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#29812 - 09/18/09 08:15 PM Church of Satan & Temple of Set
Final Conflict Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 47
If mods don't mind, I'm branching out of one my posts from the CoS/ToV thread to a new one since it would be more appropriate since we were no longer discussing anything related to the relationship between the Church of Satan and Temple of the Vampire.

Likewise, the previous thread had veered far off-topic. For background, this new line of debate began here: http://www.the600club.com/topic29756-3.html

 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino
The question of initiatory degree Recognition has always been of particular interest to the Temple since its founding, in part because it was Anton's corruption of the Church's system that brought it down.


Now, my understanding has always been that Dr. LaVey was always very adamantly opposed to the "initiatory degree" system in the style of the Golden Dawn and OTO, and instead intended for the Church of Satan's degree system to be based primarily around real world accomplishments of its members and their ability to live and thrive according to the Satanic ethos.

There is nothing to suggest, whether in Dr. LaVey's own spoken words or in his writings, or from what others (besides yourself) have shared about their experiences in the early years of the Church, that Dr. LaVey intended the Church of Satan to be some sort of occult mystery school along the lines of the OTO.

While the work and philosophy of Aleister Crowley had some influence on Dr. LaVey (though I believe writers tend to overstate the level of this influence), he had nothing but contempt for Crowley, the Golden Dawn, and other "white light" magicians and initiatory schools.

Everything you've shared about the Temple of Set and how it operates (and I've been reading more of your ToS book) suggests that it is worlds apart from the Church of Satan of 1966-1975.

Thus, I find it difficult to accept your argument that the Doctor somehow "corrupted" the Church's system. When did he ever view this system as something "sacred" that could possibly be corrupted?

I have no doubt that in your mind everything about the Church was indeed sacred, but why is it difficult for you to accept that the Doctor did not share your viewpoint? The Church of Satan, from the very beginning, was diametrically opposed to any "white light" belief including the idea that anything can somehow be "sacred."

Furthermore, the essay you enclose in your book to support your allegation that the Doctor had intended to "sell" Church degrees does not support that notion at all. I can see how you interpreted it that way, but nevertheless it doesn't state anything along those lines since there is no stated guarantee that one would be automatically elevated to a higher degree if they contribute materially to the Church.

I can't copy and paste the essay (sent to you by Diane) from the PDF file since it's protected, but if you could post it here (just Dr. LaVey's essay, please - not your responses to him) for others to look at, perhaps we could get some other opinions and see what others think.

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#29813 - 09/18/09 08:49 PM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of Set [Re: Final Conflict]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
I and the other Mods will be keeping an eye on this topic. If all it boils down to is a "he said, she said" thread, it will be locked and participants can relegate their discussion to PM's.

Capeche?
_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

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#29817 - 09/18/09 10:42 PM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of Set [Re: Final Conflict]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2576
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#29825 - 09/19/09 01:48 AM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of Set [Re: Final Conflict]
Prometheus9 Offline
stranger


Registered: 09/09/09
Posts: 37
 Originally Posted By: Final Conflict

Now, my understanding has always been that Dr. LaVey was always very adamantly opposed to the "initiatory degree" system in the style of the Golden Dawn and OTO, and instead intended for the Church of Satan's degree system to be based primarily around real world accomplishments of its members and their ability to live and thrive according to the Satanic ethos.


I think you may be running into conflicting notions of "initiatory."

In the sense of having pre-set mystical topics for digest and repeat combined with rote rituals to confer titles, you are correct, LaVey was uninterested in that meaning of "Initiatory."

In the sense of palpably different levels of understanding of the nature of the self and the world combined with a capacity to apply that understanding for your betterment and influence than no, LaVey was interest in this meaning of "Initiatory."

The difference in approach is the difference between conferring something to someone and confirming something they have already achieved.

This is somewhat specialized but these two different models of "Initiatory' can also be seen in the two main groups operated by Aleister Crowley: the O.T.O (reflecting the first sense) and the A.'.A.'. (ideally representing the later sense). The historic Golden Dawn was something of a mix with the First Order(G.'.D.'.) being representative of the first sense and the Second Order(Rosae Rubeae et Aureae Crucis) reflecting the second sense.

The big monkey wrench circa 1975 was the impression, whether intended or not, created by LaVey to the Priesthood of the time, that he was scrapping the levels of understanding part in favor is using conventional criteria of wealth, access and capacity to better his life personally.

Make any sense?

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#29826 - 09/19/09 01:58 AM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of Set [Re: Michael A.Aquino]
Final Conflict Offline
stranger


Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 47
 Originally Posted By: Michael A.Aquino



Dr. Aquino, I'll take that not-so-subtle flame (unbecoming a man of your education) as an indication that you are unwilling or unable to properly explain the allegations against Dr. LaVey you've been making for years.

The fact is the Temple of Set was founded on the basis of a single theory, having no basis in fact: that Dr. LaVey intended to sell degrees in the Church. Nor has any evidence ever been presented by you to support the allegation that Dr. LaVey shared your views that the CoS was a spiritually "sacred institution" that could somehow be corrupted, a white light view inherently antithetical to the carnal philosophy of Satanism.

The single piece of evidence you present in your book (a draft essay by Dr. LaVey) does not support this allegation. Many people have called you out on this over the years and yet you've evaded the issue.

That's not a problem. You don't have to explain anything you don't wish to explain. Your position is your own. You have a right to it. However, you cannot keep going around posting the same old tired arguments again and again against the pre-Gilmore CoS without expecting some level of legitimate opposition from those who were involved with it during that era.

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#29836 - 09/19/09 01:10 PM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of Set [Re: Prometheus9]
Michael A.Aquino Offline
stalker


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 2576
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
 Originally Posted By: Prometheus9
In the sense of having pre-set mystical topics for digest and repeat combined with rote rituals to confer titles, you are correct, LaVey was uninterested in that meaning of "Initiatory."

In the sense of palpably different levels of understanding of the nature of the self and the world combined with a capacity to apply that understanding for your betterment and influence than no, LaVey was interest in this meaning of "Initiatory."

The difference in approach is the difference between conferring something to someone and confirming something they have already achieved.

This is somewhat specialized but these two different models of "Initiatory' can also be seen in the two main groups operated by Aleister Crowley: the O.T.O (reflecting the first sense) and the A.'.A.'. (ideally representing the later sense). The historic Golden Dawn was something of a mix with the First Order(G.'.D.'.) being representative of the first sense and the Second Order(Rosae Rubeae et Aureae Crucis) reflecting the second sense.

The big monkey wrench circa 1975 was the impression, whether intended or not, created by LaVey to the Priesthood of the time, that he was scrapping the levels of understanding part in favor is using conventional criteria of wealth, access and capacity to better his life personally.

Make any sense?

_________________________
Michael A. Aquino

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#29867 - 09/20/09 10:46 AM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of Set [Re: Final Conflict]
Macumba Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 6
Final, don't forget that Mr Aquino also founded the T.O.S. because he REALLY believed in the Devil, unlike LaVey.
(I agree with him, having met a demon a few years ago)

You also seem to view Crowley as quite a 'white' warlock.
But he viewed himself as the most evil man in the United Kingdom !

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#29875 - 09/20/09 05:09 PM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of Set [Re: Macumba]
Nemesis Offline
senior member


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2175
Loc: US
Macumba, you state the obvious and add virtually nothing to this discussion. Please stay in Satanism 101.
_________________________
Nothing is sacred.

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#29889 - 09/21/09 11:12 AM Re: Church of Satan & Temple of Set [Re: Nemesis]
Macumba Offline
stranger


Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 6
Sorry for being boring, but what do you KNOW about my level ?

Arrogance is a sin !


The member Macumba is hereby officially warned.
Disrespecting Moderators is a bad idea.


Edited by Woland (09/21/09 11:41 AM)
Edit Reason: Warning

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