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#29685 - 09/16/09 10:20 PM LaVeyan to traditional satanist path
Waxman Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/09/09
Posts: 14
Fellow member Woland asked that I might explain how I personally altered my views of being a Laveyan satanist, to more of a traditional (theistic) satanist. So I'll try to shed a little light on how I've gotten to where I am currently.

Basically, I started out through reading the Satanic Bible, finding that it really spoke to me, and to who I was. Everything (or nearly so) in it made sense with who I was and my personal beliefs. For the most part, it opened the doors to me and got me interested in learning more.

From the Satanic Bible, I then went on to read the other works by Anton LaVey. Many of these also had some interesting points of view and philosophies that fell in line with my way of thinking, and it kept expanding from there. Reading these works obviously lead me to other figures through the past with writings on the basic subject of Satanism and the many different views that people had on the subject.

Then comes the usefulness of the internet age, where nearly every aspect of Satanism can be researched. Obviously many of these websites/sources can be skewed or sketchy, but I found that reviewing many of them, a lot contain the same ideals set forth by LaVey, with slight alterations here and there.

From this point, my views started to change slightly as I became more interested in the theistic views of Satanism. Something within this theistic standpoint seemed to speak to me and my personality even more so than that of traditional LaVeyan beliefs...though much of it was the same. Reading through the history of Satanism also lead me in this direction.

Long story short, to me it seems that Satanism has begun to evolve slightly from what was laid out initially by Mr. LaVey. Not that anything he wrote or stood for was wrong, as I still hold many of his beliefs. Basically, every view or philosophy, in my opinion, has a need to evolve at some point or another as it is researched more thoroughly, and after Mr. LaVey laid the groundwork, this research seemed to have exploded in many respects.

So there's the basic idea of how I came to where I stand currently in the Satanism community. As always, with more research and study, my views could very well alter as well, only time will tell in that matter, but for certain, the basic philosophy of Satanism will remain with me throughout.

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#29688 - 09/16/09 11:20 PM Re: LaVeyan to traditional satanist path [Re: Waxman]
Asmedious Moderator Offline
Moderator
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Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 1738
Loc: New York
You didnít explain anything about how you went from the tenants of the Satanic Bible, which is an Atheistic/Humanism type Satanism, to believing that there is an actual deity of some kind representing Satan.

To say that you read books by Mr. LaVey, and then from reading things on the internet, you realized somehow that Satan exists as a real entity is meaningless. It still leaves a very big blank from point A, to point B.

Which Satanic sites convinced you and can you give specific examples? Is there any tangible evidence you can provide that there is an entity which you speak of? Experiences?

Also, if you believe in a living entity that is Satan, then donít you also believe in a living entity that is an opposing god?

Thanks in advance for clearing things up.
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"The first order of government is the protection of its citizens right to be left alone."

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#29689 - 09/16/09 11:46 PM Re: LaVeyan to traditional satanist path [Re: Asmedious]
Waxman Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/09/09
Posts: 14
My main intent with this was to show some of the research that I had performed getting to where I am. In no way is it complete, or even the "correct" way. There are likely many ways that one can go from LaVeyan to theistic I'm sure.

As far as "realizing" that satan is a being, I'm not sure if there is any good way to put that into words for the most part. I read much more than LaVey's works and the internet. Lots of history and other books by various authors along the way.

As far as which websites I read through, I didn't really keep track of all that I browsed...and I can't really give any examples currently because most of that sort of thing is blocked here while I'm at work. I may be able to sift through some of my browsing history at home though when I get the chance.

Basically, I just did various searches on the subject, read those that looked interesting, well thought out, etc. I obviously came across some that were pretty far fetched and ruled out quite a few which I didn't feel were worth the effort of reading all the way through.

Overall, it was just a conglomeration of all these different sources on how I got my current views. Honestly, if someone were to read all that they can about it, not necesarily anything specific, they would have a more "rounded" view of the subject and come to their own opinion.

And with anything of this nature, I'd find it hard to prove that an actual being Satan exists...so that I can't argue with anyone. It's more just a belief that I've chosen for myself that I'd like to pursue. Anything along these lines is more personal preference than anything else in my opinion.

I also mentioned that it's entirely possible that my views could change slightly, just as anyone's can. More research and thought can only be of benefit and lead towards greater understanding.

In no way do I see my beliefs any better than anyone elses. We are all free to choose how we want to understand things, and I'm not here to argue that my belief is any better or worse.

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#29696 - 09/17/09 07:08 AM Re: LaVeyan to traditional satanist path [Re: Waxman]
jesusbeater Offline
pledge


Registered: 11/15/07
Posts: 79
Loc: Ireland
I respect your views and as another poster stated you appear to be able to conduct yourself better than most theistic satanists that have visited the site in the past.I would be interested to know if there was any experience that occurred in your life , similar to a peak experience that made you believe in the existence of Satan or if you have ever felt like you have been in contact with the entity or felt its presence?
When I was younger(much younger) I had several experiences that at the time I could not at the time explain, which did lead me towards a theistic viewpoint.Being a curious kind of guy I explored every possible explaination towards these occurances and after some time came to rationalise the events and acknowledge the power and the endless possibilities of the effect of the mind. Where as I would just consider myself a Satanist, not LaVeyan nor theistic, sometimes I do play with the idea that maybe we over rationalise and scrutinise events too much and perhaps Satan/Lucifer is an actual entity in nature that facilitates human evolution through a primal force that causes certain biological entities to question and evolve.Most of the time however I believe that Satan as an archetype is a tool available to us that promotes the same changes in humanity.
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#29741 - 09/18/09 12:07 AM Re: LaVeyan to traditional satanist path [Re: Waxman]
Final Conflict Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 47
I think what most people would be interested in is what books you read that led you to become convinced that Satan exists as an actual being. As for websites, I would assume you came across Diane Vera's Theistic Satanism website as well as others like the Joy of Satan since those seem to be the most popular.

Others might also be interested as to why you would choose to worship Satan? If you truly believe that Satan exists as an actual being, that's one thing, but why would such a belief necessitate worship?

Why would you or other theistic Satanists assume that Satan, if such a being exists, would demand or require worship?

For myself personally, that's what I'm most interested in knowing. Let's suspend our disbelief for a moment and explore this.

According to the Judeo-Christian tradition, God demands worship. Christians and Muslims believe that Satan was an archangel who rebelled against God and was cast down from heaven.

Christians believe this rebellion occurred because Satan wanted to become equal to God or some variation on that theme. Muslims believe Satan rebelled because he refused to bow down to Adam whom he viewed as an inferior mortal creation.

Now, this all means that Satan is in a lesser position than God, but obviously a greater one than man. But here's the problem: if Satan rebelled against God and represents the opposite of what God represents, why would Satan possibly require or demand any kind of worship?

Wouldn't worship be contrary to Satan's personal ethos?

It's for that reason that in The Satanic Bible, within the context of psychodrama, there is no "worship" of Satan - Satan is evoked as a "brother and friend."

Now, while I obviously disagree with Theistic Satanism and any kind of theism in general, I don't have a problem with those who wish to believe what they wish to believe.

But what I don't understand is how anyone could possibly lower themselves to such a point as to worship something, whether a stone idol or a subjective deity?

The myth of "devil worship" and the myth that Satan requires worship and selling your soul to the Devil and so on is a total creation of the Catholic Church during the medieval period.

Why accept the medieval propaganda of the Catholic Church as truth?

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#29749 - 09/18/09 01:26 AM Re: LaVeyan to traditional satanist path [Re: Final Conflict]
Prometheus9 Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/09/09
Posts: 37
I can see running with the "Satan and Entity" routine as a temporary experiment in bhakti yoga (a la Crowley's Astarte vel Berylli sub figura CLXXV) as you'll probably learn something about perception and creating certain subjective experiences but i don't really get the notion of Satan as an anthropomorphic thing that has a First Name, a Last Name and a street address like my friends or even my pets.

It seems, frankly, mind bogglingly weird especially if you're assuming that your Mr. Satan of [Address Unknown] Street is the same one that circulates in the Religions of the Book(s). If that were the case the deck is clearly stacked against him.


Edited by Woland (09/18/09 01:56 AM)
Edit Reason: Fixed the url.

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#29761 - 09/18/09 03:26 AM Re: LaVeyan to traditional satanist path [Re: Final Conflict]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
According to the Judeo-Christian tradition, God demands worship. Christians and Muslims believe that Satan was an archangel who rebelled against God and was cast down from heaven.

Christians believe this rebellion occurred because Satan wanted to become equal to God or some variation on that theme. Muslims believe Satan rebelled because he refused to bow down to Adam whom he viewed as an inferior mortal creation.

Now, this all means that Satan is in a lesser position than God, but obviously a greater one than man. But here's the problem: if Satan rebelled against God and represents the opposite of what God represents, why would Satan possibly require or demand any kind of worship?

Wouldn't worship be contrary to Satan's personal ethos?


Disclaimer: As per the posters request of "suspending disbelief" I am doing exactly that for my response. I absolutely DO NOT believe in a God, Satan, Flying Spaghetti Monster or any such fantasy.

It would seem to me that Satan would indeed want to be worshipped. Christians believe that Lucifer rebelled because he wanted, as you stated, to be equal with God. That being the case it follows rather easily that he would want worship. Perhaps even demanding even more obedience than God.

Simalarly, the Muslim belief that Satan refused to bow down to Adam because he was an inferior mortal creation leads one to believe that Satan would want worship because of that same reason.

Satan, shown as the prideful entity that it is would no doubt have any problem reconciling its desire for worship with its own refusal to worship another. Think of it like paying bills; you might not like handing over the money but probably have no problem having it given to you. Kind of a weak metaphor I know, but it is the best one I can come up with at the moment.

It does seem, however, that worshiping a figure that represents rebellion is a little pointless.
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No gods. No masters.

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#29763 - 09/18/09 04:05 AM Re: LaVeyan to traditional satanist path [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
Final Conflict Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 47
 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

Disclaimer: As per the posters request of "suspending disbelief" I am doing exactly that for my response. I absolutely DO NOT believe in a God, Satan, Flying Spaghetti Monster or any such fantasy.


I don't blame ya. On that note:

* SANITY MODE: OFF

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

It would seem to me that Satan would indeed want to be worshipped. Christians believe that Lucifer rebelled because he wanted, as you stated, to be equal with God. That being the case it follows rather easily that he would want worship. Perhaps even demanding even more obedience than God.

Simalarly, the Muslim belief that Satan refused to bow down to Adam because he was an inferior mortal creation leads one to believe that Satan would want worship because of that same reason.


These are excellent points. But what you have to keep in mind is that such a conclusion is based upon God's view of things. The Old Testament and Koran were written from his point of view, and of course Satan was not afforded a proper forum to legitimately address his grievances against his Creator and provide his side of the story.

Now, playing Devils Advocate and assuming that the Christian and Koranic view are correct, the natural conclusion would be that Satan would want worship.

However, we would then have to ask, and this is assuming Satan is the opposite of God, who is presented in the Scriptures as being jealous, vengeful and a complete fucking asshole, what would he have to gain from being worshipped by us mere mortals?

What does God gain exactly from such worship? He created the world and the universe and everything in it, and as if that wasn't enough, he wants to be worshipped. But what I don't understand is what does he get out of that other than feeding his own already overinflated ego?

Thus, I would like to believe that Satan, being far more intelligent and representing the opposite of God, would not demand or require worship, since such worship would have no gain for him other than inflating his own ego.

Unless, that is, Satan is just as stupid and simply wants to rule in his own kingdom in Hell and create his own "reverse Heaven," so to speak.

Still, I'd like to believe that Satan didn't rebel for such vain reasons and that perhaps he might actually have mankind's best interests are heart.

 Originally Posted By: 6Satan6Archist6

It does seem, however, that worshiping a figure that represents rebellion is a little pointless.


* SANITY MODE: ON

Well, you've hit the nail on the head there and considering the above, it is clearly obvious that worshipping anything is pointless.

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#29765 - 09/18/09 04:19 AM Re: LaVeyan to traditional satanist path [Re: Final Conflict]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
 Quote:
However, we would then have to ask, and this is assuming Satan is the opposite of God, who is presented in the Scriptures as being jealous, vengeful and a complete fucking asshole, what would he have to gain from being worshipped by us mere mortals?


I don't think anything would be gained, for Satan, only lost from God i.e. the worship of his followers. That usurping of worship would be nothing other than a way for Satan to give God that proverbial "slap in the face".

 Quote:
What does God gain exactly from such worship? He created the world and the universe and everything in it, and as if that wasn't enough, he wants to be worshipped. But what I don't understand is what does he get out of that other than feeding his own already overinflated ego?


I think adding to the already overinflated ego is exactly the desired aim. "Our God is a jealous God". Much like the insecure lover that always needs to be reassured of their attractiveness God requires a pat on the back and an "atta boy" every five minutes so he doesn't go all emo and wipe us out.
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No gods. No masters.

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#29766 - 09/18/09 04:20 AM Re: LaVeyan to traditional satanist path [Re: Final Conflict]
GillesdeRais Offline
member


Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 141
 Quote:
The Old Testament and Koran were written from his point of view


I'm not Wiccan, but I think it might be a tad presumptuous to buy into explaining the predominant world-religions as having their deities as being exclusively male. While it may appear this way in the texts, I'd hope that now that we've begun to realize that the sexes are equal in some ways, enlightened folks might try to realize that some of these texts were also written from 'her' point of view as well.
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Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.

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#29767 - 09/18/09 04:24 AM Re: LaVeyan to traditional satanist path [Re: GillesdeRais]
6Satan6Archist6 Offline
stalker


Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 2509
I think you are over thinking things here. I doubt the favoring of saying "his" over "her" is intentionally meant to be sexist. Just like the term "mankind" isn't meant to be sexist.

It doesn't really matter, but the figures of God and Satan are both presented as masculine in the texts of the respective religions. But if makes you feel better to think of them as hermaphroditic supernatural entities then go for it.
_________________________
No gods. No masters.

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#29769 - 09/18/09 04:44 AM Re: LaVeyan to traditional satanist path [Re: 6Satan6Archist6]
GillesdeRais Offline
member


Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 141
 Quote:
But if makes you feel better to think of them as hermaphroditic supernatural entities then go for it


OK. then that would explain exactly nothing. This world has always been inexorably male-oriented, and will continue to be so in the foreseeable future. It would definitely directly explain why the world is such a peaceful happy place. I'm not saying if gals ruled then we'd be in better circumstances, but there would be great boons to all economies because of all the peaceful shopping that would be done.
_________________________
Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.

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#29773 - 09/18/09 05:27 AM Re: LaVeyan to traditional satanist path [Re: Waxman]
Dimitri Offline
stalker


Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 3142
It is in my view quite weird for a person to say to transcend from LaVeyan Satanism to traditional Satanism (or the other way round) when there only is Satanism.

Satanism is a philosophy which wants the practioner to indulge into the principles of self-betterment with meanwhile keeping an eye on keeping the personal standards up and becomming (or at least trying to become) better then the average human you come across.

It is important to stress out that self-betterment is THE keyword describing the philosophy. Theistic, agnostic, deistic, gnostic,... Satanism are but indications of a persons point of view about the concept "god". To become better is to use various "tools" to achieve goals. Believing in a deity for self-betterment [with the belief of the deity in itself being a tool] is still Satanism only if the Satanic principles are being followed.

The belief in a deity within Satanism is not to be shun upon, at least when it isn't ruling your life completely and clouding your mind when making very important descisions.

It is very important to remember that every religion and it's "magical workings" are but constructs in the brain. The constructs within are the subjects to which the person subjects itself. And depending on the subject one is worshipping, it depends on how the person will react and judge.
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#29779 - 09/18/09 06:44 AM Re: LaVeyan to traditional satanist path [Re: Dimitri]
Woland Moderator Offline
Seasoned
active member


Registered: 08/28/07
Posts: 764
Loc: Oslo, Norway
Dear Friends.

Are we not jumping to conclusions here?
The member Waxman, has tried to convey (unsuccessfully, but what the hell) some insight in his transition.

The collective jumps in on his argument, enthusiastically swinging the hatchet of Judeo/Christian system of belief.
I consider this to be cheap, and lacking in imagination...

Could this simply be a question of spirituality vs. materialism?

I, for one, feels that the hard-core scientific approach to existence and/or reality, (I shit, therefore I am), is belittling and degrading, thus diminishing any potential which might be on offer.

The Waxman has not made it clear if he "worships", or in what shape his possible worship manifests itself.
How does one define worship?
(And please refrain from throwing Merriam Webster at me...)

He might, for all we know, simply have chosen to externalize his own godhood for better effect.
Takes all kinds to make a world...

What I am seeing more and more of late is that members in the club are claiming power of definition when it comes to what Satanism is. and what it is not.
That is as unSatanic as it gets (in my opinion).

And; to make matters even worse,,, we are pestered by statements (more or less cleverly disguised) like: Believe what you will, but I think you are a complete asshole!

Dogma is death, dear friends and neighbours...

I would be somewhat happier if members would refrain from assuming that all and any Theistic Satanist will happily offer his/hers arse to be penetrated by freezing cocklike icicles at a regular basis.

P.S.
Hot Damn! Seems like I have gone somewhat Theistic in my old age...
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Regards

Woland

Contra Mundum!

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#29789 - 09/18/09 08:42 AM Re: LaVeyan to traditional satanist path [Re: SkaffenAmtiskaw]
Final Conflict Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 47
 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel

For a Satanist to externalise the Satanic image in a deity of his or her choice could simply be their own method of adding Greater Black Magic to his or her belief system. By imagining a higher being, you are in effect communicating with your own subconscious, and the ideals of that deity will influence you. As such, I believe such faith can be useful.


This is essentially what happens with all Satanists who take part in GBM, within the confines of the ritual chamber as part of the overall psychodrama.

 Originally Posted By: MawhrinSkel

I think requirement number one should be: Can I turn this off if I want to?


The problem is that people who identify as "theistic" Satanists almost always are involved in some form of devil worship of one kind or another.

Woland may have a point regarding the possibility that some may only choose to believe in a literal Satan as a conscious device, but I suspect this is not the case for most. When we look at all the websites out there dedicated to theistic Satanism, it is typically a kind of reverse Christianity or demonolatry.

The Temple of Set is probably the only theistic LHP group which does not "worship" (as far as I know) any kind of deity, nor promotes an anthropomorphic view of Satan/Set, though on this latter point I may be mistaken.

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