles or ends c : the collective desire of a group <the will of the people>
5 : the power of control over one's own actions or emotions <a man of iron will>
6 : a legal declaration of a person's wishes regarding the disposal of his or her property or estate after death; especially : a written instrument legally executed by which a person makes disposition of his or her estate to take effect after death

at will : as one wishes : as or when it pleases or suits oneself


So first let us assume we are discussing 'will' as a noun (something that exists) rather than a verb (something you do). In this context 'will' is left as interchangeable with 'desire', which of course is a key factor in both greater and lesser Satanic magic.

Satanic greater magic utilizes the Will/desire to affect change within our own minds, with the actual act of the ritual itself being the catalyst to affect this internal change. Lesser magic represents a bevy of psychological tricks to enact the machinations of change in accordance with desire. In both cases we are left with the same formula: Will>>action>>>results.

Will then, it could be said, is the force behind 'action', which leads to a change in a given situation. A strong will leads to strong action, which in turn leads to strong results, which is why cultivating the Will should be important to the LHP practitioner. But is it possible to skip the second step of this formula?

Is Will>>results a valid formula?

Our very own esteemed familiar, Fist, presented the 'will to live' as an example of this. It has indeed been documented that some can continue to survive though sheer desire alone when all logic says they should die, while others can die by simply 'letting go' in situations where mortality is not assured. Why?

Can the 'will' alone affect change without action?

Thoughts?
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#29678 - 09/16/09 05:56 PM Re: The matter of the 'Will' [Re: Dan_Dread]
Octavius Offline
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Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 557
Loc: Left the party
As was said in the chatroom, will alone can affect change [i]depending[i/] on the circumstance. Examples from my perspective are purely theoretical, as would everyone's example. Therefore, "will" and its affect is completely subjective depending on the person and circumstance. I have personal experiences where the projection of will alone did indeed affect change (as does Fist in his arguments) but I would qualify this as lesser magic, and thus, not applicable to muggles.

Sorry.

Octavius
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#29681 - 09/16/09 06:26 PM Re: The matter of the 'Will' [Re: Dan_Dread]
Caladrius Offline
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Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 318
Loc: SoCal
IMO: We are the product of will. We just don't notice it because we've become so used to it. The movement of our physical/causal muscles/body is the "aftermath/manifestation" of the applied "acausal" "force" of Will. Without that initial will (whatever it is) that muscle does not move.

If you practice hard enough, with will power alone, you can make one hand hot and one hand cold.

As far as will alone having any measurable affect on the world of phenomena, I have only personally experienced those times when coincidental events and "happenstancial" situations were encounter very often, which resonated with something I was thinking about, desiring, or "willing."

But I could be wrong and delusional.
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#29694 - 09/17/09 02:42 AM Re: The matter of the 'Will' [Re: Caladrius]
Diavolo Offline
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 4997
The spirit of Shaolin monks is well documented when it comes to endure pain or block it out. In this case we can see spirit as Will. Some are even able to control their body temperature and survive extreme conditions due to that.

The same has been tested with some members of elite combat forces, like the Navy Seals and the subjects also managed to survive extreme cold conditions which would trigger physical destruction in others. Not to forget Lewis Pugh who swam at the North Pole recently and managed to stay in the water for twenty minutes where others would probably not have survived five.

In this respect, the placebo and nocebo effect also come to mind.

I personally have toyed with Will/desire and acausality (that is, change in reality without manipulating physically) and had rather good results. Now mind you, I'm my worst critic and have no problem explaining it in probabilities, confirmation bias or coincidences, but even when using those explanations, the fact remains that it did appear to have results.

Of course it isn't as simplistic as wishing someone to die or win the lottery, although it is amusing to joke or ponder upon these ideas.

I'm of the opinion that to a person, reality is subjective and partly consciousness-driven and in that, to a degree controllable by Will. Reality isn't always identical to a person, even when he doesn't suffer serious mental conditions. Simple things like moods can already give a distorted view at times.

D.

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#29713 - 09/17/09 01:47 PM Re: The matter of the 'Will' [Re: Diavolo]
Dan_Dread Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 3810
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Very interesting replies, this thread is shaping up nicely.

First things first. Internal vs external:

Through the power of the mind/Will/desire (if there is even any difference in this context) internal changes can take place, I think we are all in agreement with this so far. People can endure incredible amounts of pain, perform incredible feats of strength or even prolong death (to a point). This sort of thing can be seen as internal. But does this really qualify as 'Will>>results'?

These things could be interpreted as direct brain/body communication, in which the 'action' is still being taken.Only instead of the external body taking this action, it is instead the mechanisms of the brain bubbling chemicals and zapping electricity to all the right places. Viewed this way,in the example of the grievously injured man staying alive against all costs, he is causing his brain to not shut down, somehow affecting direct control over something that is outside of his conscious mind. However, there is more than one way to interpret this. One way, as described above is direct causality and materialism(will>>action>>results):

Will(to live)>>action(brain does not indicate 'shutdown')>>result(holy shit how is he still alive?!)
In this case the Will does NOT directly cause an event (No acausality)

But my second interpretation, which I find much more interesting because it does not necessarily conform to cut and dried material logic(insofar as it relates to human action and the Will;ie Will>>results) is as follows:

Will(to live)>>result(brain does not send shutdown signal).(possible acausality)

I find this interesting because it indicates the possibility of affecting a level of direct control over ourselves that is much greater than commonly accepted, sheerly through the power of the mind.

Regardless of the truth of either of these two interpretations,it seems to be evident that strong Will, directly or indirectly, can and does affect internal change. To what degree seems to vary greatly from person to person; Some can quit smoking like it's nothing, while others, whining about how much they want to quit, simply cannot muster enough 'desire' to get the job done. Some people can eat healthy and maintain a strict workout regimen, while others cry about their fat ass while eating a bag of chips on their sofa. On the other end of the scale some can smile through a grievous wound while others cry at a pinch.

Through desire and belief, focused and honed, much can be accomplished..on an internal level. This to me is the core and essence of Satanic ritual magic. Using honed belief and desire as a tool for internal change.

But what of the external? Does anyone believe that it is possible to affect reality directly externally, that is, outside of your own body, through the sheer power of Will/Desire? Can a curse cause someone to die? If so, in a coherent ,non mystical/cryptic/elusive manner, and with as much detail as possible, I would absolutely love to hear about it.

Personally I am leaning against the truth of this idea, but only because I have not as of yet seen a convincing argument otherwise. Although I have performed many rituals over the years, none for me have yielded 'external' results that were not a direct result of whatever internal change my ritual had caused. (at least none that couldn't be more easily explained though logic and reason)

What say you?
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#29716 - 09/17/09 02:42 PM Re: The matter of the 'Will' [Re: Dan_Dread]
Caladrius Offline
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Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 318
Loc: SoCal
"direct body/brain communication" as you state is quite correct. It's like saying there is a "direct remote control/television set communication" which is very true... to a certain point... until we ask ourself: what is the Factor which Initiates the remote control to fire it's signals?

In regards to the brain/body concept, what is the Initiator which fires off the appropriate neurons to move a part of the body it desires to move? Are we to assume that each neuron themselves are consciously aware of their specialized role in the body and to what body part they are connected too?

IMO, I believe Diavolo's Shen/Spirit- that ghost in the machine - or will/mind is the unseen - immeasurable Initiator. This is just speculation though.


Edited by Caladrius (09/17/09 02:47 PM)
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#30417 - 10/10/09 10:43 AM Re: The matter of the 'Will' [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Miss May Offline
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Registered: 09/27/09
Posts: 66
Loc: sebastopol, CA
My answer to this question is a sound no. Any denial of "will" in anything that is not an inanimate object is absurd. That's like asking if a piece of paper can make something happen. Well, I'm afraid it can't no matter how much hypothetical will it may or may not possess. A truly strong will does anything it must do to accomplish it's ultimate goal, make any adjustments truly necessary. Animals have almost no problems doing this, except for humans. Humans don't employ their wills to their full extent most of the time because they don't have to.


Edited by Miss May (10/10/09 10:44 AM)

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